Re: Dialogue on Metaphor #2

[winefuly]

One would like to say that language is symbolic expression:interpretaion of what we perceive....which "IN" language is described mainly by the metaphor and metonymy..that is to say language is like Metaphor + Metonymy of reality..i know its argument from analogy but is there a prob in this?:

language derives from the ability to create analogy.

hmmm, Why do we have such problems with the concept of arguments from analogy, when all arguments are base on language which is based on analogy?

[mrmike9959]

We are able to deliberately re-map new conceptual problems onto our older problem solving machinery in the brain, enabling us to 'see' the passage

of time (from left to right in a conventional diagram) or 'understand' scientific data using graphs, diagrams etc. He uses the example of 'seeing' the spread of an epidemic by sticking coloured pins in a map, making use of our advanced spacial/visual/color recognition abilities to understand it.

[mrmike9959]

This is fascinating stuff. I think Dennett's work is useful to bring up here as a means to understand the deep evolutionary embededness of metaphor and re-presentation in the brain. Dennett in 'Kinds of Minds' would say that this ability to transform 'representation' into further 're-representations' is one of the key driving forces in the explosion of intelligence.

[shakeyourdimsims]

hes hittin it

[loveisallneed]

Metaphor is wired in our brain, it's how we understand, IMO.

[conferencereport]

There is a real limitation to natural language when trying to express scientific concepts. I would argue that because language replicates (or maybe simulates) the (largely egocentric) conditions of lived experience it embodies something like Folk Physics, and is inherently handicapped from expressing decentred 'objective' information. A bit like trying to describe a spiral staircase with your hands in your pockets.

[conferencereport]

I would also say that the distinction which is usually made between expressions which are figurative and those which are literal does not capture the status of scientific statements. There seems to be good evidence that the understanding we have of the world that we call 'science' (and mathematics) is constructed through figurations like metaphor, but these figurations are uniquely coherent and give predictions in a way that literary and most conceptual metaphors cannot.

[hyperseauton]

to deconstruct the poor guy on representational levels of high school arithmetic is stealing candy from a child. sorry, not cool.

[alteringenting]

He's point is not about mataphore as such but how the sciences are dependent upon them. Why the arrogance?

[alteringenting]

I am not sure you are getting his point. What is your point? That everything is metafore? That is'nt what he was arguing against. That's a pretty shalow point. Everything is metaphore... Wow!!!

[Professoranton]

I agree. and I am sorry. I said the same to Pmathematica. I was tired and reluctant but wanted to respond to his video. The concern, or argument, is that many people who put the hard sciences on a pedestal do not realize their own arrogance. I simply want more close attention to the language and for people to recognize the ubiquity of metaphor.

I unfortunately can't take back the snotty attitude on the vid but I agree that I don't like it either.

[alteringenting]

shit happens

[dewonthegrass]

Science (and everyday language) cannot do without metaphors.

[cardellacole2]

the whole of science is that measurement supports the hypothesis and number is a concept and if you dont believe in number as a key concept a belief , then you dont believe in science, so is science all superstition based on the belief in numbers

[theosophers]

No, is the short answer to your quesion.

[cardellacole2]

what is number ?

[theosophers]

Numbers are words that name quantities. They also name the ordinality of events, like first, second, third, etc...

It is interesting to note that the physical quantity mass, is a dimentionless unit. It reduces to the actual number of atomic units present. Which are neutron mass equivalents.

I think that is a neat standard of measure!

[cardellacole2]

thats beautiful

[Lover180backflip]

You two are a diabolical team

= - ]

[lysergicaddict]

nice fusion. great work as usual :) what is a meta for?

[Ramiiam]

Is Valerie on youtube?

[WickedJargon]

4 8ths? it's 8 4ths.

[pfarabee]

??? He said one half... is four eighths... which is correct...

[theosophers]

A metaphor cites one process as representing another.

Why attribute all figures of speech to metaphor? Doesn't that make the word useless?

[jedimasterbooboo]

How does it make it useless?

[theosophers]

Well, hyperbole is considered a kind of metapor, but it is more properly an exaggeration.

For instance someone might say that "Bill is getting a bit heavy, he must weigh 200 pounds now." Someone responds "2,000 is more like it!"

That is an exaggeration which is not a metaphor, it is simply a hyperbolic response.....

[jedimasterbooboo]

So your original comment, though said why attribute all figures of speech to metaphor, doesn't that make it useless? And then I asked, 'how does that make it useless?' and now you're simply talking about hyperbole and exaggerations, so I'm not following.

[theosophers]

If we must call true metaphors and hyperbolies metaphors, then how do we know we are talking about a hyperbole when it fits the definition of an hyperbole.

Say we had to use one definition for every word in the dictionary. Then one should be able to repeat one word, over and over to make descriptive paragraphs. But we don't do that metaphor, hyperbole, simmilie, ect.. have unique definitions which are useful...

[jedimasterbooboo]

Right so metaphors are not useless.

[theosophers]

Of course metaphors are useful, but not everything is a metaphor. If every word and phrase and sentence and paragraph and book and bible, was a metaphor....

Then a good synonym for metaphor would be "word". The word, "word", is used in all those ways. But we would need a new word for metaphor, if it simply meant 'word'.

[23discordians]

Perhapse calling it all useless was an example of hyperbole.

[theosophers]

That was not what was meant. If metaphor has definition that is so broad that every fragment of language is a metaphor then there is no use for the word. Metaphor has a definition that is useful and it is limited.

Immigrants are always trying to reinvent english. But, to just pick a technical term and redfine it so that it applies everywhere, is a cheap trick to sell books, and reduce the effectiveness of language...

[23discordians]

I realise that now I have read the rest of the conversation. It is an interesting argument you make. I, on the other hand, was just being a bit facetious.

[jedimasterbooboo]

Standing O.

[SpiritualAtheist]

Okay, I just have to ask. Are you guys married?