Thanks for the interesting video, AMTatte, however, I don't think the labyrinth is sinful because the pagan origins of it have been changed to Christian meanings. This is called inculturation and is an important way in which the Gospel is brought to non-Christians. Nevertheless, there are much more profound ways of meditating on the Gospel than walking the labyrinth. Praying the Rosary, or Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament are a sure path to Jesus. The labyrinth is too much about the self.
Dear friend, I have not misunderstood the Bible. Look at the history of evangelization. Bringing the Gospel to non-Christians requires a study of their culture, language, customs, and religious beliefs. Missionaries fail when they neglect this task. Mary herself came to the Aztecs through Saint Juan Diego, when the Spanish colonizers were treating the native people so atrociously. As a result, 8 million Aztecs were baptised in 7 yrs and willingly ended their human sacrifices.
@AMTattersall Nevertheless, I agree with you that the labyrinth has pagan origins. To introduce it as a means of ecumenism, seems rather empty, as it is an avoidance of dialogue i.e. sola scriptura vs Apostolic Tradition, etc. When I converted to the Catholic faith from a Protestant church, I learned about the labyrinth at my parish and I walked it. Now, I look back on it as a practice that diverted me from deeper devotions such as Scripture reading, praying the rosary, Adoration. God bless
When the Bible refers to Israel committing sexual immorality, adultery, fornication, prostitution etc, it is God speaking to His wife Israel for being unfaithful with things of other gods and religions.
Mystery Babylon is the church version of this which is why she is called the mother of prostitutes, whore etc.
And for her judgement, have a good read of Revelation 18.
We need to assess this with God's word the Bible and not with what feels good to us.
@AMTattersall Yes, I agree with you that we need sound and Biblical judgment that is not based on emotion. Apostolic tradition, Scripture and Magisterium are the pillars of Christian faith.
I do appreciate your warning about the labyrinth, as it is doing harm to both the Protestant and Catholic Church. Christians now care less and less about leading moral lives. Contraception, abortion, etc. is normal now. Distractions like the labyrinth (even with Christian symbolism) lead us astray.
Re praying the Rosary, are you keeping the commandments of Jesus??
Jesus commanded us in Matthew 6 verses 7-8
"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him."
What other religions count their prayers using rosary beads?? It is a practise that belongs to other gods.
We pray to place ourselves before God and to dispose ourselves to His graces. We are urged to pray regularly and frequently. The power of our prayers does not come from how we feel during prayer, but on the grace of God given through our steadfast discipline (1 Cor. 15:58; cf. Catechism, 2725). A regular recitation of the Rosary helps us develop steadfastness in prayer in ways that spontaneous and extemporaneous prayer cannot.
@AMTattersall As a Gospel prayer, centered on the mystery of the redemptive Incarnation, the Rosary is a prayer with a clearly Christological orientation. Its most characteristic element, in fact, the litany-like succession of Hail Mary’s, becomes in itself an unceasing praise of Christ, who is the ultimate object both of the angel’s announcement and of the greeting of the mother of John the Baptist: “Blessed is the fruit of your womb” (Lk. 1:42).
@AMTattersall Jesus is preaching a radically new relationship with God in Matthew 6:7. He says that the poor in spirit will inherit the kingdom of heaven and that enemies are not to be hated, but loved. What kind of god would make such demands? Certainly not a god like the gods of Gentiles. This God is Our Heavenly Father. We pray to Him in a way radically different from the manner in which Gentiles prayed to their gods. Hence, “do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; ....”.
@AMTattersall Jesus repeats the same prayer in the garden of Gethsemane three times (Mt. 26:39, 42, 44); He responded favorably to the repeated prayers of the blind men (Mt. 20:29-33); and the angels in heaven repeat unceasingly, “Holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come” (Rev. 4:8). In Psalm 136, the response, “for His steadfast love endures forever” or, in another translation, “His mercy endures forever,” is repeated 26 times.
@AMTattersall Christ warned His faithful to avoid praying as the pagans do. However, He did not warn against repetition itself. Otherwise, Jesus the God-man inexplicably contradicts Himself in Matthew 6:8-14 when He teaches His disciples to pray the Our Father. His followers would be guilty of repetitious prayer the moment they said this prayer for the second time. Christ’s emphasis was on “vain” and “empty” repetitious prayer. This conclusion is affirmed elsewhere in Scripture.
@AMTattersall Also, the words of Jesus emphasize that prayer to non-existent gods is necessarily vain and useless. Aside from being violations of the First Commandment, such prayers fall on deaf ears. One example is the repetitive prayer of the worshippers of Baal in 1 Kings 18:26-29. They took the bull given them, prepared it, and called on the name of Baal from morning until noon, saying “O Baal, answer us!”
@AMTattersall .. thanks for these vidios , very interesting and they helped me a lot , because I had a friend who walked the labyrinth and that person was dark in spirit. but as to this comment, there are no other Gods, that is just satan convincing people, these are just myths , False Idols. a bit like micky mouse, and as for rosery , the prayer must be performed 5 times a day without the use of the rosery , but is nothing wrong with invoking God by calling out to him over and over, peace
@AMTattersall THis is why I walked away from Catholicism. Repetitive prayer...Toooo much emphasis on Mary...and prayer to the dead(seance actually) praying to the dead.THere's more but those 2 will do for now.
"Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars."
It appears that the sign in heaven (the sky) is the star constellation called Virgo and there is a precise time when the moon appears under her feet which is believed to signify the birth of Jesus in 3 BC.
Hebrews 3:3 - Jesus is worthy of "more" glory and honor than Moses. This does not mean that the saints are worthy of no glory and honor. Instead, it proves that saintly people are worthy of glory and honor out of God's goodness.
Heb. 6:12 – the author teaches us to be imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Heb. 13:7 - we must imitate the faith of our faithful leaders. We ask for their intercession and venerate them for their holiness.
Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)
James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.
@AMTattersall 1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.
1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).
@AMTattersall 1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?
In the monarchy of King David, as well as in other ancient kingdoms of the Near East, the mother of the ruling king held an important office in the royal court and played a key part in the process of dynastic succession. In fact, the king’s mother ruled as queen, not his wife.
@AMTattersall Our first parents had chosen the way of sin as a couple; a new pair, the Son of God with his Mother's co-operation, would re-establish the human race in its original dignity.
Mary, the New Eve, thus becomes a perfect icon of the Church. In the divine plan, at the foot of the Cross, she represents redeemed humanity which, in need of salvation, is enabled to make a contribution to the unfolding of the saving work.
@AMTattersall On two solemn occasions, that is, at Cana and beneath the Cross, Jesus addresses as "Woman" (cf. Jn 2, 4; 19, 26). Mary is associated as a woman in the work of salvation. Having created man "male and female" (cf. Gn 1:27), the Lord also wants to place the New Eve beside the New Adam in the Redemption.
@AMTattersall Jesus' words acquire their most authentic meaning in the context of his saving mission. Spoken at the moment of the redemptive sacrifice, they draw their loftiest value precisely from this sublime circumstance.
In fact, attentive consideration of the text, confirmed by the interpretation of many Fathers and by common ecclesial opinion, presents us, in Jesus' twofold entrustment, with one of the most important events for understanding the Virgin's role in the economy of salvation.
Interpreted at times as no more than an expression of Jesus' filial piety towards his Mother whom he entrusts for the future to his beloved disciple, these words go far beyond the contingent need to solve a family problem.
@AMTattersall These particularly moving words are a "revelation scene": they reveal the deep sentiments of the dying Christ and contain a great wealth of meaning for Christian faith and spirituality. At the end of his earthly life, as he addressed his Mother and the disciple he loved, the crucified Messiah establishes a new relationship of love between Mary and Christians.
@AMTattersall These particularly moving words are a "revelation scene": they reveal the deep sentiments of the dying Christ and contain a great wealth of meaning for Christian faith and spirituality. At the end of his earthly life, as he addressed his Mother and the disciple he loved, the crucified Messiah establishes a new relationship of love between Mary and Christians.
The great pre-eminence of the king’s mother may seem odd from our modern Western perspective, in which we think of a queen as being the wife of a king. However, recall that most ancient Near-Eastern kings practiced polygamy.
King Solomon had seven hundred wives (1 Kgs. 11:3)—imagine the chaos in the royal court if all seven hundred were awarded the queenship! But since each king had only one mother, one can see the practical wisdom in bestowing the queenship upon her.
A few Old Testament prophecies incorporate the queen mother tradition when telling of the future Messiah. One example is Isaiah 7:14, which originated during a time of dynastic crisis in Judah when Syria and Israel were threatening Jerusalem and plotting to overthrow King Ahaz.
God offers Ahaz a sign that the kingdom will continue: "Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also? Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Emmanuel" (Isa. 7:13–14).
On one level, this passage points to the next king (Hezekiah) as a pledge that the Davidic dynasty will continue despite the threats of invading armies. At the same time, the royal son who is to be named "Emmanuel" points to the future messianic king (cf., Isa. 9:6–7, 11:1–2). This is why the New Testament says Jesus fulfills this prophecy from Isaiah (Matt. 1:23).
For our purposes we should note how this prophecy links the mother to her royal son. Since the oracle is addressed specifically to the Davidic household and concerns the continuation of the dynasty, the young woman bearing forth the royal son would be understood as a queen mother.
This has implications for our understanding of Mary. Since the mother of the king always ruled as queen mother, we should expect to find the mother of the messianic king playing the role of the true queen mother in the everlasting Kingdom of God.
With this Old Testament background, we can now more clearly see how the New Testament portrays Mary in light of the queen mother tradition.
The Gospel of Matthew has often been called the "Gospel of the Kingdom." Matthew emphasizes that Jesus is "the Son of David," who is the true King of the Jews establishing the "Kingdom of Heaven." With all this kingly imagery, it should not be surprising to find queen mother themes as well.
Right away, Matthew shows explicitly how the infant Jesus is the "Emmanuel" child as prophesied in Isaiah 7:14 (Matt. 1:23). As we saw above, this prophecy links the royal messianic child with his queen mother. Further, Matthew singles out the intimate relationship between the mother and her royal son by using the phrase "the child and his mother" five times in the first two chapters, recalling the close association between queen mother and royal son as described in the Books of Kings.
Just as the queen mother was constantly mentioned alongside the Judean kings in 1 and 2 Kings, so Mary is frequently mentioned alongside her royal son, Jesus, in Matthew’s infancy narrative (Matt. 1:18; 2:11, 13, 14, 20, 21).
We find Mary portrayed against the background of Davidic kingdom motifs in Luke’s Gospel as well, especially in his accounts of the Annunciation and Visitation. First, the angel Gabriel is said to appear to a virgin betrothed to a man "of the house of David" (1:27).
Then the angel tells Mary, "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there will be no end" (Luke 1:31–33).
Hear the strong Davidic overtones describing Mary and her royal son: a woman from the house of David giving birth to a son who will be the new king whose reign will never end. With echoes from the queen mother tradition of the Davidic kingdom and the mother-son prophecy of Isaiah 7:14, we can conclude that Mary is being given the vocation of queen mother.
Mary’s royal office is made even more explicit in Luke’s account of the Visitation. Elizabeth greets Mary with the title "the mother of my Lord" (Luke 1:43). This title is charged with great queenly significance.
In the royal court language of the ancient NearEast, the title "Mother of my Lord" was used to address the queen mother of the reigning king (who himself was addressed as "my Lord"; cf., 2 Sam. 24:21). Thus with this title Elizabeth is recognizing the great dignity of Mary’s role as the royal mother of the king, Jesus.
Finally, Mary’s queenship can be seen in the great vision described in Revelation 12: "And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery" (Rev. 12:1–2). Who is this newborn child? He is described as the messianic king exercising his dominion.
In verse 5, the author of Revelation chose the messianic Psalm 2 to describe how this child will "rule all the nations with a rod of iron" (Rev. 12:5, Ps. 2:9). This royal son is taken up to heaven to sit on a throne (Rev. 12:5), and he ushers in the kingdom of God by defeating the devil: "Now the kingdom of our God has come, for the accuser has been throne down" (12:10). Certainly, this newborn child is the royal Messiah, King Jesus.
In this light it is clear who this woman is who gave birth to the messiah: It is Mary. Some people have interpreted this woman in Revelation 12 as merely a symbol either for the Old Testament people of Israel or for the New Testament Church and therefore have concluded that the woman cannot be an individual (i.e., Mary).
However, this "either-or" proposition is foreign to the biblical worldview, in which individuals often symbolically represent collective groups. For instance, Adam represented all humanity (Rom. 5:19), and Jacob stood for all of Israel (Ps. 44:4). Given this biblical notion called "corporate personality," the woman in Revelation 12 should be understood as both an individual (Mary) and a symbol for the people of God.
But for our purposes, once we see that this woman is Mary, the mother of Jesus, it is important to note how she is portrayed as queen in this passage. Her royal office is hinted at by the imagery of the sun, moon, and twelve stars, which recalls the Old Testament story of Joseph’s dream in which the sun, moon, and stars bow down before him, symbolizing his future authority (Gen. 37:9–11).
Her queenship is made even clearer by the crown of twelve stars on her head. Just like the queen mother in Jeremiah 13:18, here Mary is wearing a crown, symbolizing her royal office in the kingdom of heaven. In sum, Revelation 12 portrays Mary as the new queen mother in the Kingdom of God, sharing in her son’s rule over the universe.
The Old Testament queen mother tradition serves as an important background for understanding Mary’s royal office. Indeed, the New Testament portrays Mary as the queen mother par excellence. Thus, prayers, hymns, and art giving honor to Mary’s queenship are most fitting biblical responses for Christians. In honoring her as queen mother we do not take anything away from Christ’s glory, but rather we exalt him even more by recognizing the great work he has done in her and through her.
Understanding Mary as queen mother sheds light on her important intercessory role in the Christian life. Just like the queen mother of the Davidic kingdom, Mary serves as advocate for the people in the Kingdom of God today. Thus, we should approach our queen mother with confidence, knowing that she carries our petitions to her royal son and that he responds to her as Solomon did to Bathsheba: "I will never refuse you."
The King of Kings requires a Queen, and in Israel, it is the King's Mother who sits on the throne and exerts power as "The Great Lady" ("gebirah" or "gevirah," as this position is known in Hebrew). Just as Bethsabee (Bathsheba), the mother of King Solomon, acted as intercessor for the people of Israel, Our Lady acts as intercessor for us with the King of Kings:
Dear sacredcello, on what basis can you Biblically transfer the power of Bethsabee mother of King Soloimon to Mary mother, virgin woman who bore Jesus to be intercessor to Jesus, the King of Kings.
You have created the parallel, but where where does God or Jesus say this is to be done?
One biblical theme sheds light on these questions and serves as a key for unlocking the mystery of Mary’s queenship: the Old Testament tradition of the "queen mother" in the Davidic kingdom. Please see my posts above for a fuller answer to your question. May God bless you, too, AMTettersall
Then Bethsabee came to king Solomon, to speak to him for Adonias: and the king arose to meet her, and bowed to her, and sat down upon his throne: and a throne was set for the king's mother, and she sat on his right hand. And she said to him: I desire one small petition of thee, do not put me to confusion. And the king said to her: My mother, ask: for I must not turn away thy face.
Psalm 44, which prophesied Our Lord, speaks of the Queen at His right hand, one whose name will be remembered "throughout all generations": Unto the end, for them that shall be changed, for the sons of Core, for understanding. A canticle for the Beloved. My heart hath uttered a good word I speak my works to the king; My tongue is the pen of a scrivener that writeth swiftly
Thou art beautiful above the sons of men: grace is poured abroad in thy lips; therefore hath God blessed thee for ever. Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O thou most mighty. With thy comeliness and thy beauty set out, proceed prosperously, and reign. Because of truth and meekness and justice: and thy right hand shall conduct thee wonderfully.
Thy arrows are sharp: under thee shall people fall, into the hearts of the king's enemies. Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a sceptre of uprightness. Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Myrrh and stacte and cassia perfume thy garments, from the ivory houses: out of which the daughters of kings have delighted thee in thy glory.
The queen stood on thy right hand, in gilded clothing; surrounded with variety. Hearken, O daughter, and see, and incline thy ear: and forget thy people and thy father's house. And the king shall greatly desire thy beauty; for he is the Lord thy God, and him they shall adore. And the daughters of Tyre with gifts, yea, all the rich among the people, shall entreat thy countenance. All the glory of the king's daughter is within in golden borders, Clothed round about with varieties
Re the queen on the right hand of Jesus, as Jesus is King of Kings, the queen will be the Church after the "marriage supper of the Lamb" and as such Mary will be a member of the church, not a replacement for the Church
After her shall virgins be brought to the king: her neighbours shall be brought to thee. They shall be brought with gladness and rejoicing: they shall be brought into the temple of the king. Instead of thy fathers, sons are born to thee: thou shalt make them princes over all the earth. They shall remember thy name throughout all generations. Therefore shall people praise thee for ever; yea, for ever and ever.
Mary evokes this Psalm in her response to St. Gabriel's Annunciation to her:
Luke 1:46-48 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
St. John's Apocalypse reveals that he saw Our Lady crowned with stars, one for each of the twelve tribes and the twelve Apostles. St. John saw her as Queen in Heaven, the mother of the one who was to "rule all nations":
Consider Revelation 12:17 who talking about this woman "And the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
As we are not descendants of Mary (although there may be some exceptions) this woman can on be the Church once again.
And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. And there was seen another sign in heaven:
and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.
Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.
The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinct persons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity.
This was interesting until you misrepresented Mary's role in salvation history. She is the Mother of God, but she is not worshipped. She intercedes for the faithful and we ask her to pray for us. You might protest and say that her title "Mother of God" is not mentioned in the Scriptures. But, "The Holy Trinity" is not mentioned in Scripture either, but it is no less a truth of the Catholic faith. Thanks for exposing the labyrinth, but what you say about Mary is heresy.
Dearest sacredcello, I know that Mary is the earthly mother of Jesus but I am wondering how the title of "Mother of God" can be found in Bible scripture. To be mother of the Creator God, is a higher title than GOD himself, which is a position that Lucifer sought but failed.
I love Mary as I do all the prophets and saints of the Bible. I spent considerable time researching this and found some very relevant verses.
Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.
Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.
The Word became flesh (ie man) and made his dwelling among us.
Jesus referred to himself as "The Son of Man" meaning exactly that. He was saying that he is born of man via Mary and as such Mary is not devine (ie a god or deity) or he could not have been a "Son of Man".
He also had to be born of the line of Abraham and David, so Mary could not have been devine but chosen.
Jesus left his human form behind when he received his new resurrected body.
You are correct that Mary is not "divine." However, none of your above statement refutes her title as Mother of God. Your denial of her motherhood is illogical and incorrect.
1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul's practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.
Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.
Well, I just look on this as entertainment. I don't think the sources are well indicated, but as opinion, it is what it is. Labyrinths are fun and I enjoy seeing them here in Europe. I have a lot of kooky ideas about minotaurs and stuff. So I'm no one to criticize. Astrological signs are typical here in old churches. They were to help people understand months and seasons, the passing of time. Chartres was built out of jealousy over Saint-Denis, so go figure.
@AMTattersall No one seems to know what my faith is! I just did some cool vids in France of a labyrinth at Montal and hope to have them posted soon. I have two channels here and also do Dailymotion. A lot of the labyrinths remind me of the human brain and I think it may be a message to just use our brains and think.
@AMTattersall You clearly have superior knowledge of the Bible, I've never read it cover to cover, but I do believe that people interpret it in different ways. But I think you'll find that in ancient Greece that Zeus was the King of Heaven.
An abomination to you it may be but to all those people he was the real God and Judaism was wrong. I'm not saying that's right but I think it's a little unfair to completely discredit one ancient belief because Hitler worshiped Zeus in the last century.
Yes you are correct that people believed in their god including those who worshipped Zeus.
The Book of Revelation 2:13 speaks of human sacrifice at the Altar of Zeus in Pergamon and the human sacrifices in Luke 13:1 were committed by Pilate who was probably a worshipper of Jupiter (Zeus).
However, there can only be one Creator.
Only one god can be the True GOD.
Be sure to find the right one because the consequence of being wrong is eternal separation from GOD and Heaven.
Okay half of this was really interesting until you started referring to Zeus as 'Satan' because of some really vague link. Also I'm not entirely sure that you can decide what can or can't be part of a church, or to accuse people of paganism for worshiping Mary as you would a saint. Why can't Mary be considered alongside some of the saints? You sir seem like a sexist arsehole. (The Labyrinth's history was cool to know though).
Dear alittlebitmuddled, I pray that God will give you clear thinking and truth.
I have to censor your comment because of the swearing. In regards to my deciding what can or cant be part of a church, I am only following God's Word the Bible as to how these things are judged.
Yes Mary is a saint, as are ALL true Christians. To be a saint is a choice that we make.
God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is who I pray to. I love Mary but do not pray to her as a god, but God.
Further on the Zeus issue, have a read of the book of 2 Maccabbees. This is the prophecy of Daniel 8.
The Altar of Zeus set up in the Jerusalem Temple is the Abomination of Desolation prophecied. Jesus also spoke about this in the gospels. The Roman god Jupiter is Zeus. Suggest that you watch "The Rape of Europe" by David Hathaway.
Note also that Adolf Hitler worshipped at the Altar of Zeus - therefore worshipped Zeus.
People need to wake up to what they are playing with
Thank you for revealing the truth to those who love the truth and not thier feelings, intellect, and institutions. Some will not hear, some will. Some cannot even see the enemy for what he is because they will not obey that which they do know. Therefore, they are pulled into more seemingly innocent - even appearing to be helpful - practices. But they are not of God and lead to even more deception.
-We use tha words 'Prayer Labyrinth' as a title, nothing else...if it did/does cause a problem using that title, we could just as easily call it a Prayer Walk...it's the same thing, it just doesn't have the word Labyrinth in it...in my experience of prayer labyrinths, there isn't actual anything labyrinth about it, the reason why we used that title is because you make a journey/walk through the labyrinth
A recommended verse to meditate on as you walk the labyrinth is Revelation 22:15 - "But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolators, and WHOEVER LOVES AND PRACTICES A LIE."
Please use God's Word the Bible and historical evidence to determine whether or not the labyrinth that you love and practice is a lie.
This is interesting...my only couple of points would be
-it pulls out anything and everything, however small, that could be used against 'Labyrinths' being used in the Church...many of the links made are very tedius, and could quite easily be countered by saying the opposite...I haven't watched the third part yet, but so far there is nothing on the other side of the argument, which does make it difficult to follow a very one sided, almost desperate sounding, argument
Why can we never learn- Scripture and thus Gods grace is sufficient for us so why do we hanker after the things of the world and keep trying to make them acceptable to God- we should learn the lesson of doing than in Scripture. If its not in the bible then dont do it- simple- just follow the Lord as He asked doing only those things He asked. The apostate and emergent church is leading people away from truth and into paganism
"If it's not in the Bible then don't do it". This is a fair point, but I would liek to question it...there are a lot of thnigs we do today that are not in the Bible. Watching TV (I know this in an argument in itself), driving, going on holiday, going to the theatre...these aren't in the Bible, does that mean we shouldn't do them?
"If it's not in the Bible then don't do it". This is a fair point, but I would liek to question it...there are a lot of thnigs we do today that are not in the Bible. Watching TV (I know this in an argument in itself), driving, going on holiday, going to the theatre...these aren't in the Bible, does that mean we shouldn't do them?
Steering away from the 'pleasure' things in life, what about holiday clubs, games with kids, going into schools, teaching through drama, serving WITH young people, sports ministries and various other ministry activities we do today...none of these are in the Bible, so should we be not doing them?
In terms of the use of prayer 'devices', Jesus asked us to pray daily, and, yes, he asked us to pray in a specific way, but unless someone prays the exact words "Our father who art in heaven..." every time they pray, we are not doing exactly what Jesus asked us to do...generally, we interpret that as 'when we pray we should give glory to God, say thankyou, say sorry and ask'...
We use prayer devices as a way to focus our attention...they are not what Jesus asked us to do, but if they help us to focus when praying are they not still a good thing?
@ertricon As I said above and you say yourself- Jesus did not ask is to use them becaue they are PAGAN in origin. You have the Holt Spirit who the Bible says intercedes for us in prayer. Why would you use something God has said is an abomination- we are to abstain from all practices- Paul says it si a shame to mention what they do- can I ask you why would you defend something which is not of God. If it helps you pray then I ask which God are you praying to that you need this ritual?
You're saying the idea of writing a prayer down on paper, or listening to reflective music, or being given a starting point of relevant verses is a pagan idea? That's all a Prayer Labyrinth is to me...there is actually nothing 'labyrinth'y about it!
I use Prayer 'Labyrinths' with young people, several of whom don't know how to pray, and it gives them a starting point. I never said anyone shoudl require them in order to pray...it's not a ritual...if it is, then that is wrong!
@ertricon I am saying that we have the Holy Spirit who is our helper in prayer- if a person truly calls on the Lord no matter how he speaks but in his heart he is humble then the Lord will hear him. I think the point I am making is that we dont need anything- therefore if we feel we are using "aids" to prayer- ask yourself why when the bible clearly states these are not necessary and are in fact to be avoided. Would you use runes or tarot to prompt prayer- hopefully not. Young people need faith.
I completely agree. However, when you're thinking about someone who has never prayed before, doesn;t know how to pray, is completely daunted by the idea of 'everyone close your eyes and put yoru hands together' (that is the perception a lot of young peopel have!), just telling them to rely on the Holy Spirit doesn't help them much...quite often you would have to go on to explaining the Holy Spirit...all I'm saying is that it CAN be used as a starting point.
@ertricon God loves us so much He continually warns us to stay away from the appearance of evil, not be mismated with unbelievers, dont do what the pagans do- etc etc. I dont NEED to use pagan tools but if I do then I pay the price of sin before my Lord. I dont know better than Him so obediance is most important. Music and nature are natural and Biblical gifts to encourage our prayer and praise. Labyrinths are not- the video explains why. Nothing wrong in learning we need to let things go.
You are getting hung up on the word 'Labyrinth'. Thats all the video talks about, the word...it doesnt actually talk about what a Prayer Labyrinth is...you've just said that music and nature are Biblical gifts to encourage our prayer and praise...that is exactly what a prayer labyrinth is...using music, pen and paper, recomended Bible verses etc to encourage our prayer!
@ertricon Sorry- I think you are missing the point-I have answered in full as to why I think these things arewrong- I leave you to work it out with the Lord -thank you for our conversation and God bless you
@ertricon The very best you can do for them is to pray with them- using a pagan practice does not justify it. They will learn to pray when they do it enough- either with or without you- the Spirit will guide them into faith if they are truly saved, As their responsible adult emphasis should be on relationship with Jesus Christ- prayer is a natural result Biblically assisted by the Spirit-perhaps they feel that way because they see ritual not relationship
Different people pray in different ways. Personally, I find it easiest to pray when I am out walking and listening to music, or when I can sit and do creative writing, writing my prayer through poetry. Both of those things could be used in a prayer labyrinth. Are they wrong? Am I turning to pagan ideas by doing them? A part of the purpsoe of prayer labyrinths are to try and help people find a way of praying that they feel comfortable with and easiest...
@ertricon I agree that we all pray in various aspects but the tools used must be godly- the nature of the labyrinth is of a pagan root- the Bible says always to look at the root- it may appear good or to work- There is a way that seems right to man but leads to death. Never judge something by its feeling or seeming good. That leads to lying signs and wonders, Our benchmark is always Scripture. Jesus would have been aware of labyrinths in his day but never used one or mentions them.
I am going to stress the fact that the word 'Labyrinth' is of pagan origin...like I keep saying, we can change the name! Prayer Labyrinths have nothing to do with actual labyrinths at all...apart from the name, there is nothing pagan about them!
This is interesting, but never seemed to address some other sides of the argument. I suppose, with all of this information one might be completely convinced that there's no way that a Christian could use it as a tool to direct their thoughts towards God. That seems to be the main point I have found on any Christian labyrinth web sites. The way it is used is in stark contrast to the ways used by satanists or druids. We all use a fork to eat. Some might eat their sacrificed humans with it tho
You say the answers are in the Bible and yet even you cannot find any book or verse that directly addresses labyrinths. I do believe that the answers are in the Bible, and yet I still maintain an open mind to allow the Holy Spirit to guide me as He has done all of my life. And so I'll do this, I will read my Bible and I will pray to find what God is telling me.
@Ardaielanti "The mystery of the labyrinth" starting at part 4/7 on YouTube may have some Old Testament references to the labyrinth that you are seeking.
You say the answers are in the Bible and yet even you cannot find any book or verse that directly addresses labyrinths. I do believe that the answers are in the Bible, and yet I still maintain an open mind to allow the Holy Spirit to guide me as He has done all of my life. And so I'll do this, I will read my Bible and I will pray to find what God is telling me.
@djsixtysix523 The Bible tells us to stay away from the appearance of evil and the practices which the pagans used so there is no reason to use it when the Bible clearly tells us we dont need it. The church today is very bad at leaving alone things we dont need and just doing what Jesus asks- its so much easier to obey that than get tied up in man made and sometimes dangerous forms of practices and then" Christianise " them
"If it's not in the Bible then don't do it". This is a fair point, but I would liek to question it...there are a lot of thnigs we do today that are not in the Bible. Watching TV (I know this in an argument in itself), driving, going on holiday, going to the theatre...these aren't in the Bible, does that mean we shouldn't do them?
@ertricon Now I think you are wandering into surrealism- The issue is not whether smoking is mentioned in the Bible- its that we are the temple of God and that smoking destroys our health and those around us. Similarly the Bible clearly tells us to stay away from pagan practices of which this was clearly one. Dress it up how you will- that kind of excusing will lead you and your young people into deception. Discernment is a valuable gift- not much of it about today in the church of apostasy.
What part of listening to reflective worship music, writing prayers on paper, drawing our thoughts on paper, looking at relevant Bible passages, praying for other countries etc is pagan and 'dangerous' to what God says is best for us?
The video doesn't actually talk about what a prayer labyrinth is...it just talks about the word labyrinth...we don't have to give it that name! The question I have is what part of a prayer labyrinth other than the name is page or dangerous?
@ertricon When we struggle with something in our faith we should press in with the Holy Spirit as our guide. We should remember Gods word is complete and holds the answers to all our questions, it staes clearly the risks of meddling with pagan things right from the start- some Christians think Harry Potter is ok- the Bible is very clear that it is not.We are continually warned against deception and in the OT God did not let them intermarry with pagans as they would have defiled and outbred them
@ertricon One thing God is is gracious- when He reveals something to us then we can move on. Thats what maturity is in Christ and that humbles us to keep seeking Him and learning more. When we learn to simply do what He asks then we become free indeed- no Alpha course, no Purpose driven, no man made methods- just Biblical obediance and humility- it is the only way to be truly free in Jesus Christ. He hears your prayer wherever and however you pray- He sees the heart.
We are becoming an increasingly visual and practical society...I know a lot of people who struggle with just sitting down and praying...they don't find it easy, they feel uncomfortable, they struggle to concentrate etc. Give them some sort of 'prayer activity' to do, such as drawing a picture, and they're in their prime. Why is that so wrong?
We get hung up on a 'Prayer Meeting' mentality of prayer...sitting down, eyes closed, no distractions, speaking to God...why must this be the only way of praying? When we say that people cannot pray in their own way because in the Bible Jesus commands us one way of doing it, we have two problems...1: It makes prayer impersonal! I pray through writing...that is personal to me! 2: We bring up one of the biggest 'weaknesses' with Christianity...people think it is irrelevant today!
8:12 - "Shouldn't Jesus be wearing the crown?" Good question. This cathedral is reminiscent of a Roman Catholic church where Jesus is always shown hanging from a cross. You pray to Mary. The Pope replaces God as the highest power. This is Christianity? I think not. More like a place of worship for the Pharisees and Priestcraft who had a hand in killing Christ long ago. Whoever deigned the cathedral broke at least one commandment: "Have no other Gods before me."
An idol of the Greek God Zeus was placed on the altar in the Holy Temple of Jerusalem. Believed to be "the Abomination that causes desolation" in the book of Daniel.
In Acts 14, Barnabas and Paul were mistaken to be the incarnate god Zeus (Roman god Jupiter) and Hermes and tore their clothes in response.
Yes Zeus is really Satan. Adolf Hitler worshipped at the Altar of Zeus and the Zeppelin Tribune where he held his speeches to his troops was modelled on the Seat of Satan.
What a great video. Boy there is so much to learn about this. Thanks for this info. Like a major dot to be connected. The only way to even find out what is wrong with this place you got to get a huge picture. How can we have been living in such complete blindness for so long? Is Zeus really Satan?
Thanks for the interesting video, AMTatte, however, I don't think the labyrinth is sinful because the pagan origins of it have been changed to Christian meanings. This is called inculturation and is an important way in which the Gospel is brought to non-Christians. Nevertheless, there are much more profound ways of meditating on the Gospel than walking the labyrinth. Praying the Rosary, or Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament are a sure path to Jesus. The labyrinth is too much about the self.
sacredcello 5 months ago
@sacredcello
Dear sacredcello,
It would appear that you have missed the entire Old Testament and understanding of the New.
The problem with the Israelites is that they continually turned to practises of other religions and their gods and this continues today.
We are warned that in the last days that people will turn to doctrines of demons and yes the labyrinth is clearly one of them.
How can it not be a sin to introduce a practice that is still used by the occult today?
AMTattersall 5 months ago
@AMTattersall
Dear friend, I have not misunderstood the Bible. Look at the history of evangelization. Bringing the Gospel to non-Christians requires a study of their culture, language, customs, and religious beliefs. Missionaries fail when they neglect this task. Mary herself came to the Aztecs through Saint Juan Diego, when the Spanish colonizers were treating the native people so atrociously. As a result, 8 million Aztecs were baptised in 7 yrs and willingly ended their human sacrifices.
sacredcello 5 months ago
@AMTattersall Nevertheless, I agree with you that the labyrinth has pagan origins. To introduce it as a means of ecumenism, seems rather empty, as it is an avoidance of dialogue i.e. sola scriptura vs Apostolic Tradition, etc. When I converted to the Catholic faith from a Protestant church, I learned about the labyrinth at my parish and I walked it. Now, I look back on it as a practice that diverted me from deeper devotions such as Scripture reading, praying the rosary, Adoration. God bless
sacredcello 5 months ago
@sacredcello
Mystery Babylon is the church incorporating things that God didn't give us that come from pagan Rome etc.
It is prophesied that the church would do this and it is doing it now.
The churches that seek things spiritual like this are the same ones that deny the gifts of the Holy Spirit such as speaking in tongues.
They are deceived into seeking other spirits through pagan labyrinths etc
For the labyrinth identified in the Bible watch "The Mystery of the Labyrinth" on YouTube.
AMTattersall 5 months ago
@sacredcello
When the Bible refers to Israel committing sexual immorality, adultery, fornication, prostitution etc, it is God speaking to His wife Israel for being unfaithful with things of other gods and religions.
Mystery Babylon is the church version of this which is why she is called the mother of prostitutes, whore etc.
And for her judgement, have a good read of Revelation 18.
We need to assess this with God's word the Bible and not with what feels good to us.
AMTattersall 5 months ago
@AMTattersall Yes, I agree with you that we need sound and Biblical judgment that is not based on emotion. Apostolic tradition, Scripture and Magisterium are the pillars of Christian faith.
I do appreciate your warning about the labyrinth, as it is doing harm to both the Protestant and Catholic Church. Christians now care less and less about leading moral lives. Contraception, abortion, etc. is normal now. Distractions like the labyrinth (even with Christian symbolism) lead us astray.
sacredcello 5 months ago
Comment removed
sacredcello 5 months ago
@sacredcello
Re praying the Rosary, are you keeping the commandments of Jesus??
Jesus commanded us in Matthew 6 verses 7-8
"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him."
What other religions count their prayers using rosary beads?? It is a practise that belongs to other gods.
God Bless
AMTattersall 5 months ago
@AMTattersall
We pray to place ourselves before God and to dispose ourselves to His graces. We are urged to pray regularly and frequently. The power of our prayers does not come from how we feel during prayer, but on the grace of God given through our steadfast discipline (1 Cor. 15:58; cf. Catechism, 2725). A regular recitation of the Rosary helps us develop steadfastness in prayer in ways that spontaneous and extemporaneous prayer cannot.
sacredcello 5 months ago
@AMTattersall As a Gospel prayer, centered on the mystery of the redemptive Incarnation, the Rosary is a prayer with a clearly Christological orientation. Its most characteristic element, in fact, the litany-like succession of Hail Mary’s, becomes in itself an unceasing praise of Christ, who is the ultimate object both of the angel’s announcement and of the greeting of the mother of John the Baptist: “Blessed is the fruit of your womb” (Lk. 1:42).
sacredcello 5 months ago
@AMTattersall Jesus is preaching a radically new relationship with God in Matthew 6:7. He says that the poor in spirit will inherit the kingdom of heaven and that enemies are not to be hated, but loved. What kind of god would make such demands? Certainly not a god like the gods of Gentiles. This God is Our Heavenly Father. We pray to Him in a way radically different from the manner in which Gentiles prayed to their gods. Hence, “do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; ....”.
sacredcello 5 months ago
@AMTattersall Jesus repeats the same prayer in the garden of Gethsemane three times (Mt. 26:39, 42, 44); He responded favorably to the repeated prayers of the blind men (Mt. 20:29-33); and the angels in heaven repeat unceasingly, “Holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come” (Rev. 4:8). In Psalm 136, the response, “for His steadfast love endures forever” or, in another translation, “His mercy endures forever,” is repeated 26 times.
sacredcello 5 months ago
@AMTattersall Christ warned His faithful to avoid praying as the pagans do. However, He did not warn against repetition itself. Otherwise, Jesus the God-man inexplicably contradicts Himself in Matthew 6:8-14 when He teaches His disciples to pray the Our Father. His followers would be guilty of repetitious prayer the moment they said this prayer for the second time. Christ’s emphasis was on “vain” and “empty” repetitious prayer. This conclusion is affirmed elsewhere in Scripture.
sacredcello 5 months ago
@AMTattersall Also, the words of Jesus emphasize that prayer to non-existent gods is necessarily vain and useless. Aside from being violations of the First Commandment, such prayers fall on deaf ears. One example is the repetitive prayer of the worshippers of Baal in 1 Kings 18:26-29. They took the bull given them, prepared it, and called on the name of Baal from morning until noon, saying “O Baal, answer us!”
sacredcello 5 months ago
@AMTattersall .. thanks for these vidios , very interesting and they helped me a lot , because I had a friend who walked the labyrinth and that person was dark in spirit. but as to this comment, there are no other Gods, that is just satan convincing people, these are just myths , False Idols. a bit like micky mouse, and as for rosery , the prayer must be performed 5 times a day without the use of the rosery , but is nothing wrong with invoking God by calling out to him over and over, peace
Bilalisa1 5 months ago
@AMTattersall THis is why I walked away from Catholicism. Repetitive prayer...Toooo much emphasis on Mary...and prayer to the dead(seance actually) praying to the dead.THere's more but those 2 will do for now.
lookingup82 3 months ago
@sacredcello
For some time I have pondered Revelation 12 v 1+
"Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars."
It appears that the sign in heaven (the sky) is the star constellation called Virgo and there is a precise time when the moon appears under her feet which is believed to signify the birth of Jesus in 3 BC.
Search "Virgo" "12 Stars" "Revelation" etc
How does this apply to Exodus 20:4?
AMTattersall 4 months ago
Comment removed
sacredcello 5 months ago
Hebrews 3:3 - Jesus is worthy of "more" glory and honor than Moses. This does not mean that the saints are worthy of no glory and honor. Instead, it proves that saintly people are worthy of glory and honor out of God's goodness.
Heb. 6:12 – the author teaches us to be imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Heb. 13:7 - we must imitate the faith of our faithful leaders. We ask for their intercession and venerate them for their holiness.
sacredcello 5 months ago
Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)
sacredcello 5 months ago
James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.
sacredcello 5 months ago
Jesus is our intercessor and nowhere does the Bible say that Mary is to do this role instead
The curtain tore in the temple to give us direct access to God.
Just wondering where you are at with Acts 19:1-6? I have received the Holy Spirit.
God Bless
AMTattersall 5 months ago
@AMTattersall 1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.
1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).
sacredcello 5 months ago
@AMTattersall 1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?
sacredcello 5 months ago
In the monarchy of King David, as well as in other ancient kingdoms of the Near East, the mother of the ruling king held an important office in the royal court and played a key part in the process of dynastic succession. In fact, the king’s mother ruled as queen, not his wife.
sacredcello 5 months ago
@sacredcello
I cannot agree with the Heavenly Titles of "Queen of Heaven" or "Mother of God" and need to leave it at that.
My conclusion is based on many things including:
Jesus GAVE HIS MOTHER AWAY at the Crucifixion to John and strongly referred to her as WOMAN and not mother.
Jesus denied his mother and brothers and sisters when they were looking for him and said to the crowd "YOU are my brothers and sisters and MOTHER"
Mary does not appear in Revelation next to God's or Jesus' throne etc
AMTattersall 5 months ago
@AMTattersall Our first parents had chosen the way of sin as a couple; a new pair, the Son of God with his Mother's co-operation, would re-establish the human race in its original dignity.
Mary, the New Eve, thus becomes a perfect icon of the Church. In the divine plan, at the foot of the Cross, she represents redeemed humanity which, in need of salvation, is enabled to make a contribution to the unfolding of the saving work.
sacredcello 5 months ago
@AMTattersall On two solemn occasions, that is, at Cana and beneath the Cross, Jesus addresses as "Woman" (cf. Jn 2, 4; 19, 26). Mary is associated as a woman in the work of salvation. Having created man "male and female" (cf. Gn 1:27), the Lord also wants to place the New Eve beside the New Adam in the Redemption.
sacredcello 5 months ago
@AMTattersall Jesus' words acquire their most authentic meaning in the context of his saving mission. Spoken at the moment of the redemptive sacrifice, they draw their loftiest value precisely from this sublime circumstance.
sacredcello 5 months ago
@AMTattersall
In fact, attentive consideration of the text, confirmed by the interpretation of many Fathers and by common ecclesial opinion, presents us, in Jesus' twofold entrustment, with one of the most important events for understanding the Virgin's role in the economy of salvation.
sacredcello 5 months ago
@AMTattersall
Interpreted at times as no more than an expression of Jesus' filial piety towards his Mother whom he entrusts for the future to his beloved disciple, these words go far beyond the contingent need to solve a family problem.
sacredcello 5 months ago
@AMTattersall These particularly moving words are a "revelation scene": they reveal the deep sentiments of the dying Christ and contain a great wealth of meaning for Christian faith and spirituality. At the end of his earthly life, as he addressed his Mother and the disciple he loved, the crucified Messiah establishes a new relationship of love between Mary and Christians.
sacredcello 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@AMTattersall These particularly moving words are a "revelation scene": they reveal the deep sentiments of the dying Christ and contain a great wealth of meaning for Christian faith and spirituality. At the end of his earthly life, as he addressed his Mother and the disciple he loved, the crucified Messiah establishes a new relationship of love between Mary and Christians.
sacredcello 5 months ago
The great pre-eminence of the king’s mother may seem odd from our modern Western perspective, in which we think of a queen as being the wife of a king. However, recall that most ancient Near-Eastern kings practiced polygamy.
sacredcello 5 months ago
King Solomon had seven hundred wives (1 Kgs. 11:3)—imagine the chaos in the royal court if all seven hundred were awarded the queenship! But since each king had only one mother, one can see the practical wisdom in bestowing the queenship upon her.
sacredcello 5 months ago
A few Old Testament prophecies incorporate the queen mother tradition when telling of the future Messiah. One example is Isaiah 7:14, which originated during a time of dynastic crisis in Judah when Syria and Israel were threatening Jerusalem and plotting to overthrow King Ahaz.
sacredcello 5 months ago
God offers Ahaz a sign that the kingdom will continue: "Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also? Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Emmanuel" (Isa. 7:13–14).
sacredcello 5 months ago
On one level, this passage points to the next king (Hezekiah) as a pledge that the Davidic dynasty will continue despite the threats of invading armies. At the same time, the royal son who is to be named "Emmanuel" points to the future messianic king (cf., Isa. 9:6–7, 11:1–2). This is why the New Testament says Jesus fulfills this prophecy from Isaiah (Matt. 1:23).
sacredcello 5 months ago
For our purposes we should note how this prophecy links the mother to her royal son. Since the oracle is addressed specifically to the Davidic household and concerns the continuation of the dynasty, the young woman bearing forth the royal son would be understood as a queen mother.
sacredcello 5 months ago
This has implications for our understanding of Mary. Since the mother of the king always ruled as queen mother, we should expect to find the mother of the messianic king playing the role of the true queen mother in the everlasting Kingdom of God.
sacredcello 5 months ago
With this Old Testament background, we can now more clearly see how the New Testament portrays Mary in light of the queen mother tradition.
The Gospel of Matthew has often been called the "Gospel of the Kingdom." Matthew emphasizes that Jesus is "the Son of David," who is the true King of the Jews establishing the "Kingdom of Heaven." With all this kingly imagery, it should not be surprising to find queen mother themes as well.
sacredcello 5 months ago
Right away, Matthew shows explicitly how the infant Jesus is the "Emmanuel" child as prophesied in Isaiah 7:14 (Matt. 1:23). As we saw above, this prophecy links the royal messianic child with his queen mother. Further, Matthew singles out the intimate relationship between the mother and her royal son by using the phrase "the child and his mother" five times in the first two chapters, recalling the close association between queen mother and royal son as described in the Books of Kings.
sacredcello 5 months ago
Just as the queen mother was constantly mentioned alongside the Judean kings in 1 and 2 Kings, so Mary is frequently mentioned alongside her royal son, Jesus, in Matthew’s infancy narrative (Matt. 1:18; 2:11, 13, 14, 20, 21).
sacredcello 5 months ago
We find Mary portrayed against the background of Davidic kingdom motifs in Luke’s Gospel as well, especially in his accounts of the Annunciation and Visitation. First, the angel Gabriel is said to appear to a virgin betrothed to a man "of the house of David" (1:27).
sacredcello 5 months ago
Then the angel tells Mary, "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there will be no end" (Luke 1:31–33).
sacredcello 5 months ago
Hear the strong Davidic overtones describing Mary and her royal son: a woman from the house of David giving birth to a son who will be the new king whose reign will never end. With echoes from the queen mother tradition of the Davidic kingdom and the mother-son prophecy of Isaiah 7:14, we can conclude that Mary is being given the vocation of queen mother.
sacredcello 5 months ago
Mary’s royal office is made even more explicit in Luke’s account of the Visitation. Elizabeth greets Mary with the title "the mother of my Lord" (Luke 1:43). This title is charged with great queenly significance.
sacredcello 5 months ago
In the royal court language of the ancient NearEast, the title "Mother of my Lord" was used to address the queen mother of the reigning king (who himself was addressed as "my Lord"; cf., 2 Sam. 24:21). Thus with this title Elizabeth is recognizing the great dignity of Mary’s role as the royal mother of the king, Jesus.
sacredcello 5 months ago
Finally, Mary’s queenship can be seen in the great vision described in Revelation 12: "And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery" (Rev. 12:1–2). Who is this newborn child? He is described as the messianic king exercising his dominion.
sacredcello 5 months ago
In verse 5, the author of Revelation chose the messianic Psalm 2 to describe how this child will "rule all the nations with a rod of iron" (Rev. 12:5, Ps. 2:9). This royal son is taken up to heaven to sit on a throne (Rev. 12:5), and he ushers in the kingdom of God by defeating the devil: "Now the kingdom of our God has come, for the accuser has been throne down" (12:10). Certainly, this newborn child is the royal Messiah, King Jesus.
sacredcello 5 months ago
In this light it is clear who this woman is who gave birth to the messiah: It is Mary. Some people have interpreted this woman in Revelation 12 as merely a symbol either for the Old Testament people of Israel or for the New Testament Church and therefore have concluded that the woman cannot be an individual (i.e., Mary).
sacredcello 5 months ago
However, this "either-or" proposition is foreign to the biblical worldview, in which individuals often symbolically represent collective groups. For instance, Adam represented all humanity (Rom. 5:19), and Jacob stood for all of Israel (Ps. 44:4). Given this biblical notion called "corporate personality," the woman in Revelation 12 should be understood as both an individual (Mary) and a symbol for the people of God.
sacredcello 5 months ago
But for our purposes, once we see that this woman is Mary, the mother of Jesus, it is important to note how she is portrayed as queen in this passage. Her royal office is hinted at by the imagery of the sun, moon, and twelve stars, which recalls the Old Testament story of Joseph’s dream in which the sun, moon, and stars bow down before him, symbolizing his future authority (Gen. 37:9–11).
sacredcello 5 months ago
Her queenship is made even clearer by the crown of twelve stars on her head. Just like the queen mother in Jeremiah 13:18, here Mary is wearing a crown, symbolizing her royal office in the kingdom of heaven. In sum, Revelation 12 portrays Mary as the new queen mother in the Kingdom of God, sharing in her son’s rule over the universe.
sacredcello 5 months ago
The Old Testament queen mother tradition serves as an important background for understanding Mary’s royal office. Indeed, the New Testament portrays Mary as the queen mother par excellence. Thus, prayers, hymns, and art giving honor to Mary’s queenship are most fitting biblical responses for Christians. In honoring her as queen mother we do not take anything away from Christ’s glory, but rather we exalt him even more by recognizing the great work he has done in her and through her.
sacredcello 5 months ago
Understanding Mary as queen mother sheds light on her important intercessory role in the Christian life. Just like the queen mother of the Davidic kingdom, Mary serves as advocate for the people in the Kingdom of God today. Thus, we should approach our queen mother with confidence, knowing that she carries our petitions to her royal son and that he responds to her as Solomon did to Bathsheba: "I will never refuse you."
sacredcello 5 months ago
The King of Kings requires a Queen, and in Israel, it is the King's Mother who sits on the throne and exerts power as "The Great Lady" ("gebirah" or "gevirah," as this position is known in Hebrew). Just as Bethsabee (Bathsheba), the mother of King Solomon, acted as intercessor for the people of Israel, Our Lady acts as intercessor for us with the King of Kings:
sacredcello 5 months ago
@sacredcello
Dear sacredcello, on what basis can you Biblically transfer the power of Bethsabee mother of King Soloimon to Mary mother, virgin woman who bore Jesus to be intercessor to Jesus, the King of Kings.
You have created the parallel, but where where does God or Jesus say this is to be done?
AMTattersall 5 months ago
@AMTattersall
One biblical theme sheds light on these questions and serves as a key for unlocking the mystery of Mary’s queenship: the Old Testament tradition of the "queen mother" in the Davidic kingdom. Please see my posts above for a fuller answer to your question. May God bless you, too, AMTettersall
sacredcello 5 months ago
III Kings 2:19-20
Then Bethsabee came to king Solomon, to speak to him for Adonias: and the king arose to meet her, and bowed to her, and sat down upon his throne: and a throne was set for the king's mother, and she sat on his right hand. And she said to him: I desire one small petition of thee, do not put me to confusion. And the king said to her: My mother, ask: for I must not turn away thy face.
sacredcello 5 months ago
Psalm 44, which prophesied Our Lord, speaks of the Queen at His right hand, one whose name will be remembered "throughout all generations": Unto the end, for them that shall be changed, for the sons of Core, for understanding. A canticle for the Beloved. My heart hath uttered a good word I speak my works to the king; My tongue is the pen of a scrivener that writeth swiftly
sacredcello 5 months ago
Thou art beautiful above the sons of men: grace is poured abroad in thy lips; therefore hath God blessed thee for ever. Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O thou most mighty. With thy comeliness and thy beauty set out, proceed prosperously, and reign. Because of truth and meekness and justice: and thy right hand shall conduct thee wonderfully.
sacredcello 5 months ago
Thy arrows are sharp: under thee shall people fall, into the hearts of the king's enemies. Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a sceptre of uprightness. Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Myrrh and stacte and cassia perfume thy garments, from the ivory houses: out of which the daughters of kings have delighted thee in thy glory.
sacredcello 5 months ago
The queen stood on thy right hand, in gilded clothing; surrounded with variety. Hearken, O daughter, and see, and incline thy ear: and forget thy people and thy father's house. And the king shall greatly desire thy beauty; for he is the Lord thy God, and him they shall adore. And the daughters of Tyre with gifts, yea, all the rich among the people, shall entreat thy countenance. All the glory of the king's daughter is within in golden borders, Clothed round about with varieties
sacredcello 5 months ago
@sacredcello
Re the queen on the right hand of Jesus, as Jesus is King of Kings, the queen will be the Church after the "marriage supper of the Lamb" and as such Mary will be a member of the church, not a replacement for the Church
AMTattersall 5 months ago
After her shall virgins be brought to the king: her neighbours shall be brought to thee. They shall be brought with gladness and rejoicing: they shall be brought into the temple of the king. Instead of thy fathers, sons are born to thee: thou shalt make them princes over all the earth. They shall remember thy name throughout all generations. Therefore shall people praise thee for ever; yea, for ever and ever.
sacredcello 5 months ago
Mary evokes this Psalm in her response to St. Gabriel's Annunciation to her:
Luke 1:46-48 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
sacredcello 5 months ago
@sacredcello
Absolutely Mary was blessed to be the earthly mother of Jesus.
I do not deny this, but where does this say that she will be Mother of God, Queen of Heaven?
AMTattersall 5 months ago
St. John's Apocalypse reveals that he saw Our Lady crowned with stars, one for each of the twelve tribes and the twelve Apostles. St. John saw her as Queen in Heaven, the mother of the one who was to "rule all nations":
sacredcello 5 months ago
@sacredcello
Consider Revelation 12:17 who talking about this woman "And the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
As we are not descendants of Mary (although there may be some exceptions) this woman can on be the Church once again.
The woman is defined as the church once again.
AMTattersall 5 months ago
@AMTattersall
Mary is the Mother of all Christians. May God bless you with the fullness of Truth.
sacredcello 5 months ago
Apocalypse 12:1-5
And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. And there was seen another sign in heaven:
sacredcello 5 months ago
and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.
sacredcello 5 months ago
Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.
sacredcello 5 months ago
The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinct persons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity.
sacredcello 5 months ago
This was interesting until you misrepresented Mary's role in salvation history. She is the Mother of God, but she is not worshipped. She intercedes for the faithful and we ask her to pray for us. You might protest and say that her title "Mother of God" is not mentioned in the Scriptures. But, "The Holy Trinity" is not mentioned in Scripture either, but it is no less a truth of the Catholic faith. Thanks for exposing the labyrinth, but what you say about Mary is heresy.
sacredcello 5 months ago
@sacredcello
Dearest sacredcello, I know that Mary is the earthly mother of Jesus but I am wondering how the title of "Mother of God" can be found in Bible scripture. To be mother of the Creator God, is a higher title than GOD himself, which is a position that Lucifer sought but failed.
I love Mary as I do all the prophets and saints of the Bible. I spent considerable time researching this and found some very relevant verses.
Hebrew 7: 25-27 for who is our intercessor
AMTattersall 5 months ago
@AMTattersall
Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.
God bless you, too, AMTettersall.
sacredcello 5 months ago
@sacredcello
More relevant verses
John 19:26 for the title that Jesus gave his mother Mary
John 19:26-27 for whose mother she became.
Jeremiah 7:18, 44:15-30, Revelation 18:7 for the Queen of Heaven
(Revelation 17 & 18 should be understood.)
The wife of GOD in the OT is Israel and the bride of Jesus is the Church so I am wondering how Mary fits in with this Biblically.
God Bless you sacredcello
AMTattersall 5 months ago
@AMTattersall
Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.
sacredcello 5 months ago
@sacredcello
Exactly as John 1:14 says.
The Word became flesh (ie man) and made his dwelling among us.
Jesus referred to himself as "The Son of Man" meaning exactly that. He was saying that he is born of man via Mary and as such Mary is not devine (ie a god or deity) or he could not have been a "Son of Man".
He also had to be born of the line of Abraham and David, so Mary could not have been devine but chosen.
Jesus left his human form behind when he received his new resurrected body.
AMTattersall 5 months ago
@AMTattersall
You are correct that Mary is not "divine." However, none of your above statement refutes her title as Mother of God. Your denial of her motherhood is illogical and incorrect.
sacredcello 5 months ago
@sacredcello
How is seeking/praying to Mary different to Saul seeking the dead Samuel?
Saul was seeking familiar spirits/speaking with the dead (necromancy) which is an abomination (Deuteronomy 18:11-12)
Seeking/praying to the saints is seeking familiar spirits/speaking to the dead (necromancy).
May God bless you with Truth
AMTattersall 5 months ago
1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul's practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.
Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.
sacredcello 5 months ago
Well, I just look on this as entertainment. I don't think the sources are well indicated, but as opinion, it is what it is. Labyrinths are fun and I enjoy seeing them here in Europe. I have a lot of kooky ideas about minotaurs and stuff. So I'm no one to criticize. Astrological signs are typical here in old churches. They were to help people understand months and seasons, the passing of time. Chartres was built out of jealousy over Saint-Denis, so go figure.
CuteCatFaith 5 months ago
@CuteCatFaith
Hi CuteCatFaith, I am just wondering what your faith is.
You may be interested in watching The Mystery of the Labyrinth by HearkenTheWatchmen. The start isn't about labyrinths but I found it very amusing.
Chartres Cathedral, France by Fluweel2 is also a good watch.
May God bless you with good health.
AMTattersall
AMTattersall 5 months ago
@AMTattersall No one seems to know what my faith is! I just did some cool vids in France of a labyrinth at Montal and hope to have them posted soon. I have two channels here and also do Dailymotion. A lot of the labyrinths remind me of the human brain and I think it may be a message to just use our brains and think.
CuteCatFaith 5 months ago
@AMTattersall You clearly have superior knowledge of the Bible, I've never read it cover to cover, but I do believe that people interpret it in different ways. But I think you'll find that in ancient Greece that Zeus was the King of Heaven.
An abomination to you it may be but to all those people he was the real God and Judaism was wrong. I'm not saying that's right but I think it's a little unfair to completely discredit one ancient belief because Hitler worshiped Zeus in the last century.
alittlebitmuddled 6 months ago
@alittlebitmuddled
Yes you are correct that people believed in their god including those who worshipped Zeus.
The Book of Revelation 2:13 speaks of human sacrifice at the Altar of Zeus in Pergamon and the human sacrifices in Luke 13:1 were committed by Pilate who was probably a worshipper of Jupiter (Zeus).
However, there can only be one Creator.
Only one god can be the True GOD.
Be sure to find the right one because the consequence of being wrong is eternal separation from GOD and Heaven.
AMTattersall 6 months ago
Okay half of this was really interesting until you started referring to Zeus as 'Satan' because of some really vague link. Also I'm not entirely sure that you can decide what can or can't be part of a church, or to accuse people of paganism for worshiping Mary as you would a saint. Why can't Mary be considered alongside some of the saints? You sir seem like a sexist arsehole. (The Labyrinth's history was cool to know though).
alittlebitmuddled 6 months ago
@alittlebitmuddled
Dear alittlebitmuddled, I pray that God will give you clear thinking and truth.
I have to censor your comment because of the swearing. In regards to my deciding what can or cant be part of a church, I am only following God's Word the Bible as to how these things are judged.
Yes Mary is a saint, as are ALL true Christians. To be a saint is a choice that we make.
God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is who I pray to. I love Mary but do not pray to her as a god, but God.
AMTattersall 6 months ago
@alittlebitmuddled
Further on the Zeus issue, have a read of the book of 2 Maccabbees. This is the prophecy of Daniel 8.
The Altar of Zeus set up in the Jerusalem Temple is the Abomination of Desolation prophecied. Jesus also spoke about this in the gospels. The Roman god Jupiter is Zeus. Suggest that you watch "The Rape of Europe" by David Hathaway.
Note also that Adolf Hitler worshipped at the Altar of Zeus - therefore worshipped Zeus.
People need to wake up to what they are playing with
AMTattersall 6 months ago
ahem.. "we need to know whether the minotaur us a real being or a myth" - ITS A MAN WITH A BULLS HEAD JUST A HUNCH BUT I RECKON IT MAY BE A MYTH
ophiolatreia 7 months ago
@ophiolatreia
Thank you for your comments. Whether or not it is a myth depends on whether or not it actually existed which history suggests something did .
Exactly what it was (eg. an idol or a man dressed with a bulls head on top, etc) is unknown but I suspect something actually did exist.
Part 3 of the video series offers a Biblical alternative view to the topic.
AMTattersall 7 months ago
I just read Labrynth by Kate Moss.
ophiolatreia 7 months ago
Thank you for revealing the truth to those who love the truth and not thier feelings, intellect, and institutions. Some will not hear, some will. Some cannot even see the enemy for what he is because they will not obey that which they do know. Therefore, they are pulled into more seemingly innocent - even appearing to be helpful - practices. But they are not of God and lead to even more deception.
iamgodgirl 8 months ago
And my other point
-We use tha words 'Prayer Labyrinth' as a title, nothing else...if it did/does cause a problem using that title, we could just as easily call it a Prayer Walk...it's the same thing, it just doesn't have the word Labyrinth in it...in my experience of prayer labyrinths, there isn't actual anything labyrinth about it, the reason why we used that title is because you make a journey/walk through the labyrinth
ertricon 9 months ago
@ertricon
Thank you for your comments.
A recommended verse to meditate on as you walk the labyrinth is Revelation 22:15 - "But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolators, and WHOEVER LOVES AND PRACTICES A LIE."
Please use God's Word the Bible and historical evidence to determine whether or not the labyrinth that you love and practice is a lie.
Seek the Truth for the Truth will set you free.
May God Bless you with Truth.
AMTattersall 9 months ago
This is interesting...my only couple of points would be
-it pulls out anything and everything, however small, that could be used against 'Labyrinths' being used in the Church...many of the links made are very tedius, and could quite easily be countered by saying the opposite...I haven't watched the third part yet, but so far there is nothing on the other side of the argument, which does make it difficult to follow a very one sided, almost desperate sounding, argument
ertricon 9 months ago
Why can we never learn- Scripture and thus Gods grace is sufficient for us so why do we hanker after the things of the world and keep trying to make them acceptable to God- we should learn the lesson of doing than in Scripture. If its not in the bible then dont do it- simple- just follow the Lord as He asked doing only those things He asked. The apostate and emergent church is leading people away from truth and into paganism
awaitthegroom 10 months ago
@awaitthegroom
"If it's not in the Bible then don't do it". This is a fair point, but I would liek to question it...there are a lot of thnigs we do today that are not in the Bible. Watching TV (I know this in an argument in itself), driving, going on holiday, going to the theatre...these aren't in the Bible, does that mean we shouldn't do them?
ertricon 9 months ago
@awaitthegroom
"If it's not in the Bible then don't do it". This is a fair point, but I would liek to question it...there are a lot of thnigs we do today that are not in the Bible. Watching TV (I know this in an argument in itself), driving, going on holiday, going to the theatre...these aren't in the Bible, does that mean we shouldn't do them?
ertricon 9 months ago
@awaitthegroom
sorry that wasn't supposed to post three times!
Steering away from the 'pleasure' things in life, what about holiday clubs, games with kids, going into schools, teaching through drama, serving WITH young people, sports ministries and various other ministry activities we do today...none of these are in the Bible, so should we be not doing them?
ertricon 9 months ago
In terms of the use of prayer 'devices', Jesus asked us to pray daily, and, yes, he asked us to pray in a specific way, but unless someone prays the exact words "Our father who art in heaven..." every time they pray, we are not doing exactly what Jesus asked us to do...generally, we interpret that as 'when we pray we should give glory to God, say thankyou, say sorry and ask'...
ertricon 9 months ago
We use prayer devices as a way to focus our attention...they are not what Jesus asked us to do, but if they help us to focus when praying are they not still a good thing?
ertricon 9 months ago
@ertricon As I said above and you say yourself- Jesus did not ask is to use them becaue they are PAGAN in origin. You have the Holt Spirit who the Bible says intercedes for us in prayer. Why would you use something God has said is an abomination- we are to abstain from all practices- Paul says it si a shame to mention what they do- can I ask you why would you defend something which is not of God. If it helps you pray then I ask which God are you praying to that you need this ritual?
awaitthegroom 9 months ago
@awaitthegroom
You're saying the idea of writing a prayer down on paper, or listening to reflective music, or being given a starting point of relevant verses is a pagan idea? That's all a Prayer Labyrinth is to me...there is actually nothing 'labyrinth'y about it!
I use Prayer 'Labyrinths' with young people, several of whom don't know how to pray, and it gives them a starting point. I never said anyone shoudl require them in order to pray...it's not a ritual...if it is, then that is wrong!
ertricon 9 months ago
@ertricon I am saying that we have the Holy Spirit who is our helper in prayer- if a person truly calls on the Lord no matter how he speaks but in his heart he is humble then the Lord will hear him. I think the point I am making is that we dont need anything- therefore if we feel we are using "aids" to prayer- ask yourself why when the bible clearly states these are not necessary and are in fact to be avoided. Would you use runes or tarot to prompt prayer- hopefully not. Young people need faith.
awaitthegroom 9 months ago
@awaitthegroom
I completely agree. However, when you're thinking about someone who has never prayed before, doesn;t know how to pray, is completely daunted by the idea of 'everyone close your eyes and put yoru hands together' (that is the perception a lot of young peopel have!), just telling them to rely on the Holy Spirit doesn't help them much...quite often you would have to go on to explaining the Holy Spirit...all I'm saying is that it CAN be used as a starting point.
ertricon 9 months ago
@ertricon God loves us so much He continually warns us to stay away from the appearance of evil, not be mismated with unbelievers, dont do what the pagans do- etc etc. I dont NEED to use pagan tools but if I do then I pay the price of sin before my Lord. I dont know better than Him so obediance is most important. Music and nature are natural and Biblical gifts to encourage our prayer and praise. Labyrinths are not- the video explains why. Nothing wrong in learning we need to let things go.
awaitthegroom 9 months ago
@awaitthegroom
You are getting hung up on the word 'Labyrinth'. Thats all the video talks about, the word...it doesnt actually talk about what a Prayer Labyrinth is...you've just said that music and nature are Biblical gifts to encourage our prayer and praise...that is exactly what a prayer labyrinth is...using music, pen and paper, recomended Bible verses etc to encourage our prayer!
ertricon 9 months ago
@ertricon Sorry- I think you are missing the point-I have answered in full as to why I think these things arewrong- I leave you to work it out with the Lord -thank you for our conversation and God bless you
awaitthegroom 9 months ago
@ertricon Well just sit down with them and pray-
awaitthegroom 9 months ago
@awaitthegroom
That's easy for someone who knows how to pray...several reasons I have heard from young people as to why they don't pray include
-I don't know how to pray
-I don't know what to pray for
-I don't know what to say
-I don't know what is the best way to pray
-I don't feel comfortable praying liek everyone else
Along with others. Now all a prayer walk does is give them things to pray for, how to pray, different 'ways' of praying, help with what to say etc.
ertricon 9 months ago
@ertricon The very best you can do for them is to pray with them- using a pagan practice does not justify it. They will learn to pray when they do it enough- either with or without you- the Spirit will guide them into faith if they are truly saved, As their responsible adult emphasis should be on relationship with Jesus Christ- prayer is a natural result Biblically assisted by the Spirit-perhaps they feel that way because they see ritual not relationship
awaitthegroom 9 months ago
@awaitthegroom
Different people pray in different ways. Personally, I find it easiest to pray when I am out walking and listening to music, or when I can sit and do creative writing, writing my prayer through poetry. Both of those things could be used in a prayer labyrinth. Are they wrong? Am I turning to pagan ideas by doing them? A part of the purpsoe of prayer labyrinths are to try and help people find a way of praying that they feel comfortable with and easiest...
ertricon 9 months ago
@ertricon I agree that we all pray in various aspects but the tools used must be godly- the nature of the labyrinth is of a pagan root- the Bible says always to look at the root- it may appear good or to work- There is a way that seems right to man but leads to death. Never judge something by its feeling or seeming good. That leads to lying signs and wonders, Our benchmark is always Scripture. Jesus would have been aware of labyrinths in his day but never used one or mentions them.
awaitthegroom 9 months ago
@awaitthegroom
I am going to stress the fact that the word 'Labyrinth' is of pagan origin...like I keep saying, we can change the name! Prayer Labyrinths have nothing to do with actual labyrinths at all...apart from the name, there is nothing pagan about them!
ertricon 9 months ago
This is interesting, but never seemed to address some other sides of the argument. I suppose, with all of this information one might be completely convinced that there's no way that a Christian could use it as a tool to direct their thoughts towards God. That seems to be the main point I have found on any Christian labyrinth web sites. The way it is used is in stark contrast to the ways used by satanists or druids. We all use a fork to eat. Some might eat their sacrificed humans with it tho
djsixtysix523 10 months ago
@djsixtysix523 Re sides of the argument, have you asked God for his opinion on this or do you rely on the thoughts of men?
The answers are in the Bible.
I recommend that you watch Dave Hunt's " A Woman rides the Beast" and "Chartres Cathedral, France" by Fluweel2.
AMTattersall 10 months ago
@AMTattersall
You say the answers are in the Bible and yet even you cannot find any book or verse that directly addresses labyrinths. I do believe that the answers are in the Bible, and yet I still maintain an open mind to allow the Holy Spirit to guide me as He has done all of my life. And so I'll do this, I will read my Bible and I will pray to find what God is telling me.
Ardaielanti 10 months ago
@Ardaielanti "The mystery of the labyrinth" starting at part 4/7 on YouTube may have some Old Testament references to the labyrinth that you are seeking.
AMTattersall 10 months ago
@AMTattersall
You say the answers are in the Bible and yet even you cannot find any book or verse that directly addresses labyrinths. I do believe that the answers are in the Bible, and yet I still maintain an open mind to allow the Holy Spirit to guide me as He has done all of my life. And so I'll do this, I will read my Bible and I will pray to find what God is telling me.
Ardaielanti 10 months ago
@djsixtysix523 The Bible tells us to stay away from the appearance of evil and the practices which the pagans used so there is no reason to use it when the Bible clearly tells us we dont need it. The church today is very bad at leaving alone things we dont need and just doing what Jesus asks- its so much easier to obey that than get tied up in man made and sometimes dangerous forms of practices and then" Christianise " them
awaitthegroom 10 months ago
@awaitthegroom
"If it's not in the Bible then don't do it". This is a fair point, but I would liek to question it...there are a lot of thnigs we do today that are not in the Bible. Watching TV (I know this in an argument in itself), driving, going on holiday, going to the theatre...these aren't in the Bible, does that mean we shouldn't do them?
ertricon 9 months ago
@ertricon Now I think you are wandering into surrealism- The issue is not whether smoking is mentioned in the Bible- its that we are the temple of God and that smoking destroys our health and those around us. Similarly the Bible clearly tells us to stay away from pagan practices of which this was clearly one. Dress it up how you will- that kind of excusing will lead you and your young people into deception. Discernment is a valuable gift- not much of it about today in the church of apostasy.
awaitthegroom 9 months ago
@awaitthegroom
What part of listening to reflective worship music, writing prayers on paper, drawing our thoughts on paper, looking at relevant Bible passages, praying for other countries etc is pagan and 'dangerous' to what God says is best for us?
The video doesn't actually talk about what a prayer labyrinth is...it just talks about the word labyrinth...we don't have to give it that name! The question I have is what part of a prayer labyrinth other than the name is page or dangerous?
ertricon 9 months ago
@ertricon When we struggle with something in our faith we should press in with the Holy Spirit as our guide. We should remember Gods word is complete and holds the answers to all our questions, it staes clearly the risks of meddling with pagan things right from the start- some Christians think Harry Potter is ok- the Bible is very clear that it is not.We are continually warned against deception and in the OT God did not let them intermarry with pagans as they would have defiled and outbred them
awaitthegroom 9 months ago
@ertricon One thing God is is gracious- when He reveals something to us then we can move on. Thats what maturity is in Christ and that humbles us to keep seeking Him and learning more. When we learn to simply do what He asks then we become free indeed- no Alpha course, no Purpose driven, no man made methods- just Biblical obediance and humility- it is the only way to be truly free in Jesus Christ. He hears your prayer wherever and however you pray- He sees the heart.
awaitthegroom 9 months ago
@awaitthegroom
We are becoming an increasingly visual and practical society...I know a lot of people who struggle with just sitting down and praying...they don't find it easy, they feel uncomfortable, they struggle to concentrate etc. Give them some sort of 'prayer activity' to do, such as drawing a picture, and they're in their prime. Why is that so wrong?
ertricon 9 months ago
@awaitthegroom
We get hung up on a 'Prayer Meeting' mentality of prayer...sitting down, eyes closed, no distractions, speaking to God...why must this be the only way of praying? When we say that people cannot pray in their own way because in the Bible Jesus commands us one way of doing it, we have two problems...1: It makes prayer impersonal! I pray through writing...that is personal to me! 2: We bring up one of the biggest 'weaknesses' with Christianity...people think it is irrelevant today!
ertricon 9 months ago
8:12 - "Shouldn't Jesus be wearing the crown?" Good question. This cathedral is reminiscent of a Roman Catholic church where Jesus is always shown hanging from a cross. You pray to Mary. The Pope replaces God as the highest power. This is Christianity? I think not. More like a place of worship for the Pharisees and Priestcraft who had a hand in killing Christ long ago. Whoever deigned the cathedral broke at least one commandment: "Have no other Gods before me."
ProjectRedPill1 1 year ago
More on Zeus. 2 Maccabees 6 1-11
An idol of the Greek God Zeus was placed on the altar in the Holy Temple of Jerusalem. Believed to be "the Abomination that causes desolation" in the book of Daniel.
In Acts 14, Barnabas and Paul were mistaken to be the incarnate god Zeus (Roman god Jupiter) and Hermes and tore their clothes in response.
AMTattersall 1 year ago
Great work, these 'symbol's' are hiding in plain sight everywhere.
1961slam 1 year ago
The accent is Australian :o)
AMTattersall 1 year ago
Great job on this presentation, & thank you for speaking slowly & enunciating for those of us not accustomed to UK accents. :)
TheParadiseReporter 1 year ago
God bless you brother for searching out this subject, the different graphics didn't show up though..
ASeedSower234 1 year ago
Yes Zeus is really Satan. Adolf Hitler worshipped at the Altar of Zeus and the Zeppelin Tribune where he held his speeches to his troops was modelled on the Seat of Satan.
AMTattersall 1 year ago
@AMTattersall Hitler also based his occultism on the Kabbalah.
ProjectRedPill1 1 year ago
@AMTattersall
Yes. I have just come to understand this very same fact. The eagle, symbol of Germany, is an attribute of the god Zeus.
fluweel2 11 months ago
What a great video. Boy there is so much to learn about this. Thanks for this info. Like a major dot to be connected. The only way to even find out what is wrong with this place you got to get a huge picture. How can we have been living in such complete blindness for so long? Is Zeus really Satan?
Sugamari 1 year ago