Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie, Beethoven 3. 2nd Mvt - Part 1

[sickandtwisted058]

Thanks for reminding me why i don't scroll the comments. Take it easy guys

[sakkiemekok]

@sickandtwisted058 Please don´t take my comment to mean I don´t like this recording, because I do, and I also I think Mr Jarvi does a brilliant job of directing the piece. My comment was simply a critic of his style. It´s just a personal preference, that´s all. Others will disagree with me, but that´s fine. To each his own I say.

[sakkiemekok]

Forgive me, but I´ve never been a fan of "acting" conductors. Bernstein and Jarvi are good examples. My kind are the Horst Stein´s of this world, conductors who aren´t trying desparately to get the producers attention. Pointing fingers at the upcoming instument players is totally unnecessary. They know when they are on, and unless they´ve nodded off, it´s pointless showmanship. It´s about the music, not the conductor. I wish they would understand that.

[TheJameScott]

Me likey a lot. lolz... too bad it was spoiled a bit by those stupid argumenative comments.. i just wanted to listen to the wonderful music and read others lovely comments... oh well...

[FruitMeate]

@TheJameScott Totally agree. Arguing over preference in interpretation on a youtube comment thread is kind of silly; just go find your favorite recording and enjoy Beethoven's wonderful music and quit worrying about other people who are "wrong on the internet."

[deathperseverance]

Great!!!

[rr7firefly1]

Fantastic editing: it's breathtaking to see these musicians bowing across the strings of their instruments. And other instruments as well. These visuals bring the meaning of orchestra into very graphic form. Just lovely.

[vfgtykjuvbhjk]

outstanding performance. bravo!!!

[tygerrawrs]

Do you guys see that look Järvi gives just before he begins the movement? It's a look that says "Oh this is going to be good." And it is good! It's superb!

[alejoeisabel]

I like the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra with Maestro Dudamel better. According to Dudamel no two performances are identical EVER. All musical scores require INTERPRETATION. A score is not a computer program. Watch Dudamel in his rehersals. This years LA Phil is different from last years LA Phil as will next years LA Phil. Dudamel is a Latin Beethoven with hair and all. HE IS THE REAL DEAL.

[colinmusik]

min 6:09 rips my heart out every time

[mrmirth]

Curiousity Implores me, Did this composition transcend through Napoleon's mind during the critical moments of Waterloo...

[alejoeisabel]

The best interpretation of the second movement is by Dudamel and the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela. Its on DVD by Deutche Grammaphone. Such a deep feeling. I can imagine Dudamel telling the SBYO musicians, this the funeral of your mother, and you are so sad.

[301250]

Great as Jarvi is, one must never forget this great orchestra who is actually producing the sounds here that we are all enjoying...superb performance of the marche funebre with the gravitas that it deserves.

[davlor86]

I love Beethoven, his music never bores me

[PinkRhinosaurus]

Best Beethoven ever.

[porfirij]

Nice but way too fast...

[kidcider3]

its a funeral march.

[porfirij]

What the heck are you trying to tell me? Do you think i'm not aware of that?

Yes, it's a FUNERAL march! That's why it's supposed to be SLOWER, numbnut.

Look for Klemperer and Toscanini - they conducted it in an appropriate way.

[kidcider3]

Appropriate? Since when did opinion become "appropriate vs inappropriate?" Jarvi took it at a good tempo. Maybe leaning on the fast side just a tad, but overall he took it at a typical "military funeral march" tempo. I was just stating it like "of course, ..." I like it slower but I like this speed probably the best.

[Nachtmarchen]

It's not the tempo that's the problem, it's the way it's played, the micro-dynamics - way too lively, the fugue theme is jagged, almost dance-like.

[Znoxwl]

Maybe that's why Jarvi's music is so special. :)

[oboistru]

How arrogant. You sound very childish. "appropriate"... that's what you say when you don't have anything esle to say.

[Nachtmarchen]

Klemperer doesn't take that much longer, during the 50s the march took him just short of 14 minutes. He just applies more legato.

[EdiEllerymissing]

That's not true. Acording to the last studies, slow tempos were faster on Beethoven's time. Klemperer and Toscanini were from an old conductors school. They use to conduct music a lot slower than it was supose to be played. I'm not saying that's good or wrong, is just diferent. The fact is, Beethoven metronome mark is 1/8=60. So Järvi is on the right time.

[lutantube]

in my score 1/8 = 80 mm

[EdiEllerymissing]

Then it should be faster.

[alejoeisabel]

@EdiEllerymissing Check out Dudamel and the SBYO doing it. IMHO its way better. Find it and respond.

[EdiEllerymissing]

@alejoeisabel Are you kidding me? BETTER THAN JAARVI??? Jajajaja! No way. I'm not gonna discuss something like that.

[alejoeisabel]

@EdiEllerymissing I do not make this stuff up. The DVD is by Deutsche Gramophone. Its called "The Promise of Music." It is about the Simon Bolivar's debut in the Bonn Beethoven Festaval. You may get it at your library. The best 2nd movement ever.

[alejoeisabel]

@EdiEllerymissing Perhaps you have never heard of Gustavo Dudamel. He has been described as the 'one in a century musician.'

[EdiEllerymissing]

@alejoeisabel Jajajaja! You know, I actually met him in person last year in my School. I've seen that video already. He's not the "one in a century musician", he's a commercial product made up by DeustcheGramaphone. I don't want to discuss about that. That's not music, that's money. Bad music with makeup. If you want to hear a good version then listen to John Elliot Gardiner or this. This is art, Dudamel is just MONEY. I've been a musician for enough time to be able to distinguish.

[alejoeisabel]

@EdiEllerymissing My friend, you have opened my eyes. John Elliot Gardiner is extraordinary, albeit, much older than Gustavo Dudamel. My fears about Maestro Dudamel, is what Maestro Barenboim said, "I hope that the United States does not spoil him." Maestro Dudamel still has impressive humility, and continues to return to his provincial town in Venezuela to give master classes and conduct orchestras. He is committed to give back to his country that gave him so much.

[Elainelps0421]

@alejoeisabel I love Gustavo Dudamel. He's my current favorite. I watched him conduct the Israeli Philharmonic...at one point, only using his swiveling hips and no hands! They knew exactly what he wanted :)

[alejoeisabel]

@Elainelps0421 He too is my favorite conductor. Some are saying the the LA Phil is already the best orchestra in the USA.

With regard to the Israel Philharmonic, when I first heard that Dudamel was invited to conduct, I was LMAO. Most of the orchestra musicians are virtuosi; thus, difficult to conduct. They must have thought, "the boycott must be working, they got a twenty somthing Latino. Hoivey!" But little did they know.

[Elainelps0421]

@alejoeisabel Hahahaha! I so agree, my friend :)

[22conductor]

Toscanini was relatively fanatical about 'following the score' putting him in the same boat as Klemperer regarding tempo issues is trying to say oil and water are the same thing. Agreed Jarvi is fantastically spot on. Love this concert.

[Elainelps0421]

@porfirij With all due respect, can you show me the rule book and page number saying funeral marches should be slow? And define "slow." Remember, we are talking about Beethoven here. He may not necessarily agree with you.

[porfirij]

@Elainelps0421 with all due respect, but if you really need a rule book to know that a funeral march is supposed to be slow you clearly lack common sense:

"A funeral march (Marche funèbre, Trauermarsch) is a march, usually in a minor key, in a slow "simple duple" metre, imitating the solemn pace of a funeral procession." (Wiki)

And Beethoven told me this one here is a little too fast! Immerhin gehe ich fast täglich an seinem Geburtshaus vorbei...

[Elainelps0421]

@porfirij Wiki is not a definitve source for musical definitions or rules for musical composition. To be honest, the only way to know for sure if Beethoven approved of the tempo is to raise him from the dead and ask him personally.  Until then, it is only our personal opinions and preferences that we can express and if these opinions reflect current research on the topic. I still say Beethoven was a musical rebel and an experimenter. I doubt dictionary definitions interested him much at all.

[porfirij]

@Elainelps0421 also the description of symphony 3, 2nd movement, marcia funebre in c-minor says: "adagio assai" what translates to "very slow". so stop trying to be funny or clever and stow it!

[Elainelps0421]

@porfirij Okay, I am sitting here with my trusty metronome, a copy of the 1st violin part to the Eroica....it says an eighth note is equal to 80....so I set my metronome to 80, play Jarvi's version of the 2nd movement of the Eroica and voila! It matches EXACTLY! The publisher has the metronome marking at 80.....so Jarvi is following it exactly...he is not too fast.

[porfirij]

@Elainelps0421 so he's not too fast according to the publisher of YOUR VERSION. so what? never argued that.

however, the ORIGINAL says "adagio assai" and not 80 bpm! adagio (slowly) is ~ 65-75 bpm. "assai", as mentioned before means "very". do the math and get a new publisher.

and tho' i agree that Wiki is hardly a definitive source for this, i can't believe that you still want to deny that a funeral march is supposed to be slow. still common sense, or look it up in any book about music history.

[Elainelps0421]

@porfirij "My" version is Kalmus and it, too, says Adagio assai, and right next to that, it says an eighth note is equal to 80. Most major symphony orchestras use Kalmus. The only original is the one Beethoven wrote with his own hand. I think Jarvi's version of the funeral march is exactly as it should be performed--exacly as the score asks.

[porfirij]

@Elainelps0421 "most MAJOR symphony orchestras use Kalmus" - hilarious, i'd like to see your source for that.

"adagio assai" is NOT 80 bpm (in fact a 19th century mälzel's metronome suggests 60 bpm - and mälzel was on familiar terms with beethoven, who wanted a more precise tempo definition).

just listen to conductor geniuses like klemperer and toscanini. but most likely you will tell me they are amateurs compared to järvi... ridiculous!

[Elainelps0421]

@porfirij This is getting absurd....How many publishers publish the parts for Eroica? Each time I've played it, It has always been Kalmus. The Philadelphia Orchestra uses Kalmus. I am making an educated guess that most use it because it's a trusted version which is easy to read and may be the most widely accepted, if not the most easily accessible version. Don't forget, a marking of an eighth note equalling 80 suggests that it is actually 40 bpm, since the time signature is 2/4.

[porfirij]

@Elainelps0421 pathetic! i present historically relevant facts (mälzel's metronome / famous conductors) to support my point while your only argument is: kalmus!

actually quite amusing how you keep ignoring that to avoid admitting that you might be wrong. sure, a conducter is free to do it as fast as he wants but historically correct / appropriate is slower - my point is yet to be disproved.

also, there are MANY publishers for classical scores in europe so your guess is not educated at all.

[Elainelps0421]

@porfirij Now in case you didn't know, I'm going to explain something to you: Tempo markings such as "adagio assai" are general terms. Metronome markings in scores and parts are specific and that is what interpreters of music look for when interpreting an orchestral work. I suggest you look at your score if you have one of this symphony and see what the metronome marking is. Now stop this silly bickering. Do some meaningful research and come back and we'll talk.

[porfirij]

@Elainelps0421

in case you didn't notice, i was the one who had arguments based on facts / history. so stop pretending to explain things i just made you aware of.

look up mälzel, his relation to beethoven and his metronome. also listen to furtwängler's marcia funebre here on youtube.

get your basics straight before claiming things like "funeral marches aren't slow" or "kalmus is used by most orchestras" - you're ridiculing yourself.

[Elainelps0421]

@porfirij I am done with your silly arguments. They make no sense and it is not I embarrassing myself, but you. Please don't bother to respond to my comments anymore, because I won't waste my time responding. You really have no idea what you are talking about.

[porfirij]

@Elainelps0421

finally a statement i agree with - this is pointless! if my arguments really make no sense to you, if you don't even get those basics, it is hopeless anyway.

so i'm with furtwängler, klemperer, toscanini, karajan... and you're with järvi and kalmus. that's just fine.

but please remember that YOU started ridiculing yourself by responding to MY comments not the other way around, gran. and now keep your word, stfu and enjoy the music...

[Elainelps0421]

@porfirij Gran? As in grandma?? I doubt your grandma looks like me. I like all of the conductors you mention, but Jarvi conducts it exactly as the score requests, which means he is following the composer's orders, or at least what we know of them. To me, this is the most important thing: Staying close to what the composer wanted it to sound like. And, please, getting nasty and angry is not necessary, so watch your tongue, or I shall be forced to smack you with my walker ;)  Have a nice life

[porfirij]

@Elainelps0421

you promised not to reply! and still you're missing the point. järvi is NOT following the COMPOSER'S order, he's following the publisher's order, that's a huge difference!

beethoven says adagio assai and not 1/8 = 80! obviously furtwängler & klemperer had a different score and a better understanding of beethoven than järvi.

the contemporary metronome also suggests it, but i'm repeating myself here, i already know you will still ignore / not get it.

anyway, have a nice life, too.

[EdiEllerymissing]

Why are you getting thumbs down? I mean, it's true, it's a funeral march, that's what says on the score...

[cheezbawl2003]

Fantastic recording, it must be said.

[vaotomauma]

The first mov. is the best! Better than karajan's version!

[logenisti]

Music making at it's best!!!