Ernie Els Iron Plane

[emncaity]

Actually it looks to me like he's fractionally steep here, if the point is to illustrate some kind of ideal "iron plane." Compare some of the vids (or photos) from his early to mid-20s and you'll see the difference. Could be because on this practice swing his lower body is barely moving, while on a full-effort shot the greater lower-body motion tends to flatten the downswing plane a bit. Check ygmondoux's vid (search for Ernie Els swing, ygmondoux) or cswjohnni for comparison.

[emncaity]

@emncaity

Actually, now that I'm looking at ygmondoux's vid of a young Els again, it reminds me of just how insanely good it really was back then. Not that he's a hack now, but I really do think he could learn something from himself at 24, especially in terms of losing that tendency to overcontrol at the top or to get a little tense in the forearms through impact at times (could be the knee injury affects that). In his very young days, he was absolutely liquid.

[eto121212]

work on your putting ernie

[zkool5]

That is such an easy swing! So slow and fluid.

[bunkerputt]

What's up with that little move he does with his elbows in his finish? He gently settles them down 6 inches or so and it makes it seem like he swung really smoothly. Plus he swung really smoothly which adds to the effect.

[ygmondoux]

He should only work on keeping is tempo flawless... Less technic, more feel... like Goosen.

[rdub1050]

what annoys me about leadbetter is that he doesn't seem to care how a golf swing looks at full motion but rather only how it looks frame to frame. Michelle Wie's swing may be better now frame by frame but she has lost all of her rhythm and grace that she had when she was playing well. Charles Howell even stopped working with him for a while because what he was trying obviously wasn't working. It just seems that for every one player he helps, he hurts about ten others.

[tmousc]

I do think that looking at particular frames is important BUT I agree that he has hurt a lot of golfers. I won't go beyond that just because ... well I could go on for ever.

[emncaity]

Well said. To me, it's the big distinction between types of teachers--the question of how much "positions" should matter. IMHO, there really isn't any such thing as a "position" or a "frame" in a swing; it's all motion. A "position" is an artifice or a fiction that can be helpful, I guess, under certain circumstances. But I see endless numbers of young players who hit a lot of good positions but can't hit it at all--no "swing" to their swings--and others who can hit it but can't score.

[lolbro1]

I fully disagree, Leadbetter was the pioneer of a dynamic golf swing laden with tempo. Look at Faldo, Price, Els,

It is equally important to look at frames to see if something in particular is causing an effect or compensation that would deter someones tempo and rhythm. I know that he always analyes using a soft look on the swing first only then will he check frame by frame to see the root cause.

Many pro s leave other instructors, not just Lead

[emncaity]

@rdub1050

Don't know if you're still monitoring responses, but you're right about this, except for the part about Leadbetter hurting people on a 10-to-1 ratio. Also, I doubt you mean to imply this, but Lead is not solely responsible for this "golf by frames" nonsense. He's highly analytical, at one time had four of the world's top seven players (including #1 and #2), and I think it's fair to say that it's all in how you take his instruction...

[emncaity]

@rdub1050

...Some people did really well with learning positions and frames (Faldo is the prime example), probably because--ironically--they could put it all together as a whole better than others. Faldo was much more of a feel player than people gave him credit for, and so was Hogan, or he couldn't have played a lick with all that breaking down of parts. But you're absolutely right about Wie and Howell, and ultimately I don't think the "frame" thing can be the best way to teach or learn.

[rdub1050]

@emncaity in recent months i've cooled on my Leadbetter criticism. The modern relationship between top teachers and tour players was greatly influenced by his work with Faldo. I agree with your assertion that it depends on the players' interpretation of his instruction. I'm just frustrated by the trend of his students to lose their natural rhythm in preference to the "set it early and quick, get it wide at the top" style. Not saying it's bad advice, I agree with it actually, but players should

[rdub1050]

@emncaity not change the character of their golf swing for the sake of correct positions. That statement is probably why Butch Harmon is the consensus best teacher(just ask him), having worked with great players and making them better without taking away from what they do well. It's easy for me to criticize from home but Leadbetter is a great teacher of the golf swing, although I'd always be hesitant to work with someone that was never a successful player.

[mumisdead]

look at the golf cart in the distance..

[tmousc]

While I agree that Ernie has a good swing, I wouldn't go so far as flawless. Ernie, especially in recent years, has had a lot of swing problems, prompting him to fire David Leadbetter (who caused a lot of those swing problems). Try not to focus on one golfer but what the golfer is doing well. Like Ernie's tempo is far and away better than 99% of tour players out there.

[emncaity]

I know Leadbetter catches a lot of criticism for supposedly ruining people's swings (even though at one time he had something like four of the top seven players in the world coming to him). What specifically do you think Leadbetter advised Els to do that caused his swing problems?

[tmousc]

It's tough to say because I don't know exactly what Leadbetter said to Els. However, a lot of Leadbetter players over the last four or five years have been developing this odd hitch at the top of their swing. Crossing he top too.  I never had seen Els do that until lately. Harmon will take that out pretty fast but I don't know if it is a coincidence that Leadbetter players have the hitch or not.

TMO

[emncaity]

Yeah, interesting. It feels to me like it's too much position-consciousness--like the motion exists only between positions or checkpoints. You get a different feel when you look at a guy like Snead, or Nicklaus, or Tiger. IMHO, you also get a different feeling when you look at Els as a much younger player. There's some kind of self-consciousness and overthinking about positions going on. It's still mostly a great swing, but it seems bogged down, and he hasn't seemed right for a long time.

[tmousc]

I agree with most of that. The only thing is that Els didn't just magically become position conscious. I guess you have to ask yourself who got him position conscious and why those positions. Take a look at a younger Charles Howell v. now. Younger Michelle Wie v. now. Ty Tryon v. now. Etc. All of them are developing that odd hitch. Any thoughts on why Lead is pushing that?

[emncaity]

I didn't mean to imply that Lead didn't play a part in that. What's not clear is whether Leadbetter himself causes that by the way he teaches, or whether players decide they want to "improve their swings" and seek out teachers like Leadbetter who have that "perfect positions" rep. Or maybe it's some of both. There just seems to be a mental move where a swing stops being a means to an end, and starts becoming a self-conscious end in itself, and it may be true that some of the gurus feed that.

[gibsonz222]

tiger has a better swing. but if u havent noticed evry1 that tries to be tiger cant do it. so all the little ones out there should follow ernie els because he has a flowless swing.

[greggg4]

Yeah because everyone has the flexibility and coordination to be able to swing like Ernie. What!? In all honesty Ernie's swing is more physically impressive than Tigers.

[sjs6969]

holy fuck he has a BEAUTIFUL swing.