Dr. Tiller was a great man who helped many women who needed the help, he was a great family man, he had a life, a family, a church (obviously) and a job that helped thousands.
To see such a great person being murdered is truly sad. He is my inspiration. He is the reason I will become an abortionist to help women that otherwise wouldn't have access.
Abortion is a sad subject, I wholly agree, but I'm just confused as to why pro-lifers are so obsessed not only with "the baby" but also with controlling another person's body and restricting their choices. It makes about as much sense to restrict a woman's right to reproductive healthcare as it does to restrict a man from prostate and testicular cancer screenings. Since it's not your body, fuck off and let people make a choice for themselves.
Everyone on here is talking about hoe Religion violates logic, but somehow abortion does not.
Believing in God and a more spiritual perspective on life is a form of mental dilusion and insanity, yet sucking out your baby with a vacuum cleaner and taking it's head out with tongs means your mentally healthy.
So nice to see Americans oon here taking more pride in their second amendment than the most innocent human beings asleep in a womb.
The pro-choice movement is a laugh, Im glad he's dead
I am Pro Life and I can't stand abortion. Dr. Tiller is burning in hell getting what he deserves and Scott Roeder will get what he deserves. Two wrongs do not make one right.
"LIFE" is what happens to you while you are making other plans.
@fretter31 Well atleast Liberal and Social-Democratic countries have equality and strong economies, or did you not notice that Canada, Germany, the Neitherlands and the Scandinavian nations are not in an economic crisis right now. Liberalism is not perfect, but its a hell of a lot better then Conservatism and there is real world evidence to support that claim.
right-wing people like he are always about control of all the people, they are not for freedom of speech, freedom of press etc. unless it benefits them! They want their beliefs put into law, so all people, who don't agree with them have no right to live as they'd like. Whereas when the law is liberal, people on the left AND on the right can do what they want, because it's not the governments business to regulate it! It's really strange for me to watch this, because I don't live in the US!
that its not true. Both, conservatives n liberals, use the law for their own convenience. Nobody is stupid. Liberals use Hollywood, TV shows, Music Videos and all the media to teach children and teens that being lesbian, bisexual and gay is normal. Conservatives use churches, Fox News, and the Washington times to teach the opposite. America is deeply divided, so Im afraid the next Civil War is coming. One single incident, and that's it. A war between Christians vs Antichristians
Yes, but the fact is that being lesbian or homosexual is normal and is not 'evil'. So in other words, the liberals you claim are teaching this aren't lying. The Conservatives are. There's your problem.
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH call me homophobic, but honestly i find disgusting watching 2 men kissing eachother in the street, is not normal, is eeeww. My parents are liberals, they never told me: Hate the fags, hate the dykes. I just don't like it.
Well, luckily, human rights and civil liberties aren't catered to your personal feelings or popular vote. You don't like it, don't watch it. It's as simple as that.
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH no, ALL gays and lesbians are tolerants, ALL gays are good people, in fact THEY ALL ARE PERFECT... idiot. Bye Mister "All gays are tolerants". Have a bad day
I asked you a valid question: 'How have homosexuals been intolerant against you?'.
You could have honestly answered, but that probably wouldn't have served your argument that 'they are disgusting' very well, would it? because judging from your response, they probably haven't, which would mean you are throwing a fuzz about nothing.
If you haven't got a leg to stand, get the fuck out. Spare yourself further embarrassment.
@trifulquita15 unless they're trying to get you to join i just don't see why you'd care. suppose you've been taught to hate all of which you see. try not using the terms "fag and dyke", perhaps you could educate your parents. murderers, child molesters, racists, etc. are the problem with the world.... not doctors who are providing a service people want, nor those whose sexual beliefs are different then your own. your parents raised you to be an ignorant fuck, hope they're proud.
It's amazing that these rightwing nuts can't seem to shake their abortion obessession. Beginning with the slaughter of Native peoples, America's been the most violent nation on the face of the Earth. Abortion is something that should be left up to the individual. Keep government out of people's private lives.
Until you rightiwng nuts acknowledge the violence America's committed across the centuries in places like Viet Nam & Iraq, shut the fuck up. What fucking Grade A creeps you all are. Eew.
Someone who is truly "pro-life" would never harm anyone, would never threaten anyone and would certainly never kill anyone. These people care more about a bunch of cells without a brain, without a heart and without any form of life in it than a human being dedicating his entire life to this cause and staying despite threats and harassements. These people disgust me...
One day they'll come a day where the sanctity of life isn't on a sliding scale. We'll love and respect one another regardless of our personal beliefs. We will no longer value the life of a fetus over the life of a fellow brother/sister. We will know that murder is not right - regardless. And no longer will we rejoice at the thought of inflicting pain. I cling to the last threads of hope, one day. It's gotta be better than this, one day. One day, can we?
Gotta love these pro-life people. They're only pro-life when it comes to the unborn. Scott Roeder was prepared to kill not just Dr. Tiller, but all those who got in his way.
Hitler killed 6 mil Jews and the U.S.A killed 49,551,703 from 1973 to 2010. Jan 16 2011 377 baby die. But that was Not right that some one kill Tiller . The Bible says > Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. ?
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." --Luke 6:37
I'm agnostic, but this quote is really something I hold dear to me. It seems, though, that many Christians have forgotten and abandoned it, which saddens me. It's such a good phrase to live by.
I hope that everyone out there knows that Dr. Tiller only performed late-term abortions in cases in which either the child would be born with a severe or fatal defect, or in cases that found the mother to be in danger of being severely injured or killed during delivery.
Now, every time that ANYONE performs ANY sort of abortion, there is a profit. Does that make Dr. Tiller any different than any other abortion provider, save for his late-term exceptions?
If you're a "pro-lifer", you're a very bad one, rooting on the death of a human.
If you can't laugh at Tiller the child killer getting aborted, then you have no fucking sense of humor! Should I feel sad that Tiller the child killer got his pecker shot off? lolz
Do you fancy yourself as noble? Do you view yourself as just? Do you think yourself right for laughing at a murder? At the death of a man?
I suppose there's no reasoning with such a sick individual.
Also, he didn't get his 'pecker' shot off. He was shot through the eye at close range. Though facts probably don't matter to someone who so readily throws logic out.
Listen, there are a million other late term abortions you could choose to get indignant about, why make such a huge deal out of Tiller the child killer?? And yes it was funny when I first learned Tiller the child killer got his balls shot off.
If anybody follows the Law you should know that 'at Best' the abortion Doctor is 'an accomplice' to the crime (if you regard this a crime) The Mom (mother) is the murderer. It's 'premedatated' as in, the Mom makes an abortion appointment, drives to the clinic, puts on a gown, & opens her legs. If these idiots want to protest & put 'Wanted Posters' up of baby killers, trying protesting outside the Mother's house or putting up 'Wanted Mom' Posters. The docs only providing a service dumbazz..
When you base your life on an invisible friend & Slave-Master regardless of all the empirical evidence against said mysticism, you're bound to ignore reality and logic on occasion.
“The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance ... logic can be happily tossed out the window.” --Stephen King
For fucking secularism's sake, this is just like the jailing of Dr. Kevorkian, only far more dangerous. It just shows you how far behind Americans are in terms of social issues compared to other Western countries which came out of the Enlightenment unscathed. That's right, while other countries are focusing their resources on serious topics like the economy or the growing number of fundamentalist Muslim immigrants, Americans are still debating about abortion and euthanasia. Pathetic.
@frankystein12 You forgot about the 'heated' 'Don't Ask Don't Tell' Debate also! Yeah, I was just laid off of my 15 year job but really worry daily about 'Gays Serving in the Military'!!
And by the way, I've seen videos and pictures of car accident victims; they didn't convince me that the government should pass laws banning the manufacture, sale and use of automobiles.
@gspendlove car accidents are a risk you take when you drive a car just like owning a gun. Anti-gun folks try to claim that because of gun violence there shouldn't be guns. Well should you ban cars then too? Cars and guns are privileges that result in errors sometimes. You don't play around and having a kid isn't a privilege to either accept or deny. Abortions if anything are the most selfish acts one can commit.
@Chslosers You have your opinion, and I respect it. And believe it or not, I SHARE it. In many instances, abortion is 100% wrong. But you missed my point. It's not for me to dictate to a woman whether or not she may have an abortion. It's none of my business -- and it's not the government's business either. That's what the Supreme Court's decision on Roe v. Wade was all about. And, BTW, I'm not one of those anti-gun people. I'm PRO-2nd Amendment.
@gspendlove it would have been worse had every woman who has had an abortion gave birth to an unwantted child. abortion should be legal because every mother should want to be one, and every child should be a wanted child. religious aspects, etc. don't seem to take that into account. people could have their babies, but if it's a pregnancy the mother doesn't want, the child won't be cared for properly. i wonder if religion frowns more on abortion, or abandoned babies?
This is the LOGICAL CONCLUSION of anti-choice thought. IF you believe that a fetus is a person, then the ONLY LOGICAL COURSE OF ACTION is to use whatever means necessary to remove them from harm. Anti-choice folks of all stripes are ALL secretly rejoicing inside at the murder of Dr. Tiller and other abortion-doctors. To them I would just say to crack open a biology text book. And learn why some women sometimes NEED to have abortions. Fetuses are fetuses not persons.
They always refer to these fetuses like they are people. I have news for the pro-life movement: fetuses are not conscious humans. How in the world can abortion be considered murder?
@rafaravioli The Christian religion is based on the myth that the universe was created perfectly by a divine being, and that the only thing that makes the universe NOT perfect, is the sins of man. So, the base assumption is - if anything goes wrong - it is someone's fault. So, the fetus (who is without sin) is perfect, and the woman should be punished for either having sex (or being raped), having a dangerous pregnancy, or having a malformed fetus. It's only "murder" if they are innocent.
Actually (and ironically), the Christians believe that every fetus has the 'original sin' before they are even born (therefore, the fetuses are *not* innocent in their worldview). And if they try to tell you that the fetuses do not have the 'original sin', then they are admitting that the fetuses are not humans (because they believe every human has this alleged 'original sin').
@rafaravioli You would think that - but the excommunication of a nine year old child's mother, and the doctors involved - who performed an abortion because she was going to give birth to twins (risky even for an adult) after being raped by her step-father says otherwise. Funny thing - the father who raped her for three years, creating the horrible situation, didn't get excommunicated. Killing two perfect innocent fetuses that are endangering a child's life is much worse than that aparently.
@sinmantyx soo u watch a robotic sounding guy ( zimmy jones who i think is really a robot) and then you watch the news or the media? yeah ur defiently a illuminati puppet
@gotthkid2 YEP - I totally have the illuminati's infallable hand up my ass. :) Actually, I haven't actually watched the video yet - I'm just familiar with the case. I clicked on it not knowing it was msnbc.
@gspendlove Our culture is not educated on abortion. If you see a video or picture of an abortion it will change your life. I am not saying Dr.Tiller should have been shot but people need to stop thinking of this guy as a hero.
@fashionhistorylover No question, abortion is a terrible, brutal procedure. But we must make sure it is an option available to women. Being a man, I cannot imagine how agonizing a decision it must be for a woman. But it is, and should remain, the woman's decision. It is NOT government's place to legislate this issue, and a million pictures or videos of aborted babies can't change that. Abortion should be safe, legal and rare -- and right or wrong, someone else's abortion is none of our business.
Okay, here's the deal- I'm trying to see if some pro-choice people are working from empathy(mother will be harmed, child is a going to die, child would live horrible life) or if they work from dogma(It's a woman choice to do with her body as she wishes) or if they are naturalistic( A person can do anything they are capable of, morality doesn't apply) You see, I'm pro-choice, but I don't see many people defending the position logically, instead simply shouting choice.
@Ebuverthebicepcurler "or if they work from dogma(It's a woman choice to do with her body as she wishes)" Sorry, maybe right would be a better word- it's a woman's right to do with her body as she pleases.
@Ebuverthebicepcurler Quit being silly - the answer to your question is YES. You can't "answer a question' when all your answers are not mutually exclusive to the group you are studying. You could find out what the general percentages were (if you had a budget), but trying to push everyone who self-identifies as "pro-choice" into one of several philosphies on the subject is completely futile.
You see, I don't think many pro-choice woman are thinkers, but adhere to a doctrine similar to pro-lifers. "It's my body my choice" next to "Jesus said so." I'm trying to see if you can think out your morality beyond statements of offense.
@Ebuverthebicepcurler , I think the pro-choice position is that no government should have the power to tell a woman that she must carry a child to term. That is an incredible invasion of the government inside the body of a person. If the government has that power, it likely also has the power to compel blood and organ donation from live donors (e.g. kidney donation) which is surely less invasive and risky than childbirth, and benefits persons with names and personalities.
@rg0057 Hmm, you know, I don't think it follows all those would happen- it wasn't the case when abortion was illegal. Ps, just to make it clear with everyone I'm really only in contention with the idea it is legal to kill a baby right before birth, but not once it is born. Tearing up early fetuses with no ability to feel pain doesn't bother me.
@Ebuverthebicepcurler It is against standard medical practice to abort a fetal post-viability unless there is a compelling medical reason. Many times that reason is the fact that the fetus is not developing correctly or because the mother is at great risk. A doctor who performs an abortion post-viability with no medical reason, will lose their license - even if it was legal in that state. At least this is my understanding.
Wait, what about the couples who decided to kill their own baby? If YOU, murderer, says the doctor is responsible for the baby, Ain't their parents even MORE responsible for that? Why don't you kill their parents too?
@chropose "Ain't their parents even MORE responsible for that? Why don't you kill their parents too?" Funny comment. Well, they likely think that they get more bang for their buck by killing a doctor, and that they would get bad press that way. Also, they view woman as victims hoodwinked by evil doctors(similar to their view on young atheist).
Radical Christians who threaten (and actually murder) doctors are just and vile as radical Muslims who threaten (and actually murder) cartoonists. Both are terrorists who need to leave these extreme elements of their beliefs back in the Stone Age where they belong.
Here it goes- I hate the dogmatism of both sides. People shout choice or Jesus, but no one gets down to the nitty gritty of why a person might find abortion wrong or why is is permissible. I'll try to work around those lines. First, as far as I know early term fetuses have no way of feeling pain, as such you at least don't have to take empathy into account, as there is no suffering. Once a baby is able to be born and survive however, inside or out of the womb it is the same as infanticide.
@Ebuverthebicepcurler Note, saying it is the same as infanticide is not speaking in legal terms, or even on moral terms, but really just pointing out that the difference between the very late term abortion and what is traditionally called infanticide is the location of the act. If a person is against infanticide, but for late term abortion, this would seem a fairly arbitrary morality.
So, if a person is against infanticide I suspect they would be consistent to be against very late term abortions
I believe using the word "elective" describing some of Tiller's late-term abortions led to more controversy than need be. I know a few pro lifers (none as radical as Scott...) who would support postviability late-term abortions if the mother's life or health were at risk (like one of the women shown in the video with a 3% chance of survival) or the fetus itself had such a severe defect it could not survive long outside the womb regardless (such as anencephaly).
@Ebuverthebicepcurler I'm really not sure how inside a body and outside a body are "arbitrary". My body is a very specific "location". Implying that my body is interchangeable with any other location is dehumanizing and bizarre.
@sinmantyx Well, is it like sovereignty- IE, you feel you have complete control over anything and everything within your body? Lets do a little far out test here- what if a baby with the genius of Mozart was in you and in no way harm you, would you then accept the choice to kill it as morally permissible? Note- I'm not a dogmatic moralist- I only choose to do what is empathetic. I am not here to tell people they are wrong, but to search their morality for inconsistencies.
@Ebuverthebicepcurler@sinmantyx part2 Now your thinking would be consistence with might makes right law- that those with power can use it as they please. I don't think it works from the empathy angle or the human angle(The idea that people should be treated as special, something that can be silly). Of course, feel free to pm me and debate with me privately.
@Ebuverthebicepcurler MY thinking? What exactly do you think that is? I'm not sure how "might makes right" has anything to do with being annoyed that, as far as you are concerned, a womb inside a human being is the same as a room at Motel 6, a salad bowl, or the third floor of an IKEA. I mean - it's just a location. If "might makes right" is on-topic at all, it's in the context of a sexist society where men hold power and assert that women are just walking incubators - you know - a location.
@sinmantyx Well, you state so long as a fetus is in your womb you have the ability to do with it as you wish, right? Perhaps might is right isn't the right term, perhaps something close to state rights? I'm trying to work out your morality, what it is exactly. Obvious, morality is man-made and doesn't represent reality, so if you say something is moral it is just as true as anything I make up- we choose the rules we live by. But what rules are they? That's the question
@Ebuverthebicepcurler No - you are just assuming that's what my stance is. You're assuming this because you THINK that everyone is in one of two extreme camps. Just because I think that a woman's body is NOT just some random location, you think that I believe in complete non-restriction on abortion?! I support the law as it currently is - a woman has a right to an abortion of a non-viable or pre-viable fetus and a right to abortion if maintaining the pregnancy is a threat to her health.
@sinmantyx "Just because I think that a woman's body is NOT just some random location, you think that I believe in complete non-restriction on abortion?! I " That WAS what my hypothetical was about.
@Ebuverthebicepcurler The ONLY thing I said was that a BODY is not just like any other location. That's horrible. Apparently, you have never been pregnant because you also assert that the a pregnancy "in no way harm you". A womb is not just a little house. Pregnancy and delivery are generally the most traumatic things to happen to a woman in her life. You are emotionally, psychologically and physical PERMANANTLY changed by it.
@sinmantyx "Apparently, you have never been pregnant because you also assert that the a pregnancy "in no way harm you" No, I was saying in the hypothetical you aren't harmed, so it doesn't enter the equation. Of course, all the usual pain is involved.
@Ebuverthebicepcurler To anwer your question about the "little Mozart" that might be growing in my body. Perhaps, I should have as many children as I can possibly have on the off-chance that one might be a Mozart?! Also, I'm insulted by the idea that fetal GENIUS status means it would be less acceptable to end the pregnancy. Sorry - I'm not a eugenesist.
@sinmantyx "To anwer your question about the "little Mozart" that might be growing in my body. Perhaps, I should have as many children as I can possibly have on the off-chance that one might be a Mozart?" Now I'm not saying you should take risk based on the probability you might give birth to mozart, here it is a literal genius of small size. Does the fact he is in your body on its own men it is okay within your moral framework to kill him?
@Ebuverthebicepcurler You know about as much about fetal and childhood development as a shoe lace. :) Nobody gave BIRTH to "Mozart". "Mozart' is the equivalent of a "child star" with a crazy stage mom. How about Einstein? He had a brain defect and didn't speak until he was about five years old. YOU cannot know what the fate of a child is at birth much less during fetal development. So WHAT exactly is your point?
@sinmantyx As to mozart, I'm not talking about giving birth, but rather challenging the notion that the location of the person changes everything. The image of a genius in the womb is silly and in fact impossible, but I'm using hypotheticals to find out your morality, so excuse the silly image. What I'm saying is, does location change the whole situation on its own?
@Ebuverthebicepcurler I reject the question, because characterizing a person's body as a "location" is insulting at it's face. If you want to ask if the fetus being inside or outside the mother's body changes the situation on its own - yes, it does. Once the fetus is outside of the mother - there is no consideration for the mother's continued physical health due to the fetus being in there and attached to her. The *whole* situation? - depends on the situation.
@sinmantyx "Once the fetus is outside of the mother - there is no consideration for the mother's continued physical health due to the fetus being in there and attached to her. The *whole* situation? " Now I get somewhere- the location on its own isn't the game changer, but what it might entail. It isn't just that the baby is in the womb, but that this can cause problems. As you said, you are not for all abortions. Good- finally what I wanted.
@Ebuverthebicepcurler I've become suspicious that feminist operate under a dogmatic system, but now that this has been put into empathetic terms I can relax. You don't just say "A woman can do anything she wants with the fetus as a right.", but instead "She can do anything to avoid danger." I'm glad to see more than slogans, I just wish you would do more explaining, because pro-life crowds really do think any and all abortions are viewed by you as a right.
@Ebuverthebicepcurler And while I'm not a pro-lifer, I grew up in that crowd, so I needed to find out what exactly was being said by the pro-life crowd, if it was dogmatic, etc. And while I might accidentally use the language of morality, don't mistake me for a moralist. The ideas of there being things one should or shouldn't do is ridiculous- morals aren't inherent in nature, we make them up to attain what we want or because of ignorance. So, my empathy is really just no more than a desire.
@Ebuverthebicepcurler The reason that many pro-lifers think that all pro-choice people think all abortions are great and wonderful (and should even be encouraged) is because 1) a vocal minority of pro-choicers actually do feal that way and 2) many pro-lifers lack the ability to have a nuianced opinion or understand one - they live in a black and white world - as do many social conservatives.
@sinmantyx "many pro-lifers lack the ability to have a nuianced opinion or understand one - they live in a black and white world - as do many social conservatives." True. Sadly there's a lot of baggage growing up that way, and you have to ride yourself of it bit by bit.
@Ebuverthebicepcurler I understand - trust me - but it goes even deeper than that. I sent you a link to a study that basically shows that social conservatives lack the cognitive ability to deal with conflict in a reasoned way. When confronted with even the simpliest thing outside the norm - they don't fully comprehend it. Obviously - we talking about bell-curves here and not the ENTIRE GROUP - but I'm not making this up. In fact, it disturbs me.
@Ebuverthebicepcurler The "safe, legal, and rare" slogan is about as reasonable a "nutshell" as you can get pro-choice majority view into. "Woman's body, woman's right", is simply an acknowledgement that forcing a woman or girl to carry a pregnancy, incurring the toll of that pregnancy against her will, is obscene. Abortion (by definition) occurs before viability, so those talking about healthy 8 mo. fetuses aren't even having the same conversation a majority of the time.
@Ebuverthebicepcurler Since you asked - I am "pro-choice" politically for pragmatic reasons. Since forcing a woman to maintain a pregnancy regardless of circumstance is unreasonable, governmental law cannot and should not be used to regulate abortion - since there is a time-sensitive nature to deciding when abortion should be permitted. So, these decisions should be allowed to be made by a women and her doctor according to standard medical practice - privately and swiftly.
@Ebuverthebicepcurler The question of MORALITY is a completely different question to me. Do you think it is moral to abort a healthy late-term fetus of a healthy mother - NO. This is also against standard medical practice in the U.S. That is a no-brainer extreme for most people. Ectopic pregnancy - of course you abort. No question there. Most situations aren't that easy, and easy answers don't exist. Generally though - it boils down to least harm.
@sinmantyx "Most situations aren't that easy, and easy answers don't exist. Generally though - it boils down to least harm. " Now that's what I want- nothing that just sounds like a slogan or an arbitrary right.
@Ebuverthebicepcurler ...don't be confused though. I think a right to determine what happens to ones body is not "arbitrary" and I treat the legal question and the "what is the right thing to do in this situation" question very differently. I was never as staunchly pro-choice until I experienced pregnancy and delivery. After that, I understood the arguments much better.
@sinmantyx "I was never as staunchly pro-choice until I experienced pregnancy and delivery. After that, I understood the arguments much better." I can't exactly do that.
All this jackass did was make the women go somewhere else, prolonging the inevitable abortion, or resort to more dangerous methods. He really accomplished nothing in the long run.
Inorder to talk about abortion we need to talk about what makes murder wrong. If you are religious you believe the person who died is in a happier place. If you aren't religious than you believe that a person who dies ceases to exist. Either way the person who was killed is really no worse off. What makes murder wrong is whatever suffering the victim goes through, and the mourning of their friends and family. Abortion normally lacks the characteristics that make the loss of human life tragic.
This is one of those issues that is more complex than people make it out to be. Each side has valid points. I actually lean more towards pro-life myself. That being said I realize that women who have unwanted pregnancies are going to find ways to terminate them. At least if abortion is legal it can be done in a way that doesn't harm the mother.
@TheGothicMaria I'll wait until the biological imperative of a 6-9 month old fetus changes before I differentiate or relinquish my opinion based on any categorical subjective desire of the mother. Until then, don't hold your breath.
I don't really think anything can be considered "a person" until it has a consciousness. I would never call a fungi "a person" for example, even though it has a nervous system and reacts to its environment.
Humans don't develop that until quite a long time after birth.
So, well, I don't see much problems with abortion even after birth if the medical situation would warrant it.
I guess I don't really understand how someone can be upset, let alone kill someone over an ordinary abortion?
Sometimes, a child is born in such a state that it will die in a few days, weeks or maybe even months, but will be in a state of agony until it expires.
I don't think it would be morally wrong for a doctor, with the consent of the parents, to just let the infant go to sleep if such a situation occurs.
Or say the child suffer massive brain damage during childbirth. It might be best for all involved to just let go, so to speak.
Abortion after the first trimester or so, removes a being with a heart beat and brain waves. Ten fingers and ten toes. Unless the mother's life is involved, it seems barbaric at least, to abort after this time.
Two examples in one, of the insanity of religion. One, the religious motivation for the murder, and Two, no protection of the doctor inside a church, by any god.
Dr. Tiller never deserved to die, he was a good man, although people say he was a murder which he was not, although people believe a fetus is a person, it is not, it does not contain anything a human has, it does not breath nor does it think
the real monsters the pro lifers make out Tiller to be is that they themselves are worser then that monster
It amazes me that the idiot didn't seem to realize the zygotes and fetuses weren't forcibly removed from the mothers' wombs, it was a choice made by the would-be mothers, not the abortionist. I'm surprised he didn't go around shooting women he suspected had ever had an abortion. *sigh*
@ISDP1337 Myself, anything after the 1st trimester. Legally, after the 2nd trimester. Aborting unborn human life near delivery is a defenseless murder. And most pro abortion supporters, it seems, would agree at that point.
Thank you Scott Roder.. You are the man.
sekateh666 1 month ago
Glad Tiller is dead!!
sekateh666 1 month ago
Pro lifers will fight hard, even kill for a fetus, but once it's born, they don't give two shits about it.
jawsflounderace 1 month ago
Terrorist Christian logic:
all babys go to heven.
abortid babys go to heven.
ther for its bettor to sacrefice urself to save babys... naw dat 'int rite imma blow up a klinik
stinnetbennet 1 month ago
Dr. Tiller was a great man who helped many women who needed the help, he was a great family man, he had a life, a family, a church (obviously) and a job that helped thousands.
To see such a great person being murdered is truly sad. He is my inspiration. He is the reason I will become an abortionist to help women that otherwise wouldn't have access.
missmurder008 1 month ago
Abortion is a sad subject, I wholly agree, but I'm just confused as to why pro-lifers are so obsessed not only with "the baby" but also with controlling another person's body and restricting their choices. It makes about as much sense to restrict a woman's right to reproductive healthcare as it does to restrict a man from prostate and testicular cancer screenings. Since it's not your body, fuck off and let people make a choice for themselves.
swpier29 1 month ago 2
Everyone on here is talking about hoe Religion violates logic, but somehow abortion does not.
Believing in God and a more spiritual perspective on life is a form of mental dilusion and insanity, yet sucking out your baby with a vacuum cleaner and taking it's head out with tongs means your mentally healthy.
So nice to see Americans oon here taking more pride in their second amendment than the most innocent human beings asleep in a womb.
The pro-choice movement is a laugh, Im glad he's dead
kyle887923 2 months ago
I am Pro Life and I can't stand abortion. Dr. Tiller is burning in hell getting what he deserves and Scott Roeder will get what he deserves. Two wrongs do not make one right.
"LIFE" is what happens to you while you are making other plans.
Choose "LIFE"
Save the babies.
mjt19741 2 months ago
"Liberalism is a Mental Disorder"
Zachw2007 2 months ago
@Zachw2007 Conservatism is a Cancer.
dave19941000 2 months ago
@dave19941000 And what, liberalism is chemo? Give me a break.
fretter31 1 month ago
@fretter31 Well atleast Liberal and Social-Democratic countries have equality and strong economies, or did you not notice that Canada, Germany, the Neitherlands and the Scandinavian nations are not in an economic crisis right now. Liberalism is not perfect, but its a hell of a lot better then Conservatism and there is real world evidence to support that claim.
dave19941000 1 month ago
This is so weird for me coming from Europe.
zeldaofarel 3 months ago in playlist More videos from AtheistMediaBlog
right-wing people like he are always about control of all the people, they are not for freedom of speech, freedom of press etc. unless it benefits them! They want their beliefs put into law, so all people, who don't agree with them have no right to live as they'd like. Whereas when the law is liberal, people on the left AND on the right can do what they want, because it's not the governments business to regulate it! It's really strange for me to watch this, because I don't live in the US!
BlueAnn40 5 months ago
@BlueAnn40
that its not true. Both, conservatives n liberals, use the law for their own convenience. Nobody is stupid. Liberals use Hollywood, TV shows, Music Videos and all the media to teach children and teens that being lesbian, bisexual and gay is normal. Conservatives use churches, Fox News, and the Washington times to teach the opposite. America is deeply divided, so Im afraid the next Civil War is coming. One single incident, and that's it. A war between Christians vs Antichristians
trifulquita15 5 months ago
@trifulquita15
Yes, but the fact is that being lesbian or homosexual is normal and is not 'evil'. So in other words, the liberals you claim are teaching this aren't lying. The Conservatives are. There's your problem.
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 4 months ago
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH call me homophobic, but honestly i find disgusting watching 2 men kissing eachother in the street, is not normal, is eeeww. My parents are liberals, they never told me: Hate the fags, hate the dykes. I just don't like it.
trifulquita15 4 months ago
@trifulquita15
Well, luckily, human rights and civil liberties aren't catered to your personal feelings or popular vote. You don't like it, don't watch it. It's as simple as that.
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 4 months ago
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH I don't beleive you. Most of people are intolerant, christian or gay. Christian and gays can use human right s for their convenience.
trifulquita15 4 months ago
@trifulquita15
Yea, I can see how demanding the same rights as straight people is simply 'convenient' for homosexuals. Get your head out of your arse.
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 4 months ago
@trifulquita15
How exactly are homosexuals intolerant against you?
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 4 months ago
@SSTTEEAALLTTHH no, ALL gays and lesbians are tolerants, ALL gays are good people, in fact THEY ALL ARE PERFECT... idiot. Bye Mister "All gays are tolerants". Have a bad day
trifulquita15 4 months ago
@trifulquita15
I asked you a valid question: 'How have homosexuals been intolerant against you?'.
You could have honestly answered, but that probably wouldn't have served your argument that 'they are disgusting' very well, would it? because judging from your response, they probably haven't, which would mean you are throwing a fuzz about nothing.
If you haven't got a leg to stand, get the fuck out. Spare yourself further embarrassment.
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 4 months ago
@trifulquita15 unless they're trying to get you to join i just don't see why you'd care. suppose you've been taught to hate all of which you see. try not using the terms "fag and dyke", perhaps you could educate your parents. murderers, child molesters, racists, etc. are the problem with the world.... not doctors who are providing a service people want, nor those whose sexual beliefs are different then your own. your parents raised you to be an ignorant fuck, hope they're proud.
TheEvelynOwen 4 months ago
@TheEvelynOwen
you said that murderers are the problem with the world. Then why you think this doctor is a hero? because he was providing a service?
- Dr i want to kill my baby, cuz i don't want to spend my money on him. I want to buy a new car.
- How old is the victim?
- 6 months old, is legal, we can kill him
What kind of service is that? This Dr. Mengele should be arrested and all pro-choice criminals should be arrested too.
trifulquita15 4 months ago
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TheEvelynOwen 4 months ago
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TheEvelynOwen 4 months ago
@trifulquita15 He should not have been assassinated; but I can't cry for him and mourn him.
RPenta 4 months ago
It's amazing that these rightwing nuts can't seem to shake their abortion obessession. Beginning with the slaughter of Native peoples, America's been the most violent nation on the face of the Earth. Abortion is something that should be left up to the individual. Keep government out of people's private lives.
Until you rightiwng nuts acknowledge the violence America's committed across the centuries in places like Viet Nam & Iraq, shut the fuck up. What fucking Grade A creeps you all are. Eew.
bapyou 5 months ago
Abortion is the cause of violence against abortion drs. No abortion, no violence.
RepentAmerica454 5 months ago
Someone who is truly "pro-life" would never harm anyone, would never threaten anyone and would certainly never kill anyone. These people care more about a bunch of cells without a brain, without a heart and without any form of life in it than a human being dedicating his entire life to this cause and staying despite threats and harassements. These people disgust me...
MackanK94 9 months ago
One day they'll come a day where the sanctity of life isn't on a sliding scale. We'll love and respect one another regardless of our personal beliefs. We will no longer value the life of a fetus over the life of a fellow brother/sister. We will know that murder is not right - regardless. And no longer will we rejoice at the thought of inflicting pain. I cling to the last threads of hope, one day. It's gotta be better than this, one day. One day, can we?
crysta2k2 10 months ago
So he shoots him in a church? I thought he was a man of god. Biggest hypocrites on earth.
Ramel34 11 months ago 3
Gotta love these pro-life people. They're only pro-life when it comes to the unborn. Scott Roeder was prepared to kill not just Dr. Tiller, but all those who got in his way.
patrickthesaint 1 year ago
Tiller the child killer became his own personal late term abortion lol
robocong7420 1 year ago
@robocong7420
Oh look, you thought that comment was so funny you had to post it twice. Also, it doesn't even make sense.
hitheresunshine 1 year ago
Hitler killed 6 mil Jews and the U.S.A killed 49,551,703 from 1973 to 2010. Jan 16 2011 377 baby die. But that was Not right that some one kill Tiller . The Bible says > Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. ?
dewerbylhserf 1 year ago 2
@dewerbylhserf
Finally, someone who understands that it's not right when someone kills another person! I commend you for your humanity. :D
hitheresunshine 1 year ago
@hitheresunshine Thanks. I did not like what Tiller did, But to kill some one is not right. But NO man is GOD.
dewerbylhserf 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@dewerbylhserf
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." --Luke 6:37
I'm agnostic, but this quote is really something I hold dear to me. It seems, though, that many Christians have forgotten and abandoned it, which saddens me. It's such a good phrase to live by.
hitheresunshine 1 year ago
Now thats what I call a Late term abortion!!
BTW, That little boy has a cute haircut.
flyboymd82 1 year ago
I wonder if MSNBC would have ever done a similar thing for William Long or the Fort Hood Victims. Of course not. MSNBC hates the troops.
StoogeWatcher 1 year ago
I hope that everyone out there knows that Dr. Tiller only performed late-term abortions in cases in which either the child would be born with a severe or fatal defect, or in cases that found the mother to be in danger of being severely injured or killed during delivery.
Shades of grey, people.
hitheresunshine 1 year ago
@hitheresunshine
Tiller the child killer only performed late term abortions if there was a profit to be made in doing so. but now he himself has been aborted lol
robocong7420 1 year ago
@robocong7420
Now, every time that ANYONE performs ANY sort of abortion, there is a profit. Does that make Dr. Tiller any different than any other abortion provider, save for his late-term exceptions?
If you're a "pro-lifer", you're a very bad one, rooting on the death of a human.
hitheresunshine 1 year ago
@hitheresunshine
If you can't laugh at Tiller the child killer getting aborted, then you have no fucking sense of humor! Should I feel sad that Tiller the child killer got his pecker shot off? lolz
robocong7420 1 year ago
@robocong7420
Do you fancy yourself as noble? Do you view yourself as just? Do you think yourself right for laughing at a murder? At the death of a man?
I suppose there's no reasoning with such a sick individual.
Also, he didn't get his 'pecker' shot off. He was shot through the eye at close range. Though facts probably don't matter to someone who so readily throws logic out.
hitheresunshine 1 year ago
@hitheresunshine
Listen, there are a million other late term abortions you could choose to get indignant about, why make such a huge deal out of Tiller the child killer?? And yes it was funny when I first learned Tiller the child killer got his balls shot off.
robocong7420 1 year ago
@robocong7420
When you lose your humanity, do you still deserve to be called human?
hitheresunshine 1 year ago
@hitheresunshine
Was directed at me or toward Tiller the child killer?
robocong7420 1 year ago
@robocong7420
Well, I'm not in a conversation with Tiller, now, am I?
hitheresunshine 1 year ago
@hitheresunshine
Well I'm not the guy driving rusty forceps into the backs of 9 month old babies' heads, am I?
robocong7420 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@hitheresunshine
Was that directed at me or toward Tiller the child killer?
robocong7420 1 year ago
if you do anything in the name of god or .. couse of a god ... thats the definition of evil
tilemacro 1 year ago
i dont approve of somebody comitting a muder.but i approve what scott roeder did.tiller killed inocent kids.great job scott
TheGraphhound 1 year ago
@TheGraphhound
Then you approve of people committing murder.
hitheresunshine 1 year ago
Scott Roeder is a F'n HERO!
AtticusDraco 1 year ago
If anybody follows the Law you should know that 'at Best' the abortion Doctor is 'an accomplice' to the crime (if you regard this a crime) The Mom (mother) is the murderer. It's 'premedatated' as in, the Mom makes an abortion appointment, drives to the clinic, puts on a gown, & opens her legs. If these idiots want to protest & put 'Wanted Posters' up of baby killers, trying protesting outside the Mother's house or putting up 'Wanted Mom' Posters. The docs only providing a service dumbazz..
rleary1 1 year ago
When you base your life on an invisible friend & Slave-Master regardless of all the empirical evidence against said mysticism, you're bound to ignore reality and logic on occasion.
“The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance ... logic can be happily tossed out the window.” --Stephen King
Johnknee1000 1 year ago 26
@Johnknee1000 why do we care about stephen king?
Chslosers 1 year ago
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TheEvelynOwen 4 months ago
I have to commend Scott Roeder's lawyer, for doing his job to the best of his ability, and keeping his feelings about abortion to himself.
radicalbacon 1 year ago
For fucking secularism's sake, this is just like the jailing of Dr. Kevorkian, only far more dangerous. It just shows you how far behind Americans are in terms of social issues compared to other Western countries which came out of the Enlightenment unscathed. That's right, while other countries are focusing their resources on serious topics like the economy or the growing number of fundamentalist Muslim immigrants, Americans are still debating about abortion and euthanasia. Pathetic.
frankystein12 1 year ago
@frankystein12 You forgot about the 'heated' 'Don't Ask Don't Tell' Debate also! Yeah, I was just laid off of my 15 year job but really worry daily about 'Gays Serving in the Military'!!
rleary1 1 year ago
And by the way, I've seen videos and pictures of car accident victims; they didn't convince me that the government should pass laws banning the manufacture, sale and use of automobiles.
gspendlove 1 year ago
@gspendlove car accidents are a risk you take when you drive a car just like owning a gun. Anti-gun folks try to claim that because of gun violence there shouldn't be guns. Well should you ban cars then too? Cars and guns are privileges that result in errors sometimes. You don't play around and having a kid isn't a privilege to either accept or deny. Abortions if anything are the most selfish acts one can commit.
Chslosers 1 year ago
@Chslosers You have your opinion, and I respect it. And believe it or not, I SHARE it. In many instances, abortion is 100% wrong. But you missed my point. It's not for me to dictate to a woman whether or not she may have an abortion. It's none of my business -- and it's not the government's business either. That's what the Supreme Court's decision on Roe v. Wade was all about. And, BTW, I'm not one of those anti-gun people. I'm PRO-2nd Amendment.
gspendlove 1 year ago 8
@gspendlove it would have been worse had every woman who has had an abortion gave birth to an unwantted child. abortion should be legal because every mother should want to be one, and every child should be a wanted child. religious aspects, etc. don't seem to take that into account. people could have their babies, but if it's a pregnancy the mother doesn't want, the child won't be cared for properly. i wonder if religion frowns more on abortion, or abandoned babies?
TheEvelynOwen 4 months ago
@Chslosers
Then do you suggest we ban selfish acts?
hitheresunshine 1 year ago
This is the LOGICAL CONCLUSION of anti-choice thought. IF you believe that a fetus is a person, then the ONLY LOGICAL COURSE OF ACTION is to use whatever means necessary to remove them from harm. Anti-choice folks of all stripes are ALL secretly rejoicing inside at the murder of Dr. Tiller and other abortion-doctors. To them I would just say to crack open a biology text book. And learn why some women sometimes NEED to have abortions. Fetuses are fetuses not persons.
hardinmichael1981 1 year ago
an example of human justice, kill the killer, like that was fair..
LZNico 1 year ago
They always refer to these fetuses like they are people. I have news for the pro-life movement: fetuses are not conscious humans. How in the world can abortion be considered murder?
rafaravioli 1 year ago
@rafaravioli The Christian religion is based on the myth that the universe was created perfectly by a divine being, and that the only thing that makes the universe NOT perfect, is the sins of man. So, the base assumption is - if anything goes wrong - it is someone's fault. So, the fetus (who is without sin) is perfect, and the woman should be punished for either having sex (or being raped), having a dangerous pregnancy, or having a malformed fetus. It's only "murder" if they are innocent.
sinmantyx 1 year ago
@sinmantyx
Actually (and ironically), the Christians believe that every fetus has the 'original sin' before they are even born (therefore, the fetuses are *not* innocent in their worldview). And if they try to tell you that the fetuses do not have the 'original sin', then they are admitting that the fetuses are not humans (because they believe every human has this alleged 'original sin').
rafaravioli 1 year ago
@rafaravioli You would think that - but the excommunication of a nine year old child's mother, and the doctors involved - who performed an abortion because she was going to give birth to twins (risky even for an adult) after being raped by her step-father says otherwise. Funny thing - the father who raped her for three years, creating the horrible situation, didn't get excommunicated. Killing two perfect innocent fetuses that are endangering a child's life is much worse than that aparently.
sinmantyx 1 year ago 2
@sinmantyx soo u watch a robotic sounding guy ( zimmy jones who i think is really a robot) and then you watch the news or the media? yeah ur defiently a illuminati puppet
gotthkid2 1 year ago
@gotthkid2 YEP - I totally have the illuminati's infallable hand up my ass. :) Actually, I haven't actually watched the video yet - I'm just familiar with the case. I clicked on it not knowing it was msnbc.
sinmantyx 1 year ago
@rafaravioli If they really thought of everyone as being equally sinful - a Protestant idea - they would consider everyone's life. Wouldn't they?
sinmantyx 1 year ago
@rafaravioli Please look up the story of twin fetuses communicating with each other and look at abortion pictures. These are babies.
fashionhistorylover 1 year ago
@fashionhistorylover Then why does the census not count them? Why, when a woman has a miscarriage, is there no funeral?
gspendlove 1 year ago
@gspendlove Our culture is not educated on abortion. If you see a video or picture of an abortion it will change your life. I am not saying Dr.Tiller should have been shot but people need to stop thinking of this guy as a hero.
fashionhistorylover 1 year ago
@fashionhistorylover No question, abortion is a terrible, brutal procedure. But we must make sure it is an option available to women. Being a man, I cannot imagine how agonizing a decision it must be for a woman. But it is, and should remain, the woman's decision. It is NOT government's place to legislate this issue, and a million pictures or videos of aborted babies can't change that. Abortion should be safe, legal and rare -- and right or wrong, someone else's abortion is none of our business.
gspendlove 1 year ago
Okay, here's the deal- I'm trying to see if some pro-choice people are working from empathy(mother will be harmed, child is a going to die, child would live horrible life) or if they work from dogma(It's a woman choice to do with her body as she wishes) or if they are naturalistic( A person can do anything they are capable of, morality doesn't apply) You see, I'm pro-choice, but I don't see many people defending the position logically, instead simply shouting choice.
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler "or if they work from dogma(It's a woman choice to do with her body as she wishes)" Sorry, maybe right would be a better word- it's a woman's right to do with her body as she pleases.
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler Quit being silly - the answer to your question is YES. You can't "answer a question' when all your answers are not mutually exclusive to the group you are studying. You could find out what the general percentages were (if you had a budget), but trying to push everyone who self-identifies as "pro-choice" into one of several philosphies on the subject is completely futile.
sinmantyx 1 year ago
You see, I don't think many pro-choice woman are thinkers, but adhere to a doctrine similar to pro-lifers. "It's my body my choice" next to "Jesus said so." I'm trying to see if you can think out your morality beyond statements of offense.
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler , I think the pro-choice position is that no government should have the power to tell a woman that she must carry a child to term. That is an incredible invasion of the government inside the body of a person. If the government has that power, it likely also has the power to compel blood and organ donation from live donors (e.g. kidney donation) which is surely less invasive and risky than childbirth, and benefits persons with names and personalities.
rg0057 1 year ago
@rg0057 Hmm, you know, I don't think it follows all those would happen- it wasn't the case when abortion was illegal. Ps, just to make it clear with everyone I'm really only in contention with the idea it is legal to kill a baby right before birth, but not once it is born. Tearing up early fetuses with no ability to feel pain doesn't bother me.
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler It is against standard medical practice to abort a fetal post-viability unless there is a compelling medical reason. Many times that reason is the fact that the fetus is not developing correctly or because the mother is at great risk. A doctor who performs an abortion post-viability with no medical reason, will lose their license - even if it was legal in that state. At least this is my understanding.
sinmantyx 1 year ago
Behold....the American Taliban.
checkunderyourbed 1 year ago
anti-abortionists are the essence of stupidity
AtheistAdventures 1 year ago
dexter morgan needs to take a trip there. scot would probbably be "informed" how a real vigilante works.
random0moniker 1 year ago
i hope you bible thumpers are fucking happy....idiots...
bassisgood6969 1 year ago
Wait, what about the couples who decided to kill their own baby? If YOU, murderer, says the doctor is responsible for the baby, Ain't their parents even MORE responsible for that? Why don't you kill their parents too?
chropose 1 year ago
@chropose "Ain't their parents even MORE responsible for that? Why don't you kill their parents too?" Funny comment. Well, they likely think that they get more bang for their buck by killing a doctor, and that they would get bad press that way. Also, they view woman as victims hoodwinked by evil doctors(similar to their view on young atheist).
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
Radical Christians who threaten (and actually murder) doctors are just and vile as radical Muslims who threaten (and actually murder) cartoonists. Both are terrorists who need to leave these extreme elements of their beliefs back in the Stone Age where they belong.
ConradoThePirate 1 year ago
Here it goes- I hate the dogmatism of both sides. People shout choice or Jesus, but no one gets down to the nitty gritty of why a person might find abortion wrong or why is is permissible. I'll try to work around those lines. First, as far as I know early term fetuses have no way of feeling pain, as such you at least don't have to take empathy into account, as there is no suffering. Once a baby is able to be born and survive however, inside or out of the womb it is the same as infanticide.
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler Note, saying it is the same as infanticide is not speaking in legal terms, or even on moral terms, but really just pointing out that the difference between the very late term abortion and what is traditionally called infanticide is the location of the act. If a person is against infanticide, but for late term abortion, this would seem a fairly arbitrary morality.
So, if a person is against infanticide I suspect they would be consistent to be against very late term abortions
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler
I believe using the word "elective" describing some of Tiller's late-term abortions led to more controversy than need be. I know a few pro lifers (none as radical as Scott...) who would support postviability late-term abortions if the mother's life or health were at risk (like one of the women shown in the video with a 3% chance of survival) or the fetus itself had such a severe defect it could not survive long outside the womb regardless (such as anencephaly).
satanicwatermelon 1 year ago
@satanicwatermelon And obviously I agree with you on these.
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler I'm really not sure how inside a body and outside a body are "arbitrary". My body is a very specific "location". Implying that my body is interchangeable with any other location is dehumanizing and bizarre.
sinmantyx 1 year ago
@sinmantyx Well, is it like sovereignty- IE, you feel you have complete control over anything and everything within your body? Lets do a little far out test here- what if a baby with the genius of Mozart was in you and in no way harm you, would you then accept the choice to kill it as morally permissible? Note- I'm not a dogmatic moralist- I only choose to do what is empathetic. I am not here to tell people they are wrong, but to search their morality for inconsistencies.
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler @sinmantyx part2 Now your thinking would be consistence with might makes right law- that those with power can use it as they please. I don't think it works from the empathy angle or the human angle(The idea that people should be treated as special, something that can be silly). Of course, feel free to pm me and debate with me privately.
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler MY thinking? What exactly do you think that is? I'm not sure how "might makes right" has anything to do with being annoyed that, as far as you are concerned, a womb inside a human being is the same as a room at Motel 6, a salad bowl, or the third floor of an IKEA. I mean - it's just a location. If "might makes right" is on-topic at all, it's in the context of a sexist society where men hold power and assert that women are just walking incubators - you know - a location.
sinmantyx 1 year ago
@sinmantyx Well, you state so long as a fetus is in your womb you have the ability to do with it as you wish, right? Perhaps might is right isn't the right term, perhaps something close to state rights? I'm trying to work out your morality, what it is exactly. Obvious, morality is man-made and doesn't represent reality, so if you say something is moral it is just as true as anything I make up- we choose the rules we live by. But what rules are they? That's the question
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler No - you are just assuming that's what my stance is. You're assuming this because you THINK that everyone is in one of two extreme camps. Just because I think that a woman's body is NOT just some random location, you think that I believe in complete non-restriction on abortion?! I support the law as it currently is - a woman has a right to an abortion of a non-viable or pre-viable fetus and a right to abortion if maintaining the pregnancy is a threat to her health.
sinmantyx 1 year ago
@sinmantyx "Just because I think that a woman's body is NOT just some random location, you think that I believe in complete non-restriction on abortion?! I " That WAS what my hypothetical was about.
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler The ONLY thing I said was that a BODY is not just like any other location. That's horrible. Apparently, you have never been pregnant because you also assert that the a pregnancy "in no way harm you". A womb is not just a little house. Pregnancy and delivery are generally the most traumatic things to happen to a woman in her life. You are emotionally, psychologically and physical PERMANANTLY changed by it.
sinmantyx 1 year ago
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@sinmantyx "Apparently, you have never been pregnant because you also assert that the a pregnancy "in no way harm you" No, I was saying in the hypothetical you aren't harmed, so it doesn't enter the equation. Of course, all the usual pain is involved.
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler To anwer your question about the "little Mozart" that might be growing in my body. Perhaps, I should have as many children as I can possibly have on the off-chance that one might be a Mozart?! Also, I'm insulted by the idea that fetal GENIUS status means it would be less acceptable to end the pregnancy. Sorry - I'm not a eugenesist.
sinmantyx 1 year ago
@sinmantyx "To anwer your question about the "little Mozart" that might be growing in my body. Perhaps, I should have as many children as I can possibly have on the off-chance that one might be a Mozart?" Now I'm not saying you should take risk based on the probability you might give birth to mozart, here it is a literal genius of small size. Does the fact he is in your body on its own men it is okay within your moral framework to kill him?
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler You know about as much about fetal and childhood development as a shoe lace. :) Nobody gave BIRTH to "Mozart". "Mozart' is the equivalent of a "child star" with a crazy stage mom. How about Einstein? He had a brain defect and didn't speak until he was about five years old. YOU cannot know what the fate of a child is at birth much less during fetal development. So WHAT exactly is your point?
sinmantyx 1 year ago
@sinmantyx As to mozart, I'm not talking about giving birth, but rather challenging the notion that the location of the person changes everything. The image of a genius in the womb is silly and in fact impossible, but I'm using hypotheticals to find out your morality, so excuse the silly image. What I'm saying is, does location change the whole situation on its own?
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler I reject the question, because characterizing a person's body as a "location" is insulting at it's face. If you want to ask if the fetus being inside or outside the mother's body changes the situation on its own - yes, it does. Once the fetus is outside of the mother - there is no consideration for the mother's continued physical health due to the fetus being in there and attached to her. The *whole* situation? - depends on the situation.
sinmantyx 1 year ago
@sinmantyx "Once the fetus is outside of the mother - there is no consideration for the mother's continued physical health due to the fetus being in there and attached to her. The *whole* situation? " Now I get somewhere- the location on its own isn't the game changer, but what it might entail. It isn't just that the baby is in the womb, but that this can cause problems. As you said, you are not for all abortions. Good- finally what I wanted.
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler I've become suspicious that feminist operate under a dogmatic system, but now that this has been put into empathetic terms I can relax. You don't just say "A woman can do anything she wants with the fetus as a right.", but instead "She can do anything to avoid danger." I'm glad to see more than slogans, I just wish you would do more explaining, because pro-life crowds really do think any and all abortions are viewed by you as a right.
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler And while I'm not a pro-lifer, I grew up in that crowd, so I needed to find out what exactly was being said by the pro-life crowd, if it was dogmatic, etc. And while I might accidentally use the language of morality, don't mistake me for a moralist. The ideas of there being things one should or shouldn't do is ridiculous- morals aren't inherent in nature, we make them up to attain what we want or because of ignorance. So, my empathy is really just no more than a desire.
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler The reason that many pro-lifers think that all pro-choice people think all abortions are great and wonderful (and should even be encouraged) is because 1) a vocal minority of pro-choicers actually do feal that way and 2) many pro-lifers lack the ability to have a nuianced opinion or understand one - they live in a black and white world - as do many social conservatives.
sinmantyx 1 year ago
@sinmantyx "many pro-lifers lack the ability to have a nuianced opinion or understand one - they live in a black and white world - as do many social conservatives." True. Sadly there's a lot of baggage growing up that way, and you have to ride yourself of it bit by bit.
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler I understand - trust me - but it goes even deeper than that. I sent you a link to a study that basically shows that social conservatives lack the cognitive ability to deal with conflict in a reasoned way. When confronted with even the simpliest thing outside the norm - they don't fully comprehend it. Obviously - we talking about bell-curves here and not the ENTIRE GROUP - but I'm not making this up. In fact, it disturbs me.
sinmantyx 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler The "safe, legal, and rare" slogan is about as reasonable a "nutshell" as you can get pro-choice majority view into. "Woman's body, woman's right", is simply an acknowledgement that forcing a woman or girl to carry a pregnancy, incurring the toll of that pregnancy against her will, is obscene. Abortion (by definition) occurs before viability, so those talking about healthy 8 mo. fetuses aren't even having the same conversation a majority of the time.
sinmantyx 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler Since you asked - I am "pro-choice" politically for pragmatic reasons. Since forcing a woman to maintain a pregnancy regardless of circumstance is unreasonable, governmental law cannot and should not be used to regulate abortion - since there is a time-sensitive nature to deciding when abortion should be permitted. So, these decisions should be allowed to be made by a women and her doctor according to standard medical practice - privately and swiftly.
sinmantyx 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler The question of MORALITY is a completely different question to me. Do you think it is moral to abort a healthy late-term fetus of a healthy mother - NO. This is also against standard medical practice in the U.S. That is a no-brainer extreme for most people. Ectopic pregnancy - of course you abort. No question there. Most situations aren't that easy, and easy answers don't exist. Generally though - it boils down to least harm.
sinmantyx 1 year ago
@sinmantyx "Most situations aren't that easy, and easy answers don't exist. Generally though - it boils down to least harm. " Now that's what I want- nothing that just sounds like a slogan or an arbitrary right.
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@Ebuverthebicepcurler ...don't be confused though. I think a right to determine what happens to ones body is not "arbitrary" and I treat the legal question and the "what is the right thing to do in this situation" question very differently. I was never as staunchly pro-choice until I experienced pregnancy and delivery. After that, I understood the arguments much better.
sinmantyx 1 year ago
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@sinmantyx "I was never as staunchly pro-choice until I experienced pregnancy and delivery. After that, I understood the arguments much better." I can't exactly do that.
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
pro life? and he murdered someone? hypocricy
lukeism2 1 year ago
Pro-life means nothing to these people. They don't care about life (as demonstrated clearly by this guy).
OukaKisa 1 year ago
All this jackass did was make the women go somewhere else, prolonging the inevitable abortion, or resort to more dangerous methods. He really accomplished nothing in the long run.
kensuke0 1 year ago 4
@kensuke0 Thumbs up, what should be obvious to both sides of the issue- this changes little, abortions still go on.
Ebuverthebicepcurler 1 year ago
@kensuke0 Except getting incarcerated, and accelerating his decline into his own hell.
baoluo1 1 year ago
@kensuke0 Except getting incarcerated, and accelerating his decline into his own peronal hell.
baoluo1 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@kensuke0 Except getting incarcerated, and accelerating his decline into his own personal hell.
baoluo1 1 year ago
All life is sacred and that is why you must die.
Inbred morons.
Nexius8 1 year ago
Apparently killing a human who contributes to society is a good justification over being against abortion...
Are you fucking kidding me?
EvelioEinWindir 1 year ago
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" - You know who.
D4R3W 1 year ago
@D4R3W Voldy!?
FerreThoughts 1 year ago
@FerreThoughts
=D
And here I thought it was Albert Einstein.
satanicwatermelon 1 year ago
Jesus is worst then drugs.
No crackhead is as immoral as a fundamentalist.
I remember this sort of things when a demagogue asks how an atheist can have morals.
UrsoDaCortesia 1 year ago
Jesus is worst then drugs.
No crackhead is as immoral as a fundamentalist.
I remember this sort of things when a demagogue asks how an atheist can have morals.
UrsoDaCortesia 1 year ago
Jesus is worst then drugs.
No crackhead is as immoral as a fundamentalist.
I remember this sort of things when a demagogue asks how an atheist can have morals.
UrsoDaCortesia 1 year ago
Thanks so much for uploading :)
Sykotix1 1 year ago
I hate killing babies.
They taste so much better when you eat them live.
EziekielNightwind 1 year ago
Inorder to talk about abortion we need to talk about what makes murder wrong. If you are religious you believe the person who died is in a happier place. If you aren't religious than you believe that a person who dies ceases to exist. Either way the person who was killed is really no worse off. What makes murder wrong is whatever suffering the victim goes through, and the mourning of their friends and family. Abortion normally lacks the characteristics that make the loss of human life tragic.
TheVofR 1 year ago
This is one of those issues that is more complex than people make it out to be. Each side has valid points. I actually lean more towards pro-life myself. That being said I realize that women who have unwanted pregnancies are going to find ways to terminate them. At least if abortion is legal it can be done in a way that doesn't harm the mother.
TheVofR 1 year ago
@TheGothicMaria I'll wait until the biological imperative of a 6-9 month old fetus changes before I differentiate or relinquish my opinion based on any categorical subjective desire of the mother. Until then, don't hold your breath.
FaganRoberts 1 year ago
I don't really think anything can be considered "a person" until it has a consciousness. I would never call a fungi "a person" for example, even though it has a nervous system and reacts to its environment.
Humans don't develop that until quite a long time after birth.
So, well, I don't see much problems with abortion even after birth if the medical situation would warrant it.
I guess I don't really understand how someone can be upset, let alone kill someone over an ordinary abortion?
Superslemmet 1 year ago
@Superslemmet
Agree with everything you said except for abortion after birth. What medical situation coud possibly warrant an after birth abortion?
ThirdRAILKink 1 year ago
@ThirdRAILKink Well, you know, "mercy killing".
Sometimes, a child is born in such a state that it will die in a few days, weeks or maybe even months, but will be in a state of agony until it expires.
I don't think it would be morally wrong for a doctor, with the consent of the parents, to just let the infant go to sleep if such a situation occurs.
Or say the child suffer massive brain damage during childbirth. It might be best for all involved to just let go, so to speak.
Superslemmet 1 year ago
@Superslemmet
Oh, I got ya. I think you're right.
ThirdRAILKink 1 year ago
Once again a christian contradicts himself!
FUahole69 1 year ago
Abortion after the first trimester or so, removes a being with a heart beat and brain waves. Ten fingers and ten toes. Unless the mother's life is involved, it seems barbaric at least, to abort after this time.
216trixie 1 year ago
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@216trixie So you think its Ok to kill a human being? Whats your point?
Malphar 1 year ago
@216trixie duh. look up the process of getting permission to give or receive a late term abortion.
C0ct0pusPrime 1 year ago
fav'd
AgentOfDoubt 1 year ago
Two examples in one, of the insanity of religion. One, the religious motivation for the murder, and Two, no protection of the doctor inside a church, by any god.
216trixie 1 year ago 44
@216trixie Yes.
EclecticSceptic 1 year ago
a fetus is NOT a child
theaceofspades39 1 year ago 13
Dr. Tiller never deserved to die, he was a good man, although people say he was a murder which he was not, although people believe a fetus is a person, it is not, it does not contain anything a human has, it does not breath nor does it think
the real monsters the pro lifers make out Tiller to be is that they themselves are worser then that monster
riotguards 1 year ago
Don't blame the "climate". The shooter was just a prick.
mylittleturd 1 year ago
It amazes me that the idiot didn't seem to realize the zygotes and fetuses weren't forcibly removed from the mothers' wombs, it was a choice made by the would-be mothers, not the abortionist. I'm surprised he didn't go around shooting women he suspected had ever had an abortion. *sigh*
satanicwatermelon 1 year ago
Pro life atheist here! That's right. We exist. (Nuts shooting nuts)
Late term abortionists and those that kill them are crazy.
FaganRoberts 1 year ago
@FaganRoberts
where do you draw the line though? How do you define what constitutes "late term"?
ISDP1337 1 year ago
@ISDP1337 Myself, anything after the 1st trimester. Legally, after the 2nd trimester. Aborting unborn human life near delivery is a defenseless murder. And most pro abortion supporters, it seems, would agree at that point.
FaganRoberts 1 year ago