Now matter how hard Collins tries to scientifically proove that a listening, understanding, and caring god exists, it will always go back to faith. Religion and the idea of god gets no more complicated than that. How is that so hard to understand?
How about we stop all this nonsense about a "natural world" and a "spiritual world" and just talk about "the world." Rephrase Collins' words at 9:00 under those terms and you get: "Science is THE WAY to search for truth about THE WORLD." Period. As far as a "spiritual world" is concerned, who has access to such things? And those who have claimed they have access, how? And why no one else? Faith is of no merit---it's just believing to believe to believe....
Where Collins gets it wrong is in claiming that the "hunger for something outside of ourselves" is a "universal" thing. He may speak for himself, but examples of people without that "hunger" do exist -- myself among them. Calling it "universal" is a trick many ideologues like C.S. Lewis love playing. "See? It's universal! So if you don't feel it, you're pushing it away!" No.
When we consider that evolution led to the development of mammals, then to the ancestors of apes, then to humans, and humans developed the ability to utilize language, we can conclude that evolution INDEED produced morality, for it is through language that we are able to discuss what one "should" or "should not" do. That example of the "drowning enemy" appeals to moral instincts that are habituated into people through upbringing.
@chirectomy "Delusion" means believing in a reality that DOES NOT EXIST. The book wouldn't sell nearly as well if it was called "The Unproven God," nor is that Dawkins' public position. He often asserts there is no God, which is metaphysical naturalism, a philosophical position, not a scientific one. What you describe in your first sentence is called "methodological naturalism" and because Dawkins invokes it doesn't mean he follows it consistently.
YES!!! It is so wacko to say I know there is no Santa Claus.
Santa Claus may well exist outside our circle of knowledge, just like Allah, Buddah and the Easter Bunny.
OR, we could use our brain, and look at the world's religions and evaluate that religions are conjured by man and these myths are almost certainly not true.
@Futureplanet Man can engineer molecules! It shows how it takes INTELLIGENCE in controlled laboratory conditions to mimic, manipulate, plagiarize a cell's Design! Scientists COPY genetic sequences!! They dont create anything!!
Its all Man made Synthetic chemistry! and it has nothing to do with the origin of life!! Homochirality is a disaster for any sort of naturalistic origins! There is no demonstrated source for such non-racemic mixture of sugars in any plausible pre-biotic environment!
@Futureplanet How many atheists conducted experiments showing DNA assembling it self? Also like collins says how do you get something from NOTHING!!! If the Big bang happened where did the matter and energy come from???
@crosbyj25 Yep so time natural chance processes must have done it right! Oh and something came from NOTHING! You must be smarter then Francis collins! Atheists are the most stubborn moronic people! You people make me Laugh!! HAHAAHAH!!
@5tonyvvvv Well scientist propose that as a theory not a fact, we honestly don't know but it's ok not to know isn't it? There's plenty of shit we've found out that we didn't previously know and your religion insists on moving the goal posts every time we do so.
@5tonyvvvv This is a classic argument from ignorance.
2000 BC. Where does lightening come from (if not from Thor)?
2000 AD. Where does matter and energy come from (if not God)?
Find a question that has no answer, and then insert god. Classic argument from ignorance. Not knowing any question, including universe, dark matter, quantum, etc. does NOT equal God.
Get serious. And stopping argueming to ignorance as an answer. It's really immature.
@5tonyvvvv I see, so you've changed from an argument for ignorance (which Collins uses) and changed it to an argument from Authority
Again completly immature. The debating skills of a 5th grader. Collins is no authority on religion, and just like every preacher, he has his own take on it.
Just more obvious proof of the man-made religions.
You need to learn that Atheism is not cosmology, and does NOT say anything about the universe creating itself. It's pathetic you try to connect the 2.
@Futureplanet It is truly and utterly ridiculous to say time chance natural processes produced this universe, all crammed into an Atom! But I know You know more then Francis collins!
@5tonyvvvv You idiot. Francis Collins works with Biology, not Cosmology. He knows nothing about the production of the universe, and humans don't know everything. Get over your arguement from ignorance. Are you telling me, as soon as we learn the processes of the universe (if ever) then that PROVES god doesn't exist? No it doesn't and an answer to any question is irrelevant to whether your mythology and religion is true or not.
Get over your ignorance of cosmology already will you?
@Futureplanet You must be calling collins an idiot as well! You are the MORON that just will never except the possibility a Creator!! The universe created its self, and DNA and homochirality organized its self!
@5tonyvvvv I'm not calling Collins an Idiot, and proves you are one for not being able to comprehend my point. Yes, yes. The big invisible man did everything, from nothing. And the tooth fairy has a lovely pink dress. Now go and get yourself another drink of cool-aid and keep spouting your arguments from Ignorance and Authority. It WILL work on other ignorant douches.
@Futureplanet Like I said sir, You are calling Francis collins an IDIOT! He believes the universe was created! I dont agree with him on everything! But he believes in a creator! Collins has studied all fields of science! from biochemistry to physics! He is the the head of the human genome project he is no fool and he believes the Cosmos was CREATED!
@5tonyvvvv Incorrect. Disagreeing with Francis's arguement to ignorance on morals, is hardly calling him an idiot. I did no such thing.
Francis's belief has nothing to do with biochemistry. His rationale comes from not being able to console morals into biochemistry, which is an argument to ignorance.
Just because Francis Collins knows some chemsitry, does not make him an authority on god. As I already said, you are now appealing to Authority. I could do that to, but it's a cheat shot.
@Futureplanet Religious belief is intuitive, he is not making an argument at all. His rationale? He had an epiphany in the woods, that's not a rationale. If you think all that there is to humans is logic and reason, I'm sorry to say that you're incorrect. Biochemistry is just another paradigm of understanding, he does not need the authority of biochemistry to make a logical conclusion. Even Hawkins has conceded that there is something outside of the Universe that is pumping gravity into it.
@12Ominous How does any of that equate to the bible being non-fiction? Answer? IT DOESN'T. I was explaining to 5stonyvvvv about his/her arguements to authority and ignorance. A concept they clearly did not understand.
@Futureplanet I doubt you will meet anyone in your whole life with the credentials of collins! I believe in God and so does Collins!! So we must both be idiots then..
@Futureplanet The fine-tuning of the universe proves a Creator! Atoms,Elements and matter always existed, IMPOSSIBLE! Who set this into motion? from where? Something outside of time space and matter! GOD!!!
@5tonyvvvv God always existed, IMPOSSIBILE! "Who" set this into motion? Is an absurd question, because you are supposing the answer to the universe is a "who".
"Who" just made the last bolt of lightening? Thor? God?
"Who" made a flower open up yesterday morning?
These are silly questions, and you are asking them, because you have an answer in mind. Your appeal to credulity (the universe is SOOO amazing it PROVES god), is another falicy.
@Futureplanet There are 2 kinds of atheists - one is an honest sincere seeker of TRUTH, while the other is often a bitter angry individual who seeks only to refute the existence of God. Antony flew and Collins followed logic, viewed all the evidence with no prejudice! The finely tuned universe and The INFORMATION inside proteins, Homochirality and DNA is what changed them!! But let me guess you know more then them right!
@5tonyvvvv It is truly and utterly ridiculous to say an invisible magic man in the sky made the universe FROM NOTHING, because an old book of fairy tales says so.
That, is ridiculous to the 10th degree. ESPECIALLY since we have hundreds of old books with different absurd stories on their god or gods creating the universe too.
If you can't see that ancient men invented these stories and books then you can't learn anything.
What nonsense about the areas of knowledge we have. We trust scientists because we know the system is not easily corrupted and they establish facts that we could not possible know ourselves.
Collins is a detriment to medical research.. For instance, he considers embryos created through SCNT to be distinct from those formed through the union of sperm and egg because the former are “not part of God’s plan to create a human individual” while “the latter is very much part of God’s plan, carried out through the millennia by our own species and many others” (Collins, 2006, p. 256) There is little to be gained in a serious discussion of bioethics by talking about “God’s plan.” Sam Harris
@daNDayati Darwin theorized quite often about God's plan. It was in fact essential to his theory of evolution - an attempt to distance God from the bloodiness of nature. Check the New Atlantis online. "Darwin's World of Pain and Wonder."
@mattcarolan Darwin was also born into time when the academic world was literally driven by a religious paradigm.(he himself was slated to be a parson).. . Darwin's trying to square nature's "bloodiness" (best described as indifference) is irrelevant.. god or gods or the divine has been in the mind of humanity since its beginnings.. and always less so with the advent of reason..
As a scientist he was doing great until Dr. Collins leaped into the the myth of Devolution. More faith is needed to plausibly believe in the myth of Devolution than in a path of Creation where each was created in his kind.
Now matter how hard Collins tries to scientifically proove that a listening, understanding, and caring god exists, it will always go back to faith. Religion and the idea of god gets no more complicated than that. How is that so hard to understand?
wearyourseatbelt 4 weeks ago
How about we stop all this nonsense about a "natural world" and a "spiritual world" and just talk about "the world." Rephrase Collins' words at 9:00 under those terms and you get: "Science is THE WAY to search for truth about THE WORLD." Period. As far as a "spiritual world" is concerned, who has access to such things? And those who have claimed they have access, how? And why no one else? Faith is of no merit---it's just believing to believe to believe....
YountFilm 4 weeks ago
Where Collins gets it wrong is in claiming that the "hunger for something outside of ourselves" is a "universal" thing. He may speak for himself, but examples of people without that "hunger" do exist -- myself among them. Calling it "universal" is a trick many ideologues like C.S. Lewis love playing. "See? It's universal! So if you don't feel it, you're pushing it away!" No.
YountFilm 4 weeks ago 3
When we consider that evolution led to the development of mammals, then to the ancestors of apes, then to humans, and humans developed the ability to utilize language, we can conclude that evolution INDEED produced morality, for it is through language that we are able to discuss what one "should" or "should not" do. That example of the "drowning enemy" appeals to moral instincts that are habituated into people through upbringing.
YountFilm 4 weeks ago
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@chirectomy "Delusion" means believing in a reality that DOES NOT EXIST. The book wouldn't sell nearly as well if it was called "The Unproven God," nor is that Dawkins' public position. He often asserts there is no God, which is metaphysical naturalism, a philosophical position, not a scientific one. What you describe in your first sentence is called "methodological naturalism" and because Dawkins invokes it doesn't mean he follows it consistently.
mattcarolan 1 month ago
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mattcarolan 1 month ago
YES!!! It is so wacko to say I know there is no Santa Claus.
Santa Claus may well exist outside our circle of knowledge, just like Allah, Buddah and the Easter Bunny.
OR, we could use our brain, and look at the world's religions and evaluate that religions are conjured by man and these myths are almost certainly not true.
Futureplanet 2 months ago
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@Futureplanet Man can engineer molecules! It shows how it takes INTELLIGENCE in controlled laboratory conditions to mimic, manipulate, plagiarize a cell's Design! Scientists COPY genetic sequences!! They dont create anything!!
Its all Man made Synthetic chemistry! and it has nothing to do with the origin of life!! Homochirality is a disaster for any sort of naturalistic origins! There is no demonstrated source for such non-racemic mixture of sugars in any plausible pre-biotic environment!
5tonyvvvv 1 month ago
@Futureplanet How many atheists conducted experiments showing DNA assembling it self? Also like collins says how do you get something from NOTHING!!! If the Big bang happened where did the matter and energy come from???
5tonyvvvv 1 month ago
@5tonyvvvv Don't know how something happens therefore there must be a god, seems like a logical conclusion...
crosbyj25 1 month ago
@crosbyj25 Yep so time natural chance processes must have done it right! Oh and something came from NOTHING! You must be smarter then Francis collins! Atheists are the most stubborn moronic people! You people make me Laugh!! HAHAAHAH!!
5tonyvvvv 1 month ago
@5tonyvvvv Well scientist propose that as a theory not a fact, we honestly don't know but it's ok not to know isn't it? There's plenty of shit we've found out that we didn't previously know and your religion insists on moving the goal posts every time we do so.
crosbyj25 1 month ago
@5tonyvvvv This is a classic argument from ignorance.
2000 BC. Where does lightening come from (if not from Thor)?
2000 AD. Where does matter and energy come from (if not God)?
Find a question that has no answer, and then insert god. Classic argument from ignorance. Not knowing any question, including universe, dark matter, quantum, etc. does NOT equal God.
Get serious. And stopping argueming to ignorance as an answer. It's really immature.
Futureplanet 1 month ago
@Futureplanet Tell it to Francis collins you know more then him right! Learn Homochirality! So the universe created it self! Pathetic Sad atheists!
5tonyvvvv 1 month ago
@5tonyvvvv I see, so you've changed from an argument for ignorance (which Collins uses) and changed it to an argument from Authority
Again completly immature. The debating skills of a 5th grader. Collins is no authority on religion, and just like every preacher, he has his own take on it.
Just more obvious proof of the man-made religions.
You need to learn that Atheism is not cosmology, and does NOT say anything about the universe creating itself. It's pathetic you try to connect the 2.
Futureplanet 1 month ago
@Futureplanet It is truly and utterly ridiculous to say time chance natural processes produced this universe, all crammed into an Atom! But I know You know more then Francis collins!
5tonyvvvv 1 month ago
@5tonyvvvv You idiot. Francis Collins works with Biology, not Cosmology. He knows nothing about the production of the universe, and humans don't know everything. Get over your arguement from ignorance. Are you telling me, as soon as we learn the processes of the universe (if ever) then that PROVES god doesn't exist? No it doesn't and an answer to any question is irrelevant to whether your mythology and religion is true or not.
Get over your ignorance of cosmology already will you?
Futureplanet 1 month ago
@Futureplanet You must be calling collins an idiot as well! You are the MORON that just will never except the possibility a Creator!! The universe created its self, and DNA and homochirality organized its self!
5tonyvvvv 1 month ago
@5tonyvvvv I'm not calling Collins an Idiot, and proves you are one for not being able to comprehend my point. Yes, yes. The big invisible man did everything, from nothing. And the tooth fairy has a lovely pink dress. Now go and get yourself another drink of cool-aid and keep spouting your arguments from Ignorance and Authority. It WILL work on other ignorant douches.
Futureplanet 1 month ago
@Futureplanet Like I said sir, You are calling Francis collins an IDIOT! He believes the universe was created! I dont agree with him on everything! But he believes in a creator! Collins has studied all fields of science! from biochemistry to physics! He is the the head of the human genome project he is no fool and he believes the Cosmos was CREATED!
5tonyvvvv 1 month ago
@5tonyvvvv Incorrect. Disagreeing with Francis's arguement to ignorance on morals, is hardly calling him an idiot. I did no such thing.
Francis's belief has nothing to do with biochemistry. His rationale comes from not being able to console morals into biochemistry, which is an argument to ignorance.
Just because Francis Collins knows some chemsitry, does not make him an authority on god. As I already said, you are now appealing to Authority. I could do that to, but it's a cheat shot.
Futureplanet 1 month ago
@Futureplanet Keep rambling! Its takes Faith on both sides MORON!!
5tonyvvvv 1 month ago
@Futureplanet Religious belief is intuitive, he is not making an argument at all. His rationale? He had an epiphany in the woods, that's not a rationale. If you think all that there is to humans is logic and reason, I'm sorry to say that you're incorrect. Biochemistry is just another paradigm of understanding, he does not need the authority of biochemistry to make a logical conclusion. Even Hawkins has conceded that there is something outside of the Universe that is pumping gravity into it.
12Ominous 1 month ago
@12Ominous How does any of that equate to the bible being non-fiction? Answer? IT DOESN'T. I was explaining to 5stonyvvvv about his/her arguements to authority and ignorance. A concept they clearly did not understand.
Futureplanet 1 month ago
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12Ominous 1 month ago
@Futureplanet I doubt you will meet anyone in your whole life with the credentials of collins! I believe in God and so does Collins!! So we must both be idiots then..
5tonyvvvv 1 month ago
@Futureplanet He left atheism! why dont you!
5tonyvvvv 1 month ago
@Futureplanet The fine-tuning of the universe proves a Creator! Atoms,Elements and matter always existed, IMPOSSIBLE! Who set this into motion? from where? Something outside of time space and matter! GOD!!!
5tonyvvvv 1 month ago
@5tonyvvvv God always existed, IMPOSSIBILE! "Who" set this into motion? Is an absurd question, because you are supposing the answer to the universe is a "who".
"Who" just made the last bolt of lightening? Thor? God?
"Who" made a flower open up yesterday morning?
These are silly questions, and you are asking them, because you have an answer in mind. Your appeal to credulity (the universe is SOOO amazing it PROVES god), is another falicy.
You clearly have no idea.
Futureplanet 1 month ago
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@Futureplanet There are 2 kinds of atheists - one is an honest sincere seeker of TRUTH, while the other is often a bitter angry individual who seeks only to refute the existence of God. Antony flew and Collins followed logic, viewed all the evidence with no prejudice! The finely tuned universe and The INFORMATION inside proteins, Homochirality and DNA is what changed them!! But let me guess you know more then them right!
5tonyvvvv 1 month ago
@5tonyvvvv It is truly and utterly ridiculous to say an invisible magic man in the sky made the universe FROM NOTHING, because an old book of fairy tales says so.
That, is ridiculous to the 10th degree. ESPECIALLY since we have hundreds of old books with different absurd stories on their god or gods creating the universe too.
If you can't see that ancient men invented these stories and books then you can't learn anything.
Futureplanet 1 month ago
Consider this evidence:
1. The world has thousands of religions, which means:
2. Humans invent religions
3. Millions of humans believe and follow these invented religions.
Futureplanet 2 months ago
Fascinating how people can fall in the delusions of religion.
Futureplanet 2 months ago
What nonsense about the areas of knowledge we have. We trust scientists because we know the system is not easily corrupted and they establish facts that we could not possible know ourselves.
nbm953 2 months ago
@chirectomy
Seems like more than that these days. The kind of atheism that dawkin's likes to preach is definitely a religion called scientism.
aloh86 3 months ago
Collins is a detriment to medical research.. For instance, he considers embryos created through SCNT to be distinct from those formed through the union of sperm and egg because the former are “not part of God’s plan to create a human individual” while “the latter is very much part of God’s plan, carried out through the millennia by our own species and many others” (Collins, 2006, p. 256) There is little to be gained in a serious discussion of bioethics by talking about “God’s plan.” Sam Harris
daNDayati 3 months ago
@daNDayati Darwin theorized quite often about God's plan. It was in fact essential to his theory of evolution - an attempt to distance God from the bloodiness of nature. Check the New Atlantis online. "Darwin's World of Pain and Wonder."
mattcarolan 1 month ago
@mattcarolan Darwin was also born into time when the academic world was literally driven by a religious paradigm.(he himself was slated to be a parson).. . Darwin's trying to square nature's "bloodiness" (best described as indifference) is irrelevant.. god or gods or the divine has been in the mind of humanity since its beginnings.. and always less so with the advent of reason..
daNDayati 1 month ago
@daNDayati The "advent of reason?" What are you talking about? Did that start after Darwin? I thought it began with the Pre-Socratics.
mattcarolan 1 month ago
@mattcarolan just slightly after... Socrates [469 – 399 BCE],, - Epicurus [341–270 BCE]
daNDayati 1 month ago
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chuck3668831 3 months ago
Just finished reading his book! Good on Dr. Collins!
TheAmericanforJesus 8 months ago 2
As a scientist he was doing great until Dr. Collins leaped into the the myth of Devolution. More faith is needed to plausibly believe in the myth of Devolution than in a path of Creation where each was created in his kind.
InnkeeperCody 9 months ago
@InnkeeperCody Try to be more open minded.
ClamCrunchy 9 months ago
@InnkeeperCody What the hell are you talking about?
DraconionDevil 2 months ago
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Brilliant, Dr. Francis S. Collins, hehehe....and James Watson was the one who looked like a whacko, hahaha!:-D
engezbentmh86 1 year ago
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engezbentmh86 1 year ago