I'll bring it up to my hall owner and advocate for the shot!!!!
Dr. Dave thanks for the healthy debate I've just read. I agree but it is a tough sale to most.
If you speak with Jewett and he speaks with Byrne, tell him I said thanks. I would love to meet that guy, or at least write him and thank him for his wisdom!
The intended ball and pocket must be obvious or declared (e.g., with bank, combination, or carom shots). However, it doesn't matter how the declared ball gets to the declared pocket. You don't need to declare what the ball does on the way to the pocket.
in this case it is hard to determine. Does the added mass of two frozen balls change the variables of follow through e.g. rate of contact time during natural follow through?
The rules clearly allow hitting into a frozen shot with a normal stroke. If somebody calls a foul on a shot like this, he or she is violating the rules.
Ok...you're right, we're not covering any new ground. Please ask your knowledgeable pool friends to view the video AND READ THE COMMENTS, then post an opinion. I think you'll be suprised with your friends' responses.
Below is the beginning of Bob Jewett's reply. Bob is one of the main authors of the rules. The remainder of the message follows, in multiple parts.
"First, 2.20 is not a rule. It is a guideline for clueless referees who because of lack of experience cannot tell from the action of the cue ball whether the shot was a foul or not. Sad but true.
It is possible to play a legal shot on a close ball and get the cue ball to follow the length of the table. It is also possible to have less than a half-ball of penetration into the close object ball and be absolutely certain that a foul occurred.
2.20 will not appear in the revised WPA/BCA World Standardized Rules.
This is a totally illegal double-hit. See BCA General Rules of Pool 2.20 JUDGING DOUBLE HITS. When the cue ball is frozen to the object ball, it is a double hit if the cue ball travels through the object ball more than 1/2 a ball width.
I think Rule 3.23 supports my contention, Dr. Dave. 3.23 states "if the cue stick is in contact with the cue ball when or after the cue ball contacts an object ball, the shot is a foul. (See Rule 2.20 for judging this kind of shot.)" 2.20 states that it's a double hit if the cue travels through the object ball more than 1/2 a ball width.
Your cue ball traveled several feet through the object ball.
Here is the key sentence in 3.23 that pertains to this shot:
"If the cue ball is touching the required object ball prior to the shot, the player may shoot toward it, providing that any normal stroke is employed."
Again, the shot demonstrated is not a foul. If you still don't believe me, ask any certified referee, or any experienced tournament player.
You're right that IS the key sentence. But the key question is "How you do know if a normal stroke was employed?" ANSWER: Rule 2.20. Neither of your responses addressed the application of Rule 2.20. Can you state that your shot complied with 2.20? Of course not. It's a foul, Doc.
Again, per 3.23, as long as the CB is frozen to the OB, you are allowed to stroke towards the OB. In other words, the cited sentence in Rule 3.23 supersedes Rule 2.20.
Now, if there is gap between the CB and OB (i.e., the balls are not frozen), then the shot demonstrated would be a foul, because it would result in a double hit.
No sir. That's why the pros shoot the shot with a heavily elevated stroke. The stroke is still "toward the object ball". But it's legal because it doesn't move the cue ball forward more than 1/2 a ball width.
Your stroke also toward the object ball. But it's illegal because it moves the cue ball more than 1/2 a ball width. 3.23 clearly allows forward strokes. 2.20 clearly defines which forward strokes are legal and which are not.
Respectfully, you should be the one asking a tournament ref. How 'bout this. We each put $100 in escrow and you find a way to contact Steve Tipton for a ruling. Winner takes the pot.
I'm not interested in a wager. Thanks for the offer though.
In the video, there seems to be a clicking sound which might indicate the balls were not frozen. If that is the case, the shot would be a foul.
In a refereed tournament, the referee would check the balls to determine if they are frozen or not. If they are frozen, the demonstrated shot would be allowed. If there is a gap, the shot would be ruled a foul.
Dave, you gotta read 2.20...please.... word for word..without prejudice. As you can see, 2.20 applies to ALL situations when the cue ball and object ball are less than the width of a cube of chalk apart. THAT INCLUDES FROZEN BALLS. Frozen balls are clearly less than a chalk cube apart.
In further support, you NEVER see the shot you made in a televised match....never.....ever....not once. Even though the shot comes up at least once in virtually every match. What you do see is the pros shooting highly elevated stoke, much like a modified jump stroke. The obvious reason for doing that is so the cue ball won't travel forward more than 1/2 a ball width.
Anyways...your videos are excellent and I thank you for them. Keep 'em comin' Jim
Actually, you rarely see this sort of shot in top tournaments because the pros are excellent with cue ball control, and they almost never leave the cue ball parked next to an object ball.
Thank you for the nice comments on my videos. Many more can be found on my billiards website.
I don't think anything I write at this point can change your mind. Are there any people in your area you can talk to concerning this?
I communicate regularly with one of the lead guys who writes the rules. I also know several top players and several certified referees. I can assure you that they all agree with my position.
why not just play a real sport
Roksonixx 7 months ago
@Roksonixx
Are you implying pool is a sport?
DrDaveBilliards 7 months ago
@DrDaveBilliards Ok then it's not a sport it's just 2 guys playing with each others balls
Roksonixx 7 months ago
@Roksonixx
Actually, that's a foul. :)
DrDaveBilliards 7 months ago
I'll bring it up to my hall owner and advocate for the shot!!!!
Dr. Dave thanks for the healthy debate I've just read. I agree but it is a tough sale to most.
If you speak with Jewett and he speaks with Byrne, tell him I said thanks. I would love to meet that guy, or at least write him and thank him for his wisdom!
cyruseven 4 years ago
It might be a tough sell, but it's the rules.
I personally think the shot should be illegal, but I believe in following the official rules.
Dr. Dave
DrDaveBilliards 4 years ago
i just read a very long and well mannered debate i believe.
it is very interesting to know the proper rules of 8ball pool.
i have one question though, is it true that you have to declear every shot you make. ie no "lucky balls"
one of my friend said its proper rules, but many others disagree
Rand0mAsian 2 years ago
The intended ball and pocket must be obvious or declared (e.g., with bank, combination, or carom shots). However, it doesn't matter how the declared ball gets to the declared pocket. You don't need to declare what the ball does on the way to the pocket.
Dr. Dave
DrDaveBilliards 2 years ago
ohk yeah. thats the why i've been playing by, thanks for confirming it.
Rand0mAsian 2 years ago
You're welcome.
DrDaveBilliards 2 years ago
in this case it is hard to determine. Does the added mass of two frozen balls change the variables of follow through e.g. rate of contact time during natural follow through?
continued...
cyruseven 4 years ago
Is there truly sustained contact or do both travel forward at the same rate, is there one one contact?
Speed and line of travel relative to contact points usually is a fair indicator of a foul...
continued...
cyruseven 4 years ago
Get Robert Byrne on the horn; oh wait Jewett was his adviser, so you've covered that already.
Frozen seems to indicate hit through, but foul is called all the time, in all instances without either a descending blow or a glancing blow.
Sustained contact, not necessarily a double hit is the culprit here! The question is...
continued...
cyruseven 4 years ago
The rules clearly allow hitting into a frozen shot with a normal stroke. If somebody calls a foul on a shot like this, he or she is violating the rules.
Dr. Dave
DrDaveBilliards 4 years ago
ambiguity within linguists and syntax of the rules of the game have led to the death of many men in pool rooms.
continued...
cyruseven 4 years ago
Ok...you're right, we're not covering any new ground. Please ask your knowledgeable pool friends to view the video AND READ THE COMMENTS, then post an opinion. I think you'll be suprised with your friends' responses.
cooljazzhd 4 years ago
Below is the beginning of Bob Jewett's reply. Bob is one of the main authors of the rules. The remainder of the message follows, in multiple parts.
"First, 2.20 is not a rule. It is a guideline for clueless referees who because of lack of experience cannot tell from the action of the cue ball whether the shot was a foul or not. Sad but true.
... (continued)
DrDaveBilliards 4 years ago
... continuation
It is possible to play a legal shot on a close ball and get the cue ball to follow the length of the table. It is also possible to have less than a half-ball of penetration into the close object ball and be absolutely certain that a foul occurred.
2.20 will not appear in the revised WPA/BCA World Standardized Rules.
... (continued)
DrDaveBilliards 4 years ago
... (continuation)
At pool, if the cue ball is frozen to the object ball, you are permitted to shoot any normal stroke in the direction of the object ball."
I hope that helps convince you,
Dr. Dave
DrDaveBilliards 4 years ago
Great debate, Dr. Dave. Thank you for arguing in a professional and non-personal manner....as I hope I have done.
cooljazzhd 4 years ago
This is a totally illegal double-hit. See BCA General Rules of Pool 2.20 JUDGING DOUBLE HITS. When the cue ball is frozen to the object ball, it is a double hit if the cue ball travels through the object ball more than 1/2 a ball width.
cooljazzhd 4 years ago
You are incorrect. This shot is not a foul. See rule 3.23.
Dr. Dave
DrDaveBilliards 4 years ago
I think Rule 3.23 supports my contention, Dr. Dave. 3.23 states "if the cue stick is in contact with the cue ball when or after the cue ball contacts an object ball, the shot is a foul. (See Rule 2.20 for judging this kind of shot.)" 2.20 states that it's a double hit if the cue travels through the object ball more than 1/2 a ball width.
Your cue ball traveled several feet through the object ball.
CONCLUSION: It's a foul.
cooljazzhd 4 years ago
Here is the key sentence in 3.23 that pertains to this shot:
"If the cue ball is touching the required object ball prior to the shot, the player may shoot toward it, providing that any normal stroke is employed."
Again, the shot demonstrated is not a foul. If you still don't believe me, ask any certified referee, or any experienced tournament player.
Regards,
Dr. Dave
DrDaveBilliards 4 years ago
You're right that IS the key sentence. But the key question is "How you do know if a normal stroke was employed?" ANSWER: Rule 2.20. Neither of your responses addressed the application of Rule 2.20. Can you state that your shot complied with 2.20? Of course not. It's a foul, Doc.
cooljazzhd 4 years ago
Again, per 3.23, as long as the CB is frozen to the OB, you are allowed to stroke towards the OB. In other words, the cited sentence in Rule 3.23 supersedes Rule 2.20.
Now, if there is gap between the CB and OB (i.e., the balls are not frozen), then the shot demonstrated would be a foul, because it would result in a double hit.
Regards,
Dr. Dave
DrDaveBilliards 4 years ago
No sir. That's why the pros shoot the shot with a heavily elevated stroke. The stroke is still "toward the object ball". But it's legal because it doesn't move the cue ball forward more than 1/2 a ball width.
Your stroke also toward the object ball. But it's illegal because it moves the cue ball more than 1/2 a ball width. 3.23 clearly allows forward strokes. 2.20 clearly defines which forward strokes are legal and which are not.
cooljazzhd 4 years ago
Respectfully, you should be the one asking a tournament ref. How 'bout this. We each put $100 in escrow and you find a way to contact Steve Tipton for a ruling. Winner takes the pot.
cooljazzhd 4 years ago
I'm not interested in a wager. Thanks for the offer though.
In the video, there seems to be a clicking sound which might indicate the balls were not frozen. If that is the case, the shot would be a foul.
In a refereed tournament, the referee would check the balls to determine if they are frozen or not. If they are frozen, the demonstrated shot would be allowed. If there is a gap, the shot would be ruled a foul.
Regards,
Dr. Dave
DrDaveBilliards 4 years ago
Dave, you gotta read 2.20...please.... word for word..without prejudice. As you can see, 2.20 applies to ALL situations when the cue ball and object ball are less than the width of a cube of chalk apart. THAT INCLUDES FROZEN BALLS. Frozen balls are clearly less than a chalk cube apart.
cooljazzhd 4 years ago
In further support, you NEVER see the shot you made in a televised match....never.....ever....not once. Even though the shot comes up at least once in virtually every match. What you do see is the pros shooting highly elevated stoke, much like a modified jump stroke. The obvious reason for doing that is so the cue ball won't travel forward more than 1/2 a ball width.
Anyways...your videos are excellent and I thank you for them. Keep 'em comin' Jim
cooljazzhd 4 years ago
Actually, you rarely see this sort of shot in top tournaments because the pros are excellent with cue ball control, and they almost never leave the cue ball parked next to an object ball.
Thank you for the nice comments on my videos. Many more can be found on my billiards website.
Regards,
Dr. Dave
DrDaveBilliards 4 years ago
That's not why. Everybody makes mistakes even the pros. And occasionally, though rarely, they screw up and get frozen to the object ball.
The reason they never shoot the shot in your video is because THEY KNOW IT'S ILLEGAL!!
cooljazzhd 4 years ago
I don't think anything I write at this point can change your mind. Are there any people in your area you can talk to concerning this?
I communicate regularly with one of the lead guys who writes the rules. I also know several top players and several certified referees. I can assure you that they all agree with my position.
I don't think I have anything else to add.
Regards,
Dr. Dave
DrDaveBilliards 4 years ago
yea i thought that was a rule....
thisokyet 4 years ago
when the cue is frozen to a ball aren't the rules to play away from that ball?
GAmarnani 5 years ago
... not in standard rules, but some leagues might have special rules like this.
DrDaveBilliards 5 years ago