The Devil's Whore | Heaven and Earth | Channel 4

[recklesscharlie]

All discussion of the real Cromwell aside, can we focus on the bloody amazing job Dominic West did of portraying him? Top rate acting. This whole series is beautifully rendered.

[nickflavin2]

while i can understand why english people admire cromwell.they must also understand what he did in ireland was nothing short of ethnic cleansing.drogeda,arklow, clonmel and wexford were put to the sword,while legal land owning irish people were forced off their lands so cromwell could pay his soldiers.the irish were moved to connaught were countless died of famine while others were sent to the salve colonies abroad.the irish did nothing to deserve this.

[Lobos222]

@nickflavin2

Oliver Cromwell is not portrayed as a "good guy" in this mini series.

He is more complex that a simple black and white character.

And there are scenes, if only just brief, describing hes intended actions in Ireland, but the main story isnt about hes actions in Ireland or hes religious views. Putting aside aspects of good and evil hes character in the series is more pragmatical in regards to himself and the outcome.

Doing good when it gets the best outcome. Similar, doing evil when..

[mauriceconz]

Basically we're all entitled to our own opinions but from my point of view - based on what I've read - Cromwell was not the monster and chief cause of all the political and social evils of Ireland. I think that is an unfair and false charge and not backed up by all historians. I don't wish to debate any further.

[scottct22]

Here Here.

[NoelleHealy]

I suggest reading Dr. Mark Levene; 'Genocide in the Age of the Nation State: Vol 1 & 2'. His views on Cromwell's Act of Settlement in Ireland being the nearest thing on paper in British domestic record to a programme of state-sanctioned and systematic ethnic cleansing make quite the bedtime story.

[mauriceconz]

I think it is wrong to blame Cromwell for the English colonisation of Ireland as the policy had been in full swing reign of Elizabeth 1. Nor did Cromwell have much to do with the carrying out of it. I can quote from the book 'Cromwell: Our Chief of Men' by Antonia Fraser '...although the transplantations and Adventurers' settlements were put into effect during the commonwealth and protectorate, Cromwells personal interventions were always on the side of mercy for individuals'.

[singerinwhite]

@mauriceconz yeah - while there is some serious debate on the massacre of a number of Irish in some towns (who were ironically protestant I believe), any Irish Catholics he went after were from the rebel Catholic league - there is plenty of evidence showing that he was more religiously tolerant than a lot of people think, like when he reigned in the Puritains from taking over Maryland, and when he let the Jews back into the Isles after them being exiled for nearly 400 years

[Iamnotanumbernr1]

Cromwell fecked up in Munster. He used his relations to stay in power, used foul tactics like burning crops and made a mess of England so why should you be proud of that one?

He killed Catholics both in Ireland and England.

[mauriceconz]

Noellehealy. Don't patronise me! Actually I'm very learned on the subject of Cromwell and the Civil War period. Cromwell was a Titan - unrivalled in military prowess and was feared by land and sea across Europe. The only people who hate him are the Irish. To us Brits he's a hero. If he was so bad why has he got a statue outside the houses of Parliament? Think about it!!!

[NoelleHealy]

Are you even vaguely surprised as to there would be a *slight* animosity regarding him? I never refuted his involvement in the English civil war. My point merely infers he was a forerunner in genocide and ethnic cleansing. If thats a quality you feel should be valiantly revered then by all means, you have your opinion as I have mine. If you are so 'learned' on the subject of Cromwell then I defy you to defend his actions in Ireland. Would you have a statue of Robert Mugabe too yes?

[mauriceconz]

If Cromwell was so bad how come he's got a statue outside parliament? He was the greatest man Britain has ever had. As Antonia Fraser put it 'our chief of men'!!!!

[NoelleHealy]

i see you're well informed. pfft. go read something. start small.

[Biscom]

why does Oliver have to send soldiers to arrest Angelica just to talk to her?

[NoelleHealy]

coz boys are stoopid Biscom

[NoelleHealy]

freedom? pardon . . lol. The draconian laws applied by Oliver Cromwell in Ireland were an early version of ethnic cleansing. The Act of Settlement of Ireland is the nearest thing on paper in the British, domestic record, to a programme of state-sanctioned genocide. Bollox to you sir.

[mikesey1]

I was quite happy with the portrayal of Cromwell in this serialisation, right down to the rustic accent. It was fairer to him than previous portrayals as a religious maniac who murdered others for his own ends.

I didn't like the serial's ending however, which said he was crowned King! This was blatantly erroneous: he spurned all attempts to make him King, and openly laughed at those who offered him the crown.

Cromwell has always been maligned; he does not deserve that. He was for freedom.

[Duvlin]

Always remember...history is a bucket of ashes. Now go and live your day as if it was your last even if some day you will be right.

[Scoob505]

Cromwell, Murderer