I see the opening scene...the simulation test...as symbolic. The acting is a caricature of the horrible predecessor. But the British guy who makes a distress transmission sounds like he is actually in trouble. It is as if a two dimensional Star Trek universe is being dragged almost against its will into the third dimension. And although Spock's death is an act, it is also symbolic of....well, nevermind. I'm just excited about this movie!
Hey man, this is the best review I've ever seen you do and is the best I've seen for this movie. I don't suppose this is available anywhere as a direct download? I'd like to put it with my Star Trek collection.
I mentioned this before, but since you've reposted the review, and the same issue persists, I'll mention it again: Nimoy did not agree to be in the movie only if Spock could die. In fact, he was apprehensive about Spock dying, though mostly because he wasn't sure it would be done properly. As he says in his book "I Am Spock", he did, in fact, want to be part of the movie, and it was Paramount that believed he didn't because of his previous book "I Am Not Spock."
while TWOK is one of my favorite trek movies, and movies in general, I can't help but have a few huge questions. The Ceti Alpha system was apparently surveyed well enough for them to think one of the planets was suitable for genesis testing. Yet they didn't notice a missing planet as they approached the system? Didn't notice that the orbits of the planets that were there didn't quite match previous surveys?
@michealhunt001 due to character limitations I needed to split this into two comments. Did Kirk not report the "Space Seed" incident? You'd think if he had starfleet would have flagged the ceti alpha system in their database so that any approaching starfleet vessel would be aware of the dangers of the inhabitants.
Interesting, you didn't include any action scenes in this trailer... okay, well one of those could be considered an action scene (Enterprise approaching the nebula), but it didn't seem that way due to the cut and music.
I expected Reliant's phasers striking the secondary hull of Enterprise the moment the music changes tempo ;)
So happy that this review is back. I missed it :-)
Although for me First Contact is more enjoyable to watch (more action, a bigger threat, and most importantly character that are better known to me), I am absolutely convinced that Khan is the absolute best Star Trek movie ever made.
And the beauty of this review is that it makes clear why it's the best ST movie ever made. Really an amazing review with all the references to Moby Dick, Paradise Lost and Kig Lear in the movie made clear.
You had that flipped-off-at-a-red-light thing happen this month, too? Didn't it happen the month you posted the review originally? Some coincidence! :P
What is the reaionale for writing Threshold out of canon? I've heard people do so because "We REALLY don't like it," but nothing substantive, however thinly.
@aperson22222 Because it's retarded. I mean, going faster than Warp 10 turns you into a salamander? Ummmmmm, we've gone faster than that multiple times with no deleterious affects.
@tgbotg They'd exceeded Warp 10 before but they'd never reached infinite velocity. In "Threshold" they used to two interchangeably, and long before it came out the first edition of the Star Trek Encyclopedia also made it clear that they're one and the same, but when they did Warp 10 in "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" or even Warp 13 in "All Good Things," their speed was finite.
More to the point, that still falls into "It's not canon because we don't like it." Is there something concrete?
@aperson22222 I know this, what I'm saying is, it may be considered noncanon because of its total lack of continuity. It is my understanding that TOS's warp scale is different from TNG era's warp scale. That said, they still went faster than Warp 10 when using transwarp: the Borg, the Voth, the Enterprise D in All Good Things, et al. So what happens in Threshold makes no sense based on this. Are you looking for more? Like a comment from Rick Berman?
@tgbotg It's a non-canon fan assumption since in TOS the Enterprise went beyond warp 10 on a few occasions, with no ill effects
The E-D in the TNG finale is believed to be using a revamped warp scale since "Warp 9.99999999994988741" would be too clunky
Transwarp is a completely different animal in terms of propulsion, note the green (in Endgame 'Blue') goodness in Voyager, when it's seen, so it's not bound by the same rules as vanilla warp drive
@tgbotg I've heard of that alleged redoing of the warp scale. I don't recall it ever being mentioned onscreen. I guess I'm looking for someone making a reference that's incompatible with something established in "Threshold," forcing the viewer to choose between "Threshold" and whatever the source of the contradictory statement was--like the bit about Spock saying that Kirk's promotion took him out of the running for captain that brought this up.
Couldn't someone beat the Kobayashi Maru scenario by simply *not* going in to rescue the ship? I don't see how Starfleet could hold it against an officer for choosing not to violate a treaty.
@PCMechanic You don't win that way, you let a bunch of people die. Starfleet might not hold it against you. Just like they might not hold it against you when you go in and try to rescue them. If you beat the klingons, you probably start a war, if you don't, you die.I think it is pretty no-win to me.
@EatThePath2 Yes, but by ignoring the distress call and not going in for the rescue, you end up with an intact ship, no injuries or casualties amongst your crew, no treaties being broken and an interstellar war averted.
@PCMechanic Letting people die to play it safe may be prudent, but I'd hardly call it a win. Just because you're not on your ship doesn't change that. they didn't, and couldn't, know the klingons were watching and waiting, so thats all it would be, prudence. Assuming its not cowardice, anyway.
Assuming I'm remembering the scene correctly anyway.
@PCMechanic To make it a real no win I'm guessing there's something in the premise that means you HAVE to save the ship. It's carrying a VIP or some cargo or information that can't fall into enemy hands. It's carrying someone else's ambassador on secret negotiations and if he's lost the Feds end up at war with his species. Failing to rescue the ship violates a treaty obligation to a Federation member and precipitates a secession crisis. There are ways to do it.
Even if there isn't much new, it's still a great review. The jokes are spot on and the serious parts give me chills, especially when you read Moby Dick. Definitely one of my favorite reviews and one of my favorite movies.
It's funny. You first uploaded this review on my birthday, which was two days ago. It was a really pleasant surprise to watch it after coming home from work and waiting to go out for dinner. It would have been hilariously awesome if you had re-uploaded it on my birthday, but c'est la vie. I'm glad I can watch it again whenever I want, for it's one of my favorite examples of your work.
@dwayne0t I watched the scene where Khan said his name several times. It is, of course, difficult to be completely certain when someone has an accent and is speaking quietly, but I am certain he said "yo" at the beginning of the name. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but I've done my best to imitate Khan's pronunciation.
@dwayne0t Also, it really is a German name, and there it is pronounced completely different than Khan says it in the movie ("io-a-hrrim"?). The syllables match though.
For details: The sounds used for "J" and "ch" don't occur in English at all. So the sounds Khan uses instead are approximations, which are somewhat similar, but still quite far of. The vowels aren't the same either, this goes especially for the "o", which should be more like in "North" and not like in "No" like Khan says it.
@Herbarius I've got to correct myself on this... The "J" sound does occur in English, it's like the y in "yes"... however, if I remember correctly, Khan pronounces it like the j in "just"
A plot hole I'd like to point out-why didn't McCoy scan Chekov and Terrell with his tricorder when Chekov spoke of Khan putting "creatures inside our bodies to control our minds"? It was only after the redshirt and Terrell were vaporized that he broke out the tricorder to scan Chekov for the Ceti eel (and then after Chekov had passed out!). I guess McCoy drank too much windshield wiper fluid before beaming down to the space station with Kirk and Saavik XD
@All2Meme The windshield wiper fluid I was talking about was the Romulan ale that was in the early part of the movie. Maybe it makes him forget his medical training; it might explain the kung-fu resuscitation technique he used on the Klingon chancellor Gorkon in Star Trek VI after drinking Romulan ale at the formal dinner earlier that night.
I asked before in the old video before it got deleted, and it's something that weighs heavily on my mind when I watch this movie. Would Star Trek as a whole be better off if they stopped with TWOK, the media generally considered to be the franchise's shining moment? Certainly, parts of TNG and DS9 would be missed, but we'd be spared the lows of Voyager and Enterprise, and the later movies. Would the nostalgia of TOS, the ambition of TMP, and the quality of TWOK been enough to satisfy us?
@thunderphoenix440 No. I grew up on TNG, came home from school and ploped down for an Episode. It's invalid to argue that since sucky stuff came later they should've stopped when it was 'good'. Also some good did come later like the Borg, Picard, and DS9. Also of whole whole new generations got the chance to get into it as well. If they just left it as you suggest it would've no doubt simply died away.
@thunderphoenix440 Star Trek II, III and IV are considered to be the trilogy. Many also like VI, which I believe is a fantastic movie. I believe those 4 movies really defined the TOS movie era.
I remember vague being a kid and hearing the rumor that Spock was going to die in this movie. That I couldn't see how they could do it in a way that wouldn't suck. Then leaving the theater and feeling Spock's death was sad but well done. I love how you scored it.
in my opinion, your best review, i absolutely loved how you showed the references to other literary work and went into detail for the behind the scenes tribbleations
very well done and it is so good to see this review up again, to bad youtube doesnt understand fair use
There's not much new stuff, a few jokes here and there, but the audio will be clearer and as always it's available in HD.
I found a small glitch near the end of Part 3 - fixing it will delay things another hour and a half at least, so when it's ready I'll post it as-is, and during the night tonight I'll fix it.
I see the opening scene...the simulation test...as symbolic. The acting is a caricature of the horrible predecessor. But the British guy who makes a distress transmission sounds like he is actually in trouble. It is as if a two dimensional Star Trek universe is being dragged almost against its will into the third dimension. And although Spock's death is an act, it is also symbolic of....well, nevermind. I'm just excited about this movie!
HighProphetOfRegret 1 week ago
Kirstie Alley was so hot back on those days... 30 years ago.
Great review.... I just finished reading Paradise Lost and King Lear for school and it was refreshing to see you using them in this context.
playadominical 7 months ago
Hey man, this is the best review I've ever seen you do and is the best I've seen for this movie. I don't suppose this is available anywhere as a direct download? I'd like to put it with my Star Trek collection.
finalfrontier1701 7 months ago
I mentioned this before, but since you've reposted the review, and the same issue persists, I'll mention it again: Nimoy did not agree to be in the movie only if Spock could die. In fact, he was apprehensive about Spock dying, though mostly because he wasn't sure it would be done properly. As he says in his book "I Am Spock", he did, in fact, want to be part of the movie, and it was Paramount that believed he didn't because of his previous book "I Am Not Spock."
Jallorn 7 months ago
while TWOK is one of my favorite trek movies, and movies in general, I can't help but have a few huge questions. The Ceti Alpha system was apparently surveyed well enough for them to think one of the planets was suitable for genesis testing. Yet they didn't notice a missing planet as they approached the system? Didn't notice that the orbits of the planets that were there didn't quite match previous surveys?
michealhunt001 7 months ago
@michealhunt001 due to character limitations I needed to split this into two comments. Did Kirk not report the "Space Seed" incident? You'd think if he had starfleet would have flagged the ceti alpha system in their database so that any approaching starfleet vessel would be aware of the dangers of the inhabitants.
michealhunt001 7 months ago
@michealhunt001 dude, it's a movie. not real life. geez
playadominical 7 months ago
Would you hold that this film is the absolue best thing with the "Star Trek" name on it?
Or do you have a personal favourite above it?
TheJboy88 7 months ago
@TheJboy88 I don't know if that's addressed to Chuck or an open question. If the latter I see it tied for first with "Best of Both Worlds."
aperson22222 7 months ago
something a little ironic, I seem to recall seeing a Moby Dick movie where the part of Captain Ahab was played by Patrick Stewart.
wakeangel2001 7 months ago
I think this is the best review you've done. It showed me that you're not only a funny reviewer but can do serious criticism as well.
Joekitty001 7 months ago
Interesting, you didn't include any action scenes in this trailer... okay, well one of those could be considered an action scene (Enterprise approaching the nebula), but it didn't seem that way due to the cut and music.
I expected Reliant's phasers striking the secondary hull of Enterprise the moment the music changes tempo ;)
Herbarius 7 months ago
"...That it has more action [than TMP] is"
inevitable?
"irrelevant"
That too.
KatayokoNoTenshi 7 months ago
So happy that this review is back. I missed it :-)
Although for me First Contact is more enjoyable to watch (more action, a bigger threat, and most importantly character that are better known to me), I am absolutely convinced that Khan is the absolute best Star Trek movie ever made.
And the beauty of this review is that it makes clear why it's the best ST movie ever made. Really an amazing review with all the references to Moby Dick, Paradise Lost and Kig Lear in the movie made clear.
MaxRawhide 7 months ago
You had that flipped-off-at-a-red-light thing happen this month, too? Didn't it happen the month you posted the review originally? Some coincidence! :P
aperson22222 7 months ago
What is the reaionale for writing Threshold out of canon? I've heard people do so because "We REALLY don't like it," but nothing substantive, however thinly.
aperson22222 7 months ago
@aperson22222 Because it's retarded. I mean, going faster than Warp 10 turns you into a salamander? Ummmmmm, we've gone faster than that multiple times with no deleterious affects.
tgbotg 7 months ago
@tgbotg They'd exceeded Warp 10 before but they'd never reached infinite velocity. In "Threshold" they used to two interchangeably, and long before it came out the first edition of the Star Trek Encyclopedia also made it clear that they're one and the same, but when they did Warp 10 in "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" or even Warp 13 in "All Good Things," their speed was finite.
More to the point, that still falls into "It's not canon because we don't like it." Is there something concrete?
aperson22222 7 months ago
@aperson22222 I know this, what I'm saying is, it may be considered noncanon because of its total lack of continuity. It is my understanding that TOS's warp scale is different from TNG era's warp scale. That said, they still went faster than Warp 10 when using transwarp: the Borg, the Voth, the Enterprise D in All Good Things, et al. So what happens in Threshold makes no sense based on this. Are you looking for more? Like a comment from Rick Berman?
tgbotg 7 months ago
@tgbotg It's a non-canon fan assumption since in TOS the Enterprise went beyond warp 10 on a few occasions, with no ill effects
The E-D in the TNG finale is believed to be using a revamped warp scale since "Warp 9.99999999994988741" would be too clunky
Transwarp is a completely different animal in terms of propulsion, note the green (in Endgame 'Blue') goodness in Voyager, when it's seen, so it's not bound by the same rules as vanilla warp drive
FedRebel 7 months ago
@tgbotg I've heard of that alleged redoing of the warp scale. I don't recall it ever being mentioned onscreen. I guess I'm looking for someone making a reference that's incompatible with something established in "Threshold," forcing the viewer to choose between "Threshold" and whatever the source of the contradictory statement was--like the bit about Spock saying that Kirk's promotion took him out of the running for captain that brought this up.
aperson22222 7 months ago
did you know there is a moby dick qote in portal
laok 7 months ago
Love the TNG-era series, and some of TOS movies. Could never get into Khan though. Partly because I can't accept Ricardo Montalbán as a badass.
Like Kramer, I prefer The Search for Spock.
RealH0rr0rsh0w 7 months ago
I am currently reading Nimoy´s second "I am Spock" very interesting read!!
sabuinthahouse 7 months ago
Paradise Lost and Dante's Inferno? Bloody hell no wonder he got so obsessed.
KatayokoNoTenshi 7 months ago
Couldn't someone beat the Kobayashi Maru scenario by simply *not* going in to rescue the ship? I don't see how Starfleet could hold it against an officer for choosing not to violate a treaty.
PCMechanic 7 months ago
@PCMechanic You don't win that way, you let a bunch of people die. Starfleet might not hold it against you. Just like they might not hold it against you when you go in and try to rescue them. If you beat the klingons, you probably start a war, if you don't, you die.I think it is pretty no-win to me.
EatThePath2 7 months ago
@EatThePath2 Yes, but by ignoring the distress call and not going in for the rescue, you end up with an intact ship, no injuries or casualties amongst your crew, no treaties being broken and an interstellar war averted.
I'd call that a win.
PCMechanic 7 months ago
@PCMechanic Letting people die to play it safe may be prudent, but I'd hardly call it a win. Just because you're not on your ship doesn't change that. they didn't, and couldn't, know the klingons were watching and waiting, so thats all it would be, prudence. Assuming its not cowardice, anyway.
Assuming I'm remembering the scene correctly anyway.
EatThePath2 7 months ago
@PCMechanic To make it a real no win I'm guessing there's something in the premise that means you HAVE to save the ship. It's carrying a VIP or some cargo or information that can't fall into enemy hands. It's carrying someone else's ambassador on secret negotiations and if he's lost the Feds end up at war with his species. Failing to rescue the ship violates a treaty obligation to a Federation member and precipitates a secession crisis. There are ways to do it.
aperson22222 7 months ago
Even if there isn't much new, it's still a great review. The jokes are spot on and the serious parts give me chills, especially when you read Moby Dick. Definitely one of my favorite reviews and one of my favorite movies.
conanfan1412 7 months ago
It's funny. You first uploaded this review on my birthday, which was two days ago. It was a really pleasant surprise to watch it after coming home from work and waiting to go out for dinner. It would have been hilariously awesome if you had re-uploaded it on my birthday, but c'est la vie. I'm glad I can watch it again whenever I want, for it's one of my favorite examples of your work.
QueenOliver 7 months ago
yo-ah-chim? lol. How about wa-KEEM
dwayne0t 7 months ago
@dwayne0t I watched the scene where Khan said his name several times. It is, of course, difficult to be completely certain when someone has an accent and is speaking quietly, but I am certain he said "yo" at the beginning of the name. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but I've done my best to imitate Khan's pronunciation.
sfdebris 7 months ago
@sfdebris The name is definitely Joachim. Pronounciation is usually yo-akim.
slavkei 7 months ago
@sfdebris
Thanks for your reply. I just listened to it a dozen times myself.
It seems he says "YO-ahk-him", so we're probably both wrong. It was a silly thing to bring up to begin with, please forgive me.
It was a very nice review, thanks!
dwayne0t 7 months ago
@sfdebris It's Joachim, a usual german name.
iLaurock 7 months ago
@dwayne0t well, it's spelled"Joachim", which I would seperate into syllables that way: "Jo-a-chim"... so, I would agree with sfdebris on this.
Herbarius 7 months ago
@dwayne0t Also, it really is a German name, and there it is pronounced completely different than Khan says it in the movie ("io-a-hrrim"?). The syllables match though.
For details: The sounds used for "J" and "ch" don't occur in English at all. So the sounds Khan uses instead are approximations, which are somewhat similar, but still quite far of. The vowels aren't the same either, this goes especially for the "o", which should be more like in "North" and not like in "No" like Khan says it.
Herbarius 7 months ago
@Herbarius I've got to correct myself on this... The "J" sound does occur in English, it's like the y in "yes"... however, if I remember correctly, Khan pronounces it like the j in "just"
Herbarius 7 months ago
Definitely your best review man. Kudos!
yadratt 7 months ago
Love you man, but....earlier this month you met another impatient driver who flipped you off? Damn, always when you do Wrath of Khan reviews.
sserpent21 7 months ago
one thing still bugs me, how is a planet formed by a starship? I consider myself a nerd and have seen every minute of Star Trek, but it still bugs me
FSJGuy78 7 months ago
@FSJGuy78
It's not so much the starship as it sucked up all the matter in the nebula to create the planet.
thunderphoenix440 7 months ago
Ah my favorite one!
DaytonaRoadster 7 months ago
A plot hole I'd like to point out-why didn't McCoy scan Chekov and Terrell with his tricorder when Chekov spoke of Khan putting "creatures inside our bodies to control our minds"? It was only after the redshirt and Terrell were vaporized that he broke out the tricorder to scan Chekov for the Ceti eel (and then after Chekov had passed out!). I guess McCoy drank too much windshield wiper fluid before beaming down to the space station with Kirk and Saavik XD
All2Meme 7 months ago
@All2Meme The windshield wiper fluid I was talking about was the Romulan ale that was in the early part of the movie. Maybe it makes him forget his medical training; it might explain the kung-fu resuscitation technique he used on the Klingon chancellor Gorkon in Star Trek VI after drinking Romulan ale at the formal dinner earlier that night.
All2Meme 7 months ago
oh wow 4 parts O_o here we go! :D
vacuumina 7 months ago
I asked before in the old video before it got deleted, and it's something that weighs heavily on my mind when I watch this movie. Would Star Trek as a whole be better off if they stopped with TWOK, the media generally considered to be the franchise's shining moment? Certainly, parts of TNG and DS9 would be missed, but we'd be spared the lows of Voyager and Enterprise, and the later movies. Would the nostalgia of TOS, the ambition of TMP, and the quality of TWOK been enough to satisfy us?
thunderphoenix440 7 months ago
@thunderphoenix440 No. I grew up on TNG, came home from school and ploped down for an Episode. It's invalid to argue that since sucky stuff came later they should've stopped when it was 'good'. Also some good did come later like the Borg, Picard, and DS9. Also of whole whole new generations got the chance to get into it as well. If they just left it as you suggest it would've no doubt simply died away.
UnbeltedSundew 7 months ago
@thunderphoenix440 Star Trek II, III and IV are considered to be the trilogy. Many also like VI, which I believe is a fantastic movie. I believe those 4 movies really defined the TOS movie era.
spins321 7 months ago
A great review for a great movie. Excellent work. I give you 10/10.
AceEuphrates 7 months ago
Great work, I enjoyed this review. :)
Starbat88 7 months ago
I remember vague being a kid and hearing the rumor that Spock was going to die in this movie. That I couldn't see how they could do it in a way that wouldn't suck. Then leaving the theater and feeling Spock's death was sad but well done. I love how you scored it.
amberace 7 months ago
Thanks for this sfdebris. Your work continues to be appreciated!
iaincorbett 7 months ago 17
in my opinion, your best review, i absolutely loved how you showed the references to other literary work and went into detail for the behind the scenes tribbleations
very well done and it is so good to see this review up again, to bad youtube doesnt understand fair use
tk5800thesecond 7 months ago
probably my favourite of the sfdebris movie reviews
urahararocking 7 months ago 14
@urahararocking Probably my favorite out of all of his reviews period. Though that may come from bias due to my love of the source material.
QueenOliver 7 months ago
Thank you for this
fraggenaught 7 months ago 2
There's not much new stuff, a few jokes here and there, but the audio will be clearer and as always it's available in HD.
I found a small glitch near the end of Part 3 - fixing it will delay things another hour and a half at least, so when it's ready I'll post it as-is, and during the night tonight I'll fix it.
sfdebris 7 months ago 3
@sfdebris Seeing how good your first version was I can't really see how much you could change it for the better.
belgariontheking1 7 months ago