Since being crowded refers to things of a material nature in excessive close proximity, and Hell would be of a spiritual plain, where nothing of a material nature can exist, the video title sounds particularly stupid and pointless.
Interesting video and I hope Fr Barron is right, but I wonder how he would explain this:
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few. (Matt. 7:13-14).
Jesus Christ was clear: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." (Matthew 7:13). So no, not all people would be saved I disagree with that. And the first of them was Judas Iscariot, the son of the damned. And if Hell was just a place with no fire and screaming etc.. like Jesus described it, then all those saints who saw visions about heaven and hell are hallucinating,& the Catechism of the Ca.Ch. is wrong.
@hodriguinhohunter I note from your profile that you are 28 years old and therefore have no experience in growing up in the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church. However at your age you should understand that when you ridicule someone, you are really making a statement about yourself.
@Apacalola Me? Ridiculing Someone? you are ridiculing urself my man... And my advice(if you wanna take it) is that you stop ridiculing urself accusing this and that, and start to get deep on faith yourself. An advice that makes someone wake up isn't ridiculing oneself, rather a Word of Love that tries to take someone out of a hole.
Get out! Be Man! Complains won't help... Actions Help a little better than pointing fingers
@hodriguinhohunter "Me? Ridiculing Someone?" You certainly were and your claim of providing "advice that makes someone wake up" does nothing to change the fact that you relied upon ridicule rather than reason. You are guilty of an ad hominem attack - attack the arguer instead of the argument. An ad hominem attack is a classic example of a fallacy of logic and rhetoric. It is always used to focus negative attention on someone in order to hide an inability to provide a cogent argument.
@hodriguinhohunter You refer to me as "honey"! There you go again. Your reliance on ridicule is apparently the only means you have to support your views - whatever they might be.
As I read through the tread of comments on this video by Fr. Barron, it seems that many are expecting him to answer for every weird thing they might have heard from a parish priest or random Catholic. Newsflash: Not EVERYTHING we learned in Catechism class or the sermon at Mass was really necessarily orthodox Catholicism. It's funny that when we want to know how to spell a word or verify a biographical detail, we know where to look, but some folks still can't define authentic Catholic teaching.
Would it be fair to say, Father, that Western doctrine on hell has come full circle back to where the East has always been? Also, would you also like to comment on what I think is the crystalization of a medieval, literal interpretation of hell among fundamentalist evangelical protestants, especially Calvinists? They seem to have inherited the medieval, literal Roman Catholic version of hell and are unable to get beyond this. Any thoughts? thanks for the vid, btw Very thoughtful and enlightening
@brendos444 Yes, I think we've come closer to the East in many ways. I would say that someone like Hans Urs von Balthasar "Origenized" Augustine quite a bit. It's his theory that I'm advocating here.
@wordonfirevideo Too bad you are taking the heretic views of the modernist Urs Von Balthasar, father, more of the rotten theology of Vatican II. I will pray for you.
@qvoprimum You sound like a product of that pre-Vatican II "Old Time Religion" just like me. Back then the Hell was the real deal where sinners (just about all teenage boys guilty of thought crime) would burn forever in actual fire. Ah yes "Give me that old time religion, that old time religion...."
Everybody has their own opinion about it. It ends up becoming like a Rorschach test, "Tell me what you see?". Some people's answers might be similar, some very different. The problem ends up being the arrogance of just KNOWING that you are right, and due to that establishing and spreading an opinion as if it were facts.
Salvation was originally a Jewish idea: the nation of Israel would be saved from exile and/or captivity; or an individual Jew would be saved from physical death. Hell was developed to make Jews feel better by saying their enemies would be punished in an afterlife for causing Jews to suffer in this life. Thus, proposing that hell is just a metaphor for withdrawing from a great party in the sky is too far of a stretch from the original Jewish teaching. Hell requires a triumph of good over evil.
I am reminded of the man who refused to sell all of his possessions to follow Christ and walked away saddened. "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of Heaven", to which the response came "who then can be saved?" and to that the answer; "with men it is impossible, but with God, all things are possible."
its not arrogant enough to claim you have the one right religion, but how to worship and interperet it correctly too? this is nothing but your opinion the answers you thought out (or quite possibly hope for) on questions no one could possibly know ever! im a little bit tired of ppl in funny costumes or with special neck collars thinking they have an authority to speak on absolutely everything, the origins of the universe, the origin of life, and my favourite, what happens when you die.
@AK8591 Not all listeners! Many people do not blindly accept arguments from authority but require those "authorities" to back up their contentions with evidence! Barron provides no evidence for his religious beliefs. He has faith in the veracity of Catholic doctrine based upon his Catholic upbringing just as millions of Muslims have faith in Islamic doctrine based upon their Muslim upbringing. Geography is a principal determinant of one's religion.
@SOS763 Are you being censored because of your foul language or are you deleting your own responses. Either way, chill out. You called me a cretin, and I mentioned my education to show you that I'm not - in fact - a cretin. You'd be crushed in a real debate, so you cover up yout philosophical ignorance with foul language. Have fun with that.
I think most people seem to underestimate the limitlessness of the grace of God. The result of semi-universalism should not be easy thinking, but pure happiness and gratefulness to God. And the fact that this kingdom of God already starts here, in people's hearts, should encourage the effort of trying to be a part of that, by loving your fellow men. I think that throughout the ages the grace of God has been revealed to us more and more, just look at the Divine Mercy visions. Grace abounds now.
For important truths on the traditional Catholic Faith, its necessity for salvation, proof of Catholicism in the Bible, creation, miracles, and what really happened to the Catholic Church after Vatican II, please visit channel: MHFM1.
@mrmentalmadness God doesn't send people to hell, he sent his only begotten Son into the world to be the ultimate sacrifice so that no one would have to go to hell despite original sin. Instead, people reject God. How can God be with people who refuse to acknowledge him?
And yes, youtube near death experiences of former atheists who come back from hell or youtube exorcisms if that's not enough for you to believe in the existence of evil.
@symplythebest except atheism. Thats confusing atheism with skepticism, all atheism by itself is, is the claim that God doesn't exist, or probably doesn't exist.
Mrmentalmadness, you're not taking into account history accurately. You're posturing that there's no evidence or logic to it. Ultimately, you are simply dismissing it, albeit it cleverly but frivolously. This isn't about the existence of hell. Hell exists whether you think so or not. It's about you're ability to not grasp, you clearly have that, but rather acknowledge it. I would point to the varied sources of well documented experiences of others when it comes to this subject.
@Flippers456 Have people who have been to Hell provided evidence for you. Now that would be interesting! Why would God want us to suffer in Hell? Are we not his children? I could never commit my children to hell - could you? In all honesty - could you?
@Mrmentalmadness123 Of course not, but Hell is not a place that God commits people to, it is a spiritual state were the tension created between the persons hatred and rejection of God, coupled with the fullness of God's presence result in suffering. Picture it as a Father who goes to hug the son who hates him, since the son hates him, his fathers very embrace is a torment unto him. But all the Father does is demonstrate his love for his son.
Your reply belies your already preconceived notion of what "enlightened" means.
Sorry buddy, this ain't Buddhism.
We have been given free choice: we choose to be "naughty", which means we choose against God. It is an act of hatred and betrayal; betraying the God that loves us. So when we make that choice freely, we freely choose to be as far away from God as possible. We choose hell.
@SOS763 You said: "We are being naughty by being unimpressed with the evidence for Christ's claims? Which justifies a so called enlightened creators idea that he must torture those who chose to live lives without the **** of a Jewish attention seeker? Listen, buddy; you're right, this ain't buddhism. It's Christianity. A FALSE, retarded, fascistic, bullyish - all round ****ing stupid belief system for cretins like you. I actually hope hell exists - people like you deserve a front seat"
@SOS763 What a hilarious post. First, I'm fairly sure that - even as a "cretin" - I already have about 3 years of education over your head, and by the time I'm done, I'll have about 9 years of education post-graduate, so I think I'm doing pretty good for myself. Second, you wouldn't sound so ignorant if you could actually critique Christianity without resorting to junk words that really contain little to no substance.
@SOS763 With that being said, you STILL managed to misrepresent Christian beliefs. Again, we believe that God does not actively punish us. Just like a person who makes bad choices in life and harms themselves in the process - something that is completely their own fault - when we choose against God, we believe that we are choosing against what is actually our ultimate good. Unless they change, they made their choice: God gives us what we chose in life, an existence that is devoid of Him.
@SOS763 And that's hell. So you can feel free to set up those straw men, but you'd only be tricking yourself in to thinking that you're some great opponent of Christianity when in reality, you're only arguing against a construct that most Christians - especially Catholics - do not even believe in the first place. You have yourself a good day.
Wouldn't a God have evolved to get past petty human jealousies and anger and retribution? The whole idea and concept of Hell has a human stench to it that no self respecting deity would need or operate. Otherwise God is no more moral than the worst of us and we have nothing to learn from him.
@Mrmentalmadness123 What is petty about saying that the divine love can be rejected and that that rejection causes suffering? That's what the symbol of Hell is meant to convey.
@wordonfirevideo So Hell is a symbol? It was certainly not symbolic when sold to me and my cohort as a 5 year old. Is this a softening of the position to somehow smooth away the threat of a horrific afterlife as a means of social control or does your own view detract from that of official dogma. These are not cynical questions Father - there has been a real sea change and I am at a loss as to why? Is the Church making its message more palatable.
@Mrmentalmadness123 I do not expect the Church to be permanent or static - like any institution it will change over time. But does not that ability to change question the validity of the idea of its eternal messages. Isn't the Church subject to moral political and philosophical revision? If so, and I believe it is - does this not make it of men rather than of a God outside that creation?
@Mrmentalmadness123 why is it non-believers cannot fathom that they have done wicked things? Would you prefer that those who have murdered, raped, and done horrible things just be given a free pass into heaven?
@Mrmentalmadness123 Why? Why do you assume that a God would "evolve" past such things? No "self-respecting deity"? God does not change to fit yours or my views. He is what He is. He forgives freely, even during his death on the Cross. He has the right to judge us, knowing exactly what our ultimate purpose is and what He has given us and how we spit on those gifts. That's called justice: giving to us that which we deserve. God has given everything, so He deserves everything.
@jonhasaheart There you go. You know the mind and motivations of God and you feel free to tell the rest of us about his nature. How do you know? You cannot provide a shred of evidence for the existence of God so how on earth can you know his thoughts? At least I am honest - there is no evidence in my view.
@Mrmental Well, the fact is that I do have evidence for God being real, namely His involvement in history through Christ. Your issue is that you choose not to trust the fact that a Jewish man was running around claiming to be God. I choose to trust His words; you choose not to. But that's your right. Why is it again that you're calling me out on professing what I believe God to have said, while at the same time claiming that you know that there is no evidence that He exists?
@jonhasaheart But you show no evidence other than your own belief that a God does exist. There were lots of men throughout history and stll are claiming to be God - Mohammed, Krishna etc etc etc. The same rules apply - lets see real hard evidence.
What is petty about the idea of justice? The most beautiful thing about God is that he was, is and is to come. God is morality, and he is the only being able to provide true justice.
@Franklin14372 Justice is good. You will not convince me that God is just. That's why we have secular laws. God advocates cutting off the hands of thieves - stoning children to death - killing every living thing in villages that worship other Gods etc etc etc. He flooded the earth (allegedly) to punish his own children. If that is justice I'll take my chances without God thank you. Religion retards us! You should perhaps revise what you consider to be beautiful? Maybe you are too far gone?
@Mrmentalmadness123 God makes the rules, not you or me. If your idea of justice is different from God's, then you are wrong for He made the rules that govern the universe. Your disbelief of God doesn't exempt you from His law. One day, most likely when you die, you will have to face God's Justice, as we all will.
I hope you are prepared when that day comes, for it will be here sooner than you think.
This is so untrue. The bible says that vengeance belongs to God. God is just, and a just judge. He does justice for the oppressed and those who have been wronged. He visits justice and punishment on those who do evil, as He is perfectly just and holy, and all his judgements are inscrutable. If men pay back and exact revenge unjustly, it is because they are wicked. God is not a human being, and we do not owe to human beings adoration and obedience.
You have a very defective idea of God. God is unchanging and infinite in His perfections. God is the just judge of all. It is God who decrees exactly what man must and must not do, and then enforces His holy law. He, as our creator, benefactor, savior - who became incarnate and died for us - and our final judge, has the authority and right to command us, and command obedience from us. We must love and obey God. Souls perish who despise Gods love.
Hell is a religious threat to get people to behave in ways the Church endorses. A punishment that no-one can escape is non-ending and inevitable if we sin badly enough. People are outgrowing this stuff Father. Even if we accept the reality of a creator God,the idea of Hell makes no logical or evidential sense. To say it is self imposed is simply trying to soften the harsh historical message used over the centuries to get people to comply.
How do you know a hell exists at all? On what evidrence would we believe there is a life after our physical death. Hell simply cannot be accepted as truth even if Jesus did allegedly talk of it. There is no historical evidence of a Christ either so why are we encouraged to believe in something for which there is no logic or proof. It doesn't matter to me as a logical man how many theologians assert that Hell exists. It is unprovable by any evidential standard. Why waste time debating this.
This is a good interview with Rob Bell about his book: wwwDOTpremierDOTtv/Top%20Videos-%20Rob%20Bell.aspx
I believe all are saved at Calvary, & are free to reject God's salvation in their lives by their own acts - God is active to save us, but our final refusal of God is also within His Providence; & that both those who stay in His salvation, & those who reject it, accomplish his Will, in different ways.
@wordonfirevideo I watched the video. I find the rhetoric baffling in light of the stark and terrorizing Catholic teaching about Hell without hint of allegory or metaphor provided by Catholic priests and nuns utilizing the official Catechism throughout most of the 20th Century. The Fatima graphic description of never-ending pain from fire was emphasized in every Catholic school. It was psychological child abuse. Both the Hell Doctrine, and the Purgatory Doctrine, are the epitome of evil.
The reality is worse than mere fire or worms could be - a metaphor is not a way of saying "this is not real", but of saying: "this thing A stands for this thing B". Hell is not a reality in this world - so we have to use imagery for it; such as fire. The pain of Hell is the loss of God, & to lose God is to lose, through our own fault, the only reason for existing at all. God forces no-one to love Him - to do so, would be cruel. To reject God for ever, is to choose Hell.
@TenderTrap86 We should focus on doing all that is possible to reduce crime. Remorseless, violent criminals are mentally ill and should be imprisoned for life. I have no way of knowing what happens after death.
@Lyc360 - "I have no way of knowing what happens after death." -
I don't *know*,, what happens after death, either. The Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed are the official, concise summaries of the Catholic faith, and they both begin with the words "I believe.". Not "I know",, or "I have suffucient evidence" or "I have conclusive data."
@TenderTrap86 Well we agree that neither of us know what happens after death. I was taught to say the Nicene Creed as a little child in Catholic School with the dire warning that I must believe all Catholic dogma or go to Hell. Fear was the principle means of indoctrination. In those days we all went to confession every Saturday in order lessen our time in Purgatory (described as the same as Hell only temporary) and after puberty to stay out of Hell because of those daily "impure" thoughts!
@Lyc360 - " was taught to say the Nicene Creed as a little child in Catholic School with the dire warning that I must believe all Catholic dogma or go to Hell" -
Whoever taught you this is wrong. This is not what the Church believes..Salvation is open teverybody, as long as they do the will of God. It's in the Catechism.
- "after puberty to stay out of Hell because of those daily "impure" thoughts!" -
It's willfully *entertaining* the impure thoughts, that is sinful.
@TenderTrap86 You state: “ Whoever taught you this is wrong. This is not what the Church believes..Salvation is open teverybody(sic), as long as they do the will of God. It's in the Catechism.” I don’t know what Catechism you are reading but if you deny just one core doctrine of the Church you have committed a mortal sin. You will go to hell if you don’t confess that mortal sin. That is unambibuously in the Catechism of my youth (pre-1993 available online) and has never been rejected.
@TenderTrap86 You state” It’s willfully entertaining the impure thoughts that is sinful.” If you experienced the powerful sex drive of most boys passing through puberty, you know sexual fantasies occurred with only the slightest provocation (a nude sculpture for example) every day. The powerfully, seductive nature of those thoughts guaranteed they would be “entertained”. According to Catholic teaching, hell is crowded with young boys who didn’t make it to confession prior to a fatal accident.
@wordonfirevideo Thanks for the promotion from 3rd grade to 6th grade. The last time you replied to my statement quoting the Catechism verbatum concerning the Church’s unambiguous teaching about sexual thoughts and masturbation, you offered no rebuttal other than a similar ad hominem 3rd grade remark. Do you endorse terrorizing kids unitil the 6th grade with threats of eternal suffering? The fact remains, teaching of eternal torment for being sexually normal, was upheld throughout high school.
@Lyc360 What you're arguing here is nowhere even in the ballpark of what the Catechism teaches, and you know it. You're clinging to memories of your bad formation. God is love, and he glories in his creatures being fully alive. That's Catholic teaching.
@TenderTrap86 Correction in spelling - "principal" instead of principle. I guess you can surmise from my comment that I do not consider belief in anything without evidence as a virtue. I do not accept arguments from authority unless that authority can provide evidence to support his or her contention. I have no respect for religion's reliance upon fear, guilt and shame to brainwash young, credulous children.
@Lyc360 It's not indoctrination if it is the Truth. Is it indoctrination if I teach a child that 2 + 2 = 4? Or am I infringing upon his or her ability to decide that 2 + 2 = 5?
We care little for your "respect". You are a finite, flawed human being who will most likely be gone in 50 or so. All that matters is to preach the Truth, and allow others to hopefully come to that Truth themselves. You cannot "force" someone to believe something anyways.
@drdst17 If you threaten young children with excruciating, eternal punishment in order to convince them of your version of "Truth", you demonstrate a lack of rational basis for your so-called truth and you are guilty of psychological child abuse. You are correct in stating that you cannot force someone to believe something. Upon reaching adulthood, many intelligent children whose capability for rational thinking survived the abuse, will reject that teaching as the nonsense that it is.
@Lyc360 Or they will see the wisdom in said Truth, and come to accept it once they have spent time thinking about why it was taught to them in the first place.
Usually they leave because they naturally wish to rebel against it, which is a common human theme in life.
Ultimately the choice is theirs, however. Hopefully they will make the correct choice, because their very souls are at stake.
@drdst17 Your last sentence says it all: "Hopefully they will make the correct choice, because their very souls are at stake". The Church's only argument for making the alleged "right choice" is a threat. However, many cradle Catholics have been able to overcome the fear, guilt and shame method of brainwashing force-fed to them since early childhood, inhibiting their ability to think critically. And that includes thousands of priests who walked away from the Church, especially since Vatican II.
@Lyc360 It's not a threat if it is the TRUTH! If I stand in the middle of the highway, I'm gonna get hit by a car - its the truth, not a threat.
And I was one of those "Cradle Catholics" who left the Church in my late teens to embrace Atheism. It stroked my ego and caused me to fall into a slew of selfish addictions that held me in their thrall for over a decade - and fed misery into my life.
I returned to the Church once I found Christ's peace. Best decision I ever made.
@Lyc360 Catholic mystics and saints have seen hell, gone there, and a few have even suffered its torments while yet living, in order to atone for the sins of others (as Christ did), and help save them from hell. They have seen that many souls in hell didn't believe in it while on earth. We are judged on our works. Knowledge plays an important part, but it is chiefly our works which see us go to heaven or hell.
@sharbel23 What is the verifiable evidence supporting your belief that mystics and saints went to hell and back? Millions of Muslims believe that Muhammad ascended to heaven on the steed Buraq surrounded by angels, spoke to God and returned to Earth with instructions to the faithful on how often to pray each day. Is your evidence any better than the evidence supporting their belief? Or can we conclude there is no credible evidence for either preposterous belief?
If you read the lives of Catholic saints you will see that God Himself bears witness to their enjoying a close union with him, by way of miracles, prophecies, and mystical gifts like the stigmata. These things are not found in any other religion. Padre Pio, who my father met, had the stigmata for over 50 yrs. He would die at 3pm on good friday, and doctors would examine him, observing that all life signs stopped. This happened each year.
@sharbel23 Books endorsed by the Catholic Church about Catholic saints is no place to obtain unbiased information about people declared to be saints by the Catholic Church. Online Wikipedia reveals the controversy concerning Padre Pio’s claim of experiencing stigmata. There is a YouTube video entiltled How to make a stigmata by yourself. It was made by a psychologist and chemist from the University of Pavia 35km from Milan, Italy.
This same holy friar cured a man of blindness after his eyes were damaged in an accident(even destroyed), and a girl born with a congenital eye defect. There are medical records for their conditions prior to their cure. You can read about him in many places. Miracles are a testimony of God, so when the person related going to hell, you believe them because of the clear witness of miracles. Likewise with prophecies which came true. Islam has not one saint or miracle or prophecy
@sharbel23 “There are medical records for their conditions prior to their cure”. What records? Who prepared them? What responsible medical journal reviewed the reports to ascertain credibility? Why is there not a single record of a missing limb miraculously restored? Why have there never been miraculous cures for cleft paletes or people born missing half their brain? Why does god discriminate against these people when he performs curative miracles?
Do you "reasonably hope" that all non-Christians will have a deathbed conversion, or is the hope that God will allow non-Christians into Heaven? Good video by the way. The subject of Hell seems to be taboo with so many Christians.
If hell existed - how could you be happy in heaven knowing a family member/dear friend was in hell. Heaven and hell contradict each other - the logical answer is neither exists. Thats just my opinion though. :D
@Archangel866 Your comment directed to KazgarothUsher reflects your capacity for thoughtful dialogue. You have no choice but to attack since you are incapable of providing a reasoned response.
What of the resurrection? If I'm not mistaken RCC teaches that everybody eventually get resurrected into physical bodies. Does that apply to the damned? If so, will hell be a physical place at that time?
I was taught that hell is knowing, after you die, about the party in heaven, and that you missed out on it. If hell is a door locked from the inside, then can people in hell choose to join God's party whenever they wish? If all that is true, someone would have to be truly perverse to stay in hell, and I doubt that anyone would choose that.
But this all just seems absurd to me. I don't think I'll be making any choices after I'm dead. Choice is time-bound, and heaven is supposedly eternal.
@jontv If you in fact leave, you weren't in Hell, you were in Purgatory. And is it really possible that you have never met a severely depressed, dysfunctional, or addicted person who decides to stay in a condition that is in fact detrimental to him? It happens all over the world, every day.
@wordonfirevideo - No, I think it makes a good amount of sense on Earth. The question is why in the hell would I assume that it works the same way after death?
Your answer doesn't clarify much. Are you saying that when you die, you go to Purgatory if you will eventually see the light, and Hell if you won't? Did CS Lewis misspeak, or was he using "Hell" metaphorically, for the earthly afflictions you referenced?
See, this is like most mythology: it's useful until you try to take it literally.
@jontv Well, why wouldn't it work after death? I mean, if we're still in possession of intellect, will, and freedom, why couldn't those continue to be used properly or abused? And your problem is coming precisely from your tendency to literalize these symbols. In point of fact, God doesn't "send" anyone to these "places." They are symbols of states of being produced by our reaction to the divine love.
@wordonfirevideo - I see no reason to believe that we would still be in possession of those things. All of them, as well as emotions, choices, will, knowledge, and ignorance are all functions of time and space. I suppose you could say "all things are possible in God", but if you can't suggest a more coherent vision for how/when/where this would be happening, then I don't see how I can believe it will. It works as a metaphor but metaphors aren't literally real. You want to have it both ways.
@wordonfirevideo - As for God's role in this, from what you've said, I must infer that hell and purgatory are the same state, and you just assign one word or the other depending on the ultimate outcome. Why two different words, then? Is that really Catholic teaching, or are you just trying to make sense of a tradition that never entirely made sense?
My understanding on Catholic teaching always was that the Church has never declared that a specific person is in hell, but it does teach that there are people there. Am I wrong here?
Substituting "reasonably believe" for "know" is intellectual weaseling. It unasks the question, depends upon a positive tautology, and thus can be used to prove or defend anything "nice". Don't deceptively set this side by side with Origen and Augustine and Aquinas, to try to make such soft nonsense appear rigorous and dependable.
Interestingly Matthew 7:13 indicates that many have gone to hell (destruction). "...For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it". Further the Council of Florence describes hell as a "punishment" for those who die in mortal or original sin alone. Again the idea that people refuse to leave hell is not Biblical. In fact Luke 16:24 indicates that one can be refused an exit, even when one considers the salvation of others (Luke 16:26-28).
The modern notion that people put themselves in hell strikes me as being absurd if one believes in free will. That with full knowledge of the best position that someone should choose the worst seems the act of a mad man and not a sane man, Further the notion seems to have little biblical support. Matt13:50, Rev 14:10, Rev 20:15 which show God throwing sinners into hell
@wordonfirevideo. I agree that these two categories do irrational things SOME of the time. I disagree that depressed and addicted people choose their behaviour WITH FREE WILL. Addicted people often talk of feeling compelled and depressed people do not know how to break out of the depression.That they have awareness of the behaviour they "choose" does not mean that they choose from free will. Without the compulsion they would choose otherwise. P.S.You have not addressed the biblical quotes.
@wordonfirevideo . I would say that "sin" is more based on ignorance and habitual sin is more like addiction. In either case there is no real free will and as such hell cannot be justified since temptation is like having a gun put to one's head or being deceived. - Bearing in mind that the scripture sources I gave show that God throws people into hell. Take away the appetites and give people full free will then they must choose the better option.
About Christopher Hitchins: "From the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. A good person brings forth good out of a store of goodness, but an evil person brings forth evil out of a store of evil". -Jesus of Nazareth
About Christopher Hitchins: "I tell you, on the day of judgement people will render an account for every careless word they speak. By your words you will be aquitted, and by your words you will be condemned".
@StartContaversy1 . One of the definitions of pray is "to ask."--to entreat or implore. In Protestant theology, the word has mistakenly always taken on the connotation to worship, but that is not what Catholics do in praying to the saints.
If you were sick or in need and you asked me to pray for you, that would not be offensive to God, and that would certainly not take away from the one mediatorship of Jesus.
@BobbyR6314 very true. here is another question sir. this point was presented by my muslim friend and it is a very good point. is jesus god? if so then why in matthew he sad father father why hast thou forsaken me, why would he say that to himself? i understand he was supposed to be crucified. I am a catholic but i could not retort. Hopefully you can provide some good point for this.
@StartContaversy1 Muslims do not believe in a triune God. They dont believe that God is a Trinity; therefore your friend would naturally have been confused when He refers to that passage when Jesus calls to His Father -and ours. Jesus spoke a quotation from Psalm 22, the words of the suffering servant. He may have been reacting, in his humanity ( Jesus was God and man) , to the separation between himself and the Father which resulted from his having taken the sin of the world upon himself.
@BobbyR6314 yeah i told him he was still man but he can't seem to understand that. i don't want to remove his faith but i want him to understand our point of view. he also says if he was god why was he born? why didn't he just step into the world? i said i was unsure but maybe its god's way of coming into our world.
This homily on St. Leonard of Port Maurice, whose homily "On the Fewness of Catholics Who are Saved," is more sound than von Balthasar and the new wave of sentimental semi-universalist thinking in the Catholic Church. I don't think von Balthasar's ideas are helping people take penance seriously, and creates, in the masses of Catholics, a notion that salvation is easy. Though they might deny this outright, I believe in practice they believe this.
@RomeFell But honestly, man, does that strike you as "good news?" The message of Jesus is a message of euangelion (glad tidings). The confident proclamation that only a tiny handful of people will be saved just strikes me as anti-evangelical.
@wordonfirevideo Thank you for your response. I have a great deal of respect for what you're doing, and often direct people who seek answers to our faith to your videos.
I don't believe St. Leonard meant that there will be a "tiny handful" of saved people. If one reads his homily, it appears that he is speaking of mankind throughout the ages seems to be stiff-necked, and is not inclined to take the straight and narrow road. The good news is that there is a path for our salvation, not a number.
@RomeFell Well, I can utterly subscribe to that! What I've defended from the beginning is the proposition that we can reasonably hope (hope, please, not know) that all people will be saved. I feel obliged to say this, precisely because the church prays for it, and lex orandi lex credendi. What I don't appreciate is the insinuation that I am thereby advocating some wimpy, anything-goes spirituality. I'm teaching what the church teaches. And yes, we shouldn't play the numbers game!
@wordonfirevideo Of course you're not advocating an anything goes spirituality. Not you, Fr. But between von Balthasar and St. Leonard, I think St. Leonard takes better account of damnation. The effects of semi-universalism on the masses, I believe, is sentimentalism and easy salvation--not your notion of hoping for the salvation of all men. It is difficult to take von Balthasar seriously in light of Christ's teaching on hell and the fact that a third of the angels, who saw God, still rebelled.
@RomeFell You're right on target regarding the teaching I, and all other Catholics of my generation, received in Catholic schools taught by Catholic clergy. Hell, in accordance with that teaching, is filled with people who physically suffer excruciating pain from fire forever. That's the "good news" we received. We were taught that Purgatory was as excruciatingly painful except the suffering was not eternal. And just about everyone goes to Purgatory!
There is no hell in the Torah, and the 'concept' of 'eternal judgment' is false. The correct useage of the word was it was plural, so it was Eternals' Judgement, referring to how all JUDGMENT belongs to the ETERNAL ONE or god.
The omnipotent GOD controls both sides of the board, I create Light and I create Dark, I the LORD do all things. So that's why Immanuel said DO NOT JUDGE, since the game is completely controlled by god. IT IS ALL GoOD.
@sollogs That is a very dangerous belief. I do not believe that God controls everything that happens, for that would imply he is, in fact, quite cruel. No, rather I believe He, in his wisdom, has chosen to let us decide and act entirely on our own accord.
Hell in a small way is like the experiences of those people who have been stranded in different situations. If you read their accounts, it gives an insight into the human mind and all the physical and spiritual struggles. The big difference for those who are in Hell is, they will never be rescued or loved and they will continue to live in a state of misery, longing, guilt and all negativity of the mind with no end in sight.
I think Jesus is very clear about a crowed hell when He states "Enter by the narrow gate: for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few." There doesn't seem to be much room for alternative interpretations. And the context only supports the very strong reality that most men will most likely willingly choice hell over heaven.
It's no accident that Origen hasn't been canonized.
As for Sts. Augustine & Aquinas, it's not about whether their words on hell were dark. It's about whether they were true. I'll take the side of these two Saints and greatest minds of the Church over Origen and, especially, the modernist infected von Balthasar.
And are we to forget that Jesus Himself said that the gate to destruction is wide and many enter it? See Matthew 7.
"Woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."
If it would have been better for Judas to have never been born, it's safe to say he's not in heaven, and nor will he ever be. Therefore all cannot be saved. What will our Lord have to say to those of us who spent our days arguing over whether it's theoretically possible that everyone is saved while people are dropping into hell all around us?
St. Isaac the Syrian writes:" Sin, hell and death do not exist at all with God, for they are effects, not substances. Sin is the fruit of free will. There was a time when sin did not exist, and there will be a time when it will not exist. Hell is the fruit of sin. At some point in time it had a beginning, but its end is not known. Death, however, is a dispensation of the wisdom of the Creator. It will rule only a short time over nature; then it will be totally abolished.
N. Berdiayev writes: "Humanity has entered a stage when a frightening and threatening element of religion with cruel penalties contributes only to the success of militant atheism. if formerly the idea of hell retained people in the Church, it now only pushes them away as a sadistic idea, and prevents them from to the Church. A juridical religion is no longer suitable for man; man is too much tormented by the world..."
@wyss20 Thus, according to St. Isaac hell will be destroyed. Yet the end of Gehenna is something we can not understand, and St. Isaac's opinions go beyond the limits of the dogmatic teaching of the Orthodox Church. It believes it would be a heresy to insist on the necessity of salvation of all, but it is not a heresy to believe in the possibility of the salvation of all.
I'll say this, Apacalola, and then leave this discussion - I pray you are correct, and I'm wrong. My reading of Scripture and Tradition leads me to believe that the modern(ist) belief in near-universal, salvation, is horribly, disastrously erroneous. I fear many souls are being led down the primrose path. So I pray you are correct, and I'm wrong, and that I hold an antiquated vision of the Faith. If so, pray for my conversion .I pray for God's Grace to fill my soul with His Truth, always.
You're not addressing my points, you're seizing on a small aspect of what I said and distorting it uncharitably. My point is that Scripture and Tradition both say hell is a real destination for many, perhaps even most people. That's not fear, it's the Truth Christ has revealed through His Church. That you don't like this Truth doesn't make it any less real. Present your evidence from Scripture and Tradition that this Truth is not so, and I'll listen. No modernist exegets, please.
@hckyplyr90 Nice point. I've gotten to the point that I've stopped taking most people seriously when they attack the Church by bringing up the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Reformation, or Galileo, unless they provide a reliable reference (this doesn't include books by professors at obscure protestant universities whose publications are based on self-referential citations). There is a frustratingly large amount of false information reported and ignorance on these subjects.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" comes form Ecclesiasticus, written hundreds of years before the Church came intoexistence. This belief was universal to Christendom for most of its history, until the disaster of proto-modernism. Holy fear is nothing to be ashamed of, nor is it abusive - it is, according to God, through the Holy Spirit, the first stage to wisdom. Preferably, we do not remain at that stage, but if we do, we may at least have that fear to guide us to salvation.
@hckyplyr90 Well you were born several centuries too late. You would have been right at home during the six hundred year long Catholic Inquisition when fear was the principle motivator to assure people didn't think for themselves but expressed their "belief" in all the doctrines the Catholic Church required them to believe.
Continuing - historically, the Church has said the former. It is better to err on the side of caution, as it were. Your belief could be a large factor in the indifferentism, collapsing Mass attendance, and numerous other problems facing the Church today. Many think - why bother if we all go to Heaven? It is beautiful to serve God out of love, but, sadly, our nature makes it perhaps necessary that many serve more out of fear. That fear, is, after all, the beginning of wisdom.
@hckyplyr90 Fear, guilt and shame were the principal motivators utilized by the Catholic Church to indoctrinate credulous children. It was abject psychological child abuse. Fear is an effective means to suppress rational thinking.
Since being crowded refers to things of a material nature in excessive close proximity, and Hell would be of a spiritual plain, where nothing of a material nature can exist, the video title sounds particularly stupid and pointless.
JeffersonDinedAlone 1 day ago
Interesting video and I hope Fr Barron is right, but I wonder how he would explain this:
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few. (Matt. 7:13-14).
adanak 3 days ago
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Jesus Christ was clear: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." (Matthew 7:13). So no, not all people would be saved I disagree with that. And the first of them was Judas Iscariot, the son of the damned. And if Hell was just a place with no fire and screaming etc.. like Jesus described it, then all those saints who saw visions about heaven and hell are hallucinating,& the Catechism of the Ca.Ch. is wrong.
blackenergy 6 days ago
God is not religious. People are religious. God is open to all.
JeffersonDinedAlone 1 week ago
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blackenergy 1 week ago
But I don't like parties.
djhalling 1 week ago
@djhalling Depends entirely upon the party.
JeffersonDinedAlone 1 week ago
@Lyc360 LMGO LOL you look like those kids whining and crying over spilled milk
LOL
Grow up kid... Stop Blaming and compaining and Grow Up...
I was like that as well till i woke up and start reading and studying Bible and catechism myself...
That's how u should do if you really wanna grow
crying over spilled milk doesn't help nor complaining, accusing and blaming ppl
hodriguinhohunter 1 week ago
@hodriguinhohunter I note from your profile that you are 28 years old and therefore have no experience in growing up in the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church. However at your age you should understand that when you ridicule someone, you are really making a statement about yourself.
Apacalola 1 week ago
@Apacalola Me? Ridiculing Someone? you are ridiculing urself my man... And my advice(if you wanna take it) is that you stop ridiculing urself accusing this and that, and start to get deep on faith yourself. An advice that makes someone wake up isn't ridiculing oneself, rather a Word of Love that tries to take someone out of a hole.
Get out! Be Man! Complains won't help... Actions Help a little better than pointing fingers
hodriguinhohunter 1 week ago
@hodriguinhohunter "Me? Ridiculing Someone?" You certainly were and your claim of providing "advice that makes someone wake up" does nothing to change the fact that you relied upon ridicule rather than reason. You are guilty of an ad hominem attack - attack the arguer instead of the argument. An ad hominem attack is a classic example of a fallacy of logic and rhetoric. It is always used to focus negative attention on someone in order to hide an inability to provide a cogent argument.
Apacalola 1 week ago
@Apacalola LOL
Definitely you like to complain and accuse ppl to hide your own errors...
Stop that honey
Time to get out of that stage...
hodriguinhohunter 1 week ago
@hodriguinhohunter You refer to me as "honey"! There you go again. Your reliance on ridicule is apparently the only means you have to support your views - whatever they might be.
Apacalola 1 week ago
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Lyc360 1 week ago
How do we know what Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? the unpardonable sin? How do we determine is this?
kubrox91 1 week ago
heretic.
takethetimetoday 1 week ago
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takethetimetoday 1 week ago
As I read through the tread of comments on this video by Fr. Barron, it seems that many are expecting him to answer for every weird thing they might have heard from a parish priest or random Catholic. Newsflash: Not EVERYTHING we learned in Catechism class or the sermon at Mass was really necessarily orthodox Catholicism. It's funny that when we want to know how to spell a word or verify a biographical detail, we know where to look, but some folks still can't define authentic Catholic teaching.
billybagbom 2 weeks ago
Would it be fair to say, Father, that Western doctrine on hell has come full circle back to where the East has always been? Also, would you also like to comment on what I think is the crystalization of a medieval, literal interpretation of hell among fundamentalist evangelical protestants, especially Calvinists? They seem to have inherited the medieval, literal Roman Catholic version of hell and are unable to get beyond this. Any thoughts? thanks for the vid, btw Very thoughtful and enlightening
brendos444 2 weeks ago
@brendos444 Yes, I think we've come closer to the East in many ways. I would say that someone like Hans Urs von Balthasar "Origenized" Augustine quite a bit. It's his theory that I'm advocating here.
wordonfirevideo 2 weeks ago
@wordonfirevideo Too bad you are taking the heretic views of the modernist Urs Von Balthasar, father, more of the rotten theology of Vatican II. I will pray for you.
qvoprimum 3 days ago
@qvoprimum You sound like a product of that pre-Vatican II "Old Time Religion" just like me. Back then the Hell was the real deal where sinners (just about all teenage boys guilty of thought crime) would burn forever in actual fire. Ah yes "Give me that old time religion, that old time religion...."
Apacalola 8 hours ago
Everybody has their own opinion about it. It ends up becoming like a Rorschach test, "Tell me what you see?". Some people's answers might be similar, some very different. The problem ends up being the arrogance of just KNOWING that you are right, and due to that establishing and spreading an opinion as if it were facts.
Marcloud 3 weeks ago
Salvation was originally a Jewish idea: the nation of Israel would be saved from exile and/or captivity; or an individual Jew would be saved from physical death. Hell was developed to make Jews feel better by saying their enemies would be punished in an afterlife for causing Jews to suffer in this life. Thus, proposing that hell is just a metaphor for withdrawing from a great party in the sky is too far of a stretch from the original Jewish teaching. Hell requires a triumph of good over evil.
StormTrek 3 weeks ago
"The doors of hell are locked from the inside"......
imax1971 3 weeks ago 5
@imax1971 Must make it awfully tough to get out if there is an actual fire while a band is performing.
JeffersonDinedAlone 1 week ago
I am reminded of the man who refused to sell all of his possessions to follow Christ and walked away saddened. "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of Heaven", to which the response came "who then can be saved?" and to that the answer; "with men it is impossible, but with God, all things are possible."
TastetheTeardrops 3 weeks ago
its not arrogant enough to claim you have the one right religion, but how to worship and interperet it correctly too? this is nothing but your opinion the answers you thought out (or quite possibly hope for) on questions no one could possibly know ever! im a little bit tired of ppl in funny costumes or with special neck collars thinking they have an authority to speak on absolutely everything, the origins of the universe, the origin of life, and my favourite, what happens when you die.
okely231 3 weeks ago
Hell may have souls still within. But in the end, it will be thoroughly emptied. Because in the end, Love wins. And it always will.
FollowerOfTheGods 4 weeks ago
@FollowerOfTheGods This is heretical.
cameronneal93 3 weeks ago
@cameronneal93 Often, the ones who accuse the "heretics" are the heretics themselves.
FollowerOfTheGods 3 weeks ago
Fr. Barron just has this natural gift of being able to take complete command of the listener. God bless him and his good works!
AK8591 4 weeks ago
@AK8591 Not all listeners! Many people do not blindly accept arguments from authority but require those "authorities" to back up their contentions with evidence! Barron provides no evidence for his religious beliefs. He has faith in the veracity of Catholic doctrine based upon his Catholic upbringing just as millions of Muslims have faith in Islamic doctrine based upon their Muslim upbringing. Geography is a principal determinant of one's religion.
Apacalola 3 weeks ago
@Apacalola Well said!
Mrmentalmadness123 3 weeks ago
@SOS763 Are you being censored because of your foul language or are you deleting your own responses. Either way, chill out. You called me a cretin, and I mentioned my education to show you that I'm not - in fact - a cretin. You'd be crushed in a real debate, so you cover up yout philosophical ignorance with foul language. Have fun with that.
jonhasaheart 1 month ago
I think most people seem to underestimate the limitlessness of the grace of God. The result of semi-universalism should not be easy thinking, but pure happiness and gratefulness to God. And the fact that this kingdom of God already starts here, in people's hearts, should encourage the effort of trying to be a part of that, by loving your fellow men. I think that throughout the ages the grace of God has been revealed to us more and more, just look at the Divine Mercy visions. Grace abounds now.
blablabla1864 1 month ago
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For important truths on the traditional Catholic Faith, its necessity for salvation, proof of Catholicism in the Bible, creation, miracles, and what really happened to the Catholic Church after Vatican II, please visit channel: MHFM1.
8marioch 1 month ago
@mrmentalmadness God doesn't send people to hell, he sent his only begotten Son into the world to be the ultimate sacrifice so that no one would have to go to hell despite original sin. Instead, people reject God. How can God be with people who refuse to acknowledge him?
And yes, youtube near death experiences of former atheists who come back from hell or youtube exorcisms if that's not enough for you to believe in the existence of evil.
Flippers456 1 month ago
Someone once told me that: " If you are rejected by other people - socially excluded - then you have been rejected by God. "
Would internetters please comment on this and say if they think this to be true or otherwise a false idea.
WPGS25041941 1 month ago
@WPGS25041941 false, God rejects no man, Jesus healed, and forgave those rejected by society.
philosophizer149 1 month ago
Eternal life. Another way of saying give me your money you gullible fool.
symplythebest 1 month ago
@symplythebest atheism. Another way of giving a simplistic view of life for gullible fools.
philosophizer149 1 month ago
@philosophizer149 Atheism in not a religion. It is a state of mind that questions every claim.
symplythebest 1 month ago
@symplythebest except atheism. Thats confusing atheism with skepticism, all atheism by itself is, is the claim that God doesn't exist, or probably doesn't exist.
philosophizer149 1 month ago
wow that was really enlightening! thanks father :)
dipsaucerose 1 month ago
Mrmentalmadness, you're not taking into account history accurately. You're posturing that there's no evidence or logic to it. Ultimately, you are simply dismissing it, albeit it cleverly but frivolously. This isn't about the existence of hell. Hell exists whether you think so or not. It's about you're ability to not grasp, you clearly have that, but rather acknowledge it. I would point to the varied sources of well documented experiences of others when it comes to this subject.
Flippers456 1 month ago
@Flippers456 Have people who have been to Hell provided evidence for you. Now that would be interesting! Why would God want us to suffer in Hell? Are we not his children? I could never commit my children to hell - could you? In all honesty - could you?
Mrmentalmadness123 1 month ago
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@Mrmentalmadness123 Of course not, but Hell is not a place that God commits people to, it is a spiritual state were the tension created between the persons hatred and rejection of God, coupled with the fullness of God's presence result in suffering. Picture it as a Father who goes to hug the son who hates him, since the son hates him, his fathers very embrace is a torment unto him. But all the Father does is demonstrate his love for his son.
dannytibi 1 month ago
Google these two things if your interested:
Dr. Alexander Kalomiros: THE RIVER OF FIRE
Life After Death chapter 8 Gregory of Nyssa
JGGalas 1 month ago
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tornadoparrot 1 month ago
Be naughty and fail to follow the path of Christ and you'll go to Hell. Yep, that sounds like the words of an extremely enlightened empathetic being.
SOS763 1 month ago
@SOS763
Your reply belies your already preconceived notion of what "enlightened" means.
Sorry buddy, this ain't Buddhism.
We have been given free choice: we choose to be "naughty", which means we choose against God. It is an act of hatred and betrayal; betraying the God that loves us. So when we make that choice freely, we freely choose to be as far away from God as possible. We choose hell.
jonhasaheart 1 month ago
@SOS763 You said: "We are being naughty by being unimpressed with the evidence for Christ's claims? Which justifies a so called enlightened creators idea that he must torture those who chose to live lives without the **** of a Jewish attention seeker? Listen, buddy; you're right, this ain't buddhism. It's Christianity. A FALSE, retarded, fascistic, bullyish - all round ****ing stupid belief system for cretins like you. I actually hope hell exists - people like you deserve a front seat"
jonhasaheart 1 month ago
@SOS763 What a hilarious post. First, I'm fairly sure that - even as a "cretin" - I already have about 3 years of education over your head, and by the time I'm done, I'll have about 9 years of education post-graduate, so I think I'm doing pretty good for myself. Second, you wouldn't sound so ignorant if you could actually critique Christianity without resorting to junk words that really contain little to no substance.
jonhasaheart 1 month ago
@SOS763 With that being said, you STILL managed to misrepresent Christian beliefs. Again, we believe that God does not actively punish us. Just like a person who makes bad choices in life and harms themselves in the process - something that is completely their own fault - when we choose against God, we believe that we are choosing against what is actually our ultimate good. Unless they change, they made their choice: God gives us what we chose in life, an existence that is devoid of Him.
jonhasaheart 1 month ago
@SOS763 And that's hell. So you can feel free to set up those straw men, but you'd only be tricking yourself in to thinking that you're some great opponent of Christianity when in reality, you're only arguing against a construct that most Christians - especially Catholics - do not even believe in the first place. You have yourself a good day.
jonhasaheart 1 month ago
Wouldn't a God have evolved to get past petty human jealousies and anger and retribution? The whole idea and concept of Hell has a human stench to it that no self respecting deity would need or operate. Otherwise God is no more moral than the worst of us and we have nothing to learn from him.
Mrmentalmadness123 1 month ago
@Mrmentalmadness123 What is petty about saying that the divine love can be rejected and that that rejection causes suffering? That's what the symbol of Hell is meant to convey.
wordonfirevideo 1 month ago 15
@wordonfirevideo So Hell is a symbol? It was certainly not symbolic when sold to me and my cohort as a 5 year old. Is this a softening of the position to somehow smooth away the threat of a horrific afterlife as a means of social control or does your own view detract from that of official dogma. These are not cynical questions Father - there has been a real sea change and I am at a loss as to why? Is the Church making its message more palatable.
Mrmentalmadness123 1 month ago
@Mrmentalmadness123 I do not expect the Church to be permanent or static - like any institution it will change over time. But does not that ability to change question the validity of the idea of its eternal messages. Isn't the Church subject to moral political and philosophical revision? If so, and I believe it is - does this not make it of men rather than of a God outside that creation?
Mrmentalmadness123 1 month ago
@wordonfirevideo Hmm that is a modern interpration of hell-- -- in the past people actually had a more literial view of hell.
IF there is a hell it would probably be something like being tortured by the inqustition
badpanda84 1 month ago
@wordonfirevideo It that offical catholic teaching -- ( that it is merely a symbol or methpor)
Because that is not what the catholic church was preaching a few centuries ago
badpanda84 1 month ago
@Mrmentalmadness123 why is it non-believers cannot fathom that they have done wicked things? Would you prefer that those who have murdered, raped, and done horrible things just be given a free pass into heaven?
philosophizer149 1 month ago
@philosophizer149 I haven't done any wicked things. Are you saying that only atheists commit offences? This is silly.
Mrmentalmadness123 1 month ago
@Mrmentalmadness123 Why? Why do you assume that a God would "evolve" past such things? No "self-respecting deity"? God does not change to fit yours or my views. He is what He is. He forgives freely, even during his death on the Cross. He has the right to judge us, knowing exactly what our ultimate purpose is and what He has given us and how we spit on those gifts. That's called justice: giving to us that which we deserve. God has given everything, so He deserves everything.
jonhasaheart 1 month ago
@jonhasaheart There you go. You know the mind and motivations of God and you feel free to tell the rest of us about his nature. How do you know? You cannot provide a shred of evidence for the existence of God so how on earth can you know his thoughts? At least I am honest - there is no evidence in my view.
Mrmentalmadness123 1 month ago
@Mrmental Well, the fact is that I do have evidence for God being real, namely His involvement in history through Christ. Your issue is that you choose not to trust the fact that a Jewish man was running around claiming to be God. I choose to trust His words; you choose not to. But that's your right. Why is it again that you're calling me out on professing what I believe God to have said, while at the same time claiming that you know that there is no evidence that He exists?
jonhasaheart 1 month ago
@jonhasaheart But you show no evidence other than your own belief that a God does exist. There were lots of men throughout history and stll are claiming to be God - Mohammed, Krishna etc etc etc. The same rules apply - lets see real hard evidence.
Mrmentalmadness123 3 weeks ago
What is petty about the idea of justice? The most beautiful thing about God is that he was, is and is to come. God is morality, and he is the only being able to provide true justice.
Franklin14372 3 weeks ago
@Franklin14372 Justice is good. You will not convince me that God is just. That's why we have secular laws. God advocates cutting off the hands of thieves - stoning children to death - killing every living thing in villages that worship other Gods etc etc etc. He flooded the earth (allegedly) to punish his own children. If that is justice I'll take my chances without God thank you. Religion retards us! You should perhaps revise what you consider to be beautiful? Maybe you are too far gone?
Mrmentalmadness123 3 weeks ago
@Mrmentalmadness123 God makes the rules, not you or me. If your idea of justice is different from God's, then you are wrong for He made the rules that govern the universe. Your disbelief of God doesn't exempt you from His law. One day, most likely when you die, you will have to face God's Justice, as we all will.
I hope you are prepared when that day comes, for it will be here sooner than you think.
drdst17 3 weeks ago
@Mrmentalmadness123
This is so untrue. The bible says that vengeance belongs to God. God is just, and a just judge. He does justice for the oppressed and those who have been wronged. He visits justice and punishment on those who do evil, as He is perfectly just and holy, and all his judgements are inscrutable. If men pay back and exact revenge unjustly, it is because they are wicked. God is not a human being, and we do not owe to human beings adoration and obedience.
sharbel23 1 week ago
@Mrmentalmadness123
You have a very defective idea of God. God is unchanging and infinite in His perfections. God is the just judge of all. It is God who decrees exactly what man must and must not do, and then enforces His holy law. He, as our creator, benefactor, savior - who became incarnate and died for us - and our final judge, has the authority and right to command us, and command obedience from us. We must love and obey God. Souls perish who despise Gods love.
sharbel23 1 week ago
Hell is a religious threat to get people to behave in ways the Church endorses. A punishment that no-one can escape is non-ending and inevitable if we sin badly enough. People are outgrowing this stuff Father. Even if we accept the reality of a creator God,the idea of Hell makes no logical or evidential sense. To say it is self imposed is simply trying to soften the harsh historical message used over the centuries to get people to comply.
Mrmentalmadness123 1 month ago
How do you know a hell exists at all? On what evidrence would we believe there is a life after our physical death. Hell simply cannot be accepted as truth even if Jesus did allegedly talk of it. There is no historical evidence of a Christ either so why are we encouraged to believe in something for which there is no logic or proof. It doesn't matter to me as a logical man how many theologians assert that Hell exists. It is unprovable by any evidential standard. Why waste time debating this.
Mrmentalmadness123 1 month ago
This is a good interview with Rob Bell about his book: wwwDOTpremierDOTtv/Top%20Videos-%20Rob%20Bell.aspx
I believe all are saved at Calvary, & are free to reject God's salvation in their lives by their own acts - God is active to save us, but our final refusal of God is also within His Providence; & that both those who stay in His salvation, & those who reject it, accomplish his Will, in different ways.
That was one of the best videos so far.
5355vbxjbj76rvn 1 month ago
The doctrine of Hell is the most evil of all Christian doctrines. In fact, it is the most evil of all religious doctrines.
Lyc360 1 month ago
@Lyc360 Did you actually watch the video?!
wordonfirevideo 1 month ago 27
@wordonfirevideo I watched the video. I find the rhetoric baffling in light of the stark and terrorizing Catholic teaching about Hell without hint of allegory or metaphor provided by Catholic priests and nuns utilizing the official Catechism throughout most of the 20th Century. The Fatima graphic description of never-ending pain from fire was emphasized in every Catholic school. It was psychological child abuse. Both the Hell Doctrine, and the Purgatory Doctrine, are the epitome of evil.
Lyc360 1 month ago
@Lyc360
The reality is worse than mere fire or worms could be - a metaphor is not a way of saying "this is not real", but of saying: "this thing A stands for this thing B". Hell is not a reality in this world - so we have to use imagery for it; such as fire. The pain of Hell is the loss of God, & to lose God is to lose, through our own fault, the only reason for existing at all. God forces no-one to love Him - to do so, would be cruel. To reject God for ever, is to choose Hell.
5355vbxjbj76rvn 1 month ago
@Lyc360 So, child molesters, rapists, murderers and thieves, with no remorse for what they've done, should go to Heaven?
TenderTrap86 2 weeks ago
@TenderTrap86 We should focus on doing all that is possible to reduce crime. Remorseless, violent criminals are mentally ill and should be imprisoned for life. I have no way of knowing what happens after death.
Lyc360 2 weeks ago
@Lyc360 - "I have no way of knowing what happens after death." -
I don't *know*,, what happens after death, either. The Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed are the official, concise summaries of the Catholic faith, and they both begin with the words "I believe.". Not "I know",, or "I have suffucient evidence" or "I have conclusive data."
TenderTrap86 2 weeks ago
@TenderTrap86 Well we agree that neither of us know what happens after death. I was taught to say the Nicene Creed as a little child in Catholic School with the dire warning that I must believe all Catholic dogma or go to Hell. Fear was the principle means of indoctrination. In those days we all went to confession every Saturday in order lessen our time in Purgatory (described as the same as Hell only temporary) and after puberty to stay out of Hell because of those daily "impure" thoughts!
Lyc360 2 weeks ago
@Lyc360 - " was taught to say the Nicene Creed as a little child in Catholic School with the dire warning that I must believe all Catholic dogma or go to Hell" -
Whoever taught you this is wrong. This is not what the Church believes..Salvation is open teverybody, as long as they do the will of God. It's in the Catechism.
- "after puberty to stay out of Hell because of those daily "impure" thoughts!" -
It's willfully *entertaining* the impure thoughts, that is sinful.
TenderTrap86 1 week ago
@TenderTrap86 You state: “ Whoever taught you this is wrong. This is not what the Church believes..Salvation is open teverybody(sic), as long as they do the will of God. It's in the Catechism.” I don’t know what Catechism you are reading but if you deny just one core doctrine of the Church you have committed a mortal sin. You will go to hell if you don’t confess that mortal sin. That is unambibuously in the Catechism of my youth (pre-1993 available online) and has never been rejected.
Lyc360 1 week ago
@TenderTrap86 You state” It’s willfully entertaining the impure thoughts that is sinful.” If you experienced the powerful sex drive of most boys passing through puberty, you know sexual fantasies occurred with only the slightest provocation (a nude sculpture for example) every day. The powerfully, seductive nature of those thoughts guaranteed they would be “entertained”. According to Catholic teaching, hell is crowded with young boys who didn’t make it to confession prior to a fatal accident.
Lyc360 1 week ago
@Lyc360 Friend, you really have to graduate from your sixth grade catechism class!
wordonfirevideo 1 week ago
@wordonfirevideo Thanks for the promotion from 3rd grade to 6th grade. The last time you replied to my statement quoting the Catechism verbatum concerning the Church’s unambiguous teaching about sexual thoughts and masturbation, you offered no rebuttal other than a similar ad hominem 3rd grade remark. Do you endorse terrorizing kids unitil the 6th grade with threats of eternal suffering? The fact remains, teaching of eternal torment for being sexually normal, was upheld throughout high school.
Lyc360 1 week ago
@Lyc360 What you're arguing here is nowhere even in the ballpark of what the Catechism teaches, and you know it. You're clinging to memories of your bad formation. God is love, and he glories in his creatures being fully alive. That's Catholic teaching.
wordonfirevideo 1 week ago
@TenderTrap86 Correction in spelling - "principal" instead of principle. I guess you can surmise from my comment that I do not consider belief in anything without evidence as a virtue. I do not accept arguments from authority unless that authority can provide evidence to support his or her contention. I have no respect for religion's reliance upon fear, guilt and shame to brainwash young, credulous children.
Lyc360 2 weeks ago
@Lyc360 It's not indoctrination if it is the Truth. Is it indoctrination if I teach a child that 2 + 2 = 4? Or am I infringing upon his or her ability to decide that 2 + 2 = 5?
We care little for your "respect". You are a finite, flawed human being who will most likely be gone in 50 or so. All that matters is to preach the Truth, and allow others to hopefully come to that Truth themselves. You cannot "force" someone to believe something anyways.
drdst17 2 weeks ago
@drdst17 If you threaten young children with excruciating, eternal punishment in order to convince them of your version of "Truth", you demonstrate a lack of rational basis for your so-called truth and you are guilty of psychological child abuse. You are correct in stating that you cannot force someone to believe something. Upon reaching adulthood, many intelligent children whose capability for rational thinking survived the abuse, will reject that teaching as the nonsense that it is.
Lyc360 2 weeks ago
@Lyc360 Or they will see the wisdom in said Truth, and come to accept it once they have spent time thinking about why it was taught to them in the first place.
Usually they leave because they naturally wish to rebel against it, which is a common human theme in life.
Ultimately the choice is theirs, however. Hopefully they will make the correct choice, because their very souls are at stake.
drdst17 2 weeks ago
@drdst17 Your last sentence says it all: "Hopefully they will make the correct choice, because their very souls are at stake". The Church's only argument for making the alleged "right choice" is a threat. However, many cradle Catholics have been able to overcome the fear, guilt and shame method of brainwashing force-fed to them since early childhood, inhibiting their ability to think critically. And that includes thousands of priests who walked away from the Church, especially since Vatican II.
Lyc360 2 weeks ago
@Lyc360 It's not a threat if it is the TRUTH! If I stand in the middle of the highway, I'm gonna get hit by a car - its the truth, not a threat.
And I was one of those "Cradle Catholics" who left the Church in my late teens to embrace Atheism. It stroked my ego and caused me to fall into a slew of selfish addictions that held me in their thrall for over a decade - and fed misery into my life.
I returned to the Church once I found Christ's peace. Best decision I ever made.
drdst17 1 week ago
@Lyc360 Hell is no more a "doctrine" of the Catholic Church than Pasadena is a "doctrine" of Google Maps.
CosmasNDamian 2 weeks ago
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@Lyc360 Hell is no more a "doctrine" of the Catholic Church than Pasadena is a "doctrine" of Google Maps.
CosmasNDamian 2 weeks ago
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@Lyc360 Hell is no more a "doctrine" of the Catholic Church than Pasadena is a "doctrine" of Google Maps.
CosmasNDamian 2 weeks ago
@Lyc360 Catholic mystics and saints have seen hell, gone there, and a few have even suffered its torments while yet living, in order to atone for the sins of others (as Christ did), and help save them from hell. They have seen that many souls in hell didn't believe in it while on earth. We are judged on our works. Knowledge plays an important part, but it is chiefly our works which see us go to heaven or hell.
sharbel23 1 week ago
@sharbel23 What is the verifiable evidence supporting your belief that mystics and saints went to hell and back? Millions of Muslims believe that Muhammad ascended to heaven on the steed Buraq surrounded by angels, spoke to God and returned to Earth with instructions to the faithful on how often to pray each day. Is your evidence any better than the evidence supporting their belief? Or can we conclude there is no credible evidence for either preposterous belief?
Lyc360 1 week ago
@Lyc360
If you read the lives of Catholic saints you will see that God Himself bears witness to their enjoying a close union with him, by way of miracles, prophecies, and mystical gifts like the stigmata. These things are not found in any other religion. Padre Pio, who my father met, had the stigmata for over 50 yrs. He would die at 3pm on good friday, and doctors would examine him, observing that all life signs stopped. This happened each year.
sharbel23 1 week ago
@sharbel23 Books endorsed by the Catholic Church about Catholic saints is no place to obtain unbiased information about people declared to be saints by the Catholic Church. Online Wikipedia reveals the controversy concerning Padre Pio’s claim of experiencing stigmata. There is a YouTube video entiltled How to make a stigmata by yourself. It was made by a psychologist and chemist from the University of Pavia 35km from Milan, Italy.
Lyc360 1 week ago
@Lyc360
This same holy friar cured a man of blindness after his eyes were damaged in an accident(even destroyed), and a girl born with a congenital eye defect. There are medical records for their conditions prior to their cure. You can read about him in many places. Miracles are a testimony of God, so when the person related going to hell, you believe them because of the clear witness of miracles. Likewise with prophecies which came true. Islam has not one saint or miracle or prophecy
sharbel23 1 week ago
@sharbel23 “There are medical records for their conditions prior to their cure”. What records? Who prepared them? What responsible medical journal reviewed the reports to ascertain credibility? Why is there not a single record of a missing limb miraculously restored? Why have there never been miraculous cures for cleft paletes or people born missing half their brain? Why does god discriminate against these people when he performs curative miracles?
Lyc360 1 week ago
You need subtitles to reach more people!!!
basural00 1 month ago
Do you "reasonably hope" that all non-Christians will have a deathbed conversion, or is the hope that God will allow non-Christians into Heaven? Good video by the way. The subject of Hell seems to be taboo with so many Christians.
baraqiyal 1 month ago
If hell existed - how could you be happy in heaven knowing a family member/dear friend was in hell. Heaven and hell contradict each other - the logical answer is neither exists. Thats just my opinion though. :D
KazgarothUsher 1 month ago
@KazgarothUsher --your opinion sucks.
Archangel866 1 month ago
@Archangel866 As does your manners based upon that comment.
KazgarothUsher 1 month ago
@Archangel866 Your comment directed to KazgarothUsher reflects your capacity for thoughtful dialogue. You have no choice but to attack since you are incapable of providing a reasoned response.
Apacalola 1 month ago
I reasonably hope that we will stop arguing about these iron age fairy tales and grow out of this.
AmOverwatch 1 month ago
What of the resurrection? If I'm not mistaken RCC teaches that everybody eventually get resurrected into physical bodies. Does that apply to the damned? If so, will hell be a physical place at that time?
quantumystery 2 months ago
I was taught that hell is knowing, after you die, about the party in heaven, and that you missed out on it. If hell is a door locked from the inside, then can people in hell choose to join God's party whenever they wish? If all that is true, someone would have to be truly perverse to stay in hell, and I doubt that anyone would choose that.
But this all just seems absurd to me. I don't think I'll be making any choices after I'm dead. Choice is time-bound, and heaven is supposedly eternal.
jontv 2 months ago
@jontv If you in fact leave, you weren't in Hell, you were in Purgatory. And is it really possible that you have never met a severely depressed, dysfunctional, or addicted person who decides to stay in a condition that is in fact detrimental to him? It happens all over the world, every day.
wordonfirevideo 2 months ago
@wordonfirevideo - No, I think it makes a good amount of sense on Earth. The question is why in the hell would I assume that it works the same way after death?
Your answer doesn't clarify much. Are you saying that when you die, you go to Purgatory if you will eventually see the light, and Hell if you won't? Did CS Lewis misspeak, or was he using "Hell" metaphorically, for the earthly afflictions you referenced?
See, this is like most mythology: it's useful until you try to take it literally.
jontv 2 months ago
@jontv Well, why wouldn't it work after death? I mean, if we're still in possession of intellect, will, and freedom, why couldn't those continue to be used properly or abused? And your problem is coming precisely from your tendency to literalize these symbols. In point of fact, God doesn't "send" anyone to these "places." They are symbols of states of being produced by our reaction to the divine love.
wordonfirevideo 2 months ago
@wordonfirevideo - I see no reason to believe that we would still be in possession of those things. All of them, as well as emotions, choices, will, knowledge, and ignorance are all functions of time and space. I suppose you could say "all things are possible in God", but if you can't suggest a more coherent vision for how/when/where this would be happening, then I don't see how I can believe it will. It works as a metaphor but metaphors aren't literally real. You want to have it both ways.
jontv 1 month ago
@wordonfirevideo - As for God's role in this, from what you've said, I must infer that hell and purgatory are the same state, and you just assign one word or the other depending on the ultimate outcome. Why two different words, then? Is that really Catholic teaching, or are you just trying to make sense of a tradition that never entirely made sense?
jontv 1 month ago
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My understanding on Catholic teaching always was that the Church has never declared that a specific person is in hell, but it does teach that there are people there. Am I wrong here?
jacobhghs43 2 months ago
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jacobhghs43 2 months ago
Substituting "reasonably believe" for "know" is intellectual weaseling. It unasks the question, depends upon a positive tautology, and thus can be used to prove or defend anything "nice". Don't deceptively set this side by side with Origen and Augustine and Aquinas, to try to make such soft nonsense appear rigorous and dependable.
333666666 2 months ago
@333666666 I didn't say "reasonably believe;" I said "reasonably hope."
wordonfirevideo 2 months ago
Fr. Barron: You are an extremely intelligent person, and an inspiration for the modern Catholic. Keep doing what you are doing. God Bless
mbrown750 2 months ago
Interestingly Matthew 7:13 indicates that many have gone to hell (destruction). "...For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it". Further the Council of Florence describes hell as a "punishment" for those who die in mortal or original sin alone. Again the idea that people refuse to leave hell is not Biblical. In fact Luke 16:24 indicates that one can be refused an exit, even when one considers the salvation of others (Luke 16:26-28).
zearro53 2 months ago
The modern notion that people put themselves in hell strikes me as being absurd if one believes in free will. That with full knowledge of the best position that someone should choose the worst seems the act of a mad man and not a sane man, Further the notion seems to have little biblical support. Matt13:50, Rev 14:10, Rev 20:15 which show God throwing sinners into hell
zearro53 2 months ago
@zearro53 Depressed and addicted people do irrational things all the time, choosing precisely what will hurt them.
wordonfirevideo 2 months ago
@wordonfirevideo. I agree that these two categories do irrational things SOME of the time. I disagree that depressed and addicted people choose their behaviour WITH FREE WILL. Addicted people often talk of feeling compelled and depressed people do not know how to break out of the depression.That they have awareness of the behaviour they "choose" does not mean that they choose from free will. Without the compulsion they would choose otherwise. P.S.You have not addressed the biblical quotes.
zearro53 2 months ago
@zearro53 You're right: sin is a warping of the will, a compromising of true freedom. It's a lot like an addiction.
wordonfirevideo 2 months ago
@wordonfirevideo . I would say that "sin" is more based on ignorance and habitual sin is more like addiction. In either case there is no real free will and as such hell cannot be justified since temptation is like having a gun put to one's head or being deceived. - Bearing in mind that the scripture sources I gave show that God throws people into hell. Take away the appetites and give people full free will then they must choose the better option.
zearro53 2 months ago
About Christopher Hitchins: "From the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. A good person brings forth good out of a store of goodness, but an evil person brings forth evil out of a store of evil". -Jesus of Nazareth
TheGhostFromPlanetX 2 months ago
About Christopher Hitchins: "I tell you, on the day of judgement people will render an account for every careless word they speak. By your words you will be aquitted, and by your words you will be condemned".
TheGhostFromPlanetX 2 months ago
father why do we pray to mary she is only human.
StartContaversy1 2 months ago
@StartContaversy1 . One of the definitions of pray is "to ask."--to entreat or implore. In Protestant theology, the word has mistakenly always taken on the connotation to worship, but that is not what Catholics do in praying to the saints.
If you were sick or in need and you asked me to pray for you, that would not be offensive to God, and that would certainly not take away from the one mediatorship of Jesus.
BobbyR6314 2 months ago
@BobbyR6314 very true. here is another question sir. this point was presented by my muslim friend and it is a very good point. is jesus god? if so then why in matthew he sad father father why hast thou forsaken me, why would he say that to himself? i understand he was supposed to be crucified. I am a catholic but i could not retort. Hopefully you can provide some good point for this.
StartContaversy1 2 months ago
@StartContaversy1 Muslims do not believe in a triune God. They dont believe that God is a Trinity; therefore your friend would naturally have been confused when He refers to that passage when Jesus calls to His Father -and ours. Jesus spoke a quotation from Psalm 22, the words of the suffering servant. He may have been reacting, in his humanity ( Jesus was God and man) , to the separation between himself and the Father which resulted from his having taken the sin of the world upon himself.
BobbyR6314 2 months ago
@BobbyR6314 yeah i told him he was still man but he can't seem to understand that. i don't want to remove his faith but i want him to understand our point of view. he also says if he was god why was he born? why didn't he just step into the world? i said i was unsure but maybe its god's way of coming into our world.
please correct me if i'm wrong good sir.
StartContaversy1 1 month ago
This homily on St. Leonard of Port Maurice, whose homily "On the Fewness of Catholics Who are Saved," is more sound than von Balthasar and the new wave of sentimental semi-universalist thinking in the Catholic Church. I don't think von Balthasar's ideas are helping people take penance seriously, and creates, in the masses of Catholics, a notion that salvation is easy. Though they might deny this outright, I believe in practice they believe this.
Youtube: watch?v=qkxCzWrDQ9c
RomeFell 2 months ago 3
@RomeFell But honestly, man, does that strike you as "good news?" The message of Jesus is a message of euangelion (glad tidings). The confident proclamation that only a tiny handful of people will be saved just strikes me as anti-evangelical.
wordonfirevideo 2 months ago
@wordonfirevideo Thank you for your response. I have a great deal of respect for what you're doing, and often direct people who seek answers to our faith to your videos.
I don't believe St. Leonard meant that there will be a "tiny handful" of saved people. If one reads his homily, it appears that he is speaking of mankind throughout the ages seems to be stiff-necked, and is not inclined to take the straight and narrow road. The good news is that there is a path for our salvation, not a number.
RomeFell 2 months ago 2
@RomeFell Well, I can utterly subscribe to that! What I've defended from the beginning is the proposition that we can reasonably hope (hope, please, not know) that all people will be saved. I feel obliged to say this, precisely because the church prays for it, and lex orandi lex credendi. What I don't appreciate is the insinuation that I am thereby advocating some wimpy, anything-goes spirituality. I'm teaching what the church teaches. And yes, we shouldn't play the numbers game!
wordonfirevideo 2 months ago
@wordonfirevideo Of course you're not advocating an anything goes spirituality. Not you, Fr. But between von Balthasar and St. Leonard, I think St. Leonard takes better account of damnation. The effects of semi-universalism on the masses, I believe, is sentimentalism and easy salvation--not your notion of hoping for the salvation of all men. It is difficult to take von Balthasar seriously in light of Christ's teaching on hell and the fact that a third of the angels, who saw God, still rebelled.
RomeFell 2 months ago 10
@RomeFell You're right on target regarding the teaching I, and all other Catholics of my generation, received in Catholic schools taught by Catholic clergy. Hell, in accordance with that teaching, is filled with people who physically suffer excruciating pain from fire forever. That's the "good news" we received. We were taught that Purgatory was as excruciatingly painful except the suffering was not eternal. And just about everyone goes to Purgatory!
Apacalola 2 months ago
There is no hell in the Torah, and the 'concept' of 'eternal judgment' is false. The correct useage of the word was it was plural, so it was Eternals' Judgement, referring to how all JUDGMENT belongs to the ETERNAL ONE or god.
The omnipotent GOD controls both sides of the board, I create Light and I create Dark, I the LORD do all things. So that's why Immanuel said DO NOT JUDGE, since the game is completely controlled by god. IT IS ALL GoOD.
sollogs 2 months ago
@sollogs That is a very dangerous belief. I do not believe that God controls everything that happens, for that would imply he is, in fact, quite cruel. No, rather I believe He, in his wisdom, has chosen to let us decide and act entirely on our own accord.
w33geeable 2 months ago
Hell in a small way is like the experiences of those people who have been stranded in different situations. If you read their accounts, it gives an insight into the human mind and all the physical and spiritual struggles. The big difference for those who are in Hell is, they will never be rescued or loved and they will continue to live in a state of misery, longing, guilt and all negativity of the mind with no end in sight.
1tontomato 2 months ago
I think Jesus is very clear about a crowed hell when He states "Enter by the narrow gate: for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few." There doesn't seem to be much room for alternative interpretations. And the context only supports the very strong reality that most men will most likely willingly choice hell over heaven.
Thestuffonmainstreet 2 months ago
It's no accident that Origen hasn't been canonized.
As for Sts. Augustine & Aquinas, it's not about whether their words on hell were dark. It's about whether they were true. I'll take the side of these two Saints and greatest minds of the Church over Origen and, especially, the modernist infected von Balthasar.
And are we to forget that Jesus Himself said that the gate to destruction is wide and many enter it? See Matthew 7.
And search here for this:
How many are saved? realcatholictv
Jitpring 3 months ago
"Woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."
If it would have been better for Judas to have never been born, it's safe to say he's not in heaven, and nor will he ever be. Therefore all cannot be saved. What will our Lord have to say to those of us who spent our days arguing over whether it's theoretically possible that everyone is saved while people are dropping into hell all around us?
jpwaldburger 3 months ago
St. Isaac the Syrian writes:" Sin, hell and death do not exist at all with God, for they are effects, not substances. Sin is the fruit of free will. There was a time when sin did not exist, and there will be a time when it will not exist. Hell is the fruit of sin. At some point in time it had a beginning, but its end is not known. Death, however, is a dispensation of the wisdom of the Creator. It will rule only a short time over nature; then it will be totally abolished.
wyss20 3 months ago
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wyss20 3 months ago
N. Berdiayev writes: "Humanity has entered a stage when a frightening and threatening element of religion with cruel penalties contributes only to the success of militant atheism. if formerly the idea of hell retained people in the Church, it now only pushes them away as a sadistic idea, and prevents them from to the Church. A juridical religion is no longer suitable for man; man is too much tormented by the world..."
God is Alive, A Family Catechesis, London 1988
wyss20 3 months ago
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@wyss20 Thus, according to St. Isaac hell will be destroyed. Yet the end of Gehenna is something we can not understand, and St. Isaac's opinions go beyond the limits of the dogmatic teaching of the Orthodox Church. It believes it would be a heresy to insist on the necessity of salvation of all, but it is not a heresy to believe in the possibility of the salvation of all.
wyss20 3 months ago
Many saints have been allowed by God to see Hell. It exists. It's not just a theological possibility.
Luvmygrndhg 3 months ago
I'll say this, Apacalola, and then leave this discussion - I pray you are correct, and I'm wrong. My reading of Scripture and Tradition leads me to believe that the modern(ist) belief in near-universal, salvation, is horribly, disastrously erroneous. I fear many souls are being led down the primrose path. So I pray you are correct, and I'm wrong, and that I hold an antiquated vision of the Faith. If so, pray for my conversion .I pray for God's Grace to fill my soul with His Truth, always.
hckyplyr90 3 months ago
You're not addressing my points, you're seizing on a small aspect of what I said and distorting it uncharitably. My point is that Scripture and Tradition both say hell is a real destination for many, perhaps even most people. That's not fear, it's the Truth Christ has revealed through His Church. That you don't like this Truth doesn't make it any less real. Present your evidence from Scripture and Tradition that this Truth is not so, and I'll listen. No modernist exegets, please.
hckyplyr90 3 months ago
@hckyplyr90 Nice point. I've gotten to the point that I've stopped taking most people seriously when they attack the Church by bringing up the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Reformation, or Galileo, unless they provide a reliable reference (this doesn't include books by professors at obscure protestant universities whose publications are based on self-referential citations). There is a frustratingly large amount of false information reported and ignorance on these subjects.
plafratt 3 months ago
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" comes form Ecclesiasticus, written hundreds of years before the Church came intoexistence. This belief was universal to Christendom for most of its history, until the disaster of proto-modernism. Holy fear is nothing to be ashamed of, nor is it abusive - it is, according to God, through the Holy Spirit, the first stage to wisdom. Preferably, we do not remain at that stage, but if we do, we may at least have that fear to guide us to salvation.
hckyplyr90 3 months ago
@hckyplyr90 Well you were born several centuries too late. You would have been right at home during the six hundred year long Catholic Inquisition when fear was the principle motivator to assure people didn't think for themselves but expressed their "belief" in all the doctrines the Catholic Church required them to believe.
Apacalola 3 months ago
Continuing - historically, the Church has said the former. It is better to err on the side of caution, as it were. Your belief could be a large factor in the indifferentism, collapsing Mass attendance, and numerous other problems facing the Church today. Many think - why bother if we all go to Heaven? It is beautiful to serve God out of love, but, sadly, our nature makes it perhaps necessary that many serve more out of fear. That fear, is, after all, the beginning of wisdom.
hckyplyr90 3 months ago
@hckyplyr90 Fear, guilt and shame were the principal motivators utilized by the Catholic Church to indoctrinate credulous children. It was abject psychological child abuse. Fear is an effective means to suppress rational thinking.
Apacalola 3 months ago