5.2, part 1: Satan's pre-Christian virgin birth stories

[Hufflewaffle]

The virgin birth is a symbol of the birth of the spirit. The virgin's heart is held as sacred. The heart is the symbol of compassion. Heroes are born from virgins because their deeds are what define them, not their physical being. The christian myth is simply a narrative depicting the journey of the hero from fall to redemption. It expresses the psyche of human beings from the separation of birth to the acknowledgement of, association with, and final sacrifice to, all life.

[Hufflewaffle]

@Hufflewaffle Historical or even religious exclusivity does nothing for anyone except provide a basis for political claims.

[ToddAllenGates]

@Hufflewaffle

1 of 3:

> Historical or even religious exclusivity does nothing for anyone except provide a basis for political claims.

I like Joseph Campbell's summary of this subject in "Myths to Live By" (p. 254):

"In earlier times, when the relevant social unit was the tribe ... it was possible for the local mythology [to see itself] either as the one, the true and sanctified, or at least as the noblest and supreme.

[ToddAllenGates]

2 of 3:

"And it was in those times beneficial to the order of the group that its young should be trained to respond positively to their own system of tribal signals and negatively to all others ... [This system was] good enough for our fathers, in the tight little worlds of the knowledge of their days, when each little civilization was a thing more or less to itself ...

[ToddAllenGates]

3 of 3:

"The difficulty faced today by Christian thinkers in this regard follows from their doctrine of Jesus as the unique historical incarnation of God; and in Judaism, likewise there is the no less troublesome doctrine of a universal God whose eye is on but one Chosen People of all in his created world. The fruit of such ethnocentric historicism is poor spiritual fare today."

[Hufflewaffle]

@ToddAllenGates Thanks. Everything sounds better in Campbell's words.

Unfortunately it seems the Christian thinkers of today (the popular ones at least) don't have the courage to acknowledge these issues let alone deal with them.

[donlaxner]

In a letter from Thomas Jefferson to John Adams on April 11th, 1823.

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Thomas Jefferson

[MercuryRis]

For a god to impregante a human female he would have to have sperm, and that's a DNA pattern, a chromosome, and that DNA would have to indicate 2 parents unless it was a cloning. in the Ancient world women did this all the time, saying a god impregnated them, so their husbands or fathers wouldnt kill them.

[ToddAllenGates]

@MercuryRis

> For a god to impregante a human female he would have to have sperm, and that's a DNA pattern, a chromosome, and that DNA would have to indicate 2 parents unless it was a cloning.

But when it comes to magical gods, *anything* is possible!

> the Ancient world women did this all the time, saying a god impregnated them

Even back then, it seems unlikely that many men would fall for such a line ... but I guess it was worth a try.

[KajiCarson]

Very interesting video. 5 stars!

[ToddAllenGates]

@KajiCarson

> Very interesting video. 5 stars!

Thank you!

[BrutusCass]

Interesting thyankyou for taking the time to make this.

[ToddAllenGates]

> Interesting thank you for taking the time to make this.

Thanks for watching and commenting!

[Naiant]

Good video. You may have made one tiny mistake, though. I'm pretty sure that the story of the virgin conceptions in Zoroastrianism is first found in the Bundahisn, a text which dates from the 9th century CE, so it can't count as pre-Christian.

[ToddAllenGates]

1 of 2:

I'm pretty sure that the story of the virgin conceptions in Zoroastrianism is first found in the Bundahisn, a text which dates from the 9th century CE, so it can't count as pre-Christian.

I confess that I used the secondary source for this info: Robert S. Ellwood and Barbara A. McGraw's book "Many Peoples, Many Faiths." I've been looking online for pre-Christian Zoroastrian source documents about virgin births,

[ToddAllenGates]

2 of 2:

but I haven't been able to find any—ahh, that's a problem with religions that were compiled over some thousand years: it's all too easy to mix up what happened when.

Oh well, I think my main point still stands (Homer & Co. still predate the New Testament), but yes, you're right, I should remove the example of Zoroaster.

[Lohitaksha]

In the Indian poem "Mahabharata", the maiden Kunti, is given a charm by which she can invoke any deity to impregnate her. She tests the charm by invoking the sun god who, having to perform the duty for which he was summoned while still preserving her virginity, spills his seed into one of her ears.

The resultant virgin-born child is then placed in a basket and floated down the Ganga to be found by a charioteer of the king who rears him as his own.

[ToddAllenGates]

Thanks, Lohitaksha -- a "male god impregnates virgin" and "baby in a basket placed on the river" story all in one!

According to Wikipedia, "Mahabharata" was composed over a long period of time - the oldest dating back to the 9th century BC, and the most recent edits completed in the 4th century AD. Would you by any chance know the dating of the Kunti / virgin birth component?

[Lohitaksha]

Some scholars believe the Bhagavad Gita was written first and then the rest of the story was accumulated around it, fore and aft. But I really don't know.

Kunti does get to use the charm again. She ends up marrying a man who is then cursed to die if he ever ejaculates. She has five non-virgin born sons, including twins, by four other deities.

One of the sons, Arjuna, is the one to whom Krishna speaks the Bhagavad Gita, right in the middle of a battlefield.

It all somehow ties in together.

[ToddAllenGates]

> It all somehow ties in together.

I read up a bit more on Mahabharata (albeit only in Wikipedia, so I don't know if that counts), and one scholar is quoted as saying that the original poem must once have carried an "immense tragic force", but the whole text as it now stands is "a horrible chaos."

[grengd]

Just more man made religious piffle. Always the same, any religion any time. Man made !!!

[AbbeyNormal]

To anybody who doesn't already believe, the idea of "plagiarism by anticipation is utterly ridiculous. If two people claim to have written the same song, and one has documentation and the other doesnt- well, its possible the first guy stole the song from the second guy, but then youd have to ask why the first guy took so long to write it down.

[ToddAllenGates]

> "the idea of plagiarism by anticipation is utterly ridiculous"

It's like me claiming that *I* am the true author of "Romeo & Juliet"--Shakespeare just anticipated my great work and plagiarized it!

(What's sad is that when it comes to explaining why the pagans captured tenants of Christianity centuries prior to the New Testament, this "diabolical anticipatory mimicry" is the best explanation that apologists have!)

[AbbeyNormal]

Haha, yes, it's even more ridiculous when the people claiming plagiarism weren't born when the other guys supposedly plagiarized it from them!

[cwieand]

I don't think the argument that there were "hints" of the truth in pre-christian religions is really a "new age" argument. Some of the early church fathers present this argument.

Also while more recent it has been presented by C.S. Lewis not exactly a "new age" thinker.

I suspect that this is the strongest counter argument rather than the pre-plagiarist argument.

[ToddAllenGates]

1 of 2:

> I suspect that [the argument that there were "hints" of the truth in pre-christian religions] is the strongest counter argument rather than the pre-plagiarist argument.

My feeling is that both are so poor that it's hard to say which is worse!

I know that some Christians agree with the "hints" argument and others agree with the pre-plagiarism approach. Most Christians I've talked to have never given this subject any thought . . .

[ToddAllenGates]

2 of 2:

. . . and will agree with whichever argument I present first. Some say both explanations are possible, and others have totally different (but even poorer) approaches.

I feel that from the point of view of Christian *proselytizers*—those who believe you need to convert to their religion, b/c all the others are wrong—the "hints" argument is not firm enough: proselytizers generally don't like to say that rival religions contain *any* "divine" truths.

[hylo1111]

I agree, The Tora acknowledges other Gods, but he stresses Abraham and all of his decendants(Jews)only acknowledge him as there God.I dont see God calling the other Gods false but that he says is more powerful than the other Gods and that these other cultures better not mess with his chosen people.Now if you look at how the Jews culture and beliefs have lasted through thousands of years of persicution...He may just be right. Even the Jews survived persicution from Christians....amazing

[cwieand]

I did not claim either was particularly strong. But the pre-plagiarism defense seems quite rediculous.

[cwieand]

While I would not have made the defense that the "hints" of truth proved anything.

At one time, I would have acknowledged the similarities and argued that God began preparing the way through pagan religion and philosophy.

Still, this argument dates back to the church fathers it is not "new age". Example: Justin Martyr and Origen.

You are correct most Christians don't think about it much.

[ToddAllenGates]

> this argument dates back to the church fathers it is not "new age"

True, it's anachronistic to use the term "New Age," as the idea of "many paths to One Truth" is ancient. But since this ancient idea is embraced by many New Agers, I just used the term for the sake of convenience, and to better contrast the "many paths" idea with the fundamentalist idea that "my religion is right and yours is wrong."

[cwieand]

Okay since you understand it.

[hylo1111]

Cultures have borrowed from each other since "humanity came out of the cave"Judaism borrowed from Egypt, Babylonia, and Cannanites, Christianity from Rome and Greece and Judaism, Muslims from Judaism, Christianity, and anosticism.(if i spelled that rightlol)not the whole picture but you get the idea.

[christigarcia4]

Have you read Genesis 6:1-8?

[ToddAllenGates]

> Have you read Genesis 6:1-8?

Yes!

[narkfly]

around 4:58, you say you somewhat agree with the dissimilarities - that zeus cheating on hera is different from yahweh, because he wasn't cheating on anyone; however in early polytheistic / henotheistic judaism, yahweh had a wife, asherah. so if you told the christian addendum to an early jew, he would most certainly classify it as yahweh cheating on asherah.

[ToddGates]

> if you told the christian addendum to an early jew, he would most certainly classify it as yahweh cheating on asherah

Interesting ... I now have to do some research on Asherah!

[mbturner625]

It doesn't make sense to give satan the god-like qualities of omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. Saying things like "satan planted fake religions in anticipation of jesus's birth" does just that.

[grnmessiah]

You should try talking to a Mormon; they claim that these religions are just break-offs of the original Mormon church (which started with Adam).

Therefore, the Mormon reason for these religions having similarites (Horus born of a virgin and doing most of Jesus' miracles circa 2000 BC) is that they started out as Mormonism, but them apostasized.

[thebloodsoul]

i wonder how much the vote bots are costing the christens.

[IAteYourTV]

so perseus was born after zeus gave his mom a golden shower? awesome!

[SecularMessiah]

One other virgin birth man-god was also a claim of Alexander the Great

[ToddAllenGates]

> One other virgin birth man-god was also a claim of Alexander the Great

I wonder how readily people believed such stories back then ... if people were really that gullible, there probably wasn't as much need for shotgun weddings! (Or sword-weddings, if you will.)

[SecularMessiah]

It would be a nice way to get out of one for a woman, have a one night stand, do a good job of hiding your tracks and say it was devine.

Problem is in Alexander's case he had a father, but legend has it he wouldn't sleep with Alexanders mother because she had an affinity for sleeping with snakes.

Maybe Zeus was an animal guy ;)

[mgbon2]

I know, people will believe ANYTHING these days....

And it's funny how shotgun weddings are mentioned in the bible: If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT

Good job bringing that up, never would have thought of it!

[ToddAllenGates2]

> Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Too bad the violated woman's viewpoint on this law isn't documented.

[mgbon2]

But you have to admit, it's pretty funny that you bring up shotgun wedding, and it's actually in the bible. I couldn't have planned that better!

And yeah, I guess it's just 'too bad' some things aren't in there, it being the word of god and all.

[recruit101]

why cant there be more then one god?

[dglassic]

Are you the guy from "Silence of the Lambs"?

[CognosSquare]

wat?

[dglassic]

good video,

as far as the virgin births, I agree with you that there has been precedence in history before Christ, and like Christians, i think it was the Devil and His angels..I believe a lot of old religions are base on partial truth..read Genesis 6:1-4, it speaks of angelic beings(demons I suppose)bearing children with women..creating giants and men of myth, maybe persius and hercules perhaps.

So, The Christian bible may be the first resource that Chronicles virgin births.

[realistromeo]

perhaps true half gods with great strength,hercules,gilgamesh,di­oisus,ect...

I always thought the greek culture borrowed their myths from an older civilization..either through finding old temples/or idols...and aplying their own stories to them.

[jityr2]

So are there suspicious parallels besides flood stories? Because the narrator of Zeitgeist exaggerated too much.

[ToddAllenGates2]

> So are there suspicious parallels besides flood stories?

Yes--other parallels include stories of babies left floating in the river, divine anger appeased through human sacrifice, resurrecting gods, the afterlife, and a "good" god having a rival "evil" god.

I discuss some of these in my video series numbered 5.3 and 5.4, and will continue with 5.5 (5.6, etc.) in the months ahead. (My numbering system is explained in the description box.)

[zbambam5]

Satan was a very busy being back in the day. Pre-plagiarizing all that over all those thousands of years. He must be a Time Lord.

[vejbok]

satanic mimickery doesnt work. it means that satan can interfere with gods plans and god cant stop him, which in turn means god isnt god.

[ToddAllenGates]

1 of 2:

> satanic mimickery doesnt work.

I agree that it's lame, but what other rationalization can Christian apologists come up with? That the similarities between Jesus' virgin birth story and the virgin birth myths of the Greeks, Romans, & Zoroastrians (all of which pre-date Christianity by centuries) are all just "coincidences?"

[ToddAllenGates]

2 of 2:

The borrowing seems so clear that even most Christians have to admit it. So, weak as this "demonic pre-plagiarization" excuse is, it's the best Christian apologist defense I know of. If you or anyone else reading this comment knows of any better Christian apologist explanation, I'd be interested in hearing it.

[sulimon510]

I've never confronted a christian with this exact conundrum, but when I do confront christians and muslims with questions that they can't logically answer I often get an answer that sounds something like "I understand your point, but I am not eloquent enough to explain my rebuttal."

[jityr2]

I'm gonna say. If the devil pre plagiarized, then either

a) God didn't have the power to stop him,

b) God just let it happen, or

c) maybe god let it happen as a test of faith.

[kangahmtl2n]

its C

[nikkilash]

i beleive that christianity and all other religions are nothing but cults. Believing something based no no factual evidence is just stupid. you no nothing about birth...you are a man. stop preaching no one wants too hear it.

[ToddAllenGates]

> Believing something based no no factual evidence is just stupid. You no nothing about birth...you are a man. stop preaching no one wants too hear it.

My point in this video is that stories of "virgin births" are common in ancient mythology, and Christianity is only one of many religions to include such a tale (and a latecomer in the game at that).

So no, I don't believe that Jehovah impregnated a virgin and any more than I believe similar tales about Zeus or the war god Mars.

[Thrashaero]

to actually think the clergy would seriously try to pass off the ridiculous story of demonic mimickery

that's quite a red flag for anyone.

that's like saying apple made an icon-gui before microsoft so it could charge microsoft in court when microsoft unleashed their similar product later on.

how ridiculously implausible do they have to get before they go 'hmm, i'm sounding like a dumbass'

[kermit900]

Goo god bless you this is really good

[BayerLexan]

In the past being a 'bastard' was seen as a bad thing and a form of social retardation. What better way to counter that then claiming a virgin birth? It makes you seem 'godly' instead of a pariah

[nadiaTeeze]

sounds like a season of angel.

Time portal, that's how :)