@IAm1337Tube THE TRINITARIAN TREATY OF 1822: "In the name of the Most Holy and Indivisible Trinity." We are now left with the indisputable fact that almost every one of the original 13 states required a belief in God in order to hold office. If this were founded a secular nation that would never have been considered on any level.
It's sad that the atheists in this country have to foce their version of history on us due to the fact that are so grandly insecure with the facts.
@IAm1337Tube The phrase in question does not appear in the Arabic version The phrase was understood to mean that the US did not have officially hostile relations with nations which were officially Muslim. The treaty was renegotiated a few years later. The phrase was indisputably NOT a part of the subsequent treaty.
Paris peace treaty: In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.
It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts . . .
@IAm1337Tube the US was founded on Christian Beliefs and the rights of a few, seculars, have been shoved down our throats against the intent of the founding fathers. Your quote was NOT from a founding father. If you would like to go tit for tat with the evil quote thing there are far more stated by seculars. We could use the soviet union alone where 60 million were killed in order to maintain a secular state.
For years have been asking Christians who claim that America was founded upon "Christian Principles" to name even one of these so-called mysterious "Principles". In all fairness and honesty, these phantom "Principles" must be unique or specific to Christianity. Not a single person has yet to come up with any of these alleged "Principles".
Hitler hated atheists and aligned himself with the Protestant and Catholic churches of Germany. He was a Roman Catholic who claimed that the Aryan race was the will of God, and believe that the earth was created by God. "I swear by God, this holy oath, to the Führer of the German Reich and people. Adolf Hitler..." was an oath that Nazi soldiers took. — The More You Know!
@Draygin2004 pray to zuse, he is the one true lord. lol. its sad that you cant answer that simple question. what distinguishes christianity from a cult?
“The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.” – John Adams
“The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.”
- John Adams
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
“The United States in Congress assembled … recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States … a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools.”
“Congress passed this resolution: “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”
Hey, it is true that the American colonies were founded by christian sects who in many cases wanted to establish a "new jerusalem". So McCain is right, provided we don't interpret his words as the "US sovreign nation was founded on christian principles by the founding fathers". That would be false.
I think its very dangerous to have our nation be an official "christian nation" I would be hated for not believing, my friends in other religions will be hated/discriminated, Gays will be hated, man the list goes ON AND ON..
Hitler coined the phrase "Big Lie" in 'Mein Kampf' to educate the primitive masses how the judeo-criminals rule over them thru psychological operations. The primitive masses fail to comprehend inside their simplistic minds how any people could be so wicked to carry out fraud on the massive scale which is how jewish absurdities such as the "Torah" and? the "Holocaust" become accepted as truthful over time thru repetition. Perhaps not even 100,000 jewish deaths resulted from WW2.
I put my faith in Christ Jesus and the new Testament. I'm NO JUDEOchristian. I would be glad to be called a CHRISTIAN Jesus is the promised seed of Abraham as GALATIANS tells us GALATIANS says the seed is singular, as in one, as in CHRIST...not plural. My faith is in the one true God. GALATIANS says the children of Abraham are those who have faith in Christ and that the Jerusalem below is in bondage but the Jerusamen above is free. I'm free in Christ Jesus and NOT a JUDEOchristian
@cbasallie yahweh (the jewish god) is your god! he is the father in "father, son, and holly spirit", thus the judeo-christians how do you people believe in this stuff when you know nothing about it? jesus and yahweh are one in the same according to the christian myth in which you believe. people who actually read the bible are called atheists. lol.
John Mccain says right or not ... in my idia .. Because Christian religion respect all human kinds not likes other ... In the shelter of Christianity all nations can be fruitful” even if you see Hinduism sees India … And Islam see Arabia you can live, eat there but they never give you nationality or their girls to live there... Now you tell. Islamic law is very strict it will be never equal with Christianity... the peace of humanity …. christianity ....
I can't believe the people who think of themselves as "patriotic" while trying to implement Christianity into our laws. I wonder how they feel about Muslims who force Sharia law on the people... Oh, right, they probably want to bomb them.
i think this christian founding myth exists because evangelicals need it as a reason to push their beliefs and religious laws onto people and to have it made as law. eg. gay marriage, they don't want this legal, but really have no reason to stop it except for religious reasons, so this is why they need to convince people americas laws are based on their religion.
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" Article 11, Treaty With Tripoli, 1796.....founding fathers were still Alive....so sad people think we're a christian nation
liberalviewer, i would not like to invoke any anger from your viewers or yourself, i would simply like to remark on one of the questions you asked at the end of this video. you said "reaching out to those of other faiths or no faith at all?" the problem with that last part is that atheism is in reality a "faith" to even have an opinion on what is beyond life, faith is required. you have faith that there is no god, since you cannot disprove the existence of god, just as christians cannot prove it
@MrVincentR I think you're confusing faith with not seeing the point in something. I don't see the point in believing that there is a god or an afterlife so I don't believe it. It's not a matter of "faith" to me or anyone else who calls themself an atheist to believe what we believe, it's simply a matter of not seeing why we should believe. You are right that I cannot disprove the existence of god but the burden of proof lies on the people making the claims, not those cynical of the claims.
@elsparx you make a good argument, and i thank you for not being hostile. to comment on what you said about the burden of proof being of those making the claims. what you say is partly true, since they bring up the notion of there being a god, it requires faith to even have an opinion of such a topic. say i tell you i have an autographed baseball at home that is very valuable. (just an example) now you can believe that i do, or that i don't, but neither inference is based on fact, hence faith
@MrVincentR actually faith comes from believing without evidence, cant really logically ascribe it to an agnostic or atheist viewpoint. Like saying you cant disprove a invisible pink unicorn named Fred lives in the corner of my bedroom, and that i have "faith" that such an insane belief isn't real.
@wb8594 if you cannot prove or disprove something, it requires faith to BELIEVE it either way. you don't know for sure that there is no god. yes it is highly unlikely, but such a notion cannot be dismissed because you simply cannot know for sure. therefore faith is required to fill in the gap of not knowing
@MrVincentR I have no "faith" in anything, I only have knowledge and beliefs based on provable facts, logical conclusions or deductive reasoning. As such faith in the supernatural (i.e. religions and religious faith) is regarded by me as man-made fantasy and fiction and basically all around primitive, childish and a waste of time.
@wb8594 it's so funny how you say you have faith in nothing yet right after you say you have "beliefs" that is faith. it is based on what you can prove, but still, it requires your will to sustain it. you have faith that there is no god. you cannot prove there isn't, so you BELIVE that there isn't. i understand your inferense is based on contradictions between science and the bible, but it is a leap of faith on your part. you believe something that you cannot prove, that god does not exist.
@MrVincentR Do you understand how proof works? If you tell me that you can lift 2,000 pounds, it isn't up to me to prove you can't, it's up to you to prove you can. The burden of proof is always on the person making the positive (there is) claim. I don't have to prove I didn't rob the bank, the police have to prove I did.
@BiffWhitebread13 why can't you people wrap your head around this simple concept? you are just as ignorant in saying there is no god than others are in saying there is a god. you cannot disprove their claim, yes it is true that they cannot prove it, but something like god is something that no one can say FOR SURE. therefore if you BELIEVE that there is no god then there you go. faith.
@MrVincentR I didn't say I know for sure there is no god--I'm saying I've never seen any reliable evidence for it--and the burden of proof still lies with you. I'm not claiming there is no god--get it? I don't have to prove it. You are claiming there is a god, so prove it or shut up. Do they have any logic or debating classes at your school? Saying I believe there is no god is like saying my hobby is not collecting stamps. Pwned yet again. Yawn.
@BiffWhitebread13 first of all, i never said anything about myself believing in god. all i am saying is that ATHEISM IS THE BELIEF THAT THERE IS NO GOD. to even have an opinion on the subject you have to fill the gap that is left by evidence with faith. i personally believe that there is no god, but i will not say that there is no god because i know that no matter how unlikely and improbable it is, i cannot know for certain without faith. and neither can you. it's not my fault you're retarded
@MrVincentR Atheism is the intellectual position that there is no reason to believe in god. Belief can arise from a consideration of the facts or the acceptance of an idea in the absence of evidence (Faith) You seem to be confusing faith will belief based on a rational consideration of evidence.
@estragon9 i'm not confused at all. i do not believe in god. and you are right, that belief is based on a genuine lack of evidence on the subject. but that is still a BELIEF. one that requires faith. if i say that i have a baseball autographed by babe ruth at my house, you can choose to believe that i do in fact have one, or choose to believe that it is very unlikely and i do not have one. if you had no faith, you wouldn't care either way and not think about it again.
@MrVincentR You have to acknowledge that belief and non belief can be quite different. Let's take for example, a god you have never heard of. Some people might have a deep abiding belief in this deity while you have complete and utter non belief based on ignorance. Now let's say I tell you the name of the god. That doesn't change things much does it? Your non-belief in this obscure god is not on par with believers. Belief is religious and faith based. Non-belief is not.
@estragon9 what about the belief that nothing happens after death? that isn't non belief at all. sure you are in disbelief about the existence of a heaven or hell but it isn't stopping there, it is going so far as to say that nothing happens when you die. based on zero evidence, it is going from disbelief to the belief that we simply slip away into nothing. the god argument is no different. it is not just disbelief, if it were, then there wouldn't be certainty in the claim that there is no god.
@MrVincentR So let's discuss. What evidence is there that consciousness survives the death of the brain. I agree it is wrong to say "nothing happens when you die". However, a scientific understanding of consciousness is that it is a manifestation of the functions of the brain. We can show that the brain ceases to function after death. Can we say there is no evidence that would lead us to lead us to believe that anything happens after death.
@estragon9 well the way view the subject of life after death (not at all insinuating that i'm correct just that i personally think) is the same way that energy works. say your soul, or spirit, or life force, or even just the character created by the functioning of the brain is like energy. energy cannot be destroyed or created, only transfered or redirected. this theory personally is comforting to me. it may be wrong. but no one knows.
@MrVincentR I agree that reason can not give us absolute knowledge. There is always uncertainty. However, there are different degrees of uncertainty. We can have a high degree of certainty (thought not absolute) in rejecting ideas that are not consistent, or fly in the face of the preponderance of evidence. We can have high degrees of certainty in accepting well established ideas like electro-magnetic theory (although we acknowledge that it might break down under extreme conditions).
@estragon9 there are different degrees, religion is one of the more extreme degrees. atheism though seems to be an excusing of anything existing outside of range of sight or direct contact with. and i would think that those who are some of the most avid fans of science would be more open to possibility. saying things like it is unlikely rather than it is not.
@MrVincentR The internet is an especially polarizing element in our society. It's difficult to resist letting strong language fly when most communication is anonymous. (not that this doesn't also have it's plus side). Having said that most atheist's I know are willing to accept indirect evidence. Quantum mechanics, E&M, Evolution are examples. I would say everyone, not just Atheist should temper their language by using superlatives less frequently.
@estragon9 and that is the fine line between having faith and not having faith. to say for curtain is to assume and to have faith, to admit that you don't know but have an idea about the subject is not having faith.
@MrVincentR So if I claim there are little purple people living under the surface of venus then you would be considered ignorant in saying there are no little purple people? You can't prove the purple people don't exist. It's a matter of faith that you don't believe. Of course, that is silly. If I make an assertion then the burden of proof lies with me. You don't have to prove it not true. You would have to prove 5000 other gods don't exist. No one expects that.
@estragon9 this is basic philosophy. it's not my fault that you can't understand it. if you even have an opinion about the subject of god or the afterlife then you have faith that what you believe is true, even if you think that there is nothing after death and there is no god, you are just as right in what you think as anyone else. the only way to not have faith is to either not care or admit that you don't know. because you know just as much as everyone else. NOTHING
@MrVincentR I think it is you that has a basic misunderstanding of philosophy. You seem to be implying that you must be able to disprove A before you can rationally believe A is not true. You must therefore believe everything until proven false. I think the opposite is true. We believe in things because we have evidence to do so. A nihilist is someone you thinks you can't know anything. That's not the same as someone who does does not believe it something that there is no evidence for.
@estragon9 you choose to believe the opposite. that there is no god. but you don't know, no matter what this inference is based on you still cannot know for sure if there is no god. so faith must fill the gap that is left by you not knowing. atheism is the BELIEF that there is no god. so why keep denouncing faith? you believe something that you do not know for sure. that is what faith is. the only way to not have faith is to have no opinion on the subject.
I'm not saying it has anything to do with America being a Christian nation, but why does the declaration of independence say "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator" and why do the united states print "In God We Trust" on their money?
@hhfleury well I can tell you that "in God we trust" on American money is there because the Christian right hijacked our national motto (previously E Pluribus Unum) as well as the pledge of allegiance (previously didn't have the phrase "under god" in it) back in the 1950's during the Communist Red Scare as a way to identify ourselves as different from the officially atheist state of former USSR.
I watched this vid a few days ago and saw the "not a Christian nation" side get pwned rather badly (mostly due to the person doing the arguing being unprepared):
I watched this vid a few days ago and saw the "not a Christian nation" side get pwned rather badly (mostly due to the person doing the arguing being unprepared):
Intentional or not this is how it was. The founding fathers for the most part were Christians. I know there were some deists but the point is that the laws and customs were borrowed from their former European laws and customs which themselves were indoctrinated in Christianity. The only difference was that our for founding fathers took up the practice of Freemasonry with it's then existing 13 states. These states then being ruled by a Christian majority implemented those principles.
Do the lies ever stop with you guys? This "LiberalViewer" just seems to spurt them out left and right. Does he ever stop to think geez maybe there is a reason we used to have The Ten Commandments hanging in our court rooms and schools or 90% of our laws were practically copied from Leviticus. Guys a liar simple as that and I'll bet he'll delete my comment again.
English common law existed prior to the knowlege of Christ of those people. So to what God were the American founders referring when they claimed that "all men posses inalienable rights endowed to them by the Creator".
To which Creator were they referring? and
If taken from ancient English to which Creator were the early English referring?
Methinks the founders were basing their rights upon their Christian God given doctrine.
That's why they put that in the Constitution, right? Oh, wait, that's in the Declaration of Independence, which is a list of grievances that is not relevant to constitutional law.
Well I think the discussion is not about the law but the founding of American principles and American history. The quote liberalviewer showed was written by Thomas Jefferson and was used by LV to debunk the claim that McCain made that the nation was founded on judeo-christian values and principles. Jefferson's quote does not sum up the founding of the nation as Americas foundation was still being laid and the people were Christian by and large. This video is about the vision (cont'd)
2) of Obama for Americas future verses McCains view of the past. It is a distorted message whose purpose is to promote the Obama campaign during the campaigning period prior to the 2008 election. It is not the proper forum to determine the make up of the nation before or since. You may believe that the founding of the nation which include state and local governance was never based in judeo- christian principles. I would disagree with that. LV was just trying to knock McCain in favor of Obama.
No, the issue is that there exists the myth that the U.S. was founded on "Judeo-Christian values." You argue that this is the case because most people at the time were Christian, which is both debatable and irrelevant: being written by a Christian doesn't make something inherently based on Christian dogma.
The American Revolution and subsequent constitution were built on secular principles of government from the enlightenment period, not any sort of Christian ideology.
The myth you stated was a side point and was LVs opinion. One which I do not share. I'm not arguing things "written" and I would never say that if a Christian wrote something that is must be based on "Christian dogma". I repeat that LV is incorrect that McCains statement was debunked by Thomas Jeffersons quote that he provided. Also you are discounting the state and local governance that was and is widely varied in this country both at the beginning of the country and today. (Cont'd)
2) The federal government has much more power today so that liberals for example can ban bibles from a school in Mississippi but Mississippians cannot ban abortion in NYC. But we are talking about the beginnings of the country, a different thing. Finally you missed the point of the video which was to support Obama in the election and do a bit of harm to McCains image as it were.
The myth of Judeo-Christian origins is actually quite central to the video.
The Constitution forbids an established religion and is decidedly secular in character. Also, it is above state constitutions and local law. The quote you seem to think doesn't disprove anything in fact indicates that the source of common law is not Christian in nature.
Perhaps you falsely associate "Christian majority" with "Christian nation."
The state of Virginia, Jeffersons own state once had a state sponsored religion. You can look it up. Also the purpose of this video is to feed the idea that McCain is old, panders to the 'religious right' and is therefore a poor choice for POTUS compared to Obama. The video was put up just before the election when the word was out that McCain would probably die in office because he is old. The quote in question was from 1824 while the country was still in infancy. Thanks for replying.
That's different from a national religion and also different from being established on these principles. The new republican ideas which were the basis of the new American government system are secular in nature.
As a side note, even if the U.S. was established as a nation of any specific religious character, there is no justification for it remaining so now.
The thing about McCain was mainly because many--including myself--think that McCain sold himself out to the far-right to win the primaries.
Truth be told, in my opinion there are not enough far right wing people or far left to win an election. Most elections are middle road voters. McCain had a reputation for being a RINO or a fence sitter, soft on illegal immigration in a border state so he had to move right a bit but not far right.
I think that separating the state & church has been the right thing to do as LV said for the purpose of inclusion. It is important for the sake of unity. You'll notice no state sponsored religion now
The issue is the primaries. In the 2000 election, McCain lost quite badly to the far more conservative W. Since 2000, McCain ceased to be a moderate conservative and instead became what I would view as a sell-out in order to show to Republicans that he's "conservative enough." Then, as usually happens, he moved to the center to seek moderate votes and ran on his past "maverick" status.
I tend to agree with your assessment. McCain did some deals in the primarys to kill the Romney candidacy joining with Huckabee to pool delagates against him. Huckabee is not the nice guy he pretends to be. It's funny but Bush ran as a conservative and turned out to be quite a bit left of center after 8 yrs. Ideologue on democracy abroad, favorable to illegal immigrants, and never vetoing Republican spending bills. His low approval rating at the end was both Dem and Repub.
In addition, the American Civil War represented precisely a crack in liberalism towards democracy, but in no way did it follow that America became democratic as a consequence. In many respects, the opposite happened.
Finally, to my knowledge America has only tolerated Jews in any marked measure since the first Jewish immigrants arrived before WW II but even still according to some scholars anti-Semitism persisted in America's top universities almost to the 1970s.
As the great philosopher Socrates said, the "...greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be." To do what we believe in.
Instead of picking out small details, why don't you look at the whole picture first before you begin to question things you are not aware of? Have an open mind first meaning look at the whole picture and think outside the box. Don't be closed minded liberals.
So the better question you should have asked was: Is America better off with Obama who is not clear in what he says and believes in to please the ears of his voters or is America better off with McCain who is clear in what he says and believes in, not aiming to please everyone for the sake of votes to achieve an ambiguous political agenda?"
Now, Obama appealed to all different beliefs yet if you have any common sense to know, that if you want to win an election, you must win as many votes as possible. So you must appeal to and say what all people want to hear to win those votes. Basically, Obama says what you want to hear with no clear groundwork of what he actually believes in. McCain tells you exactly what he believes in and is not vague and redundant in what he says.
Yes the common law did exist even before the times of Christ, but our founding fathers knew who Christ was when they founded this nation. The common law was established and enhanced inspired to some extent by Christ's teachings as Jefferson had quoted saying. So it is not actually a myth you like you accuse it to be.
What McCain meant to say, if you care to look at the whole picture, is that America was INFLUENCED by Judeo-Christian values. Jesus' life ended with his persecution. Persecution is why our founding fathers fled their homelands to establish THIS nation based on common law.
Many so-called "Free Thinkers", are actually closed minded and here's why: Liberal Viewer: It is true what Thomas Jefferson wrote to Major Cartwright but may I also remind you that Thomas Jefferson was a Protestant? Jefferson said in a letter to William Short concerning the teachings of Jesus:"...we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man."
The letter you refer to also regards Socrates, Epicurus and Plato as some of the great moral reformists of their times. Albeit Jesus was regarded as the greatest of these moral reformists, Jefferson did not determine this from his "divinity" but from what remains in the texts. Much to the accordance of a deist, the religious and/or secular paths toward progression are not important, but the the progression itself is the prize.
Of course by that logic, since Democracy itself was invented by Pagans, the foundations of our gov are actually Pagan.
Well, all hail zeus then.
Your logic is flawed. It doesn't follow that if someone who is christian (or of any religion) influences something, that automatically makes it religious.
Nor does agreeing with someone on one thing mean one has to agree with every thing the that person believes.
It's apprehended that Jews, Muslims, pagans,etc, may be elected to high offices under the Gov of the US.Those who are Muslim, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President, or other high office, but in one of 2 cases. 1st, if the people of US lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves. Gov Samuel Johnston7/30/1788
Judeo-Christian my ass! is bank interest Judeo-Christian???? if your whole monetory system is against what God want, how come u r saying Judeo-Christian! fuck u!
Lol - I've often pondered this myself. I presume it does NOT include the barbaric treatment of each other described in Leviticus et al...And I like to think that lessons learned during, say, the 300 years of inquisition can be put aside?
What about "manifest destiny" and colonialism under the 'rights' of god-fearin' nations?
"Judeo-Christian" values my arse.
In fact, organized religion is always a few generations behind the free thinkers,
You kinda left out the ones in Deuteronomy, like you cant have your son take a punishment for you when you break the law.
Funny you should mention the Spanish Inquisition, it was started by the GOVERNMENT not the church. In fact the Pope punished Spain by placing an 'Interdiction' on the entire country for a year.
I'll let you find out what that means, because its clear you didn't thoroughly study the Inquisition.
When I was in school the nuns usually taught that the founding fathers were Deist..basically non-commital about religion..no big wup. Judeo-Christian I've always understood to be an evolving understanding, and way to relate to, God/Universe. I think I'm missing the secret language here. What exactly are "Judeo-Christian values" and what separates them from simply Deist live-and- let-live?.... By the way...both politicians are pandering...Obama's just better at it.
I think the reason people think that the country was founded on religious and specifically Judeo-Christian principles because of the inclusion of the word "God" in the US motto, "In God we Trust" and in the pledge of allegiance, "..one Nation under God". However, those phrases were not written until 1864 and 1892 respectively. However, I think that there are mentions of "God" in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, aren't there?
The declaration has a few generic references to a supreme being (responsible for the laws of nature,law giver, moral judge, provider of providence), but nothing too specific. The constitution does not mention god at all unless you somehow count the fact that in the signature the date is written as "in the year of our lord" :P
I've always been slightly mystified by the "Judeo-" part. If the argument is that we were founded on these values simply because most of the people involved and most of the population at that time was Christian, where does the "Judeo-" come from? How many Jews were present at the drafting of the Constitution? I guess the Jews got "virtual representation" because the Old Testament is a part of the Bible.
Christianity, Catholicism, and Muslim religions are all based in Judeo traditions and beliefs. In fact all 3 at least recognize Jesus as a real man and Christians and Catholics worship Jesus, a Jew himself. So it doesn't specifically mean Jewish as more pertaining to the roots of the religion basis.
I realize that, I guess what I was getting at is many people choose to use "Judeo-Christian" instead of just "Christian" to create the impression that they're being less sectarian than they really are, and to try to divest their positions of the biases they have by suggesting that their views are more in line with historical religious values. Sorry for being glib.
I just want to know why every video made in this style are made by people who like to whisper? hahaha it doesnt make me believe what you say it just bugs the crap out of me!
I think many Jews like to affirm the myth of Judeo-Christian Civilization since it includes their group in the foundations of Western Civilization, a civilization which in fact has historically marginalized the Jews as the other.
It also helps build common ground with Christians, who the Jews like to enlist to help in their plans for hegemony/apartheid in the Holy Land.
Patrick Henry (1736-1799) was an American Revolutionary leader and orator, who spoke the now famous phrase, Give me liberty or give me death! Patrick Henry boldly declared: It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionist, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.
On March 11, 1792 George Washington wrote I am sure that never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs, than those of the Unites States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency, which was so often manifested during our Revolution, or that they failed to consider the omnipotence of that God who is able to protect them.
George Washington (1732-1799) was the first president of the United States and on June 1, 1774 as the Colonies were seeking Gods will as to whether they should break ties with England; George Washington made this entry in his diary: went to church and fasted all day.
On July 9, 1776, the Continental Congress authorized the Continental Army to provide chaplains for their troops. General George Washington then issued the general order to his troops, stating: The General hopes and trust that every officer and man will endeavor so to live, and act as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country.
In July of 1789, in a letter to the Directors of the Society of the United Brethren for Propagating the Gospel among the heathen, President Washington committed that government should: Co-operate, as far as the circumstances may conveniently admit, with the disinterested endeavors of your Society to Civilize and Christianize the savages of the Wilderness.
Let us unite, therefore, imploring the Supreme Ruler of nations, to spread his holy protection over these United States; to turn the machinations of the wicked to the conforming of our constitutions; to enable us to at all times to root out internal sedition, and put invasion to flight; to perpetuate to our country that prosperity, which his goodness has already conferred, and to verify the anticipation of this government being a safeguard to human rights.
Patrick Henry (1736-1799) was an American Revolutionary leader and orator, who spoke the now famous phrase, Give me liberty or give me death!Patrick Henry boldly declared: It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionist, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.
the only thing jefferson done is sneak out to the slave house to get a little brown sugar he caught his death of cold and the rest is history now we have opra and obama haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
I wish to thank LiberalViewer for posting this important video as well as links that helped prove the video's point.
It is indeed true that America was not founded on an particular religion (or on the values or principles of any religion). I did lots of research on Thomas Jefferson and America's foundation. This video proved to be a mind-opener!
Thanks again to LiberalViewer for this essential video.
My freinds please read your history books before you try to disreguard what is our historicle values and foundation it can all be summed up in this quote from Paick Henry you know him right???""It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
As to the Christian system of faith, it appears to me as a species of Atheism a sort of religious denial of God. It professes to believe in a man rather than in God. It is a compound made up chiefly of Manism with but little Deism and is as near to Atheism as twilight is to darkness. It introduces between man and his Maker an opaque body which it calls a Redeemer, as the moon introduces her opaque self between the earth and the sun, and it produces by this means a religious, or an irreligious,
The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.
revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third
In the words of Thomas Paine, author of Common Sense.
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
"My own mind is my own church."
Deists embraced a Newtonian worldview; that is, they believed all things in the universe, even God, must obey the laws of nature.
"Every national church or religion has established itself by pretending..."
Wow. Where to begin. Calling America's Judeo-Christian foundation a myth? Stop trying to change our history!!! Let's start with George Washington. He was the father of our country and he was a christian. Historian Jared Sparks (1789-1866) wrote: "To say that he [George Washington] was not a Christian would be to impeach his sincerity and honesty." (continues)...
...And what did George Washington say about his Christian faith? In his farewell address, he wrote "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness—these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens."
North Carolina's own constitution stated that if you did not believe in the Judeo-Christian God along with the Old and New Testaments, you could not hold public office.
Noah Webster wrote, "[O]ur citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Buble, particularly the New Testament, or the Christian religion."
Want more? Here's Benjamin Rush on the founding principle of national public schools: "[T]he only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government...is the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible".
Here's Daniel Webster on the founding principle of the oath of office: 'What is an oath? . . . [I]t is founded on a degree of consciousness that there is a Power above us that will reward our virtues or punish our vices. . . . [O]ur system of oaths in all our courts, by which we hold liberty and property and all our rights, are founded on or rest on Christianity and a religious belief.'
Even England understood that we were a nation founded on Judeo-Christian values. Jonathan Trumbull, a crown-appointed governor, wrote back to England: "If you ask an American, who is his master? He will tell you he has none, nor any governor but Jesus Christ."
HERE'S ONE OF MY FAVORITES: Patrick Henry boldly declared: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians: not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ"
The men of Marlborough, Massachusetts unanimously declared in 1773: "Death is more eligible than slavery, a free-born people are not required by the religion of Jesus Christ to submit to tyranny, but may make use of such power as God has given them to recover and support their laws and liberties" SOUNDS LIKE FOUNDING PRINCIPLES TO ME!!!
Lewis Cass sums it up best i think, stating: "Independent of its connection with human destiny hereafter, the fate of republican government is indissolubly bound up with the fate of Christian religion, and a people who reject its holy faith will find themselves the slaves of their own evil passions and of arbitrary power." Sounds like our CURRENT government. Doesn't it?
By the way, if YouTube has arranged my comments in reverse-chronological order (as it often does, at first), please read the last comment first and proceed to the first.
hold on to your fairy tale people tried to enlighten you but some like u refuse to be.
you'd probably also believe that the republican and democratic parties are two different parties with different goals lol. Wake up! Think! its not illegal yet!
You wrote "stated" - it no longer states that, I hope? Do you feel Judeo-Christian religious values should be favored by the state over other values, of civil or different religious background? Or that only those who believe the old and new testaments should hold public office?
First, I agree with Washington that we must labor to keep the 2 supports of (christian) religion and morality. Otherwise America will fall (that's why it's falling right now)
And as far as public office, I agree with John Jay who stated, "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."
This is a great video, and is very informative. Most people probably don't know how much the pagan founded English common law is ingrained in our nation. That common law is the main reason abortion is legal in the US.
I really liked your video and your channel. If you need any help getting this video or channel exposed I use a site called tubeviews.(net) It has really helped like 20 of my main videos get to the top in position. God Bless!
OMG nobody here actually understands what the hell they are saying first off socialism is a style of economics not a political statement.
secondly everyone is assuming that Thomas Jefferson was an expert on Saxon religions In fact Jefferson was wrong. Saxons were extremely violent because they were often over run w/ Germanic & Gothic nomads. They accepted Germanic gods. these gods emphasized not equal rights but oppression of the weak just cause a founding father said it, doesn't mean it is true
Easy- not debunked because Christians will not admit they are wrong EVER (unless higher Christian authority concedes first, i.e. the Pope or one of the Evangelist ministers, THEN it's ok to be wrong)
@IAm1337Tube THE TRINITARIAN TREATY OF 1822: "In the name of the Most Holy and Indivisible Trinity." We are now left with the indisputable fact that almost every one of the original 13 states required a belief in God in order to hold office. If this were founded a secular nation that would never have been considered on any level.
It's sad that the atheists in this country have to foce their version of history on us due to the fact that are so grandly insecure with the facts.
You Fail.
NewGenerationMA 8 months ago
@NewGenerationMA nowhere in that quote does it mention christianity. you are the one that fails.
fkmaurice 1 week ago
@IAm1337Tube The phrase in question does not appear in the Arabic version The phrase was understood to mean that the US did not have officially hostile relations with nations which were officially Muslim. The treaty was renegotiated a few years later. The phrase was indisputably NOT a part of the subsequent treaty.
Paris peace treaty: In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.
It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts . . .
NewGenerationMA 8 months ago
@IAm1337Tube the US was founded on Christian Beliefs and the rights of a few, seculars, have been shoved down our throats against the intent of the founding fathers. Your quote was NOT from a founding father. If you would like to go tit for tat with the evil quote thing there are far more stated by seculars. We could use the soviet union alone where 60 million were killed in order to maintain a secular state.
NewGenerationMA 8 months ago
For years have been asking Christians who claim that America was founded upon "Christian Principles" to name even one of these so-called mysterious "Principles". In all fairness and honesty, these phantom "Principles" must be unique or specific to Christianity. Not a single person has yet to come up with any of these alleged "Principles".
dagoose109 8 months ago
@dagoose109 how about slavery? the bible promotes it and we did it for a long time :P
JerkingForJesus 7 months ago
@JerkingForJesus---True. However, Christianity will not claim that the Bible condones slavery or any of it''s other moral atrocities.
dagoose109 7 months ago
For more information about Hitler's religious ties, google: nazi photos and click on the first link at the top.
WxsOnline 8 months ago
Hitler hated atheists and aligned himself with the Protestant and Catholic churches of Germany. He was a Roman Catholic who claimed that the Aryan race was the will of God, and believe that the earth was created by God. "I swear by God, this holy oath, to the Führer of the German Reich and people. Adolf Hitler..." was an oath that Nazi soldiers took. — The More You Know!
WxsOnline 8 months ago
@WxsOnline so you bought into Hitler's propaganda like the rest of the morons in Nazi Germany. Hitler was an ATHEIST.
NewGenerationMA 8 months ago
@NewGenerationMA no he wasn't. do some fucking research before you look like a moron.
fkmaurice 1 week ago
@Draygin2004 pray to zuse, he is the one true lord. lol. its sad that you cant answer that simple question. what distinguishes christianity from a cult?
SuperAthiest1 10 months ago
“The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.” – John Adams
“The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.”
- John Adams
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
- John Adams
NewGenerationMA 10 months ago
One of the earliest acts of congress.
“The United States in Congress assembled … recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States … a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools.”
“Congress passed this resolution: “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”
- United States Congress 1782
NewGenerationMA 10 months ago
The creator of this video does not do full research and is dishonest in his intent. Here are some quotes that dismantle his facade.
"“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.”
“It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.”
"True religion affords to government its surest support.”
George Washington was certainly a parcipiant witness.
NewGenerationMA 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Draygin2004 "Hide your white robes … 1980’s Democrat.
Screw the constitution 2000s.. Democrat
People are too stupid to be left to govern themselves 2008 Democrat.
Evil is better than goodness … Eternal Democrat."
Love it.
NewGenerationMA 10 months ago
@doratestudo21 ...... What will 2012 be? .....
...
VIRTUE OF SELFISHNESS !
hackit12 11 months ago 4
Hey, it is true that the American colonies were founded by christian sects who in many cases wanted to establish a "new jerusalem". So McCain is right, provided we don't interpret his words as the "US sovreign nation was founded on christian principles by the founding fathers". That would be false.
prophetchannel 11 months ago
til fucking valhalla
hail crom
CupisHomines 1 year ago
i luv pagans
CupisHomines 1 year ago 2
1 Of 9 / A Nation Adrift (America's Beginning's & Decline)
look this up and watch!
125evinrude 1 year ago
1 Of 9 / A Nation Adrift (America's Beginning's & Decline)
look this up and watch!
125evinrude 1 year ago
I think its very dangerous to have our nation be an official "christian nation" I would be hated for not believing, my friends in other religions will be hated/discriminated, Gays will be hated, man the list goes ON AND ON..
seanturpin01 1 year ago
no they are just trying to take jefferson out of the picture all together-- texas board of education
pbhs07 1 year ago
Hitler coined the phrase "Big Lie" in 'Mein Kampf' to educate the primitive masses how the judeo-criminals rule over them thru psychological operations. The primitive masses fail to comprehend inside their simplistic minds how any people could be so wicked to carry out fraud on the massive scale which is how jewish absurdities such as the "Torah" and? the "Holocaust" become accepted as truthful over time thru repetition. Perhaps not even 100,000 jewish deaths resulted from WW2.
ThePromiseOfPie 1 year ago
I put my faith in Christ Jesus and the new Testament. I'm NO JUDEOchristian. I would be glad to be called a CHRISTIAN Jesus is the promised seed of Abraham as GALATIANS tells us GALATIANS says the seed is singular, as in one, as in CHRIST...not plural. My faith is in the one true God. GALATIANS says the children of Abraham are those who have faith in Christ and that the Jerusalem below is in bondage but the Jerusamen above is free. I'm free in Christ Jesus and NOT a JUDEOchristian
cbasallie 1 year ago
@cbasallie yahweh (the jewish god) is your god! he is the father in "father, son, and holly spirit", thus the judeo-christians how do you people believe in this stuff when you know nothing about it? jesus and yahweh are one in the same according to the christian myth in which you believe. people who actually read the bible are called atheists. lol.
SuperAthiest1 11 months ago
John Mccain says right or not ... in my idia .. Because Christian religion respect all human kinds not likes other ... In the shelter of Christianity all nations can be fruitful” even if you see Hinduism sees India … And Islam see Arabia you can live, eat there but they never give you nationality or their girls to live there... Now you tell. Islamic law is very strict it will be never equal with Christianity... the peace of humanity …. christianity ....
JAMEEL900 1 year ago
Sorry you are incorrect, belief without proof is called faith, belief only with proof is called reality.
wb8594 1 year ago
I can't believe the people who think of themselves as "patriotic" while trying to implement Christianity into our laws. I wonder how they feel about Muslims who force Sharia law on the people... Oh, right, they probably want to bomb them.
d0861 1 year ago 12
i think this christian founding myth exists because evangelicals need it as a reason to push their beliefs and religious laws onto people and to have it made as law. eg. gay marriage, they don't want this legal, but really have no reason to stop it except for religious reasons, so this is why they need to convince people americas laws are based on their religion.
siwooot 1 year ago
@BanControl Christianity is also the biggest money making scam ever invented.
wb8594 1 year ago
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" Article 11, Treaty With Tripoli, 1796.....founding fathers were still Alive....so sad people think we're a christian nation
mayne06 1 year ago
liberalviewer, i would not like to invoke any anger from your viewers or yourself, i would simply like to remark on one of the questions you asked at the end of this video. you said "reaching out to those of other faiths or no faith at all?" the problem with that last part is that atheism is in reality a "faith" to even have an opinion on what is beyond life, faith is required. you have faith that there is no god, since you cannot disprove the existence of god, just as christians cannot prove it
MrVincentR 1 year ago
@MrVincentR I think you're confusing faith with not seeing the point in something. I don't see the point in believing that there is a god or an afterlife so I don't believe it. It's not a matter of "faith" to me or anyone else who calls themself an atheist to believe what we believe, it's simply a matter of not seeing why we should believe. You are right that I cannot disprove the existence of god but the burden of proof lies on the people making the claims, not those cynical of the claims.
elsparx 1 year ago
@elsparx you make a good argument, and i thank you for not being hostile. to comment on what you said about the burden of proof being of those making the claims. what you say is partly true, since they bring up the notion of there being a god, it requires faith to even have an opinion of such a topic. say i tell you i have an autographed baseball at home that is very valuable. (just an example) now you can believe that i do, or that i don't, but neither inference is based on fact, hence faith
MrVincentR 1 year ago
@MrVincentR actually faith comes from believing without evidence, cant really logically ascribe it to an agnostic or atheist viewpoint. Like saying you cant disprove a invisible pink unicorn named Fred lives in the corner of my bedroom, and that i have "faith" that such an insane belief isn't real.
wb8594 1 year ago
@wb8594 if you cannot prove or disprove something, it requires faith to BELIEVE it either way. you don't know for sure that there is no god. yes it is highly unlikely, but such a notion cannot be dismissed because you simply cannot know for sure. therefore faith is required to fill in the gap of not knowing
MrVincentR 1 year ago
@MrVincentR I have no "faith" in anything, I only have knowledge and beliefs based on provable facts, logical conclusions or deductive reasoning. As such faith in the supernatural (i.e. religions and religious faith) is regarded by me as man-made fantasy and fiction and basically all around primitive, childish and a waste of time.
wb8594 1 year ago
@wb8594 it's so funny how you say you have faith in nothing yet right after you say you have "beliefs" that is faith. it is based on what you can prove, but still, it requires your will to sustain it. you have faith that there is no god. you cannot prove there isn't, so you BELIVE that there isn't. i understand your inferense is based on contradictions between science and the bible, but it is a leap of faith on your part. you believe something that you cannot prove, that god does not exist.
MrVincentR 1 year ago
@MrVincentR Do you understand how proof works? If you tell me that you can lift 2,000 pounds, it isn't up to me to prove you can't, it's up to you to prove you can. The burden of proof is always on the person making the positive (there is) claim. I don't have to prove I didn't rob the bank, the police have to prove I did.
BiffWhitebread13 1 year ago
@BiffWhitebread13 why can't you people wrap your head around this simple concept? you are just as ignorant in saying there is no god than others are in saying there is a god. you cannot disprove their claim, yes it is true that they cannot prove it, but something like god is something that no one can say FOR SURE. therefore if you BELIEVE that there is no god then there you go. faith.
MrVincentR 1 year ago
@MrVincentR I didn't say I know for sure there is no god--I'm saying I've never seen any reliable evidence for it--and the burden of proof still lies with you. I'm not claiming there is no god--get it? I don't have to prove it. You are claiming there is a god, so prove it or shut up. Do they have any logic or debating classes at your school? Saying I believe there is no god is like saying my hobby is not collecting stamps. Pwned yet again. Yawn.
BiffWhitebread13 1 year ago
@BiffWhitebread13 first of all, i never said anything about myself believing in god. all i am saying is that ATHEISM IS THE BELIEF THAT THERE IS NO GOD. to even have an opinion on the subject you have to fill the gap that is left by evidence with faith. i personally believe that there is no god, but i will not say that there is no god because i know that no matter how unlikely and improbable it is, i cannot know for certain without faith. and neither can you. it's not my fault you're retarded
MrVincentR 1 year ago
@MrVincentR Atheism is the intellectual position that there is no reason to believe in god. Belief can arise from a consideration of the facts or the acceptance of an idea in the absence of evidence (Faith) You seem to be confusing faith will belief based on a rational consideration of evidence.
estragon9 1 year ago
@estragon9 i'm not confused at all. i do not believe in god. and you are right, that belief is based on a genuine lack of evidence on the subject. but that is still a BELIEF. one that requires faith. if i say that i have a baseball autographed by babe ruth at my house, you can choose to believe that i do in fact have one, or choose to believe that it is very unlikely and i do not have one. if you had no faith, you wouldn't care either way and not think about it again.
MrVincentR 1 year ago
@MrVincentR You have to acknowledge that belief and non belief can be quite different. Let's take for example, a god you have never heard of. Some people might have a deep abiding belief in this deity while you have complete and utter non belief based on ignorance. Now let's say I tell you the name of the god. That doesn't change things much does it? Your non-belief in this obscure god is not on par with believers. Belief is religious and faith based. Non-belief is not.
estragon9 1 year ago
@estragon9 what about the belief that nothing happens after death? that isn't non belief at all. sure you are in disbelief about the existence of a heaven or hell but it isn't stopping there, it is going so far as to say that nothing happens when you die. based on zero evidence, it is going from disbelief to the belief that we simply slip away into nothing. the god argument is no different. it is not just disbelief, if it were, then there wouldn't be certainty in the claim that there is no god.
MrVincentR 1 year ago
@MrVincentR So let's discuss. What evidence is there that consciousness survives the death of the brain. I agree it is wrong to say "nothing happens when you die". However, a scientific understanding of consciousness is that it is a manifestation of the functions of the brain. We can show that the brain ceases to function after death. Can we say there is no evidence that would lead us to lead us to believe that anything happens after death.
estragon9 1 year ago
@estragon9 well the way view the subject of life after death (not at all insinuating that i'm correct just that i personally think) is the same way that energy works. say your soul, or spirit, or life force, or even just the character created by the functioning of the brain is like energy. energy cannot be destroyed or created, only transfered or redirected. this theory personally is comforting to me. it may be wrong. but no one knows.
MrVincentR 1 year ago
@MrVincentR I agree that reason can not give us absolute knowledge. There is always uncertainty. However, there are different degrees of uncertainty. We can have a high degree of certainty (thought not absolute) in rejecting ideas that are not consistent, or fly in the face of the preponderance of evidence. We can have high degrees of certainty in accepting well established ideas like electro-magnetic theory (although we acknowledge that it might break down under extreme conditions).
estragon9 1 year ago
@estragon9 there are different degrees, religion is one of the more extreme degrees. atheism though seems to be an excusing of anything existing outside of range of sight or direct contact with. and i would think that those who are some of the most avid fans of science would be more open to possibility. saying things like it is unlikely rather than it is not.
MrVincentR 1 year ago
@MrVincentR The internet is an especially polarizing element in our society. It's difficult to resist letting strong language fly when most communication is anonymous. (not that this doesn't also have it's plus side). Having said that most atheist's I know are willing to accept indirect evidence. Quantum mechanics, E&M, Evolution are examples. I would say everyone, not just Atheist should temper their language by using superlatives less frequently.
estragon9 1 year ago
@estragon9 and that is the fine line between having faith and not having faith. to say for curtain is to assume and to have faith, to admit that you don't know but have an idea about the subject is not having faith.
MrVincentR 1 year ago
@MrVincentR So if I claim there are little purple people living under the surface of venus then you would be considered ignorant in saying there are no little purple people? You can't prove the purple people don't exist. It's a matter of faith that you don't believe. Of course, that is silly. If I make an assertion then the burden of proof lies with me. You don't have to prove it not true. You would have to prove 5000 other gods don't exist. No one expects that.
estragon9 1 year ago
@estragon9 this is basic philosophy. it's not my fault that you can't understand it. if you even have an opinion about the subject of god or the afterlife then you have faith that what you believe is true, even if you think that there is nothing after death and there is no god, you are just as right in what you think as anyone else. the only way to not have faith is to either not care or admit that you don't know. because you know just as much as everyone else. NOTHING
MrVincentR 1 year ago
@MrVincentR I think it is you that has a basic misunderstanding of philosophy. You seem to be implying that you must be able to disprove A before you can rationally believe A is not true. You must therefore believe everything until proven false. I think the opposite is true. We believe in things because we have evidence to do so. A nihilist is someone you thinks you can't know anything. That's not the same as someone who does does not believe it something that there is no evidence for.
estragon9 1 year ago
@estragon9 you choose to believe the opposite. that there is no god. but you don't know, no matter what this inference is based on you still cannot know for sure if there is no god. so faith must fill the gap that is left by you not knowing. atheism is the BELIEF that there is no god. so why keep denouncing faith? you believe something that you do not know for sure. that is what faith is. the only way to not have faith is to have no opinion on the subject.
MrVincentR 1 year ago
I'm not saying it has anything to do with America being a Christian nation, but why does the declaration of independence say "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator" and why do the united states print "In God We Trust" on their money?
hhfleury 1 year ago
@hhfleury well I can tell you that "in God we trust" on American money is there because the Christian right hijacked our national motto (previously E Pluribus Unum) as well as the pledge of allegiance (previously didn't have the phrase "under god" in it) back in the 1950's during the Communist Red Scare as a way to identify ourselves as different from the officially atheist state of former USSR.
williafx 1 year ago 3
I watched this vid a few days ago and saw the "not a Christian nation" side get pwned rather badly (mostly due to the person doing the arguing being unprepared):
watch?v=E_3yn6c63Ww
Just wondering what other people think...
Eron2828 1 year ago
I watched this vid a few days ago and saw the "not a Christian nation" side get pwned rather badly (mostly due to the person doing the arguing being unprepared):
watch?v=E_3yn6c63Ww
Just wondering what other people think...
Eron2828 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Mainz 1012, France 1182, Upper Bavaria 1276, England 1290, France 1306 & 1322, Saxony 1349, Hungary 1360, Belgium 1370, Slovakia 1380, France 1394, Austria 1420, Lyons 1420, Cologne 1424, Mainz 1438, Augsburg 1438, Upper Bavaria 1442, Netherlands 1444, Brandenburg 1446, Mainz 1462 & 1483, Warsaw 1483, Spain & Italy 1492, Lithuania 1495, Portugal & Naples 1496, Navarre & Nuremburg 1498, Brandenburg & Prussia 1510, Genoa 1515, Naples 1533. SOME of the 100 times Jews thrown out of countries. Why?
2ndSamuel710 1 year ago
Intentional or not this is how it was. The founding fathers for the most part were Christians. I know there were some deists but the point is that the laws and customs were borrowed from their former European laws and customs which themselves were indoctrinated in Christianity. The only difference was that our for founding fathers took up the practice of Freemasonry with it's then existing 13 states. These states then being ruled by a Christian majority implemented those principles.
liberalwankers 1 year ago
Do the lies ever stop with you guys? This "LiberalViewer" just seems to spurt them out left and right. Does he ever stop to think geez maybe there is a reason we used to have The Ten Commandments hanging in our court rooms and schools or 90% of our laws were practically copied from Leviticus. Guys a liar simple as that and I'll bet he'll delete my comment again.
liberalwankers 1 year ago
Nice attempt at rewriting history!
....Fail
theblsm7 2 years ago
Americans Citizens without access to a fortune 100 companies treasury have been raped by the supreme court
davisfleetwood 2 years ago
English common law existed prior to the knowlege of Christ of those people. So to what God were the American founders referring when they claimed that "all men posses inalienable rights endowed to them by the Creator".
To which Creator were they referring? and
If taken from ancient English to which Creator were the early English referring?
Methinks the founders were basing their rights upon their Christian God given doctrine.
bush1tman 2 years ago
That's why they put that in the Constitution, right? Oh, wait, that's in the Declaration of Independence, which is a list of grievances that is not relevant to constitutional law.
zetanato 2 years ago
Well I think the discussion is not about the law but the founding of American principles and American history. The quote liberalviewer showed was written by Thomas Jefferson and was used by LV to debunk the claim that McCain made that the nation was founded on judeo-christian values and principles. Jefferson's quote does not sum up the founding of the nation as Americas foundation was still being laid and the people were Christian by and large. This video is about the vision (cont'd)
bush1tman 2 years ago
2) of Obama for Americas future verses McCains view of the past. It is a distorted message whose purpose is to promote the Obama campaign during the campaigning period prior to the 2008 election. It is not the proper forum to determine the make up of the nation before or since. You may believe that the founding of the nation which include state and local governance was never based in judeo- christian principles. I would disagree with that. LV was just trying to knock McCain in favor of Obama.
bush1tman 2 years ago
No, the issue is that there exists the myth that the U.S. was founded on "Judeo-Christian values." You argue that this is the case because most people at the time were Christian, which is both debatable and irrelevant: being written by a Christian doesn't make something inherently based on Christian dogma.
The American Revolution and subsequent constitution were built on secular principles of government from the enlightenment period, not any sort of Christian ideology.
zetanato 2 years ago
The myth you stated was a side point and was LVs opinion. One which I do not share. I'm not arguing things "written" and I would never say that if a Christian wrote something that is must be based on "Christian dogma". I repeat that LV is incorrect that McCains statement was debunked by Thomas Jeffersons quote that he provided. Also you are discounting the state and local governance that was and is widely varied in this country both at the beginning of the country and today. (Cont'd)
bush1tman 2 years ago
2) The federal government has much more power today so that liberals for example can ban bibles from a school in Mississippi but Mississippians cannot ban abortion in NYC. But we are talking about the beginnings of the country, a different thing. Finally you missed the point of the video which was to support Obama in the election and do a bit of harm to McCains image as it were.
bush1tman 2 years ago
The myth of Judeo-Christian origins is actually quite central to the video.
The Constitution forbids an established religion and is decidedly secular in character. Also, it is above state constitutions and local law. The quote you seem to think doesn't disprove anything in fact indicates that the source of common law is not Christian in nature.
Perhaps you falsely associate "Christian majority" with "Christian nation."
zetanato 2 years ago
The state of Virginia, Jeffersons own state once had a state sponsored religion. You can look it up. Also the purpose of this video is to feed the idea that McCain is old, panders to the 'religious right' and is therefore a poor choice for POTUS compared to Obama. The video was put up just before the election when the word was out that McCain would probably die in office because he is old. The quote in question was from 1824 while the country was still in infancy. Thanks for replying.
bush1tman 2 years ago
That's different from a national religion and also different from being established on these principles. The new republican ideas which were the basis of the new American government system are secular in nature.
As a side note, even if the U.S. was established as a nation of any specific religious character, there is no justification for it remaining so now.
The thing about McCain was mainly because many--including myself--think that McCain sold himself out to the far-right to win the primaries.
zetanato 2 years ago
Truth be told, in my opinion there are not enough far right wing people or far left to win an election. Most elections are middle road voters. McCain had a reputation for being a RINO or a fence sitter, soft on illegal immigration in a border state so he had to move right a bit but not far right.
I think that separating the state & church has been the right thing to do as LV said for the purpose of inclusion. It is important for the sake of unity. You'll notice no state sponsored religion now
bush1tman 2 years ago
The issue is the primaries. In the 2000 election, McCain lost quite badly to the far more conservative W. Since 2000, McCain ceased to be a moderate conservative and instead became what I would view as a sell-out in order to show to Republicans that he's "conservative enough." Then, as usually happens, he moved to the center to seek moderate votes and ran on his past "maverick" status.
zetanato 2 years ago
I tend to agree with your assessment. McCain did some deals in the primarys to kill the Romney candidacy joining with Huckabee to pool delagates against him. Huckabee is not the nice guy he pretends to be. It's funny but Bush ran as a conservative and turned out to be quite a bit left of center after 8 yrs. Ideologue on democracy abroad, favorable to illegal immigrants, and never vetoing Republican spending bills. His low approval rating at the end was both Dem and Repub.
bush1tman 2 years ago
In addition, the American Civil War represented precisely a crack in liberalism towards democracy, but in no way did it follow that America became democratic as a consequence. In many respects, the opposite happened.
Finally, to my knowledge America has only tolerated Jews in any marked measure since the first Jewish immigrants arrived before WW II but even still according to some scholars anti-Semitism persisted in America's top universities almost to the 1970s.
Stake2 2 years ago
I think McCain misses the point that values and their structure in fact change over time, they are not holy relics but discursive constructs.
A prime example is "all people are created equal" of Jefferson's. What we mean by that is not what Jefferson meant by that.
Liberalism certainly is not the same thing as democracy as Hofstadter pointed out more than 60 years ago.
Stake2 2 years ago
As the great philosopher Socrates said, the "...greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be." To do what we believe in.
jsancholla 2 years ago
Instead of picking out small details, why don't you look at the whole picture first before you begin to question things you are not aware of? Have an open mind first meaning look at the whole picture and think outside the box. Don't be closed minded liberals.
jsancholla 2 years ago
So the better question you should have asked was: Is America better off with Obama who is not clear in what he says and believes in to please the ears of his voters or is America better off with McCain who is clear in what he says and believes in, not aiming to please everyone for the sake of votes to achieve an ambiguous political agenda?"
jsancholla 2 years ago
Now, Obama appealed to all different beliefs yet if you have any common sense to know, that if you want to win an election, you must win as many votes as possible. So you must appeal to and say what all people want to hear to win those votes. Basically, Obama says what you want to hear with no clear groundwork of what he actually believes in. McCain tells you exactly what he believes in and is not vague and redundant in what he says.
jsancholla 2 years ago
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dazednconfused693 2 years ago
Yes the common law did exist even before the times of Christ, but our founding fathers knew who Christ was when they founded this nation. The common law was established and enhanced inspired to some extent by Christ's teachings as Jefferson had quoted saying. So it is not actually a myth you like you accuse it to be.
jsancholla 2 years ago
@jsancholla
the myth is that all the founding fathers were christian and founded the country to essentially be "Christian country"
this is false.
VRSoner 2 years ago
What McCain meant to say, if you care to look at the whole picture, is that America was INFLUENCED by Judeo-Christian values. Jesus' life ended with his persecution. Persecution is why our founding fathers fled their homelands to establish THIS nation based on common law.
jsancholla 2 years ago
@jsancholla
how can you possibly know what he "meant" to say.
I'm sorry it doesn't work that way.
VRSoner 2 years ago
Many so-called "Free Thinkers", are actually closed minded and here's why: Liberal Viewer: It is true what Thomas Jefferson wrote to Major Cartwright but may I also remind you that Thomas Jefferson was a Protestant? Jefferson said in a letter to William Short concerning the teachings of Jesus:"...we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man."
jsancholla 2 years ago
The letter you refer to also regards Socrates, Epicurus and Plato as some of the great moral reformists of their times. Albeit Jesus was regarded as the greatest of these moral reformists, Jefferson did not determine this from his "divinity" but from what remains in the texts. Much to the accordance of a deist, the religious and/or secular paths toward progression are not important, but the the progression itself is the prize.
Aneurythmic 2 years ago
@Funkyflorist: Also...........the Greeks were the first to have a republic, not the Israelites.....sorry.
SixtiesFan90 2 years ago
@Funkyflorist: Give me a break.
No way would a member of the church do this................I'm dead serious.
Whoever told you this is LYING to you.
SixtiesFan90 2 years ago
Sorry to burst your bubble, but English Common Law was influenced by the Magna Carta...
Which was penned by a Bishop... Quite literally a Christian wrote the foundation for Common Law.
Furthermore the Founders used the Magna Carta as the precedent for their right to declare independence.
Whether you accept theses facts or not is your opinion.
Funkyflorist 2 years ago
Of course by that logic, since Democracy itself was invented by Pagans, the foundations of our gov are actually Pagan.
Well, all hail zeus then.
Your logic is flawed. It doesn't follow that if someone who is christian (or of any religion) influences something, that automatically makes it religious.
Nor does agreeing with someone on one thing mean one has to agree with every thing the that person believes.
booley 2 years ago
Actually our government is a "Constitutional Republic." And guess who were one of the first cultures to have a Republic... The Jews...
The comments you made are also irrelevant to the argument. We are talking about the 'roots' or 'origins' of the US Government, not it's form.
Funkyflorist 2 years ago
It's apprehended that Jews, Muslims, pagans,etc, may be elected to high offices under the Gov of the US.Those who are Muslim, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President, or other high office, but in one of 2 cases. 1st, if the people of US lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves. Gov Samuel Johnston7/30/1788
DefyTheTypical01 2 years ago
Judeo-Christian my ass! is bank interest Judeo-Christian???? if your whole monetory system is against what God want, how come u r saying Judeo-Christian! fuck u!
hamidmushtaq 2 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
fuck you liberal
AllenFTW 2 years ago
""What exactly are "Judeo-Christian values""'
Lol - I've often pondered this myself. I presume it does NOT include the barbaric treatment of each other described in Leviticus et al...And I like to think that lessons learned during, say, the 300 years of inquisition can be put aside?
What about "manifest destiny" and colonialism under the 'rights' of god-fearin' nations?
"Judeo-Christian" values my arse.
In fact, organized religion is always a few generations behind the free thinkers,
jaypeter666 2 years ago 3
You kinda left out the ones in Deuteronomy, like you cant have your son take a punishment for you when you break the law.
Funny you should mention the Spanish Inquisition, it was started by the GOVERNMENT not the church. In fact the Pope punished Spain by placing an 'Interdiction' on the entire country for a year.
I'll let you find out what that means, because its clear you didn't thoroughly study the Inquisition.
Funkyflorist 2 years ago
When I was in school the nuns usually taught that the founding fathers were Deist..basically non-commital about religion..no big wup. Judeo-Christian I've always understood to be an evolving understanding, and way to relate to, God/Universe. I think I'm missing the secret language here. What exactly are "Judeo-Christian values" and what separates them from simply Deist live-and- let-live?.... By the way...both politicians are pandering...Obama's just better at it.
peppilepiu 2 years ago
I think the reason people think that the country was founded on religious and specifically Judeo-Christian principles because of the inclusion of the word "God" in the US motto, "In God we Trust" and in the pledge of allegiance, "..one Nation under God". However, those phrases were not written until 1864 and 1892 respectively. However, I think that there are mentions of "God" in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, aren't there?
raskeLone 2 years ago
The declaration has a few generic references to a supreme being (responsible for the laws of nature,law giver, moral judge, provider of providence), but nothing too specific. The constitution does not mention god at all unless you somehow count the fact that in the signature the date is written as "in the year of our lord" :P
uvauva2 2 years ago
I've always been slightly mystified by the "Judeo-" part. If the argument is that we were founded on these values simply because most of the people involved and most of the population at that time was Christian, where does the "Judeo-" come from? How many Jews were present at the drafting of the Constitution? I guess the Jews got "virtual representation" because the Old Testament is a part of the Bible.
number154 2 years ago
Christianity, Catholicism, and Muslim religions are all based in Judeo traditions and beliefs. In fact all 3 at least recognize Jesus as a real man and Christians and Catholics worship Jesus, a Jew himself. So it doesn't specifically mean Jewish as more pertaining to the roots of the religion basis.
mhunt300 2 years ago
I realize that, I guess what I was getting at is many people choose to use "Judeo-Christian" instead of just "Christian" to create the impression that they're being less sectarian than they really are, and to try to divest their positions of the biases they have by suggesting that their views are more in line with historical religious values. Sorry for being glib.
number154 2 years ago
I just want to know why every video made in this style are made by people who like to whisper? hahaha it doesnt make me believe what you say it just bugs the crap out of me!
Chrisyork1989 2 years ago
I think many Jews like to affirm the myth of Judeo-Christian Civilization since it includes their group in the foundations of Western Civilization, a civilization which in fact has historically marginalized the Jews as the other.
It also helps build common ground with Christians, who the Jews like to enlist to help in their plans for hegemony/apartheid in the Holy Land.
Just my two cents.
madams99 2 years ago
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Patrick Henry (1736-1799) was an American Revolutionary leader and orator, who spoke the now famous phrase, Give me liberty or give me death! Patrick Henry boldly declared: It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionist, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.
leafz15 2 years ago
On March 11, 1792 George Washington wrote I am sure that never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs, than those of the Unites States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency, which was so often manifested during our Revolution, or that they failed to consider the omnipotence of that God who is able to protect them.
leafz15 2 years ago
"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion."
-John Adams
mike2jb 2 years ago 39
George Washington (1732-1799) was the first president of the United States and on June 1, 1774 as the Colonies were seeking Gods will as to whether they should break ties with England; George Washington made this entry in his diary: went to church and fasted all day.
leafz15 2 years ago
On July 9, 1776, the Continental Congress authorized the Continental Army to provide chaplains for their troops. General George Washington then issued the general order to his troops, stating: The General hopes and trust that every officer and man will endeavor so to live, and act as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country.
leafz15 2 years ago
In July of 1789, in a letter to the Directors of the Society of the United Brethren for Propagating the Gospel among the heathen, President Washington committed that government should: Co-operate, as far as the circumstances may conveniently admit, with the disinterested endeavors of your Society to Civilize and Christianize the savages of the Wilderness.
leafz15 2 years ago
Let us unite, therefore, imploring the Supreme Ruler of nations, to spread his holy protection over these United States; to turn the machinations of the wicked to the conforming of our constitutions; to enable us to at all times to root out internal sedition, and put invasion to flight; to perpetuate to our country that prosperity, which his goodness has already conferred, and to verify the anticipation of this government being a safeguard to human rights.
leafz15 2 years ago
Patrick Henry (1736-1799) was an American Revolutionary leader and orator, who spoke the now famous phrase, Give me liberty or give me death!Patrick Henry boldly declared: It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionist, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.
leafz15 2 years ago
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
-Thomas Jefferson
mike2jb 2 years ago 35
the only thing jefferson done is sneak out to the slave house to get a little brown sugar he caught his death of cold and the rest is history now we have opra and obama haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
sanddmann3 2 years ago
I wish to thank LiberalViewer for posting this important video as well as links that helped prove the video's point.
It is indeed true that America was not founded on an particular religion (or on the values or principles of any religion). I did lots of research on Thomas Jefferson and America's foundation. This video proved to be a mind-opener!
Thanks again to LiberalViewer for this essential video.
sharkey360 2 years ago
My freinds please read your history books before you try to disreguard what is our historicle values and foundation it can all be summed up in this quote from Paick Henry you know him right???""It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
1979newcreation 2 years ago
We are always better off with the truth and I am thrilled that the truth runs contrary to what McCain believes.
We would not be the symbol of freedom we have been and shall continue to be if had been 'founded on Judaic-Christian ideals'
Otokogoroshi 2 years ago
As to the Christian system of faith, it appears to me as a species of Atheism a sort of religious denial of God. It professes to believe in a man rather than in God. It is a compound made up chiefly of Manism with but little Deism and is as near to Atheism as twilight is to darkness. It introduces between man and his Maker an opaque body which it calls a Redeemer, as the moon introduces her opaque self between the earth and the sun, and it produces by this means a religious, or an irreligious,
greenxioprsusolglsos 2 years ago
The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.
revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third
BlueDingoDog 2 years ago
In the words of Thomas Paine, author of Common Sense.
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
"My own mind is my own church."
Deists embraced a Newtonian worldview; that is, they believed all things in the universe, even God, must obey the laws of nature.
"Every national church or religion has established itself by pretending..."
BlueDingoDog 2 years ago
Wow. Where to begin. Calling America's Judeo-Christian foundation a myth? Stop trying to change our history!!! Let's start with George Washington. He was the father of our country and he was a christian. Historian Jared Sparks (1789-1866) wrote: "To say that he [George Washington] was not a Christian would be to impeach his sincerity and honesty." (continues)...
1Co118 2 years ago
...And what did George Washington say about his Christian faith? In his farewell address, he wrote "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness—these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens."
1Co118 2 years ago
North Carolina's own constitution stated that if you did not believe in the Judeo-Christian God along with the Old and New Testaments, you could not hold public office.
1Co118 2 years ago
Noah Webster wrote, "[O]ur citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Buble, particularly the New Testament, or the Christian religion."
1Co118 2 years ago
Founding father John Adams encouraged all citizens to investigate political princilpes "with a sober...Christian spirit".
1Co118 2 years ago
Want more? Here's Benjamin Rush on the founding principle of national public schools: "[T]he only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government...is the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible".
1Co118 2 years ago
Here's Daniel Webster on the founding principle of the oath of office: 'What is an oath? . . . [I]t is founded on a degree of consciousness that there is a Power above us that will reward our virtues or punish our vices. . . . [O]ur system of oaths in all our courts, by which we hold liberty and property and all our rights, are founded on or rest on Christianity and a religious belief.'
1Co118 2 years ago
Even England understood that we were a nation founded on Judeo-Christian values. Jonathan Trumbull, a crown-appointed governor, wrote back to England: "If you ask an American, who is his master? He will tell you he has none, nor any governor but Jesus Christ."
1Co118 2 years ago
HERE'S ONE OF MY FAVORITES: Patrick Henry boldly declared: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians: not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ"
1Co118 2 years ago
The men of Marlborough, Massachusetts unanimously declared in 1773: "Death is more eligible than slavery, a free-born people are not required by the religion of Jesus Christ to submit to tyranny, but may make use of such power as God has given them to recover and support their laws and liberties" SOUNDS LIKE FOUNDING PRINCIPLES TO ME!!!
1Co118 2 years ago
Lewis Cass sums it up best i think, stating: "Independent of its connection with human destiny hereafter, the fate of republican government is indissolubly bound up with the fate of Christian religion, and a people who reject its holy faith will find themselves the slaves of their own evil passions and of arbitrary power." Sounds like our CURRENT government. Doesn't it?
1Co118 2 years ago
By the way, if YouTube has arranged my comments in reverse-chronological order (as it often does, at first), please read the last comment first and proceed to the first.
1Co118 2 years ago
hold on to your fairy tale people tried to enlighten you but some like u refuse to be.
you'd probably also believe that the republican and democratic parties are two different parties with different goals lol. Wake up! Think! its not illegal yet!
st3nkobe 2 years ago
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1Co118 2 years ago
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1Co118 2 years ago
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1Co118 2 years ago
You wrote "stated" - it no longer states that, I hope? Do you feel Judeo-Christian religious values should be favored by the state over other values, of civil or different religious background? Or that only those who believe the old and new testaments should hold public office?
tamari123 2 years ago
Great questions, tamari123 !
First, I agree with Washington that we must labor to keep the 2 supports of (christian) religion and morality. Otherwise America will fall (that's why it's falling right now)
And as far as public office, I agree with John Jay who stated, "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."
1Co118 2 years ago
Thanks! Keep up the good work! I'm tired of the Judeo-Christian founding myth.
freethinkerforlife 2 years ago
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SongofDeath007 2 years ago
great video! America is a much better nation when we acknowledge those who do no live or believe the same as we.
Tabbi8407 2 years ago
I think that the separation of Church and State should be just that and an election should not be based on who is what
Syn427 2 years ago
This is a great video, and is very informative. Most people probably don't know how much the pagan founded English common law is ingrained in our nation. That common law is the main reason abortion is legal in the US.
Odyssey54 2 years ago
What could be clearer than the
Ten Commandments (Judeo
), and the New Covenant (Christian), the foundations of our free and law abiding civilization.
ejm413 2 years ago
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KimJoneser 2 years ago
OMG nobody here actually understands what the hell they are saying first off socialism is a style of economics not a political statement.
secondly everyone is assuming that Thomas Jefferson was an expert on Saxon religions In fact Jefferson was wrong. Saxons were extremely violent because they were often over run w/ Germanic & Gothic nomads. They accepted Germanic gods. these gods emphasized not equal rights but oppression of the weak just cause a founding father said it, doesn't mean it is true
airbenderj3 2 years ago
I'd rather believe Jefferson over McCain.
I don't hate McCain, in fact he's one of the most credible Republicans for me in today's times...next to Ron Paul.
sharkey360 2 years ago
Easy- not debunked because Christians will not admit they are wrong EVER (unless higher Christian authority concedes first, i.e. the Pope or one of the Evangelist ministers, THEN it's ok to be wrong)
lunac666 3 years ago 3
pseudo christian principles me thinks
ac7933 3 years ago
Obama and McCain know nothing of Thomas Jefferson. For if they did, we would all be Libertarians and better off.
erato99 3 years ago