I learned very early on in AA that AA had no monopoly (stated explicitly in the Big Book) and that every door should be kept open with regard to professional and other approaches, outside treatment with a psychiatric professional is encouraged explicitly in the Big Book and that 40% of drinkers recover without AA. The definition of having "tried" AA for recovery is a fair attempt at the steps. The 98% figure is fudged data ie. people who have attended a few meetings and didn't try the steps.
@stockybob The monopoly occurs when ppl are court ordered to attend. You don't see this with any other treatment program. It is also said overtly and implied quite frequently that people who leave aa will die to impress upon them there are not other treatments or choices. Plenty of manipulative suggestion going on there regardless of what the bb says). I know plenty of folks who have stayed in aa for decades as dry abusive drunks having never really worked their so called spiritual steps.
@stockybob AA itself says it has no monopoly? Well, that certainly settles it! I wish you'd tell the State of Texas that AA has no monopoly, because most counties in the state will *force* you into AA attendance even though numerous other options may be available. In fact, why don't you get in touch with James Christopher, founder of SOS, who had to do battle many times with AAers on hospital boards who tried to prevent a medical facility from hosting SOS meetings!
Geneticists have come up with close to 12 common alleles found in the alcoholic that are not present in non-alcoholic individuals. Additionally, coroner's began to notice in the 60's that alcoholic brains showed the same kinds of damage suffered by heroin addicts ie. opiod damage. Further investigation revealed that alcoholics produce "beta" endorphins, 300 x more powerful than regular endorphins when they imbibe alcohol and are addicted to THIS high, not the alcohol reaction.
@stockybob I remember how excited I was in the 90's about Dr. Kenneth Blum's work at UT concerning the A1 allele of the Dopamine D2 receptor, and Dr. Elizabeth Davis' work concerning TIQ in the cadavers of alcoholics from Houston's skid row. Groundbreaking work, and all done in my "back yard" here in Texas. But what this shows is that AA is wrong: alcoholism probably has a biochemical/biogenetic basis, and is NOT a "spiritual disease" caused by "character defects" like resentment.
Peele's argument here is to explain the civil success of AA (to the point that it is the paramount treatment methodology) despite the research findings that it is nowhere near the most successful technique. Anti-American? No, he merely explains how AA is perpetuated because of its CONGRUENCY with the American culture. American's love God, technocratic problem framing and solutions thereof. Remember 61% of the world AA population resideS in the US (3.4% of world population).
"that is called capitalism, just get honest about it"
Sweet! As long as we're "getting honest", let's bring to light the fact that Wilson made a shitload of money from the Big Book royalties. (He actually got $1558 [$180,000 in today's terms], and then seems to have stolen a lot of other money to go with it.) That's called "capitalism" too - not to mention "fraud".
10% of these royalties were left to his mistress. That's called adultery - of which Wilson was an absolute expert.
Hammersley - an affair with Helen Wynne was suspected, but never proven. She was his secretary and had worked tirelessly for years for AA (as had the Wilsons) with little or no compensation and deserved her 10%. Lois concurred with the change in the will. BTW, Lois gave all her royalty money away.
You should be careful with your accusations. You're sounding like an ignorant Weenie. Try reading "AA comes of Age".
Bill admitted to arguing with his wife over other women as early as the 1920s in his OWN account in the Big Book:
"There had been no real infidelity for loyalty to my wife, helped at times by extreme drunkenness, kept me out of those scrapes." (3rd edition p.3).
Sure...
However, in the mid 1950s Bill began a full blown affair with Helen Wynn, a woman 12 years his junior. Bill at one point even discussed divorcing Lois to marry Helen.
Moreover, he eventually overcame the AA trustees' objections, and renegotiated his royalty agreements with them in 1963, which allowed him to include Helen Wynn in his estate. She received a lifetime interest in 10 percent of his book royalties (Francis Hartigan, Bill W., Chapter 25, pp. 190-197 and pp. 170-171).
I guess he did it just for the hell of it...
No hanky-panky whatsoever...
I think I'll stick with the "ignorantly" impartial biographers and give the AA propaganda a miss...
S peele is as dangerous as Dr Murray was to M Jackson. there is a perfect example of a Dr who took advantage of a person's physical addiction, and lost. And, look at Audrey K and S peele, How many who tried to drink moderately, and failed miserably, and some died. Why, because, the disease of addiction is not a behavior. it's a physical disease.
No, just the opposite. Legion 12 Network nonsense, and holding S Peel as your power of example,( a man who says brain scans prove nothing because Nora Volkow of NIDA is of Russian descent, and therefore she has Communist ideas), really leads to little credibility to anything U write to defend him, .it's a BIO-psycho-social disease, It's all of it, to clarify what i just wrote 1 day ago. I meant to say it's not JUST a beh disease.
Ham,Maybe: A: Ham, 2p worth, and Godlessweasel advocate for S Peele, B: Ham , 2pWorth and Godlessweasel are the advocates for the Legion 12 nation, C: Ergo, the 3 of U are the major examples of his followers on YT.....Besides i don't kbow about right now, he is 2 busy writing about Dave letterman,
"Ham,Maybe: A: Ham, 2p worth, and Godlessweasel advocate for S Peele, B: Ham , 2pWorth and Godlessweasel are the advocates for the Legion 12 nation, C: Ergo, the 3 of U are the major examples of his followers on YT.....Besides i don't kbow about right now, he is 2 busy writing about Dave letterman,"
My suggestion of "AA comes of Age" was directed at the financial stories - thanks to Orange, the Weenies believe the Wilsons were greedy. The real story is one of service and sacrifice.
As to the pussy, I've read all the books, and don't really think much about it. If Bill was humping Helen, so what! AA members like BW because he was fucked-up, just like us. His life ( good and bad) is an open book. How many people could withstand such scrutiny ? Not me!
Defending urself a whole bunch there, dude! LOL, if it was a joke, then Y R U asked to be part of a world take over,,,,,So, I get it, all the sites, including this one U consider a loke! So, by simple deduction, U think S Peele is a joke, like the Legion12 Network!
And in regards to BW's denials of his repeated infidelity, we should always remember his BB reservations about the AA "total honesty in all our affairs" principle. He specifically writes about sexual infidelity on page 81:
"If we are sure our wife does not know, should we tell her? Not always, we think."
Me thinks him be a big fan of the "Last Part of Step 9" escape clause...
Wilson was an extremely flawed human being...
What's with the myth making and worship of the chronic sex addict.?
Try reading Francis Hartigan, Matthew Raphael, Sharon O'hara, and Susan Cheever's (to name just a few) biographical accounts rather than "AA Comes of Age".
The AA version is the only one that leaves out the bit where he fucks 'em two by two from the 1920s to the 1960s...
And who do you think has the historiography perverting agenda - AA or the biographical scholars who have their professional reputations on the line?
"The Journal of the College & Physicians of Alberta"?
Your point is? A piss ant journal attached to a half-arsed, self-interested physicians club in fucking Alberta of all places (the scientific hub of the universe - NOT!) defines addiction as a disease? So what?
And the World Health Authority as well as the AMA's "Journal of Ethics" DO NOT. If you are going to base your entire argument on the opinions of other's, I guess I just blew YOUR ENTIRE opinion/thought out of the water, didn't I?
How about an informed and contemplative discussion/argument that explores the issue of what constitutes "disease" in a medical sense and whether or not alcoholism and/or addiction fits that diagnostic criteria?
h-don't hold your breath waiting for that to take place on yt.
'a very grateful, powerless recovering addict' revels in what he thinks is intellectually beating up on you while blame & the rest of the A-AA chest-thumpers just pump out the 'AA=evil/cult/mindf**k' propaganda ad nauseum.
it's either the big book or the orange papers. no one's read a recent journal article & they don't really care to. the pissing contest is way too much fun.
The web is full of all the past classics, and present cutting edge, research and philosophy on the issue, and all these coconuts do is hold fast to their fundamentalist paradigms.
h-you got me - makes it easy for both sides would be my guess.
i'd describe myself as an AA member but definitely not a stepper. IMHO, a whole lot if not most AA members see the BB & 12X12 as doctrine if not outright revelation. you don't muck w/revelation, right?
on the other side, orange is a polemicist but he's done his homework & many of his points ring true. again, though, for the A-AA crowd orange, ragge, & blame are the be-all/end-all. orange said it, must be true.
"most AA members see the BB & 12X12 as doctrine if not outright revelation. you don't muck w/revelation, right?"
The funny thing about this is, according to his own personal correspondence with Charlie B in 1951, Wilson himself wanted to rewrite the steps. Why? Because at 17 years sober he had a far better idea about alcoholism and recovery thereof than he did at 4 years sober. The best he could come up with at 4 years sober was a rather verbose version of the six Oxford Group directives.
On the other hand, these anti-AAers act as if there is absolutely NO therapeutic value in AA attendance or program engagement whatsoever. I think that this stems from the overly neo-liberal times in which we live. ANY outfit that suggests a doctrine as a model for therapeutic approach is immediately branded as a dangerous, disempowering, mind controlling cult.
h-"12 steps & 12 traditions" was originally published in 1952. honestly, i think that text reads more onerously than the BB.
in the 60's bill thought LSD was the cure for alcoholism. later still, mega-doses of vitamin B & niacin. IMHO, bill was a headcase who went where the wind blew him ... or where a willing female was.
the AA cult of personality built around bill & [the supposed infallibility of] his writings has genuinely hobbled the organization's ability to grow & be more effective.
"the AA cult of personality built around bill & [the supposed infallibility of] his writings has genuinely hobbled the organization's ability to grow & be more effective."
Totally agree. It's kept the movement in the 1930s. "Unfortunately" yet inevitably, this will no doubt be its downfall - as with the Washingtonians and Oxford Groups.
BTW: "12 steps & 12 traditions" according to Ernest Kurtz (citing Wilson's private correspondences), was supposedly Wilson's way around the movement's textual gag they put on him. Thus rather than edit or redraft the steps, he could only "inform" them via the 12 X 12 companion.
Indeed, he is quoted as saying:
"As to changing the steps themselves, or even the text of the AA book, I am assured by many that I could certainly be excommunicated if a word were touched"
"It is a strange fact of human nature that when a spiritually centered movement starts and finally adopts certain principles, these freeze absolutely solid. But what can't be done regarding the Steps themselves - or any part of the AA book, I can make a shift by writing these pieces which I hope folks will like."
Wilson's private correspondence with Charles W (3rd June 1952).
Cited in Ernest Kurtz (2002), "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS AND THE DISEASE CONCEPT OF ADDICTION".
h-bill wrote the 12X12 while collecting a salary from AA & the text itself was originally published for profit by harper brothers (go to gsowatch's website & search).
while alive, bill had a vested interest in AA & vice-versa. if any reputation needs a good de-mythologizing, it's that of bill wilson. IMHO, he was hardly the altruistic, 'language of the heart' god-conscious healer most contemporary AA's see him as. his writings reflect his none-too-small personality flaws.
Apparently, he spent the last 10 years of his "healthy" life (before he became fully invalided with emphysema) driving around in his car, smoking cigarettes, masturbating, throwing rotten fruit at people on the sidewalks, and screaming like a banshee whenever he affected a direct hit.
What an acrimonious end to a man who was built up into such an urban legend!
[Not true, but I love taking it just that little bit further into the ridiculous.]
there was an article in yesterday's ny times about addiction & treatment alternatives. it was fairly balanced - neither excoriating the 12 steps nor paying all that much homage to them either.
i'll bet little (if any) of the typical yt commenters, AA diehards or 12SF windbags even read it. information prompts cogitation - maybe even a (slight) change of heart or, god forbid, a re-evaluation of your position.
If you stop going to AA meetings you stop being reminded of what you are.
Not everyone who stops going to AA goes out and drinks again, but I know many people who have.
I have been sober for some years and the main reason why I still go to AA is because if everybody who had been sober for a while stopped going, the fellowship would cease.
AA was there when I needed it and I want to ensure that it is there for the alcoholic who still suffers.
This has been flagged as spam show
this guy is fucking retarded
popularcandy 1 year ago
I have been to an A.A. meeting in Siberia and it sucked, froze my ass off !!!
99motleycrue 1 year ago
I learned very early on in AA that AA had no monopoly (stated explicitly in the Big Book) and that every door should be kept open with regard to professional and other approaches, outside treatment with a psychiatric professional is encouraged explicitly in the Big Book and that 40% of drinkers recover without AA. The definition of having "tried" AA for recovery is a fair attempt at the steps. The 98% figure is fudged data ie. people who have attended a few meetings and didn't try the steps.
stockybob 1 year ago
@stockybob
HOW DARE YOU!!!
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
@stockybob The monopoly occurs when ppl are court ordered to attend. You don't see this with any other treatment program. It is also said overtly and implied quite frequently that people who leave aa will die to impress upon them there are not other treatments or choices. Plenty of manipulative suggestion going on there regardless of what the bb says). I know plenty of folks who have stayed in aa for decades as dry abusive drunks having never really worked their so called spiritual steps.
beautifulmind546 8 months ago
@stockybob AA itself says it has no monopoly? Well, that certainly settles it! I wish you'd tell the State of Texas that AA has no monopoly, because most counties in the state will *force* you into AA attendance even though numerous other options may be available. In fact, why don't you get in touch with James Christopher, founder of SOS, who had to do battle many times with AAers on hospital boards who tried to prevent a medical facility from hosting SOS meetings!
BlatzBeer 3 months ago
This guy is drunk himself! He should go to AA meetings. U can find AA meeting in Syberia if you wanted too. It's worldwide.
LittleLadyDalia 2 years ago
@LittleLadyDalia Yea, so is religion. Doesn't mean its legitimate though does it.
scumgod13 1 year ago
AA is world wide phenomenon with a majority of its members outside of the US.... don't know what this guy is getting at.
stockybob 2 years ago
@stockybob With a 98% failure rate I would say AA is a worldwide travesty.
scumgod13 1 year ago
Geneticists have come up with close to 12 common alleles found in the alcoholic that are not present in non-alcoholic individuals. Additionally, coroner's began to notice in the 60's that alcoholic brains showed the same kinds of damage suffered by heroin addicts ie. opiod damage. Further investigation revealed that alcoholics produce "beta" endorphins, 300 x more powerful than regular endorphins when they imbibe alcohol and are addicted to THIS high, not the alcohol reaction.
stockybob 2 years ago
@stockybob I remember how excited I was in the 90's about Dr. Kenneth Blum's work at UT concerning the A1 allele of the Dopamine D2 receptor, and Dr. Elizabeth Davis' work concerning TIQ in the cadavers of alcoholics from Houston's skid row. Groundbreaking work, and all done in my "back yard" here in Texas. But what this shows is that AA is wrong: alcoholism probably has a biochemical/biogenetic basis, and is NOT a "spiritual disease" caused by "character defects" like resentment.
BlatzBeer 3 months ago
My Sky Fairy is better than your Sky Fairy
zooromeo 2 years ago
This analysis is ridden with anti- americanism i.e, something is wrong because it is "american". I'm sorry but that is not good enough.
DeathMetalWildman 3 years ago
I don't think so.
Peele's argument here is to explain the civil success of AA (to the point that it is the paramount treatment methodology) despite the research findings that it is nowhere near the most successful technique. Anti-American? No, he merely explains how AA is perpetuated because of its CONGRUENCY with the American culture. American's love God, technocratic problem framing and solutions thereof. Remember 61% of the world AA population resideS in the US (3.4% of world population).
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
"that is called capitalism, just get honest about it"
Sweet! As long as we're "getting honest", let's bring to light the fact that Wilson made a shitload of money from the Big Book royalties. (He actually got $1558 [$180,000 in today's terms], and then seems to have stolen a lot of other money to go with it.) That's called "capitalism" too - not to mention "fraud".
10% of these royalties were left to his mistress. That's called adultery - of which Wilson was an absolute expert.
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Hammersley - an affair with Helen Wynne was suspected, but never proven. She was his secretary and had worked tirelessly for years for AA (as had the Wilsons) with little or no compensation and deserved her 10%. Lois concurred with the change in the will. BTW, Lois gave all her royalty money away.
You should be careful with your accusations. You're sounding like an ignorant Weenie. Try reading "AA comes of Age".
"adultry expert"? shame on you
quickcap 2 years ago
[1]
Oh, quickie!
Bill admitted to arguing with his wife over other women as early as the 1920s in his OWN account in the Big Book:
"There had been no real infidelity for loyalty to my wife, helped at times by extreme drunkenness, kept me out of those scrapes." (3rd edition p.3).
Sure...
However, in the mid 1950s Bill began a full blown affair with Helen Wynn, a woman 12 years his junior. Bill at one point even discussed divorcing Lois to marry Helen.
Hammersley1967 2 years ago 2
[2]
Moreover, he eventually overcame the AA trustees' objections, and renegotiated his royalty agreements with them in 1963, which allowed him to include Helen Wynn in his estate. She received a lifetime interest in 10 percent of his book royalties (Francis Hartigan, Bill W., Chapter 25, pp. 190-197 and pp. 170-171).
I guess he did it just for the hell of it...
No hanky-panky whatsoever...
I think I'll stick with the "ignorantly" impartial biographers and give the AA propaganda a miss...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
[3]
...and don't forget about all that acid he took in the late 50s with Huxley, Heard, Khan and Lois.
The man was a regular swingin', psychedelic, hipster, sex machine!!!
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
Ah, Hamsterman, King of the Legion 12, Bill's acid trip was in the 70's, He took it because some jerk told him it was a cure for alcoholism.
Get Ur facts straight there buckaroo!
evet45 2 years ago
"Bill's acid trip was in the 70's"
Oh evey! I just LOVE the way you continue to make an utter ignorant fool of yourself time after time after time after time...
In the late 1950s Bill took LSD with Betty Eisner, Gerald Heard, and Aldous Huxley.
Read "Bill W.: A Biography Of Alcoholics Anonymous Cofounder Bill" by Francis Hartigan for confirmation.
How can you get SO many things wrong SO many times?
Your SUCH an IDIOT!!!
And evey, "Get Ur facts straight there buckaroo!"
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
"Bill's acid trip was in the 70's" Where did you get that from numbnuts? Off the back of a Corn Flakes box with all the rest of your "knowledge"?
And YOU are attempting to correct ME?
I'll give you one last chance - do you have a reference to this little "pearl of wisdom"?
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Oh Boy Evey!!!
You're an absolute crack up!!!
Thanks for the giggle!!!
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
Hammie, just playing with U. I know it was in 1956, AugusT I believe, under the guidence of researchers and doctors.
Gotta keep U on Ur toes!.
evet45 2 years ago
And you're "just joking"!!?
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
S peele is as dangerous as Dr Murray was to M Jackson. there is a perfect example of a Dr who took advantage of a person's physical addiction, and lost. And, look at Audrey K and S peele, How many who tried to drink moderately, and failed miserably, and some died. Why, because, the disease of addiction is not a behavior. it's a physical disease.
evet45 2 years ago
Are you saying that Peele might be coming to dethrone me as "The King Of The Legion of 12"?
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
No, just the opposite. Legion 12 Network nonsense, and holding S Peel as your power of example,( a man who says brain scans prove nothing because Nora Volkow of NIDA is of Russian descent, and therefore she has Communist ideas), really leads to little credibility to anything U write to defend him, .it's a BIO-psycho-social disease, It's all of it, to clarify what i just wrote 1 day ago. I meant to say it's not JUST a beh disease.
evet45 2 years ago
So he IS coming to dethrone me!!
AAAARRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!!
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
Ham,Maybe: A: Ham, 2p worth, and Godlessweasel advocate for S Peele, B: Ham , 2pWorth and Godlessweasel are the advocates for the Legion 12 nation, C: Ergo, the 3 of U are the major examples of his followers on YT.....Besides i don't kbow about right now, he is 2 busy writing about Dave letterman,
evet45 2 years ago
"Ham,Maybe: A: Ham, 2p worth, and Godlessweasel advocate for S Peele, B: Ham , 2pWorth and Godlessweasel are the advocates for the Legion 12 nation, C: Ergo, the 3 of U are the major examples of his followers on YT.....Besides i don't kbow about right now, he is 2 busy writing about Dave letterman,"
Sounds shieneze!!! (of the andrea variety...)
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
I missed your reply - hence the delay
My suggestion of "AA comes of Age" was directed at the financial stories - thanks to Orange, the Weenies believe the Wilsons were greedy. The real story is one of service and sacrifice.
As to the pussy, I've read all the books, and don't really think much about it. If Bill was humping Helen, so what! AA members like BW because he was fucked-up, just like us. His life ( good and bad) is an open book. How many people could withstand such scrutiny ? Not me!
quickcap 2 years ago
BUT HE WAS A COMMUNIST!!!
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
Hammie, And You are the self proclaimed King of the Legion 12 Network! Some pretty perverse humor for a " joke".
evet45 2 years ago
Still taking "The Legion" seriously evey?
Wow!
You sure are a gullible dummy!
Moreover, you must have some deep seated insecurity issues...
How long are you supposed to be sober?
I think you need to do some serious work on this blind spot...
I suggest that you do a "mini step four" on this...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
Defending urself a whole bunch there, dude! LOL, if it was a joke, then Y R U asked to be part of a world take over,,,,,So, I get it, all the sites, including this one U consider a loke! So, by simple deduction, U think S Peele is a joke, like the Legion12 Network!
evet45 2 years ago
"So, I get it, all the sites, including this one U consider a loke! So, by simple deduction, U think S Peele is a joke, like the Legion12 Network!"
Yes evey...
That's some SOUND reasoning there...
Self-evident to all in sundry...
Now, you know how I've repeatedly wiped the floor with you over dozens of these threads?
This begs the question: Why do you keep coming back for follow up bloody noses?
Repeating the same mistakes expecting a different result?
Back to step two for you evey...
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
And in regards to BW's denials of his repeated infidelity, we should always remember his BB reservations about the AA "total honesty in all our affairs" principle. He specifically writes about sexual infidelity on page 81:
"If we are sure our wife does not know, should we tell her? Not always, we think."
Me thinks him be a big fan of the "Last Part of Step 9" escape clause...
Wilson was an extremely flawed human being...
What's with the myth making and worship of the chronic sex addict.?
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
And one more thing...
Try reading Francis Hartigan, Matthew Raphael, Sharon O'hara, and Susan Cheever's (to name just a few) biographical accounts rather than "AA Comes of Age".
The AA version is the only one that leaves out the bit where he fucks 'em two by two from the 1920s to the 1960s...
And who do you think has the historiography perverting agenda - AA or the biographical scholars who have their professional reputations on the line?
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
The Journal of the College & Physicians of Alberta defines Addiction as a Spiritual, Mental & Physical DISEASE.
Just blew your ENTIRE video/opinion/ thought outta the water huh?!?!
Have a great day,
A Very Grateful, Powerless recovering addict.
Squish2dope 3 years ago
"The Journal of the College & Physicians of Alberta"?
Your point is? A piss ant journal attached to a half-arsed, self-interested physicians club in fucking Alberta of all places (the scientific hub of the universe - NOT!) defines addiction as a disease? So what?
And the World Health Authority as well as the AMA's "Journal of Ethics" DO NOT. If you are going to base your entire argument on the opinions of other's, I guess I just blew YOUR ENTIRE opinion/thought out of the water, didn't I?
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
How about an informed and contemplative discussion/argument that explores the issue of what constitutes "disease" in a medical sense and whether or not alcoholism and/or addiction fits that diagnostic criteria?
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
h-don't hold your breath waiting for that to take place on yt.
'a very grateful, powerless recovering addict' revels in what he thinks is intellectually beating up on you while blame & the rest of the A-AA chest-thumpers just pump out the 'AA=evil/cult/mindf**k' propaganda ad nauseum.
it's either the big book or the orange papers. no one's read a recent journal article & they don't really care to. the pissing contest is way too much fun.
notspeedy0314 3 years ago
That seems to be the case...
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
"it's either the big book or the orange papers."
Why is that?
The web is full of all the past classics, and present cutting edge, research and philosophy on the issue, and all these coconuts do is hold fast to their fundamentalist paradigms.
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
h-you got me - makes it easy for both sides would be my guess.
i'd describe myself as an AA member but definitely not a stepper. IMHO, a whole lot if not most AA members see the BB & 12X12 as doctrine if not outright revelation. you don't muck w/revelation, right?
on the other side, orange is a polemicist but he's done his homework & many of his points ring true. again, though, for the A-AA crowd orange, ragge, & blame are the be-all/end-all. orange said it, must be true.
notspeedy0314 3 years ago
[1]
"most AA members see the BB & 12X12 as doctrine if not outright revelation. you don't muck w/revelation, right?"
The funny thing about this is, according to his own personal correspondence with Charlie B in 1951, Wilson himself wanted to rewrite the steps. Why? Because at 17 years sober he had a far better idea about alcoholism and recovery thereof than he did at 4 years sober. The best he could come up with at 4 years sober was a rather verbose version of the six Oxford Group directives.
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
[2]
On the other hand, these anti-AAers act as if there is absolutely NO therapeutic value in AA attendance or program engagement whatsoever. I think that this stems from the overly neo-liberal times in which we live. ANY outfit that suggests a doctrine as a model for therapeutic approach is immediately branded as a dangerous, disempowering, mind controlling cult.
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
h-"12 steps & 12 traditions" was originally published in 1952. honestly, i think that text reads more onerously than the BB.
in the 60's bill thought LSD was the cure for alcoholism. later still, mega-doses of vitamin B & niacin. IMHO, bill was a headcase who went where the wind blew him ... or where a willing female was.
the AA cult of personality built around bill & [the supposed infallibility of] his writings has genuinely hobbled the organization's ability to grow & be more effective.
notspeedy0314 3 years ago
[a]
"the AA cult of personality built around bill & [the supposed infallibility of] his writings has genuinely hobbled the organization's ability to grow & be more effective."
Totally agree. It's kept the movement in the 1930s. "Unfortunately" yet inevitably, this will no doubt be its downfall - as with the Washingtonians and Oxford Groups.
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
[b]
BTW: "12 steps & 12 traditions" according to Ernest Kurtz (citing Wilson's private correspondences), was supposedly Wilson's way around the movement's textual gag they put on him. Thus rather than edit or redraft the steps, he could only "inform" them via the 12 X 12 companion.
Indeed, he is quoted as saying:
"As to changing the steps themselves, or even the text of the AA book, I am assured by many that I could certainly be excommunicated if a word were touched"
CONTINUED IN [c]
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
[c]
He goes on to say:
"It is a strange fact of human nature that when a spiritually centered movement starts and finally adopts certain principles, these freeze absolutely solid. But what can't be done regarding the Steps themselves - or any part of the AA book, I can make a shift by writing these pieces which I hope folks will like."
Wilson's private correspondence with Charles W (3rd June 1952).
Cited in Ernest Kurtz (2002), "ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS AND THE DISEASE CONCEPT OF ADDICTION".
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
h-bill wrote the 12X12 while collecting a salary from AA & the text itself was originally published for profit by harper brothers (go to gsowatch's website & search).
while alive, bill had a vested interest in AA & vice-versa. if any reputation needs a good de-mythologizing, it's that of bill wilson. IMHO, he was hardly the altruistic, 'language of the heart' god-conscious healer most contemporary AA's see him as. his writings reflect his none-too-small personality flaws.
notspeedy0314 3 years ago
Apparently, he spent the last 10 years of his "healthy" life (before he became fully invalided with emphysema) driving around in his car, smoking cigarettes, masturbating, throwing rotten fruit at people on the sidewalks, and screaming like a banshee whenever he affected a direct hit.
What an acrimonious end to a man who was built up into such an urban legend!
[Not true, but I love taking it just that little bit further into the ridiculous.]
Merrry Christmas Amigo!
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
funny stuff - made for an fun, excellent visual.
merry christmas, happy holidays, happy everything to you as well!
notspeedy0314 3 years ago
there was an article in yesterday's ny times about addiction & treatment alternatives. it was fairly balanced - neither excoriating the 12 steps nor paying all that much homage to them either.
i'll bet little (if any) of the typical yt commenters, AA diehards or 12SF windbags even read it. information prompts cogitation - maybe even a (slight) change of heart or, god forbid, a re-evaluation of your position.
diatribe not dialog - that's the rule here.
notspeedy0314 3 years ago
Monoply WHY don't you find a better way you'll
so smart! you'll it's a free country you find it the way.
Brough1111 3 years ago
Another great talk sir
coomadoug 3 years ago
AA clames no monopoly on sobriety
chalaca678 3 years ago
If you stop going to AA meetings you stop being reminded of what you are.
Not everyone who stops going to AA goes out and drinks again, but I know many people who have.
I have been sober for some years and the main reason why I still go to AA is because if everybody who had been sober for a while stopped going, the fellowship would cease.
AA was there when I needed it and I want to ensure that it is there for the alcoholic who still suffers.
That is why I keep coming back.
Chernolapkin 3 years ago
I find this guy offensive.What is his motive in running AA down?
sidecrank 4 years ago