What Must I Do To Be Saved? ( Q & A Session - 4 of 4 )

[sunnahproduction]

I just killed 2 persons, but Jesus will forgive me cause he created the world then he came and lived and ate good food and died for my sins..

Plz christians come out from the darkness to the true monoteism ie

I S L A M

[apical5view1]

Christians say Jesus is Lord, Christians say Jesus died on the cross. Then that means that God died! Can God Die? Then who ruled the world?

If I commit a crime, the justice system is not going to pluck an innocent man from the streets and say you have to go to Jail because of the crime that guy committed. What kind of Justice is that?

[abacabbabacabb1]

@apical5view1 Jesus is fully God and fully man....the man Jesus died, physically, and was resurrected in a glorified physical body.

You know the story of Abraham and Isaac/Ishmael--how God provided an innocent ram in Isaac's place. Well, this was a HINT at what Jesus was going to do for OUR sake. God loves us so much that he did not sacrifice us for our sins, but rather, He was "manifested in the flesh" and bore our sin for us. This is Love and Justice in true union.

[kotlianz]

Dr Craig is an inteligent man but he does not understand the essence and the beauty of Islam. Alhumdulillah Shabbir Ally done a great job. Ramadan mubarak to all the Muslims.

[DiLxThief]

The really sad thing here is, and i almost feel sorry for u, is that u try to act all arrogant with me, yet u have no leg to stand on. You fail to recognize the filth in the bible, turn a blind eye to it, without even questioning it, yet u are quick to attack the Muslims even though proven there is nothing wrong. Questions you should ask yourself... Are u sincere? Who wrote the Bible? Did the prophets God sent to be a example for mankind really sleep with their daughters and mothers?

[DiLxThief]

So the you have to except the "grace of God"... thats the prerequisite. If u reject the "grace of God" you go to hell-fire lol

[outbackcafe]

With all due respect again Shabir Ally does not understand the bible. At 19.03 he quotes from Philippians 2:12-13 "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose." You do not work for your salvation but work it out, look back and see how God has led you, IE:from this person to that etc

[DiLxThief]

I believe as a Muslim Shabir Ally understands the bible better than most christians, and some Christians would also agree to that fact... there is no doubt Shabir Ally totally leveled all the arguments thrown at him by the respected Dr. Craig.. and there are still many Questions left unanswered by Dr. Craig... Well done Shabir.

[outbackcafe]

@DiLxThief "Shabir Ally understands the bible better than most christians, and some Christians would also agree to that fact." Really? What Christians would agree to that fact? WLC does not know Arabic, Shabir Ally should debate the Christian prince, he is more than willing to debate any Muslim! And he knows Arabic, he reads the Koran from the Arabic not the English version which is not accurate. For not knowing Arabic William Lane Craig did a outstanding job,

[DiLxThief]

I know many Christians who preach the bible who have never come across the verses in the bible talking about incest, or the verses about mens testicles the size of donkey's testicles, Many of the verses Shabir Ally Quoted allot of my Christian friends never herd about, and therefore had to go back and check them... Quite rightly they were shocked at what they found. To be quite frank Dr. William Craig really made mess of this whole debate and anyone watching with a clear heart can see that.

[outbackcafe]

@DiLxThief that is the beauty of the bible it simply reports facts as they happened, but doesn't approve. as far as the adulteress sisters are concerned in Ezekiel chapter 23 this is not real but referring to Samaria and Jerusalem. There is absolutely nothing to be shocked about.

Answer me this, how could you follow a man that had sexual feelings for a tiny little 9 year old girl? So far not one Muslim has ever answered that question. I can also quote many disgusting things in the Koran

[DiLxThief]

YOU say it is not real, are the scholars of the bible lying? go and read the commentary of those verses, NO they are not metaphors, YES it is reality! Just like the fabricated story of Prophet Lot in the bible, How his daughters commit incest by getting their father drunk. How the son of David Absalom rapes his fathers concubines in front of the whole of Israel. How Judah sleeps with Tamar his daughter, how a brother rapes his sister (tamar) all of these and many more! are these all not true?

[outbackcafe]

@DiLxThief "YOU say it is not real, are the scholars of the bible lying? " Even a little child knows the bible uses metaphors, parables and imagery. The two sisters were not real this is very clear. As for Lot, David, Absalom etc. You do know the bible reports facts but does not support? It never says go out and copy. Anyone with half a brain knows that what these people have done is wrong. Would you now like me to open the Koran or even the hadiths? Please just let me know

[DiLxThief]

So God uses the parables of donkeys genitalia and horses seaman in his book? LOL would u let ur child read the chapters of INCEST, RAPE, DONKEYS GENITALS and PORNAGRAPHIC imagery? The scholars of the bible confirm they were real people and not "metaphors" go read the commentary of Ezekiel 23:20. Not to mention the Gospel of porn songs of songs lol. Thing is u have no leg to stand on, u cannot explain these verses and neither can the scholars. FIND ONE AYAT in the Quran Like that.

[DiLxThief]

God is Pure from all filth, he would never allow such filth to be taught and would never allow such pornographic x rated filth to be apart of his book! Go now to ur anti-islamic websites and try and dig up some dirt on Islam if u can... but i warn u now, you'll make a fool of urself because all of these false statements have been dealt with again and again. Ive proven to u, the bible talks about incest, womens vagina's, rape, animals genitals.. i ask u, does this befit a book of God?...

[DiLxThief]

1st of all it was Gods command for the Messenger(saw) to marry Aisha(ra) not the desire of the Prophet(saw). It is a fact that not 1 person objected to this marriage or found it strange, Why? This was the custom 1400 years ago, people would marry at a young age and it still do in European, African and Asian countries, this is exactly why no1 objected, not even from the disbelievers, why? because it was normal. Aisha was not a child either, this is clear from her own accounts of the Marriage...

[outbackcafe]

@DiLxThief "1st of all it was Gods command for the Messenger(saw) to marry Aisha(ra) not the desire of the Prophet(saw). It is a fact that not 1 person objected to this marriage or found it strange, Why? This was the custom 1400 years ago, people would marry at a young age " Allah agreed for little girl to get molested? People did not complain because Mo was violent and were afraid. If Mohammad was really a great man why did he not object or break away from this disgusting and evil custom?

[DiLxThief]

If u fear God, then at least read my comments fully and dont put words in my mouth. I clearly said that from her own Narrations that she was physically AND MENTALLY mature. Aisha narrates she went through her menses, sexually physically her body was ready to reproduce. Therefore no harm could have come to her because her body was now ready for it. This is the reason the Prophet(pbuh) waited 3 years before he took her home, if he didnt care about Aisha, he would have took her at the age of 6.

[DiLxThief]

Now ur true colours are beginning to show. In YOUR eyes shes a little girl, not according to her own statements in the hadith where Aisha says "when a girl reaches 9 years, she becomes a woman" this Testifies to the fact that she had reached physical maturity before she lived with the Messenger(pbuh). The arabs where not afraid of anyone and the amount of wars and assassination attempts on his life is a proof of that. What u cannot fathom is this was a practice of all the people of the world..

[DiLxThief]

Aisha states that her body was going through physical changes, her body was maturing n she went through her menses, meaning her body was ready to reproduce. Aisha herself narrates that she was mentally mature, n she was maturing faster than all of her friends. She further says that she was ready for marriage, these are proven from her own accounts. So according to your own definitions of an Adult in the dictionary, Aisha is clearly not a child, mentally and physically mature she was a lady.

[outbackcafe]

@DiLxThief "Aisha states that her body was going through physical changes, her body was maturing n she went through her menses, meaning her body was ready to reproduce.

"Brother i will be as polite as i can but you simply are not going to win this debate, according to you 'older enough to bleed old enough to butcher, What if a girl has her period at 12 months old? Why dint Aisha have children? Could it be she was damaged by this old man? Just imagine how painful it must have been for Aisha

[DiLxThief]

I would lead you and bring you to my mother's house--she who has taught me. I would give you spiced wine to drink, the NECTAR OF MY POMEGRANATE (Song Of Solomon 8:2) Making love with his own sister (Song of Songs 4:10) The bible is full of it... need i say more?... "My lover thrust his hand through the latch-opening; my heart began to pound for him (SS 5:4) We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts, But my breasts [are] like towers." (SS8:8-10) Are u going to tell me these are prayers?

[outbackcafe]

@DiLxThief Koran 24:7Allah will send all liars to the hell fire! "(Song Of Solomon 8:2)" says nothing about incest. In previous dialogues have i not called you brother? When I talk to Muslim women, I always address them as sisters, this is true also of Christianity. Are you dumb on purpose or just a trouble maker? "(SS 5:4) " and "(SS8:8-10) " are not even related. If you continue this dishonesty I will cherry pick passages from your books. I have a list that will horrify and disgust.

[DiLxThief]

@outbackcafe Its funny how you totally ignore all the other passages in the bible i quoted containing INCEST and RAPE. The reason I mentioned verses from Songs of Solomon was to show the pornographic imagery in so-called Gods book. If ur father had a concubine wouldn't she be ur mother? CONCUBINE and WIFE are synonymous terms in the Bible Like Jacobs 1st born Reuben has intercourse with his fathers concubine (GEN 35:22), Amnon rapes his half sister in Book of Samuel. These are all facts.

[outbackcafe]

@DiLxThief "Its funny how you totally ignore all the other passages in the bible i quoted containing INCEST and RAPE." What a joke you are, i never ignored anything for everything you have brought up is very easy to answer. Lets see if you can answer my questions, Do you think it must have been painful for a Little 9 year old girl to be penetrated by a old man with a fully grown penis? You dare criticize the bible but just look how sick this situation is!

How can you live with yourself?

[DiLxThief]

And if u wish to go down that road, in trying to defend the passage of Songs of Songs... ie the Gospel of Porn as i call it, then i suggest you open up the books and read the bits where the man calls her his sister. Another point to mention here is (no one would despise me) Meaning if she kissed her brother, no1 would think anything of it, but if she finds a man outside and kisses him, she would be liable for a illegal relationship and people would despise her for the act she was committing.

[DiLxThief]

Your the one who is on repeat: I answered ur silly question 1st time round: A) narrations from Aisha herself concluding she was physically and mentally mature B) Cultural evidences customs and practices of the time C) Historic evidences, not only arabs practiced this custom but Jews and Christians also, even to this day, in Europe, Africa, Asia Middle East D) Scientifically proved that a person who passes their menses cannot be damaged physically as the body is ready for reproduction.

[outbackcafe]

@DiLxThief 'Aisha herself concluding she was physically and mentally mature " a little girl could never consent! If consent is all that is needed then why not two consenting males etc etc? You see how sick this type of reasoning is? What would happen today if someone had sex with a little girl and said" but she doesn't complain" What would we call a man that had sex with a little girl? Would he not be locked up? Sorry but you could never defend this! You have lost before you even start.

[DiLxThief]

What kind of book contains pornography which even surpasses playboy magazine? If God indeed did write the Bible, then Why did he mention these pornographic stories? For what purpose where they revealed? Does God like filthy immoral things? Can God make mistakes? Can Gods words contain mistakes? if the answer is no. Then why does the bible contain so many errors and contradictions? Again Who wrote the bible? What language was it revealed in? Why are their so many different words of God?

[DiLxThief]

As i explained before, 1400 years ago things were different, the customs where different the people where different, marrying young women was a custom of not only the Arabs, but Ancient greeks, Romans, in christian Europe. Just take a look at the age of Marriage under Jewish law and under Christian Law. Just like years ago if u bathed once a week u were seen as clean, but now if u tell someone u bathe once a week they'll think ur a filthy. In many countries even today this culture is prevalent.

[DiLxThief]

taking into account the time period and the customs of the people, the accounts of Aisha herself narrating that she was ready for marriage physically and mentally, taking into account the scientific evidence and definitions of a young adult this clearly shows that she was not a child, she was a mature young lady. The reason why today people have a hard time trying to understand is because we live in a totally different reality to then. Those customs are not practiced, what people accepted then

[DiLxThief]

people would not accept today. The people in those times matured quicker than to children today, the reason is those children saw the reality, faced hardships, they worked, they saw poverty, they matured quicker. Today with all the games, t.v programs cartoons and all the comforts of life dumb down the children, people treat them as children even after their teens.. In poor countries the children are mentally more mature then children in the UK for instance.

[DiLxThief]

The thing is though, its quite hypocritical of Jews and Christians to attack the Marriage of the Messenger(pbuh) to Aisha, because according to your own biblical scholars Mary was around 9-14 when she married Joseph who was 90 years old, are u now going to attack this marriage also? why is it you have difficulty accepting the marriage of Aisha, when Mary according to the biblical historians was young and Joseph a old man? Would u now with the same understanding attack Joseph in the same manner?

[DiLxThief]

Going back to ur claim, that u can Quote many "disgusting" verses from the Quran I challenge you to find 1 verse which is "disgusting" just so i save u the time, if u go onto your anti-Islamic websites, they normally mention the verse where Allah(swt) describes the women of Paradise as having swollen breasts. Is that disgusting? keeping in mind what the bible contains of incest, rape, pornographic imagery and songs about a brother making love with his sister, licking her private parts...

[outbackcafe]

@DiLxThief Liste Koran 24:7 " invoking the curse of Allah on him if he is of those who lie". Why do you lie? Do you not know the curse of Allah will be upon you? We do not have Hadiths but only the bible.

Not one place in the entire bible does it ever discuss the age of Joseph and Mary, show me evidence and references from the bible for any of your claims relating to "brother making love with his sister, licking her private parts..." You are in danger off the hellfire!

[DiLxThief]

1) INCEST BETWEEN FATHER AND DAUGHTERS (GENESIS 19:33-35), 2) INCEST BETWEEN MOTHER AND SON (GENESIS 35:22), 3) Incest between father in law and daughter in law (GENESIS 38: 15-18), 4) Incest and rape between brother and sister (2 Samuel 13:5-14) WHOLESALE RAPE AND INCEST BETWEEN SON AND HIS MOTHERS (2 SAMUELS 16:22), If only you were to me like a brother, who was nursed at my mother's breasts! Then, if I found you outside, I would kiss you, and no one would despise me (song of Solomon 8:1)

[outbackcafe]

@DiLxThief "WHOLESALE RAPE AND INCEST BETWEEN SON AND HIS MOTHERS (2 SAMUELS 16:22),"

Like i said liars go to hell ,here is what bit says2 Samuel 16:22

22 So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the roof, and he slept with his father’s concubines in the sight of all Israel.

"{If only} you were to me like a brother, who was nursed at my mother's breasts! Then, if I found you outside, I would kiss you, and no one would despise me (song of Solomon 8:1)" Do you know what {IF ONLY} means?

[DiLxThief]

Like i said the reason i mentioned songs of songs was simply to expose the pornography in "Gods book". Before i already mentioned so many examples of Incest and rape in the bible. IF ONLY means, i wish u were my brother, Meaning this person was having a incestious fantasy, wishing her lover was her brother... how sick is that. whats worse is people like u defend verses like that and others claiming God wrote them... U never answered any of my Questions. Would u allow ur daughter to read them?

[outbackcafe]

@DiLxThief "Song of Solomon 8 1 If only you were to me like a brother, who was nursed at my mother’s breasts!

Then, if I found you outside, I would kiss you, and no one would despise me. "

There are many ways to defend this, 1. This is a women in love who is representing herself and not God. 2. We know for a fact she has dark skin, and Solomon did not. that is why she says "if only you were like a brother ( Israelite) {no one would despise me}" Jews were not allowed to intermarry.

[DiLxThief]

Its funny to see u try desperately to make sense of this verse and defend incesstious fantasies in the bible.. but to no avail, like many of the Christians u crash and burn. 1) What is the reason for including such filth in his book? Did the one who wrote the bible intend to have incesstious fun with fellow Church goers? 2) Its clear it has nothing to do with race or intermarriage as u try and claim u forget to mention (WHO WAS NURSED AT MY MOTHERS BREASTS) meaning she wished he was her Brother!

[outbackcafe]

@DiLxThief Songs of Solomon is rich in poetry and imagery. Never does it say Solomon was her brother. Chapter 8:1 "If ONLY you were to me like a brother....Then, if i found you outside I would kiss you, AND NO ONE WOULD DESPISE ME." She was black, Solomon was ruddy. If he was a brother (Israelite) then no one would despise her, better still she wanted people to think he was her brother, that way he could visit her without the usual interracial prejudice.

[DiLxThief]

Aisha having children or not has nothing to do with this, 1st reason is, God blesses people with children, a couple can be married for thirty forty years and have no children, but when God decides to bless them he bares them with a baby. Like the story of Zakarias the father of John the Baptist. Secondly the Messenger(saw) had 7 children all from his 1st wife Khadijah(raa) except one son who was from Maria(raa). The Messenger(pbuh) had 12 wives why didnt they conceive? some were older than him.

[DiLxThief]

When 40 years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others, they lived 49 years together and had 6 children. A year after his wife’s death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then 12 to 14 years of age, Joseph, who was at the time 90 years old. (Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 edition) heres the link:

n e w a d v e n t . o r g / c a t h e n / 0 8 5 0 4 a . h t m (take spaces out)

[outbackcafe]

@DiLxThief "Joseph, who was at the time 90 years old. (Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 edition)'

Joseph, who was at the time 90 years old. (Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 edition)"

The catholic encyclopedia says that St,Jerome only had a dream that Joseph was an old man but there’s no evidence because he wasn’t even alive back then.The catholic encyclopedia says St.Jerome’s dream is unreliable. You are lying again! Q24:7 Liars go to hell. You have not shown me any evidence from the bible.

[DiLxThief]

Everything i have mentioned i gave clear evidences, proofs along with references for you to go back and check. I said that the bible contained rape, i proved that, i claimed that the bible contained incest, i've proved that, i claimed the bible contained pornography and absurdities and i've proven that, YOU attacked the Marriage of Aisha and the Messenger(saw) i refuted all ur arguments with clear proofs and evidences historical and scientific facts. Now i move to the Issue of Mary and Joseph.

[outbackcafe]

@DiLxThief " the bible contained rape, i proved that, i claimed that the bible contained incest," Why are you repeating yourself like a broken record? I agree with you 100% that the bible contains rape and incest etc. But does never approve of these things! You cannot be picky with history, Also one i cannot blame God for the shortcomings of man. Now that i have admitted what you say is true, why don't you admit that having sex with little girls is wrong. Be a man and show some courage!!!!!!!!

[DiLxThief]

According to Oxford dictionary Bible commentary Mary(pbuh) was 12 years old when she was impregnated and she was 7-9 years old when she was engaged to Joseph who was believed to be around 39 years old. I understand that the age number is not fully known, but what we can gather here is that all theologians agree, all historic evidences point out that Mary was young and Joseph was allot older than her.. The Muslim will never attack this, reason is they know in ancient times this was a custom...

[DiLxThief]

And the Muslim would never say such a thing, because we Muslims Love and Respect the Lord of All Things Allah the Master of the Universe, we know he is above all that people associate with him. We love and Respect (Mary) Mariam(pbuh), a woman chosen and purified by Allah above women from all nations, And we love Esa Ibn Mariam(as) (Jesus son of Mary) one of the Mightiest Messengers of God! In other words, we Muslims would never make fun of Christianity through such childish topics.

[DiLxThief]

The sad thing here is, even though you agree that the bible contains filth, immoral stories immoral values, pornography, incest, rape, you would not let ur children read such things yet u pretend like there is nothing wrong with that and claim its all part of the history. That is truly disgusting, only God knows how ur mind works, you go on to try and justify these verses by trying to reconcile the verses with the little bit of moral value left in the bible, n even then its from ur OWN words...

[DiLxThief]

I you do a little bit of research on this subject you will actually find that the source is not from St. Jerome's dream, The source is apocryphal text mainly Protoevangelium of James (Gospel of James) which date back about 145AD written by James the Just, Stepbrother of Jesus himself. Furthermore there is nothing in the Gospels of the New Testament to contradict these accounts, and the Gospel stories are not at all inconsistent with these ages for Mary and Joseph.

[outbackcafe]

@DiLxThief Do you even know what the word "apocryphal" means? Next time you copy and paste learn the meanings first. Dictionary definition, 1.of questionable authenticity. 2. untrue: counterfeit. From Islamic sources "Although these apocryphal accounts are not now accepted by many Christians, and the Catholic Encyclopedia says that they “are void of authority.” Also according to you this information dates back to 145AD, that is about 178 years after the birth of Christ!

[DiLxThief]

Lets get one thing straight, i use ur own bible against u and i'm not making things up as i go, i use biblical text, bible historians, Catholic and Jewish encyclopedias as facts. This is what Christians and Jews believe themselves and is widely accepted with in all eastern orthodox denominations including some Churches in Eastern Europe. They all agree that Mary was 12 to 14 when she was married to Joseph who was conciderably older yet Christians find nothing wrong in this, why the hypocrisy?...

[outbackcafe]

@DiLxThief "Lets get one thing straight, i use ur own bible against u and i'm not making things up as i go, i use biblical text," Not once have you shown me or any one here a biblical text that would even slightly hint at the age of Joseph and Mary.

There are numerous contradictions and filth in the Koran that one could spend many hours debating.

But, there is no need, so far not one Muslim has ever given a good explanation for the sexual activity between a little girl and a very old man,.

[DiLxThief]

If the Muslim was a idiot like you Christians were, the Muslim cud respond by saying "Mary must have been emotionally and psychologically devastated for getting impregnated at a young age, her body must have been damaged! Why didn't Mary have any children after that? Talk about child molestation, why did the creator of the Universe decide to enter life through a 12yr girls vagina? Surely God could have chosen a grown women" But Muslims refrain from such childish attacks on Christians...

[outbackcafe]

@DiLxThief "Why didn't Mary have any children after that?" The bible does not say she did not have children after Jesus, Read Matthew 13:55-56. Also you are full of lies when you say she was only 12 years of age, there is not even the slightest hint from the bible that she was twelve. I explained to you what apocrypha means, I made a fool out of you for copying and pasting lies and garbage from your Islamic sites. I dare you to find even one verse from the bible that deals with the age of Mary!

[outbackcafe]

@DiLxThief Does not even the nature of things teach you? How does a old man take his child wife out to a romantic dinner? How can a husband and wife have serious discussions when one is very old and the other is still playing with dolls? What if a husband needed help to move a heavy object like a kitchen table, how can he do this with a tiny little girl? What about sex? This is so disgusting! Would you want your daughter to ponder such filth? These are not attacks but legitimate questions

[DiLxThief]

According to biblical scholars Mary was given to the temple, she lived and served in the temple until she came of age (which according to Jewish encyclopedia) was around 12 years old. They explain that it would have been Illegal for Mary to live in the temple without a blood family member or husband. This is why many biblical scholars say that Mary was "Betrothed" to Joseph even before the miracle of Jesus took place and Joseph was much older than Marry and he was a widower.. these a facts.

[outbackcafe]

18:49 Shabir Ally once again does not give the correct bible references Acts 10:41 says" He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen--by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead". I will accept this as a honest mistake, but i will add that he does not understand the biblical word for "fear'. The fear of God is the one fear that removes all other fears. Does not mean one is to be afraid of God and dread any contact with him.

[ByChoiceMuslim]

Jesus (pbuh) said "verily verily I say unto you except your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and the faresies you shall by no mean enter the kingdom of heaven"

[ImageOFlove]

All victims would be upset with christians god to let criminals go free.

This life is test in Islamic way, You are here to pass your test and God is for sure merciful and you need to be a good and devout person to your Allah.

Prophet Muhammad was praying all the nights and his wife asked why do you pray so much, you ar a prophet and you go free to heaven. Muhammad replied Do not you want me to be a thankful to my God and pray to him.

dont be lazy person! thanks

[jziadeh]

at first i thought Jesues may peace and bleasing be upon him died for the original sin and now he died for all sins?

[ozone02]

Christians of The West worship a Middle Eastern man THEY named Jesus. Christians of the Middle East do not know the western name Jesus and the only name they know for God is Allah and Christians of the West do not believe Allah is their God. Christians in Indonesia and Malaysia call God Allah even though they do not speak Arabic. If there is one thing Christians could agree on, that would be a universal name for God who is the only ONE universal and beyond universal.

[doyanrujak]

@ozone02 that because allah simply means god in the arabic language, that's why some christians use it in the bible. So we can say that zeus is greek 'allah', vishnu is hindu's 'allah', jehovah is jewish' 'allah'.

in exodus 3:13-14 when moses ask god what's his name, god replied to him:

"God said to Moses, "I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you."

what is your 'allah' (god) name?

[azadam1000]

@doyanrujak Allah is the name . ''the God in arabic is aRebb

[ah05075]

my two cents, christians take the easier option in belief where their sins are removed by jesus but muslims are to be accountable for their actions and im referingto belifs rather than individuals

[loveisfundamental]

19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

[CmRoddy]

fleurancedinh: So, do you really feel like you can handle God's wrath as punishment? And you act as if God punished someone else, no He made a self sacrifice for the sins of the world so that we don't have to take the punishment. I don't think that anyone can handle the punishment of sin, not even God in flesh wanted to.

Praise be to God almighty for sending His son to die for me and you out of love and mercy so that we don't have to be saved by our own merit, but by His grace and redemption.

[ladaghini]

my two cents...

Here is some of my logic:

Start with this given:

There will be people in Heaven and Hell (Christian and Muslim standpoint - no argument there).

God ultimately does not love those that went to Hell, God did love those that went to Heaven.

Therefore, God loves some and does not love others.

Therefore, God does not show unconditional love to humans (if I must word it that way), whether in the Muslim concept or Christian concept.

[mirrormoveuchiha]

@ladaghini i disagree with your logic. A person only goes to Hell if they do not accept God's free gift of love and mercy and grace through His Son Jesus Christ, and His Spirit seals them eternally. Now take into consideration free will. If you were the judge and your brother was on trial for murdering 3000 people in a terrorist attack, it doesnt mean that you dont love him when you give him what he deserves due to what God says is right to do and wrong to do whichs equals the Law of God.

[ladaghini]

@mirrormoveuchiha "A person only goes to Hell if they do not accept God's free gift of love and mercy and grace through His Son Jesus Christ."

Because your book says so? Great argument!

Sarcasm aside, why can't we accept God's mercy in our salvation by acceptance of our repentance and our commitment to His Will? Why must a third party (Jesus) be involved in our salvation?

[mirrormoveuchiha]

@ladaghini Because the Old testament is full of God's words, giving us promises of the Messiah, and Jesus fulfilled them. And when someone dies, is buried, and then his tomb is found empty and people see him after his death, its a resurrection, and we should listen to someone who conquers death.

[mirrormoveuchiha]

@ladaghini Becaue you can not be justified except by God's Word, thats why the Father sent His Son, because all our righteousness is as filthy rags before him. Are you worthy to stand before the Almighty without a Mediator?

[ladaghini]

@mirrormoveuchiha What kind of "omnipotent" god requires a mediator for us to get to him? If God wants to forgive our sins and grant us Paradise (the ones who are righteous of course), can't He just forgive our sins and grant us Paradise? Why this drama of sending a son and then killing him? Moreover, what kind of loving God kills the most perfect man (according to Christians) so that us sinners can be saved. What kind of barbaric god is this? Where is the logic?

[mirrormoveuchiha]

@ladaghini The Omnipotent God is unseeable without Jesus, because sin is not something God blinks at, if you sin, there is a debt. Didnt the Lord at passover tell Moses and the people of Israel that without the blood of the Lamb upon the door and doorposts He would send in the destroyer to kill their firstborn? All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus was perfect, and that is why he was a guilt offering for our sins, a Lamb without blemish, without sin.

[ladaghini]

@mirrormoveuchiha So the "omnipotent" God that made us to be sinners, that knows what we experience when we sin, can't then look at us because we're filthy rags? Hmmm. Some omnipotence.

Also, you read lamb with a capital L, and I don't.

[mirrormoveuchiha]

@ladaghini capital letter or not, without this Lamb Jesus, you cant be perfect, God's standard is perfection. He didnt make us sinners, we fell, like the fallen angels. God sent Jesus to redeem us. Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

[ladaghini]

@mirrormoveuchiha We fell, or Adam and Eve fell? Correct me if I am wrong, but if Adam and Eve hadn't eaten from the forbidden tree, wouldn't we all be in Paradise?

[mirrormoveuchiha]

@ladaghini Adam and Eve still went to paradise, as well as Abraham and others, but if they had not fell, they wouldnt have died, and wouldve been able to come before God without a sacrifice. Even Abel gave a sacfrice, a blood sacrifice.

[mirrormoveuchiha]

@ladaghini God You cant be saved without Jesus, so does the blood of the Lamb cover you? have you accepted His sacrifice, and had your sins blotted out? All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved, so repent and confess your sins to Jesus, believe in His name and recieve the Holy Spirit for the forgiveness of your sins and the cleansing and renewing of the your spirit.

[ladaghini]

@mirrormoveuchiha Again, because your book says so? If one wishes to preach his beliefs, he (or she) should look through the lens of a non-believer. I see a scapegoat and a god not powerful enough to deal with us directly. Can you blame me?

[mirrormoveuchiha]

@ladaghini Have you never read about the two goats, one for Azazel and one for the Lord?

[ladaghini]

@mirrormoveuchiha No, I haven't. But an allusion to a scapegoat story doesn't Jesus's "sacrifice" any more logical nor justifiable. You can have a million stories foreshadowing an ultimate sacrifice, and through a non-believer's eyes, that's a million reasons to not accept this unjustifiable concept of salvation.

[mirrormoveuchiha]

@ladaghini So do you not admit that your a sinner? the punishment for sin is death, so why shouldnt you die, Adam and Eve died spiritually when they ate the fruit, and physically later on, so do you see where im going with this?

[ladaghini]

@mirrormoveuchiha, I can completely accept that I commit sin. We all do. My problem is having an innocent third party killed, and somehow that saves me?

(Aside, my earlier comment should've read "... doesn't make Jesus's...")

(continued...)

[mirrormoveuchiha]

@ladaghini Not just any innocent third party, but the Messiah, the King of Israel, the Holy One, he took on flesh to do what no other could, be perfect under the law, sinless, and he chose to take our punishment, death, so that all who accept the sacrifice that God has made, Him giving His only Son, the eternal Word of God made flesh to be a Lamb slain, that his perfect innocent blood might be on me, a sinner who without God's salvation is dead.

[ladaghini]

@mirrormoveuchiha Here is my reasoning: God is omnipotent. God is also just. God wants us to be just in our dealings in this world. (givens.) I have now the choice to believe

- God sends His perfect son to be killed for the sins we commit; we are saved on accepting this sacrifice.

- God directly forgives the sins of those that accept His existence, don't worship others, and have the right intentions behind the good works they do.

(basically salvation in Christianity and Islam.

(continued)

[mirrormoveuchiha]

@ladaghini So, are your intentions always right? you said you have sinned, and have to either pay for those sins, or someone has to pay them for you. So i guess the question is like Dr Craig said, do you think that at the judgement of the Almighty, the Holy One in whom there is no darkness at all, who dwells in light that we cannot even see his face and live, just the good works that you do, even a nonbeliever can do charitable things and love their children and friends. Grace is the free gift

[ladaghini]

@mirrormoveuchiha I never said that my intentions are always right. And I never said that our salvation is based on the good works that we do. I mean to say that we have to do good deeds. Actions speak louder than words. And also, the intentions behind the deeds must also be good. If the right intentions aren't there, the deeds are meaningless. And by good intentions, I mean, doing good deeds to please God alone. Non believers don't even believe in God, so how will their deeds be accepted?

[mirrormoveuchiha]

@ladaghini Im glad we agree in that true living faith is a faith that produces good fruit, righteous deeds, love, charity, compassion, mercy. These are the gifts of the Holy Spirit. If the right intentions arent there, God knows their heart, and knows that they have the wrong intentions. But as you said, the nonbelievers can never be righteous before God, because they believe not the Word of the Lord.

[RandomPCStuff]

@mirrormoveuchiha Yes, if we truly believe in God, then our actions will reflect this belief. And this guidance is only from God. You say Holy Spirit. I don't believe in the trinity. But that's another discussion.

[mirrormoveuchiha]

@RandomPCStuff Do you not believe that God is a Spirit, and that we must worship Him in spirit and in truth? or that he even maketh His angels to be spirits and his ministers a flame of fire? The Spirit which proceeds from the Heavenly Father is God"s Holy Spirit, who like the Word in the beginning was with God and was God.

[ladaghini]

@mirrormoveuchiha As a Muslim, I believe that God has no shape or form. I also believe in the angels that follow God's orders. But, these angels are part of God's creation and are subject to His mercy. They are not God, nor a part of God. God does not need the angels to get His message to us. That's just how He chose to do it. The gift of salvation does not come from any of the angels; nor does it come from any of God's creation. It comes from God alone. Only He has the authority to do so.

[mirrormoveuchiha]

@ladaghini we agree then, because God isnt an angel, nor an angel God, but God is one Lord, one God and Father of all, one Lord and Saviour, one Spirit and Comforter.

[Nyarl3]

@ladaghini As a Christian, I agree with everything you just said.

[mirrormoveuchiha]

@RandomPCStuff Genesis 1:1-5 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

[RandomPCStuff]

@mirrormoveuchiha Sorry, logged in with the wrong account

[ladaghini]

@mirrormoveuchiha "If you were the judge... deserves"

If I love someone, I would want him to be at peace. If giving someone "what he deserves" necessitates some sort of punishment, as long as he ultimately attains peace, I can justify this love as being unconditional and all-encompassing.

But I can't justify this love as such if he is damned to hell for eternity (i.e. no more peace). Moreover, if someone really deserves eternal torture, can I justify my sympathy for him?

[mirrormoveuchiha]

@ladaghini You can care for even the lost, to love your enemies, and all who are in the world, but if they dont accept Jesus, they will not be saved, God is not a respector of persons.

[ranger1360]

jesus gives a test to see if the messenger is from god. and jesus says the spirit that confesses that i am the messiah is of god. and what does the quran say, that jesus is most certainly the messiah. booo yaaaaa

[knightsofstjoan2004]

Yeshua HaMashiach is The Suffering Servant Messiah in Isaiah 53, he suffered and died for the sins of the world and resurrected on the third day as a representative and substitutionary sacrifice and that all who believe in Him are justified, not by any works of righteousness they have done, but by His perfect righteousness and atoning blood and that there is no other name under heaven by which all must be saved.

[layziethabone]

according to christians if someone has more good deeds than bad deeds and doesn't believe God commited suicide for his sins will go to hell for eternity but if a christian is a rapist, murderer, thive etc he will fo to paradise because he believes God comited suicide for his sins. doesn't this make the christian god the most unjust person that exist.

[gambeetz]

If we don't have to earn the salvation and mercy by doing good deeds because Jesus already died for us on the cross, then why bother doing good deeds in life?!!Let's do whatever we want in this world just like Ricky Martin said,'Livin la vida loca'....?!!!!

[mirrormoveuchiha]

@gambeetz A christian should give mercy as he is given mercy, as also he should do whatsoever Jesus has commanded. This is the earning of salvation through faith in Jesus who is truly perfect and sinless and is the Saviour of the world which God sent to save it from the wicked one. This mean you dont go out and willingly sin or do whats evil and wrong, you turn from those things, and the Spirit will lead you to Christ and to the Father.

[gambeetz]

Let say if somebody in this world doing bad things like killed or raped somebody then the judge say, that this person is saved and does not have to get into punishment because Jesus Christ's flesh&blood sacrificed on the cross. Does is seem unfair that somebody does evil and somebodyelse got punished?!!

[gambeetz]

So, God in the bible is a hater?!!

[fleurancedinh]

Do christians tell their child : O son, you have to be good ! but if you do sins don't worry because someone else already payed for it !

If my child do something wrong,like stealing fro example, I will punish him and not someone else...everyone has to learn to be responsible for their own actions.

and if I commit a sin I will be ashamed if someone is punished on my behalf, this is not Justice !

[regelemihai]

@fleurancedinh

No Christians says that because Christ paid for the sins of man that therefore we shouldn't care about sinning. That's a strawman argument.

[xiaahmad]

jesus tells that keep the commandments and follow me

but paul and these chrisitians say believe in suicide of God

[mastermind22x]

Shabir Ally is tight :)

[poodleinsky]

christianity is confusing

truth stands clear from error

islam is the only way submission is a must this life is slipping away and their is nothing we can take with us exept our faith and good deeds

[lmkmonte]

James, in the Bible, says.."faith without works is dead"..You have to work out your salvation with God..You must earn your salvation...You don't get salvation if you do not do good. With that understanding the Christian is contradicting himself...

[mail062000]

both men are very smart.

[GothThug81]

indeed..great debate

[Kite207]

yes. I mean you can it a tie. nobody won and nobody loss.

But? is the God of the Bible really alaways love? I mean take a look at theses verses.

Proverbs 6:16, 19

These six things doth the LORD hate ... A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Hosea 9:15

I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings.

Malachi 1:3

And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

[Kite207]

Romans 9:13

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Psalm 5:5

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalm 11:5

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Leviticus 20:23

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

Is this called unconditional love?

[gambeetz]

So, in Christianity u r saved by Christ'blood on cross to clean up your sins, that's how u got salvation from Jesus Christ but James, in the Bible, says.."faith without works is dead"..You have to work out your salvation with God..You must earn your salvation...You don't get salvation if you do not do good. Can u see the contradiction?!!