that was just one bullet entering the body, imagine a three round burst hitting you i dont think there is anyway you gonna be walking away from that. Never been into battle but i would rather have more "less potent" rounds than having less "more powerful" rounds.
you cant just use a blanket statement and say 5.56mm is ineffective. Well which load? 62gr green tip? 77gr smk? 55gr fmj? Out of what barrel? What twist? What distance? At what impact angle? On what size person? Theres dozens of variables.
In the end, being hit by one is not good, either way. Ive spoken to vietnam vets with 1st hand experience who said it would drop VC like a sack of shit. But that was a 20" barrel with a 55gr bullet at close/medium ranges.
@labartic The round can be effective some times, and ineffective some times. Even back in Vietnam the round could have right through the torsos of people without yawing or fragmenting leaving small wounds. I have a report by an army doctor where he documents this.
@labartic ya every situation is different. I have heard the near opposite from Vietnam and first hand I have shot deer in the heart and lungs with a 30-06 and seen them run over a hundred yards and have seen less perfect shots from a .223 drop them where they stood.
@mark3777 are you freaking serious? You've watched videos, magazines, and played freaking paintball and COD and you think you know what you talking about? I had to try not to laugh my freaking ass off at you're comment. Until you've seen what the 5.56 does to somebody, and watched them hit the ground like a rock behind your sights, you can sit down and shot the freak up. Freaking AK fanboy. Leave such discussions to the real men, who have taken this weapon into battle, and seen its capabilities
@SamJ1986 i have taken it into battle and wasnt impressed, at all. id sure as shit take an ak over an m4 any day. especially when it comes to reliability and penetration. What if your target is wearing armor of any kind. the 556 stops, and comes completely apart. the 7.62x39 also stops, but breaks ribs and punctures lungs. seen that first hand. but if you really want the job done..bring back the m1a...
ive read some magazines, watched all the videos on youtube, know all the history and specs, and own a rifle..TRUST me i know what im saying when i tell you the 5.56 is ineffective. did i mention i have a background in paintball, airsoft, and videogames. and i dare you to make a video so i can criticize it for not being tactical. its only a matter of time till i can go to a tactical class for a week then wooo...bring it im the top dawg uhh.
@ppitm but the speed of the bullet when entering tissue does matter. well and a lot of other variables. the weight of the bullet, angle of entry, temperature, hardness of bullet, shape of bullet, diameter of bullet, like mentioned speed of bullet, direction and speed of rotation. all this has to be taken into account when wanting accurate results of damage of tissues
@masterDevis Yes, there are. The Marine is unaware that David Petraeus actually got shot in the chest with a M16 and survived. He did like 100 push ups while he was recovering and was released early. I don't think he would have made it to a General if the round did what it was suppose to do.
The problem is that fragmentation only happens at very high velocities so the enemy has to be a relatively close range. Once you get below that fragmentation velocity you just poke .22 holes through people. Plus the heavier 62 grain bullet doesn't frag like that.
The new M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round the military recently issued the troops outperformed the 7.62 NATO through testing of more then a million rounds.
@killerex010 Yeah, they said it, but that doesn't make it true. They are comparing a basically unchanged 50 year old loading of the 7.62x51 and then comparing it to a new version of the 5.56x45 then saying its superior. If it was totally superior then all the armed forces would be dropping their 7.62x51 for 5.56x45 weapons,which they aren't.
@killerex010 thats great dude...but what happens if your target happens to be shooting at you and pinning a position down and hes say 600 meters away...have fun with your glorified 22
@Pill88Dickle I think this video is fairly accurate. While the 5.56mm is not a death ray, the way some folks carry on about it you'd think our soldiers were carrying a Daisy Red Rider into combat. Dense cover can affect even 7.62x51. You really can't hit what you can't see anyway.
@Pill88Dickle Thanks for the ballistics educational tidbit, sorry to be smug, but I'm well aware of the Hague and Geneva conventions. I was just scoffing at the "you can't kill anything unless you have a .30 cal." crowd. Yes, barrel length in the AR15/M16 platform is a major consideration.
I should say older designs such as the M14 are not the best design for CQB. SA does offer the SOCOM but this weapons muzzle blast and recoil are fierce even compared to 6.8 AR15 and it looses a great deal of accuracy compared to it's 22" full size bretheren. This though, is largely a non-issue inside of 100yds. though.
As such, 6.8SPC satisfies the old guard traditional yearning of the military for a rifle cartridge of .30 cal. energy that can incapacitate humans even with somewhat poor shot placement and military logisticians which operate in cost shavings world that strive for an ever better equipped soldier that's increasingly lighter with gear , has a short powerful but versatile weapon older designs such as the M14 which although is a prima donna for snipering is not a very portable weapon.
@Pill88Dickle I see 6.8 SPC as a good compromise between overkill and portability. The 5.56mm stopping power on humans is largely a non-issue to me since 5.56 balistic tip-Hornady TAP, or XM 193 out of at least 15.5" of barrel with proper shot placement is absolutely devastating to the human body. Anyway though, the 6.8SPC has more energy than 5.56mm or 7.62x39mm, has much less recoil than 7.62x51mm NATO, is quite portable in loaded magazines and fits the AR15/M16 platform perfectly.
@bearsfan1294 I wouldn't hunt with either, .243 WIN min,and that would be on does. .30-30 would be better. I hate to say it but both 5.56mmNATO and 7.62x39mm are designed to kill humans,sorry for my frankness.
2 many of you spoke abaut the 223 instate of the 5,56 nato !!!!!
listen ther is a big diference between both then the 223 is for civilen hunting service wiel the 5,56 nato is for the melitery service and thows guys knows wat are they talken abut so pls just think aubaut wat you wright befor you do.
im not from the usa but my origen contruy use the M 16a2 and the M4a1 so i know wat im talking abut.
this guy doesnt know crap, he just put on some tiger stripes and started talkin about computer simulations. i've shot the 5.56 enough (using it to kill) to know that those bullets always come apart like it shows. its a proven fact that past 200 meters it just punches holes instead of doing a 180 to go base first. assuming its a 20 inch barrel.
Millions of people Have survived AK47 gunshots, Just go down to the VA and Ask A bunch of war veterans. This bullshit is just advertisement hype for Ar15 fan boys. I would never get an Assult rifle to begain with I WOULD OWN A BATTLE RIFLE of .308 or higher.
@HadesmyBoa569 The fact there is also people that survived .30-06, 7.62x54 and even a .50BMG is that going to a bigger caliber for the heck of it although you cannot handle it nearly as well as the smaller caliber cartridge is stupid.
I think the problem with 5.56x45 is consistency. Sometimes it fragments, sometimes it dosen't. The 5.56x45 fails to fragment if the range increases,fired out of a short barrel. If it is not fragments a wound of 5.56 may be way too small to stop or injure fataly.
@Agent1W No bullets"will knock a person off their feet", bullets do not knock a human down-a misconception. There is no such thing as "knock down power", a bullets/cartridge effectiveness at neutralizing a target is properly refered to as "stopping power". However, a blast of 12 gauge buckshot at close range may in fact "wobble" a human being.
@ericr530 I ran into a patron at a gun shop who compared the 9mm and .45 pistol calibers. The former will get you better grouping, but the latter will "knock you off your feet". Stopping power is the idea I'm getting. If you get hit by a .45 slug, you're going to be halted, in contrast to "shrugging off" lesser slugs.
@Agent1W JHP bullets are used for self defensive purposes. I have both a 9mm pistol and a .45ACP pistol. The end result is that .45ACP is a better "stopper" because it's slug is more efficient at delivering energy into a human subject because even though it's velocity is slower it weighs twice as much 230gr. .45ACP vs 115gr for 9mm and expands much larger. Mass vs. velocity type thing. In actual practice though, a 115gr. 9mm FMJ will penetrate solid wood a little deeper than 230gr. .45ACP FMJ.
@ericr530 Indeed. The amount of energy that actually goes into the target upon impact is important because you don't really want too much penetration.
I actually have a S&W 4506(.45 ACP) but my old man recommended getting hold of a 9mm pistol(generally because ammo is much cheaper). I'll eventually get one so I can have both.
@Agent1W There is really not a great deal of diff from a 9mm to a .45. They both have advantages but a good shot from either will do the job and a bad shot from either will not. The .45 has no magical power to halt someone.
@shananagans5 That pretty much means that you're going to desire the advantage of carrying more ammo. 9mm is easy to carry around in bulk, 15 rounds per mag versus 8-12 for .45. If you know how to place your shots to stop someone, that's all it takes.
High-caliber pistol fans would prefer just simply the one-shot, one-kill philosophy, when in some cases, could make the difference between life and death.
@Agent1W Exactly.Also there are so many variables you just can't predict exactly what situation you are going to be in. I am a forensic psych and have reviewed many real life street fights and it seems to me having more rounds is more likely to be an advantage over having a bigger round. If I was in an area that limited me to 10, I would go with .45 but I am not so give me my 9mm and my 18+1. Good Day !!
@shananagans5 For police officers, I heard that they have to account for every bullet fired because professional use of firearms matters much in their careers. Not much leeway for them to blow off more rounds unless for correct reason.
My dad had a Glock 17 most of his years, 17 rd mags. He praised the reliability of the pistol, easy recoil and never jams.
@Agent1W Yea, dudy ammunition is ALWAYS accounted for. Practice ammo is too but they are allowed to buy and shot whenever they want. Many depts the officers own their guns and they can do whatever they want with that gun when not on duty but that does vary by dept.
Glocks are great. I don't own one simply because they don't fit my hand well. I know lots of people that have Glocks and they will do everything my Sig will and they are lighter at half the cost.
@shananagans5 Not all hands are created equal. I have handled(not shot) a friend's SIG and it is quite snug. I'd say it fits better than the S&W because it's not so big in size. Doesn't quite have that bulky engine block size.
@ericr530 Hey Fag Tell that to 2 deer Ive shot with 30-06 that Damn near did a Vertical 180 when Hit in the upper back area. A.308 can tea kettle your ass.
@SS13E3 Who and where are they? Where I live a very obese woman took 3 .45ACP FMJ rounds to the chest and lived, and a young man was shot through the jaw with .45ACP, does this mean the round is a poor stopper, I think not. Shot placement is key. Thousands of Iraqi's and many Taliban dead from 5.56, what's your point?
@SS13E3 Yes many insurgents that were shot with M855, a silly round since insurgents don't wear body armor, that is why our military should switch back to XM193 for this war. XM193 will fragment out a 16" or longer barrel most of the time.
A lot of the stories about the M16's deadly fragmenting ammo are mostly fabrications. The army tried to duplicate the reported effects of the ammo in a labatory and couldin't.
The problem with most 5.56 loads is that they don't consistently fragment at an optimal range as the barrel length decreases; the solution is using heavier loads.
@L0ENze1337 How heavy can a .223/5.56x45mm bullet possibly get? The heaviest I ever used was 62gr, which was not very accurate in barrels with a low twist rate.
@GoBlackwater Up to 80 gr. but these bullets are only fired in throated match guns. I've shot a couple of hundred rds. of 62 gr. through my 20" A2 1 in 9 and found they would shoot about 1" @ 100 yds on average, not exceptional but quite decent.
".22's are toys and i shoot them at each other and what happens.... nothing bounces off skin but leaves a good mark buy a real fucking gun."- Either a) this is an attempt at a joke, or b) you're an idiot ,c) you're on drugs or d) both b and c. Funny just last weekend I shot my .22lr at some pine 2x4's at 25yds. and it blew a hole clear through them. I guess you must be reffering to .22 airsoft. The .22lr I know according to the FBI kills more people each year than any other handgun cartridge.
I have seen a man walking around after shot himself in his chest 20 years ago when I was in the army, not US army. He was lucky to survive. The bullet went through his body unlike shown in this video. So fragmentation of the bullet may or may not happen. Actually hard to believe fragmentation will happen.
I think the problem with 5.56x45 is consistency. Sometimes it fragments, sometimes it dosen't. The 5.56x45 fails to fragment if the range increases,fired out of a short barrel. I even heard that fragmentation was different on each bullet even from the same manufacter.
So it really boils down to that all important paradigm-shot placement. A .22lr through the heart will kill far faster than a 9mm to each shoulder, both arms, both legs and each kidney.
@steamingpoopfart .22 Longrifle and .223 NATO are two different types of rounds. Can I shoot you with my girlfriends Ruger 10-22? I wanna see if your theory of a .22 bouncing off the skin is true. Please send me your address. Thank you.
@steamingpoopfart If you actually took my sarcasm as a threat, and that I would actually expect you to send me your adress and me come there to shoot you, then you are mistaken. Much like I could not tell if you were serious or joking about .22 actually bouncing off peoples skin. I think you were serious.
Very well, I concur, some ballistic studies were done in the past using cadavers. While it's quite true ballistic gelatin is not a human medium, it is a fairly reasonable approximation . Admittedly, I've never served in combat, but I know plenty of folks who have and very few have complained about the 5.56 round being ineffective. I grow tired of these BS anectdotal stories of my bud blah blah shot an insurgent 6 times in the chest and he kept laughing and charging at him ...blah...blah.
My original point was a comment on the statement in the video that, The modern M-16 cartridge.I dont know anybody whos walking around whos been hit by one. Bullets can have a measurable amount of probable lethality..but the human body is not a block of ballistic gelatin. The effects of bullets are often unpredictable and I simply used General Petraeus as a high profile example.
The bullet still, did not hit his heart directly or spinal column, which is normally fatal. Statistically 75% of people who are shot survive. An obese woman where I live took three .45ACP FMJ rounds to the chest and lived, none of them hit a vital area/organ. I'm rather doubtful though, that handgun enthusiasts are ready to denounce .45ACP as a poor manstopper. .22LR kills more people each year than any other caliber. What exactly is your point?
Petraeus had a laceration to a large pulmonary artery and a lacerated pulmonary vein. A small entrance wound was located in the front, right, middle of his chest with a larger exit wound that shattered his sixth rib in the back of his rib cage. Dr. Frist made a 12-inch incision and put his hand on the lung to stop the bleeding. A small part of the damaged lung was resected and the damaged rib was also resected. The blood vessels were sutured shut and the wound closed.
General David Patraeus, current Commander, U.S. Central Command. In 1991, as battalion commander of the 187th Infantry, he was accidentally shot in the chest during a live-fire exercise when a soldier tripped and his M-16 rifle discharged. He was taken to Vanderbilt University Medical Center, Nashville, Tennessee, where he was operated on by future U.S. Senator Bill Frist. The hospital released him early after he did fifty push ups without resting, just a few days after the accident.
That's funny of the 20 or so Gulf war vets I've talked to when asked about the 5.56 never really complained about it's stopping power.Even someone shot with a bb gun isn't going to turn around like they were hit by a snowball- not to start a fight but that sounds like BS to me.The US military needs to do two things: 1) Equip all weapons in service with the gas piston system, which several manufacturers now offer,2) Go back to XM193 ammo which tumbles and fragments in the body, instead of m855.
The 5.56 is extremely weak in the stopping power department. One of my buds shot an insurgent in the back with his M4 and the guy just turned around to see who shot him. The bullet simply does not have enough mass to cause serious problems, especially when FMJ Ball ammo is used. The problem is made worse when the insurgents load up on drugs and shoot up with adrenaline, they become almost unstoppable. We need to at least switch to the 6.5/6.8, but I'd like to see us back at the 7.62 NATO.
In my opinion 6.5mm is optimal caliber for infantry riflemen. The 7,62 NATO has too much recoil, and even it should be scaled down to 7mm. Slightly smaller dia. and longer high BC bullets maintain their velocity better and are more lethal. The 6.5 Creedmoor or the same cartridge necked up to 7mm would be more perfect.
I have been looking into the 6.8 and 6.5 and I like the 6.5. I like the 7.62 NATO even better, but the biggest problem is not the recoil but the weight of the ammo. I've carried about 10 M14 mags and the weight is real heavy, for the same weight I could carry about 25 to 30 mags of 5.56 ammo. I'd like to see the 6.5 or something that has more stopping power, the 5.56 is just a .22LR on steroids.
Yes it does, my main issued-weapon is an M14 and we shoot 7.62 NATO rounds through it. Unless it has been gunsmithed or modified to shoot something else, the M14 is chambered for the 7.62 NATO round, which is pretty much the same as the .308 Winchester.
I think you're referring to the 7.62 x 39, which is what the AK47 series is chambered in. There are many calibers that are 7.62, such as the 30.06 ("thirty ought six"), 30 Carbine, 7.62 Russian, .308 Win, 30-30, and so on.
@mbenson2790 No, not really. They are two different rounds. The 7.62x51 (the civilian version is .308 Winchester) is much bigger and used for battle rifles and some sniper rifles, while the 5.56x54 (the civilian version is .223) is the standard round of all NATO assault rifles.
Regardless. Any bullet is lethal. Any bullet is a threat. No matter where your shot with whatever caliber bullet its gonna hurt. Your going to bleed. You will probably soil your self loose your breath and awareness. And you still havent got the next round coming for you. I would prefer something a little bigger personally but the 5.56 is an ok round.
Also The future weapons guy is just trying to sell the guns he advertises. He is full of shit. Wherever the money is at so is he.
several people i know that are active duty seem to agree that 5.56 takes a few shots to put somebody down, where as larger rounds like 7.62 have much more stopping power.
It might be propaganda. I dont really know and dont really know what to believe anymore. So fuck it i guess. People are half and half with the 5.56 and M4 it seems like. Oh well
It's impressive on paper this fragmentaion, but there are quite a few problems with it. If the 5.56x45 is fired from too short a barrel (like the M4) then it will not fragment and have effects similar to a .22 LR. If the 5.56x45 hits minimal tissue, it will also fail to fragment. The 5.56x45 will also not fragment very well at long distance. The consistency of the 5.56x45 is poor at best, larger rounds like the 7.62x51 are much more consistent in regards to lethality regardless of barrel length.
They aren't. These are rumors that are usually from "a friend" or "someone I knew". A majority of these "hits" are either to the extremities or complete misses.
A bullet is a bullet is a bullet. The 7.62 requires it to yaw (tumble) in order to maximize its wound channel otherwise its hole is smaller than a 9mm. The 5.56 does the same but might fragment. If it only yaw's then it still makes a decent sized wound channel.
Alot of insurgents encountered are on drugs, so they can take alot of hits and still keep going with out feeling anything untill they pass out of blood loss.
@SimonLy90 because, bullets aren't magical things that just cause someone to lay down like in the movies. Yes, even the 308's of today and the 30-06 of ww2 were very unlikely to drop someone permanently unless the spine got hit. Get over it.
@SimonLy90 because the range the shot is fired from has a lot to do with the terminal ballistics. Shooting somebody at close range may not result in the greatest damage because the bullet has too much energy&neatly drills a hole thru-n-thru enemy, too far away and the 5.56mm doesn't have enough energy to cause yaw or "tumbling". So at close range it may be a good idea to go to full-auto. Russians don't have that problem because they use fragmentary bullets which is what the USA should do also.
@oeyesea ALL spitzer shaped (ie pointy) bullets will yaw when they hit a medium denser than air. However, specific bullet shape and weight will determine WHEN it will yaw. 5.56mm typically yaws at 10cm of penetration. 7.62x39mm (ie AK rounds) yaw after 30cm. The sooner the yaw the better. Further, velocity is important. Faster impact velocities usually mean bullet fragmentation. 5.56mm will usually not fragment at velocities lower than 2500fps. 7.62x39mm usually doesn't frag at all.
That is correct xxxjonnydangerousxxx, 20" A2 or A3 will glean the maximum energy @1300ft./lbs from a current military barrel,i really dislike the M4 barrel profile,heat problems, and am going to opt for a heavy possibly stainless bull for a carbine weapon. The weight of the ammo isn't really a issue with 6.8 spc it's just that the US Army wants to justify a new cartridge which requires a greater expenditure of $, with marginal gains in energy and somewhat higher expenditures in raw materials.
the 5.56x45mm NATO is a great round when fired from an M16A4 full length barrel, but the army is planning on fielding the FN SCAR which has a standard length of 14" and a CQB/C length of 10" so as i stated previously the reflexive firing will become the new doctrine and the 5.56 will stay. ammuniton weight reduction and volume expansion is a viable argument for keeping the 5.56. how many rounds does it take you to kill a man running at 100 meters in a city while shaking from adrenaline and fear?
an M855 or SS109 for civilian rounds, passes right through the body of an insurgent. unless you hit a bone or the bullet cuts through the heart or spine your chance of a one shot kill at center mass aiming is low. hence the us army reflexive fire training. Fire quickly, 2-3 rounds centermass of a target. Also the reasoning behind mass issue of the Aimpoint Comp M4 CCO. the full length M16 muzzle velocity is greater then the M4, causing easier fracture of the bullet in a human target.
(comment#1)5.56mmx45(.223 caliber)was an already commercial available cartridge.Develope back either in the 1930s or '40s I read in a gun magazine.When the U.S. military was looking for a light weight intermediate assault rifle round in the late '50s.There it was,ready to go(remember,the little round wasn't made up on a drawling board with years of thinking).Compare to the AK-47's 7.62mmx39,that's a true military assault rifle round.
the AK47's 7.62x39mm is a hunk of shit at range. by that i mean anything past like 150 yards. even chambered in an SKS the accuracy is no match for a 5.56 and at further distances the 5.56 actually hits harder.
anything less than 150 yards the AK has the advantage, however when the M16 was designed, it was designed in mind that the common soldier would be fighting on an open field agaisnt the soviets.
Last time I checked,from FBI crime statistics, an icepick delivers lethal,curved, penetrative wounds. Give me some names or instances or some kind of info where an enemy combatant has recieved a straight though the body wound which a steel tipped 5.56/.223 or armor piercing wound would produce in a center mass shot and has fought valiantly afterwards.
Just simply find yourself an Iraq or Afghanistan vet and ask. Within a minute you'll have your example. If you want examples from literature, try reading Black Hawk Down. In it there are multiple instances where Somali militiamen shot by US troops simply walked away, or worse just kept fighting. Since they adopted the SS109 penetrator round in the mid-80's the 5.56mm has been junk. Do some actual research on this and you'll see.
Here is what I will say in response to that. If there was nothing to be gained by upgrading the 5.56mm round and the M16/M4 that its used in, why did SOCOM develop the 6.8 SPC round? Our special forces soldiers dont like to waste time or effort, so if this round wasnt needed they wouldnt have developed it. The fact that the did speaks volumes about the quality of the 5.56mm. You are entitled to your opinion, but given the facts I'll side with our SF and not you. Sorry. We need a new round.
And as far as assuming that I didnt comprehend what I read I"ll tell you this. I served in the USMC for 4 years and carried and fired the M16 so I suspect I know it personally better than you do. Men I served with are currently fighting in A-stan and one thing Ive heard from them over and over is that the 5.56mm ISNT CUTTING IT in combat over there. Now how about you FULLY read that.
not to rag on your service but have you actually shot and killed someone with that rifle? there is actual scientific information concerning the lethality of the 5.56.
i will agree in close range combat the 6.8 will outperform the 5.56 with both bullets being FMJ's.
It's an inherent nature of short fat bullets to be inaccurate, especially from a MASS PRODUCED SERVICE RIFLE.
SF usually engage in CQB so i understand their need, for the infantryman no.
Actually the ballistic coefficient of the 6.8 SPC round is better than the 5.56mm. At long range it OUTPERFORMS the 5.56mm in both accuracy and lethality. At ranges over 300m it is TWICE as lethal as the 5.56mm, which is why SF developed it in the first place.Of course if they didnt "shoot and kill" with it they must not know what they are talking about right? I love it when the amateurs in the rear try and show off. You just make yourself look more ignorant with each post. Give it a rest.
so i guess the difference between .283 and .292 is a big difference.
it's already proven that the 5.56 is more accurate by several benchrest shooters. it's also a well known fact the the smaller caliber the more accurate it becomes. that is common knowledge to anyone with an understanding of ballistics
the BULLET ITSELF is ALWAYS the determing factor in stopping power. not the caliber.
personally everytime i hear stories about the 5.56 not cutting i think of the shittiest shots around because i have witnessed killed animals larger than a person with the 223. Hell my grandfather use to shoot deer with his old 222 rem and that's even smaller.
you're only gaining 300 ft lbs of energy around 100 yards and 100 ftlbs at 500 yards. That's not much more when you're already getting plastered by over 1000ft lbs at 100. MORE THAN ENOUGH to shread vitals
frankly i don't care what SF say or any other army junky. it's just another spending project that won't go anywhere like the OICW, XM8, and probably the FN SCAR program.
it's easier to switch to a better bullet that to rebarrel all of those rifles. for special forces use, i say hell yeah. to apply to all infantry no. Downrange the ballistics are nill with a FMJ bullet.
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Oh I see..you dont care what the troops say...YOU KNOW BETTER. Thats about what I thought you'd say. So until you get your little peckerwood ass into uniform and walk the walk..SHUT THE FUCK UP
no i don't care what they say. i'm sorry but everytime i hear that excuse i don't feel bad for someone who volunteered to be there. you knew the goddamn consequences of joining up and if you don't like the rifle you are equipped with don't join. it's not like you weren't given a choice either. i had several uncles in the service across all branches, my grandfather, my father, my cousins....ALL OF THEM TOLD ME TO NOT JOIN. i was a little army kid all my life until i hit 18.
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Maybe they knew you couldnt cut it? Now you want to blab on and on about killing game? Game dont shoot back you pussy. Im tired of you. You bore me. Now go back to your gun magazine and keep dreaming about what it would be like to be a man.
why don't you keep jacking off to that wannabe navy seal video of mack shooting the M468 cause thats the only evidence you got
you're right game dont shoot back, but neither does a raghead if you shoot the mother fucker where you're suppose to shoot them and not blind fire at something you think is the target.
i looked at all the facts, it took 50k rounds to kill one gook in vietnam with JUST an M16. that's called poor shooting
here's the facts: i never been shot at, you never been shot. you never killed anybody. i never killed anybody.
i have years of actual weapon knowledge. you have 4 years of firing one fuckin rifle.
you gun ho army fucks that never saw combat crack me up because think stopping power will make up for you're lack of marksmanship. i can place 5 shots into a nickel size group with my 223 at 250 yards. that's about the same area as a human eye and you tell me people have problems with the 5.56?
Wow , it sounds like quite a few folks actually need to do a little research on wound ballistics. Just because a bullet doesn't expand or tumble in a human or other animal body does not mean it won't easily kill. The deeper a bullet penetrates the more likely it is going to hit a major organ or artery. The ss109 will penetrate level III armor(steel plate) at over 200yds. Even if it couldn't which it well can, the shock of blunt force trauma produced by the bullet will cause cardiac failure.
That last comment assumes a hit to a vital area. In that case with a center mass shot 5.56 will easily penetrate the sternum,lungs ,heart with no vest, and nearly as deep with.7.62X39 will do the same. Most armor only offers full protection from handguns and shrapnel. So millitary steel tiped /or core bullets will penetrate steel plate vests easily at considerable distances, This is what they are designed for.Even if the plate stops the bullet, the blunt force trauma can kill with a rifle round.
Too bad the M16 bullet currently in use isnt the one they are talking about in this video. What you say? The old M193 5.56mm ball round was capable of tumbling as described here. Too bad we stopped using it in the mid 80's. Now we use the SS109 round with steel penetrator core that goes through the human body like an ice pick. No tumbling, no hydostatic shock and usually NO KILL. Since it is a bullet it will kill and do damage, yet if its so good why have our own spec ops developed the 6.8 SPC??
Yes, and it goes through the human body like an icepick, doing nearly no damage unless it hits bone or an organ. Thats why now the M16/M4 isnt effective at killing beyond 300 meters. Yes its accurate as hell and you'll HIT your target, the bad part is that he'll just walk away, or keep shooting back at you. This is why we need the 6.8 SPC round in the M16 yesterday.
Dude, you can hit an enemy in the stomach with a 7.62mm NATO round, and he'd still be alive enough to bleed out for a few hours. In the meantime, he could still get his bearings straight and fire back at you.
YOU NEED TO HIT A VITAL ORGAN REGARDLESS OF WHAT CALIBER YOU USE, DUMBASS. Otherwise, that "one-shot-one-kill" notion falls apart with most rounds.
Hell, even with a 50 cal, if you barely nick the side of your enemy, he'll just have a graze wound that he probably won't instantly feel.
An enemy hit by a 7.62 x 51 NATO isnt getting back up and fighting with a "stomach wound". He may live, but he is done for that day and may after. However, a 5.56 x 45 round would leave him capable of fighting, that was the whole point. Aiming and hitting center mass with a rifle in .223 is easy because its an accurate round but it just isnt powerful enough. As far as your "dumbass" comment, I'll just say that when YOU can hit ANYTHING with a rifle at long range like I used to I'll listen to you
Dude, from a tactically conservative standpoint, as long as the enemy is alive and breathing, you have to assume that he's capable of still firing back at you. It'd be stupid to take any chances and assume that he's "done for the day" and turn your back on him if you don't hit him where it really hurts.
And let me guess: The soldiers mentioning the lack of stopping power used semi-auto and never aimed at the vital parts, right? Well guess what? They aren't even using it as it's inteded to be used.
The 5.56mm is designed to make up for its lack of weight/size by its accuracy in RAPID fire, not just semi-auto. If you can't aim for vitals, then the need to use the selector switch is obvious: They have to stop spoiling themselves with semi auto and actually learn when/how to use burst/full-auto.
The ss109 was adopted to penetrate Level 3 armor vests,steel trauma plate. This is what it does well at relatively long distances. I don't see where this would matter against a Taliban fighter or an Iraqi insurgent which it would be highly unlikely that they would wear one. That book was written by a journalist based on anectdotal accounts. While I''m not saying the soldiers were lying the stories could be embellished given the status of the author. The argument then is the ss109 will kill.
One does not have to consult with the cheif of cardiolgy at Walter Reed to determine that a hole shot straight through a human heart,even from a small caliber projectile will kill within seconds, leaving someone to fight about 10-15 sec. before the adreneline is used up. a upper spinal cord hit is instantly fatal. If your lungs collapse from being shot through an enemy combatant isn't going to fight very long either.The XM193 does a better job than ss109 because of the terrible wound it causes.
Even given that the SS109 WILL quickly kill IF IN A VITAL AREA. According to the FBI more civilians are killed with .22 rimfire than any other caliber. The 5.56 has 10x the energy of .22 rimfire so your, nothing under .30 caliber projectile has enough power to quickly subdue an attacker assumption doesn't really hold up well. The US military doesn't exclusively use ss109 only anyway. Enemy combatants with holes shot through their hearts or lungs or spines don't walk away to fight another day.
And at ranges longer than 300m if you use burst or full auto (M4) you dont get more than one hit anyway. Point is that this is and always has been a very limited round. Our guys arent being issued M14's in Iraq and A-stan for no reason. The 5.56mm was meant to kill VARMINTS not people. This is why Im still writing letters to congress to get our troops an M16/M4 chambered in 6.8 SPC. Maybe instead of writing here you will join me and write to your congressperson asking them to address this issue.
We havent killed millions of anything with the 5.56mm. Most of the NVA, Taliban and Iraqis that were killed were the victims of US airpower. And nobody said the 5.56mm wouldnt kill. Just that it doesnt inflict enough damage to be immediately fatal or debilitating in many cases. And finally, the .223 is a VARMINT cartridge. Thats actually a classification used to describe ammo INCLUDING the .223. Look it up, do some research.
Oh and the US is the only military that uses the M16?! Many calibers,save .50 don't cause instant death even if it is a shot in the vital areas . The concept of instant stopping power is a myth anyway. .223 IS NOW classified as a varmit cartridge, It was orginally developed from the .222 Rem. varmit round for the military. I don't need to look it up, I shoot it every weekend through my AR. With FMJ bullets that don't expand, not enough energy is deposited,whether 5.56 or 6.8,or .30
Dude, have you ever been shot with a 5.56 before? Unless you have and could perfectly function normally yourself, you're crock full of shit calling it a "varmint" cartridge.
We're comparing bullets that have only 1~2mm of difference in diameter and cartriges that have less than 0.02 oz of difference in powder. Most rounds don't have a one-shot kill effect unless you aim at the right places. Not to mention other factors will come into play in choosing ammo (weapon weight, mag capacity, recoil).
I think he is one of those guys who feels the need to have the power of .300 Win. mag in a 8 pound military rifle. Yes, perhaps I overstated it a bit, how about this. The 5.56 has succesfully caused countless thousands of deaths worldwide. the .223 is in fact today classifed as a varmit cartridge but it works very well on humans also. It however, sucks for hunting deer. Unless you decapitiate someone, they will usually have at least a few seconds of fight left in them no matter what caliber.
I carried one of these pieces of junk for years. I dont need it chambered in a magnum cartridge, just one thats light in weight and more lethal like the the 6.8 SPC. The main reason the 5.56mm was chosen was weight. Its not as heavy to carry 300 rounds of 5.56 as it is to carry 7.62. But when the round isnt powerful enough for combat an upgrade is called for. Our own Special Forces saw this and created a new round (6.8 SPC) that overcame the problem. Maybe argue with some members of SF about it.
The bullets themselves arent relevant, its the effect they have. The M16 used to be more lethal when we used the M193 ball round (which tended to fragment). We now have the SS109 and while its great for penetrating helmets or body armor, on the human body its effects are limited. And actually I was hit with a bullet frag from an M16 in the thumb at the range at Camp Lejeune, which is probably closer than you've come to being shot with one. The round is junk. Argue all you want, it wont change.
Actually it may be good for us civilian AR shooters if the military upgrades to 6.8 Rem. SPC. There will be so much surplus 5.56 laying around that it will be practically given away. That would be great, as I'm tired of paying 40 cents a round.
It would be nice, but it will never happen. Those assholes in Congress dont care about how good or bad our weapons are, just so long as they are expensive.
No its not the same thing, never said that. However being hit with one in the chest doesnt do much to stop a man either. Thats why the enemy that we shoot with this round tend to keep on running, shooting and fighting for awhile. Thats why we need a more powerful round.
Why don't they just move up to a 77gr it has close to the same stopping power as a 30 caliber. The military could save money and have more stopping power.
If they were going to play around with the ballistics the why not just use the 6.8 SPC? Its already been developed and tested, has a much better ballistic coefficent than the 5.56 and is therefore more lethal and more accurate. Especially at ranges above 300m, where much of the combat in Afghanistan takes place. After all those factors consider that all that needs replacing in the current M16/M4 is the barrel, bolt and extractor. Seems like a no-brainer. Change to the 6.8 SPC.
or they could just use ballistic tip ammunition and save money on replacement barrels. this bullshit that the military isn't allowed to use anything but FMJ's is complete bullshit. ballistic tips kill faster, plain and simple.
Everything the 6.8 does, the 308 does better and it's already standardized. this push the 6.8 conversion is a joke. you cannont beat the accuracy of the 5.56 or the 308.
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Really? So its your informed opinion that now the 7.62 round is lighter in weight than the 6.8? Because thats the primary factor..WEIGHT. If you'd ever put on 80 pounds of gear, a 9 lb rifle and then had to carry all that shit 25 miles and then FIGHT you might realize that a lighter weight round can save the grunt about 10 pounds of weight. When you have to lug 330 rounds or more everyplace you go any weight you can save is a godsend.
that was just one bullet entering the body, imagine a three round burst hitting you i dont think there is anyway you gonna be walking away from that. Never been into battle but i would rather have more "less potent" rounds than having less "more powerful" rounds.
matt1523 2 months ago
ya the reason you don't see anyone walking around after they got hit is because they get hit with a 50 right after.
trigun890 4 months ago
you cant just use a blanket statement and say 5.56mm is ineffective. Well which load? 62gr green tip? 77gr smk? 55gr fmj? Out of what barrel? What twist? What distance? At what impact angle? On what size person? Theres dozens of variables.
In the end, being hit by one is not good, either way. Ive spoken to vietnam vets with 1st hand experience who said it would drop VC like a sack of shit. But that was a 20" barrel with a 55gr bullet at close/medium ranges.
labartic 4 months ago
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esh325 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@labartic The round can be effective some times, and ineffective some times. Even back in Vietnam the round could have right through the torsos of people without yawing or fragmenting leaving small wounds. I have a report by an army doctor where he documents this.
esh325 4 months ago
@labartic ya every situation is different. I have heard the near opposite from Vietnam and first hand I have shot deer in the heart and lungs with a 30-06 and seen them run over a hundred yards and have seen less perfect shots from a .223 drop them where they stood.
logipi79 3 months ago
@mark3777 are you freaking serious? You've watched videos, magazines, and played freaking paintball and COD and you think you know what you talking about? I had to try not to laugh my freaking ass off at you're comment. Until you've seen what the 5.56 does to somebody, and watched them hit the ground like a rock behind your sights, you can sit down and shot the freak up. Freaking AK fanboy. Leave such discussions to the real men, who have taken this weapon into battle, and seen its capabilities
SamJ1986 4 months ago
@SamJ1986 i have taken it into battle and wasnt impressed, at all. id sure as shit take an ak over an m4 any day. especially when it comes to reliability and penetration. What if your target is wearing armor of any kind. the 556 stops, and comes completely apart. the 7.62x39 also stops, but breaks ribs and punctures lungs. seen that first hand. but if you really want the job done..bring back the m1a...
zooders 2 days ago
ive read some magazines, watched all the videos on youtube, know all the history and specs, and own a rifle..TRUST me i know what im saying when i tell you the 5.56 is ineffective. did i mention i have a background in paintball, airsoft, and videogames. and i dare you to make a video so i can criticize it for not being tactical. its only a matter of time till i can go to a tactical class for a week then wooo...bring it im the top dawg uhh.
mark3777 6 months ago
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SupremeAmerican 6 months ago
@SupremeAmerican Sorry, but 7.62x39 rounds are supersonic out to 475 meters, which is about the effective range of the 5.56.
There's nothing special about the speed of sound that damages tissue; you don't know what you're talking about.
ppitm 5 months ago
@ppitm but the speed of the bullet when entering tissue does matter. well and a lot of other variables. the weight of the bullet, angle of entry, temperature, hardness of bullet, shape of bullet, diameter of bullet, like mentioned speed of bullet, direction and speed of rotation. all this has to be taken into account when wanting accurate results of damage of tissues
zooders 2 days ago
Yeah right. There are LOTS of people still alive after being hit by that said bullet here!
masterDevis 6 months ago
@masterDevis Yes, there are. The Marine is unaware that David Petraeus actually got shot in the chest with a M16 and survived. He did like 100 push ups while he was recovering and was released early. I don't think he would have made it to a General if the round did what it was suppose to do.
esh325 6 months ago
@esh325 Dios mio! Talk about a lucky bastard!
masterDevis 6 months ago
The problem is that fragmentation only happens at very high velocities so the enemy has to be a relatively close range. Once you get below that fragmentation velocity you just poke .22 holes through people. Plus the heavier 62 grain bullet doesn't frag like that.
disturbedone5009 7 months ago
The new M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round the military recently issued the troops outperformed the 7.62 NATO through testing of more then a million rounds.
killerex010 8 months ago
@killerex010 If that was true, then why is the army still buying 7.62x51 weapons and ordering 7.62x51?
esh325 7 months ago
@esh325 You can look it up. There are numerous reports. Google m855a1 7.62
killerex010 7 months ago
@killerex010 Yeah, they said it, but that doesn't make it true. They are comparing a basically unchanged 50 year old loading of the 7.62x51 and then comparing it to a new version of the 5.56x45 then saying its superior. If it was totally superior then all the armed forces would be dropping their 7.62x51 for 5.56x45 weapons,which they aren't.
esh325 7 months ago
@esh325 They are saying the M855A1 is better then the M80 at penetrating and tissue damage
killerex010 7 months ago
@killerex010 In those areas, yes.
esh325 7 months ago
@killerex010 thats great dude...but what happens if your target happens to be shooting at you and pinning a position down and hes say 600 meters away...have fun with your glorified 22
zooders 2 days ago
@zooders Call in air support, duh!
killerex010 2 days ago
@killerex010 yeah okay...for one enemy at 600 meters beyond your position...
zooders 1 day ago
@zooders Yeah im sure the pilot would love to unload some rockets and ammo since theres nothing much else happening.
killerex010 1 day ago
Lethality depends on shot placement.
ryeable 9 months ago
@Pill88Dickle I think this video is fairly accurate. While the 5.56mm is not a death ray, the way some folks carry on about it you'd think our soldiers were carrying a Daisy Red Rider into combat. Dense cover can affect even 7.62x51. You really can't hit what you can't see anyway.
ericr530 9 months ago
@Pill88Dickle Thanks for the ballistics educational tidbit, sorry to be smug, but I'm well aware of the Hague and Geneva conventions. I was just scoffing at the "you can't kill anything unless you have a .30 cal." crowd. Yes, barrel length in the AR15/M16 platform is a major consideration.
ericr530 9 months ago
I should say older designs such as the M14 are not the best design for CQB. SA does offer the SOCOM but this weapons muzzle blast and recoil are fierce even compared to 6.8 AR15 and it looses a great deal of accuracy compared to it's 22" full size bretheren. This though, is largely a non-issue inside of 100yds. though.
ericr530 9 months ago
As such, 6.8SPC satisfies the old guard traditional yearning of the military for a rifle cartridge of .30 cal. energy that can incapacitate humans even with somewhat poor shot placement and military logisticians which operate in cost shavings world that strive for an ever better equipped soldier that's increasingly lighter with gear , has a short powerful but versatile weapon older designs such as the M14 which although is a prima donna for snipering is not a very portable weapon.
ericr530 9 months ago
@Pill88Dickle I see 6.8 SPC as a good compromise between overkill and portability. The 5.56mm stopping power on humans is largely a non-issue to me since 5.56 balistic tip-Hornady TAP, or XM 193 out of at least 15.5" of barrel with proper shot placement is absolutely devastating to the human body. Anyway though, the 6.8SPC has more energy than 5.56mm or 7.62x39mm, has much less recoil than 7.62x51mm NATO, is quite portable in loaded magazines and fits the AR15/M16 platform perfectly.
ericr530 9 months ago
@Pill88Dickle Neither is the 7.62x39....actually people do hunt deer with .223 but ive never heard of someone hunting with 7.62x39
bearsfan1294 10 months ago
@bearsfan1294 I wouldn't hunt with either, .243 WIN min,and that would be on does. .30-30 would be better. I hate to say it but both 5.56mmNATO and 7.62x39mm are designed to kill humans,sorry for my frankness.
ericr530 9 months ago
M16 should have been chambered in .25 ACP round. Its the most lethal one
tsxws 10 months ago
@tsxws Either you're pulling all of our chains, or you need to put the crackpipe down.
ericr530 9 months ago
oh please.
556 does nothing of the sort.
it goes in, it goes out. it has low hydrostatic shock compared to most other options.
NoahHoe 10 months ago
2 many of you spoke abaut the 223 instate of the 5,56 nato !!!!!
listen ther is a big diference between both then the 223 is for civilen hunting service wiel the 5,56 nato is for the melitery service and thows guys knows wat are they talken abut so pls just think aubaut wat you wright befor you do.
im not from the usa but my origen contruy use the M 16a2 and the M4a1 so i know wat im talking abut.
yardcontrol 10 months ago
this guy doesnt know crap, he just put on some tiger stripes and started talkin about computer simulations. i've shot the 5.56 enough (using it to kill) to know that those bullets always come apart like it shows. its a proven fact that past 200 meters it just punches holes instead of doing a 180 to go base first. assuming its a 20 inch barrel.
hellcat370 11 months ago
Nice
MegaLucKyDAy 11 months ago
0:30 Im scared, I want a M16.
cybertron1000s 1 year ago
Millions of people Have survived AK47 gunshots, Just go down to the VA and Ask A bunch of war veterans. This bullshit is just advertisement hype for Ar15 fan boys. I would never get an Assult rifle to begain with I WOULD OWN A BATTLE RIFLE of .308 or higher.
HadesmyBoa569 1 year ago
@HadesmyBoa569 The fact there is also people that survived .30-06, 7.62x54 and even a .50BMG is that going to a bigger caliber for the heck of it although you cannot handle it nearly as well as the smaller caliber cartridge is stupid.
1ohtaf1 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
U got a point here!!!
I think the problem with 5.56x45 is consistency. Sometimes it fragments, sometimes it dosen't. The 5.56x45 fails to fragment if the range increases,fired out of a short barrel. If it is not fragments a wound of 5.56 may be way too small to stop or injure fataly.
esh325
alecfromelatvia 1 year ago
The m249 Machine gun shoots the same Bullets the m16 does. so you can use it with a mag when you run out of the belt amo... Its sexy o;
TheChunkyKong 1 year ago
I guess that guy doens't know that many people.... alive that is....
bioweaponsystem154 1 year ago
It's just a shame that even though such a round may or may not fragment, it's not guaranteed to knock the enemy off their feet.
Agent1W 1 year ago
@Agent1W No bullets"will knock a person off their feet", bullets do not knock a human down-a misconception. There is no such thing as "knock down power", a bullets/cartridge effectiveness at neutralizing a target is properly refered to as "stopping power". However, a blast of 12 gauge buckshot at close range may in fact "wobble" a human being.
ericr530 1 year ago
@ericr530 I ran into a patron at a gun shop who compared the 9mm and .45 pistol calibers. The former will get you better grouping, but the latter will "knock you off your feet". Stopping power is the idea I'm getting. If you get hit by a .45 slug, you're going to be halted, in contrast to "shrugging off" lesser slugs.
Agent1W 1 year ago
@Agent1W JHP bullets are used for self defensive purposes. I have both a 9mm pistol and a .45ACP pistol. The end result is that .45ACP is a better "stopper" because it's slug is more efficient at delivering energy into a human subject because even though it's velocity is slower it weighs twice as much 230gr. .45ACP vs 115gr for 9mm and expands much larger. Mass vs. velocity type thing. In actual practice though, a 115gr. 9mm FMJ will penetrate solid wood a little deeper than 230gr. .45ACP FMJ.
ericr530 1 year ago
@ericr530 Indeed. The amount of energy that actually goes into the target upon impact is important because you don't really want too much penetration.
I actually have a S&W 4506(.45 ACP) but my old man recommended getting hold of a 9mm pistol(generally because ammo is much cheaper). I'll eventually get one so I can have both.
Agent1W 1 year ago
@Agent1W There is really not a great deal of diff from a 9mm to a .45. They both have advantages but a good shot from either will do the job and a bad shot from either will not. The .45 has no magical power to halt someone.
shananagans5 1 year ago
@shananagans5 That pretty much means that you're going to desire the advantage of carrying more ammo. 9mm is easy to carry around in bulk, 15 rounds per mag versus 8-12 for .45. If you know how to place your shots to stop someone, that's all it takes.
High-caliber pistol fans would prefer just simply the one-shot, one-kill philosophy, when in some cases, could make the difference between life and death.
Agent1W 1 year ago
@Agent1W Exactly.Also there are so many variables you just can't predict exactly what situation you are going to be in. I am a forensic psych and have reviewed many real life street fights and it seems to me having more rounds is more likely to be an advantage over having a bigger round. If I was in an area that limited me to 10, I would go with .45 but I am not so give me my 9mm and my 18+1. Good Day !!
shananagans5 1 year ago
@shananagans5 For police officers, I heard that they have to account for every bullet fired because professional use of firearms matters much in their careers. Not much leeway for them to blow off more rounds unless for correct reason.
My dad had a Glock 17 most of his years, 17 rd mags. He praised the reliability of the pistol, easy recoil and never jams.
Agent1W 1 year ago
@Agent1W Yea, dudy ammunition is ALWAYS accounted for. Practice ammo is too but they are allowed to buy and shot whenever they want. Many depts the officers own their guns and they can do whatever they want with that gun when not on duty but that does vary by dept.
Glocks are great. I don't own one simply because they don't fit my hand well. I know lots of people that have Glocks and they will do everything my Sig will and they are lighter at half the cost.
shananagans5 1 year ago
@shananagans5 Not all hands are created equal. I have handled(not shot) a friend's SIG and it is quite snug. I'd say it fits better than the S&W because it's not so big in size. Doesn't quite have that bulky engine block size.
Agent1W 1 year ago
@Agent1W I love my Sig 226. Never had one of their rifles though.
shananagans5 1 year ago
@ericr530 Hey Fag Tell that to 2 deer Ive shot with 30-06 that Damn near did a Vertical 180 when Hit in the upper back area. A.308 can tea kettle your ass.
HadesmyBoa569 1 year ago
@HadesmyBoa569 WTF are you talking about, have you been smoking crack? What the hell do .30-06 and .308 Win have to do with 5.56 NATO??????
ericr530 1 year ago
there are a shitload of people walking around having been shot with HP or mil spec isue 5.56,
a number of them survived limb shots, and some chest shots
SS13E3 1 year ago
@SS13E3 Who and where are they? Where I live a very obese woman took 3 .45ACP FMJ rounds to the chest and lived, and a young man was shot through the jaw with .45ACP, does this mean the round is a poor stopper, I think not. Shot placement is key. Thousands of Iraqi's and many Taliban dead from 5.56, what's your point?
ericr530 1 year ago
@ericr530
this guy is making a poor attempt to glorify the round
a huge number of insurgents came back to fight another day because their friends carried them off to safety, thats my point.
SS13E3 1 year ago
@SS13E3 Yes many insurgents that were shot with M855, a silly round since insurgents don't wear body armor, that is why our military should switch back to XM193 for this war. XM193 will fragment out a 16" or longer barrel most of the time.
ericr530 1 year ago
@steamingpoopfart hey wanna let me blast you with my.22? then we will see if it bounces.
9106434 1 year ago
A lot of the stories about the M16's deadly fragmenting ammo are mostly fabrications. The army tried to duplicate the reported effects of the ammo in a labatory and couldin't.
esh325 1 year ago
The problem with most 5.56 loads is that they don't consistently fragment at an optimal range as the barrel length decreases; the solution is using heavier loads.
L0ENze1337 1 year ago
@L0ENze1337 How heavy can a .223/5.56x45mm bullet possibly get? The heaviest I ever used was 62gr, which was not very accurate in barrels with a low twist rate.
GoBlackwater 1 year ago
@GoBlackwater Up to 80 gr. but these bullets are only fired in throated match guns. I've shot a couple of hundred rds. of 62 gr. through my 20" A2 1 in 9 and found they would shoot about 1" @ 100 yds on average, not exceptional but quite decent.
ericr530 1 year ago
".22's are toys and i shoot them at each other and what happens.... nothing bounces off skin but leaves a good mark buy a real fucking gun."- Either a) this is an attempt at a joke, or b) you're an idiot ,c) you're on drugs or d) both b and c. Funny just last weekend I shot my .22lr at some pine 2x4's at 25yds. and it blew a hole clear through them. I guess you must be reffering to .22 airsoft. The .22lr I know according to the FBI kills more people each year than any other handgun cartridge.
ericr530 1 year ago
Interesting. It looks as though it's more lethal than a hollow point or a "crossed" bullet.
Nguli34689 1 year ago
I have seen a man walking around after shot himself in his chest 20 years ago when I was in the army, not US army. He was lucky to survive. The bullet went through his body unlike shown in this video. So fragmentation of the bullet may or may not happen. Actually hard to believe fragmentation will happen.
onadesert 1 year ago
I think the problem with 5.56x45 is consistency. Sometimes it fragments, sometimes it dosen't. The 5.56x45 fails to fragment if the range increases,fired out of a short barrel. I even heard that fragmentation was different on each bullet even from the same manufacter.
esh325 2 years ago
So it really boils down to that all important paradigm-shot placement. A .22lr through the heart will kill far faster than a 9mm to each shoulder, both arms, both legs and each kidney.
ericr530 2 years ago
.22s are toys my freinds and i shoot them at each other and what happens nothing.... bounces off skin but leaves a good mark buy a real fucking gun
steamingpoopfart 1 year ago
@steamingpoopfart Yeah stand over there buddy lets see if my 22 bounces off you . . . .
mycaddigo 1 year ago
@steamingpoopfart so then lets see your video of that, fuckin liar
mbenson2790 1 year ago
@steamingpoopfart .22 Longrifle and .223 NATO are two different types of rounds. Can I shoot you with my girlfriends Ruger 10-22? I wanna see if your theory of a .22 bouncing off the skin is true. Please send me your address. Thank you.
Kennyan11b 1 year ago
are u threatening me?
steamingpoopfart 1 year ago
@steamingpoopfart If you actually took my sarcasm as a threat, and that I would actually expect you to send me your adress and me come there to shoot you, then you are mistaken. Much like I could not tell if you were serious or joking about .22 actually bouncing off peoples skin. I think you were serious.
Kennyan11b 1 year ago
Very well, I concur, some ballistic studies were done in the past using cadavers. While it's quite true ballistic gelatin is not a human medium, it is a fairly reasonable approximation . Admittedly, I've never served in combat, but I know plenty of folks who have and very few have complained about the 5.56 round being ineffective. I grow tired of these BS anectdotal stories of my bud blah blah shot an insurgent 6 times in the chest and he kept laughing and charging at him ...blah...blah.
ericr530 2 years ago
My original point was a comment on the statement in the video that, The modern M-16 cartridge.I dont know anybody whos walking around whos been hit by one. Bullets can have a measurable amount of probable lethality..but the human body is not a block of ballistic gelatin. The effects of bullets are often unpredictable and I simply used General Petraeus as a high profile example.
Slickgoodlin 2 years ago
The bullet still, did not hit his heart directly or spinal column, which is normally fatal. Statistically 75% of people who are shot survive. An obese woman where I live took three .45ACP FMJ rounds to the chest and lived, none of them hit a vital area/organ. I'm rather doubtful though, that handgun enthusiasts are ready to denounce .45ACP as a poor manstopper. .22LR kills more people each year than any other caliber. What exactly is your point?
ericr530 2 years ago
Flesh wound?
Petraeus had a laceration to a large pulmonary artery and a lacerated pulmonary vein. A small entrance wound was located in the front, right, middle of his chest with a larger exit wound that shattered his sixth rib in the back of his rib cage. Dr. Frist made a 12-inch incision and put his hand on the lung to stop the bleeding. A small part of the damaged lung was resected and the damaged rib was also resected. The blood vessels were sutured shut and the wound closed.
.
Slickgoodlin 2 years ago
Very lucky for him it was just a flesh wound.
ericr530 2 years ago
General David Patraeus, current Commander, U.S. Central Command. In 1991, as battalion commander of the 187th Infantry, he was accidentally shot in the chest during a live-fire exercise when a soldier tripped and his M-16 rifle discharged. He was taken to Vanderbilt University Medical Center, Nashville, Tennessee, where he was operated on by future U.S. Senator Bill Frist. The hospital released him early after he did fifty push ups without resting, just a few days after the accident.
Slickgoodlin 2 years ago
That's funny of the 20 or so Gulf war vets I've talked to when asked about the 5.56 never really complained about it's stopping power.Even someone shot with a bb gun isn't going to turn around like they were hit by a snowball- not to start a fight but that sounds like BS to me.The US military needs to do two things: 1) Equip all weapons in service with the gas piston system, which several manufacturers now offer,2) Go back to XM193 ammo which tumbles and fragments in the body, instead of m855.
ericr530 2 years ago
The 5.56 is extremely weak in the stopping power department. One of my buds shot an insurgent in the back with his M4 and the guy just turned around to see who shot him. The bullet simply does not have enough mass to cause serious problems, especially when FMJ Ball ammo is used. The problem is made worse when the insurgents load up on drugs and shoot up with adrenaline, they become almost unstoppable. We need to at least switch to the 6.5/6.8, but I'd like to see us back at the 7.62 NATO.
Mr2ndAmendment 2 years ago
In my opinion 6.5mm is optimal caliber for infantry riflemen. The 7,62 NATO has too much recoil, and even it should be scaled down to 7mm. Slightly smaller dia. and longer high BC bullets maintain their velocity better and are more lethal. The 6.5 Creedmoor or the same cartridge necked up to 7mm would be more perfect.
Ploxhoi 2 years ago
I have been looking into the 6.8 and 6.5 and I like the 6.5. I like the 7.62 NATO even better, but the biggest problem is not the recoil but the weight of the ammo. I've carried about 10 M14 mags and the weight is real heavy, for the same weight I could carry about 25 to 30 mags of 5.56 ammo. I'd like to see the 6.5 or something that has more stopping power, the 5.56 is just a .22LR on steroids.
Mr2ndAmendment 2 years ago
m14 doesn't shoot 7.62's....
mstrchief24 2 years ago
Yes it does, my main issued-weapon is an M14 and we shoot 7.62 NATO rounds through it. Unless it has been gunsmithed or modified to shoot something else, the M14 is chambered for the 7.62 NATO round, which is pretty much the same as the .308 Winchester.
I think you're referring to the 7.62 x 39, which is what the AK47 series is chambered in. There are many calibers that are 7.62, such as the 30.06 ("thirty ought six"), 30 Carbine, 7.62 Russian, .308 Win, 30-30, and so on.
Mr2ndAmendment 2 years ago
Actually it does, it shoots the 7.62x51 NATO round. All m14s' and all its' variants shoot that same round.
Foci8 1 year ago
@Foci8 is that the same as .223? or close to it
mbenson2790 1 year ago
@mbenson2790 No, not really. They are two different rounds. The 7.62x51 (the civilian version is .308 Winchester) is much bigger and used for battle rifles and some sniper rifles, while the 5.56x54 (the civilian version is .223) is the standard round of all NATO assault rifles.
Foci8 1 year ago
Regardless. Any bullet is lethal. Any bullet is a threat. No matter where your shot with whatever caliber bullet its gonna hurt. Your going to bleed. You will probably soil your self loose your breath and awareness. And you still havent got the next round coming for you. I would prefer something a little bigger personally but the 5.56 is an ok round.
Also The future weapons guy is just trying to sell the guns he advertises. He is full of shit. Wherever the money is at so is he.
123Ivance123 2 years ago
@andyhuangit
several people i know that are active duty seem to agree that 5.56 takes a few shots to put somebody down, where as larger rounds like 7.62 have much more stopping power.
theslasher99 2 years ago
It might be propaganda. I dont really know and dont really know what to believe anymore. So fuck it i guess. People are half and half with the 5.56 and M4 it seems like. Oh well
SimonLy90 2 years ago
You guy's need to play nice, everyone knows that the .223 isn't the round that the .308 is. Damn the weight, switch back to the 7.62x51!
Chiliconnada 2 years ago
@Chiliconnada
thats what the m60 is for :P
theslasher99 2 years ago
AMEN
Chiliconnada 2 years ago
It's impressive on paper this fragmentaion, but there are quite a few problems with it. If the 5.56x45 is fired from too short a barrel (like the M4) then it will not fragment and have effects similar to a .22 LR. If the 5.56x45 hits minimal tissue, it will also fail to fragment. The 5.56x45 will also not fragment very well at long distance. The consistency of the 5.56x45 is poor at best, larger rounds like the 7.62x51 are much more consistent in regards to lethality regardless of barrel length.
esh325 2 years ago
I prefer my 7.62x51mm rounds. With soft nose bullets, I can create 3-4 inch exit wounds. It can also kill by hydroshock alone.
devel155 2 years ago
I know it tumbles when it hits a target. But why are they having problems with insurgents getting up after theyve been hit?
SimonLy90 2 years ago 4
They aren't. These are rumors that are usually from "a friend" or "someone I knew". A majority of these "hits" are either to the extremities or complete misses.
A bullet is a bullet is a bullet. The 7.62 requires it to yaw (tumble) in order to maximize its wound channel otherwise its hole is smaller than a 9mm. The 5.56 does the same but might fragment. If it only yaw's then it still makes a decent sized wound channel.
brainplay 2 years ago
Alot of insurgents encountered are on drugs, so they can take alot of hits and still keep going with out feeling anything untill they pass out of blood loss.
Airsoftsniping101 2 years ago
@SimonLy90 because, bullets aren't magical things that just cause someone to lay down like in the movies. Yes, even the 308's of today and the 30-06 of ww2 were very unlikely to drop someone permanently unless the spine got hit. Get over it.
EliteAmericans 6 months ago
@SimonLy90 because the range the shot is fired from has a lot to do with the terminal ballistics. Shooting somebody at close range may not result in the greatest damage because the bullet has too much energy&neatly drills a hole thru-n-thru enemy, too far away and the 5.56mm doesn't have enough energy to cause yaw or "tumbling". So at close range it may be a good idea to go to full-auto. Russians don't have that problem because they use fragmentary bullets which is what the USA should do also.
oeyesea 5 months ago
@oeyesea ALL spitzer shaped (ie pointy) bullets will yaw when they hit a medium denser than air. However, specific bullet shape and weight will determine WHEN it will yaw. 5.56mm typically yaws at 10cm of penetration. 7.62x39mm (ie AK rounds) yaw after 30cm. The sooner the yaw the better. Further, velocity is important. Faster impact velocities usually mean bullet fragmentation. 5.56mm will usually not fragment at velocities lower than 2500fps. 7.62x39mm usually doesn't frag at all.
armynurseboy 3 months ago
@SimonLy90 what i heard is that insurgents smoke drugs which im guessing makes them feel no pain? lol
cptromero5595 4 months ago
@cptromero5595 actually its pure adrenalin and fear of being shot for the taliban
xxxpaintbal 1 month ago
That is correct xxxjonnydangerousxxx, 20" A2 or A3 will glean the maximum energy @1300ft./lbs from a current military barrel,i really dislike the M4 barrel profile,heat problems, and am going to opt for a heavy possibly stainless bull for a carbine weapon. The weight of the ammo isn't really a issue with 6.8 spc it's just that the US Army wants to justify a new cartridge which requires a greater expenditure of $, with marginal gains in energy and somewhat higher expenditures in raw materials.
ericr530 2 years ago
"marginal gains in energy"
finally someone who gets it! this round isn't that much more powerful at range. only real advantage is up close out of short barrels
prowler10393 2 years ago
the 5.56x45mm NATO is a great round when fired from an M16A4 full length barrel, but the army is planning on fielding the FN SCAR which has a standard length of 14" and a CQB/C length of 10" so as i stated previously the reflexive firing will become the new doctrine and the 5.56 will stay. ammuniton weight reduction and volume expansion is a viable argument for keeping the 5.56. how many rounds does it take you to kill a man running at 100 meters in a city while shaking from adrenaline and fear?
xxxjonnydangerousxxx 2 years ago
an M855 or SS109 for civilian rounds, passes right through the body of an insurgent. unless you hit a bone or the bullet cuts through the heart or spine your chance of a one shot kill at center mass aiming is low. hence the us army reflexive fire training. Fire quickly, 2-3 rounds centermass of a target. Also the reasoning behind mass issue of the Aimpoint Comp M4 CCO. the full length M16 muzzle velocity is greater then the M4, causing easier fracture of the bullet in a human target.
xxxjonnydangerousxxx 2 years ago 4
the 5.56 in 20 in barral has an effective range of 550m !! now if you looking to Injure the Enemy the 5.56 is good for 800m !!
sargon08 2 years ago
(comment#1)5.56mmx45(.223 caliber)was an already commercial available cartridge.Develope back either in the 1930s or '40s I read in a gun magazine.When the U.S. military was looking for a light weight intermediate assault rifle round in the late '50s.There it was,ready to go(remember,the little round wasn't made up on a drawling board with years of thinking).Compare to the AK-47's 7.62mmx39,that's a true military assault rifle round.
TheXtro101 2 years ago
the AK47's 7.62x39mm is a hunk of shit at range. by that i mean anything past like 150 yards. even chambered in an SKS the accuracy is no match for a 5.56 and at further distances the 5.56 actually hits harder.
anything less than 150 yards the AK has the advantage, however when the M16 was designed, it was designed in mind that the common soldier would be fighting on an open field agaisnt the soviets.
prowler10393 2 years ago
m16 kicks fucken ass
925Nick 2 years ago
Last time I checked,from FBI crime statistics, an icepick delivers lethal,curved, penetrative wounds. Give me some names or instances or some kind of info where an enemy combatant has recieved a straight though the body wound which a steel tipped 5.56/.223 or armor piercing wound would produce in a center mass shot and has fought valiantly afterwards.
ericr530 2 years ago
Just simply find yourself an Iraq or Afghanistan vet and ask. Within a minute you'll have your example. If you want examples from literature, try reading Black Hawk Down. In it there are multiple instances where Somali militiamen shot by US troops simply walked away, or worse just kept fighting. Since they adopted the SS109 penetrator round in the mid-80's the 5.56mm has been junk. Do some actual research on this and you'll see.
PJYost38 2 years ago
i read BHD 3 times.
if you had read it FULLY you'd understand those somalis were drugged up on the weed they called "khat".
they were high as hell and couldn't feel a thing and it doesn't really matter what you get hit with if it didn't hit the vitals.
at 300 meters and a well aimed shot to the lungs or heart, the target will only go as far as the air in it's lungs permit.
prowler10393 2 years ago
Here is what I will say in response to that. If there was nothing to be gained by upgrading the 5.56mm round and the M16/M4 that its used in, why did SOCOM develop the 6.8 SPC round? Our special forces soldiers dont like to waste time or effort, so if this round wasnt needed they wouldnt have developed it. The fact that the did speaks volumes about the quality of the 5.56mm. You are entitled to your opinion, but given the facts I'll side with our SF and not you. Sorry. We need a new round.
PJYost38 2 years ago
And as far as assuming that I didnt comprehend what I read I"ll tell you this. I served in the USMC for 4 years and carried and fired the M16 so I suspect I know it personally better than you do. Men I served with are currently fighting in A-stan and one thing Ive heard from them over and over is that the 5.56mm ISNT CUTTING IT in combat over there. Now how about you FULLY read that.
PJYost38 2 years ago
not to rag on your service but have you actually shot and killed someone with that rifle? there is actual scientific information concerning the lethality of the 5.56.
i will agree in close range combat the 6.8 will outperform the 5.56 with both bullets being FMJ's.
It's an inherent nature of short fat bullets to be inaccurate, especially from a MASS PRODUCED SERVICE RIFLE.
SF usually engage in CQB so i understand their need, for the infantryman no.
prowler10393 2 years ago
Actually the ballistic coefficient of the 6.8 SPC round is better than the 5.56mm. At long range it OUTPERFORMS the 5.56mm in both accuracy and lethality. At ranges over 300m it is TWICE as lethal as the 5.56mm, which is why SF developed it in the first place.Of course if they didnt "shoot and kill" with it they must not know what they are talking about right? I love it when the amateurs in the rear try and show off. You just make yourself look more ignorant with each post. Give it a rest.
PJYost38 2 years ago
so i guess the difference between .283 and .292 is a big difference.
it's already proven that the 5.56 is more accurate by several benchrest shooters. it's also a well known fact the the smaller caliber the more accurate it becomes. that is common knowledge to anyone with an understanding of ballistics
the BULLET ITSELF is ALWAYS the determing factor in stopping power. not the caliber.
prowler10393 2 years ago
personally everytime i hear stories about the 5.56 not cutting i think of the shittiest shots around because i have witnessed killed animals larger than a person with the 223. Hell my grandfather use to shoot deer with his old 222 rem and that's even smaller.
you're only gaining 300 ft lbs of energy around 100 yards and 100 ftlbs at 500 yards. That's not much more when you're already getting plastered by over 1000ft lbs at 100. MORE THAN ENOUGH to shread vitals
prowler10393 2 years ago
frankly i don't care what SF say or any other army junky. it's just another spending project that won't go anywhere like the OICW, XM8, and probably the FN SCAR program.
it's easier to switch to a better bullet that to rebarrel all of those rifles. for special forces use, i say hell yeah. to apply to all infantry no. Downrange the ballistics are nill with a FMJ bullet.
prowler10393 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Oh I see..you dont care what the troops say...YOU KNOW BETTER. Thats about what I thought you'd say. So until you get your little peckerwood ass into uniform and walk the walk..SHUT THE FUCK UP
PJYost38 2 years ago
no i don't care what they say. i'm sorry but everytime i hear that excuse i don't feel bad for someone who volunteered to be there. you knew the goddamn consequences of joining up and if you don't like the rifle you are equipped with don't join. it's not like you weren't given a choice either. i had several uncles in the service across all branches, my grandfather, my father, my cousins....ALL OF THEM TOLD ME TO NOT JOIN. i was a little army kid all my life until i hit 18.
prowler10393 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Maybe they knew you couldnt cut it? Now you want to blab on and on about killing game? Game dont shoot back you pussy. Im tired of you. You bore me. Now go back to your gun magazine and keep dreaming about what it would be like to be a man.
PJYost38 2 years ago
LMAO you're too hilarious.
why don't you keep jacking off to that wannabe navy seal video of mack shooting the M468 cause thats the only evidence you got
you're right game dont shoot back, but neither does a raghead if you shoot the mother fucker where you're suppose to shoot them and not blind fire at something you think is the target.
i looked at all the facts, it took 50k rounds to kill one gook in vietnam with JUST an M16. that's called poor shooting
prowler10393 2 years ago
here's the facts: i never been shot at, you never been shot. you never killed anybody. i never killed anybody.
i have years of actual weapon knowledge. you have 4 years of firing one fuckin rifle.
you gun ho army fucks that never saw combat crack me up because think stopping power will make up for you're lack of marksmanship. i can place 5 shots into a nickel size group with my 223 at 250 yards. that's about the same area as a human eye and you tell me people have problems with the 5.56?
prowler10393 2 years ago
Wow , it sounds like quite a few folks actually need to do a little research on wound ballistics. Just because a bullet doesn't expand or tumble in a human or other animal body does not mean it won't easily kill. The deeper a bullet penetrates the more likely it is going to hit a major organ or artery. The ss109 will penetrate level III armor(steel plate) at over 200yds. Even if it couldn't which it well can, the shock of blunt force trauma produced by the bullet will cause cardiac failure.
ericr530 2 years ago
That last comment assumes a hit to a vital area. In that case with a center mass shot 5.56 will easily penetrate the sternum,lungs ,heart with no vest, and nearly as deep with.7.62X39 will do the same. Most armor only offers full protection from handguns and shrapnel. So millitary steel tiped /or core bullets will penetrate steel plate vests easily at considerable distances, This is what they are designed for.Even if the plate stops the bullet, the blunt force trauma can kill with a rifle round.
ericr530 2 years ago
Too bad the M16 bullet currently in use isnt the one they are talking about in this video. What you say? The old M193 5.56mm ball round was capable of tumbling as described here. Too bad we stopped using it in the mid 80's. Now we use the SS109 round with steel penetrator core that goes through the human body like an ice pick. No tumbling, no hydostatic shock and usually NO KILL. Since it is a bullet it will kill and do damage, yet if its so good why have our own spec ops developed the 6.8 SPC??
PJYost38 2 years ago
yere they had to make the 5.56 stronger because the m193 would shatter if it hit body armor like really thin body armor
SkullKing11841 2 years ago
Hence SS109 which will penetrate armor vests with ease.
ericr530 2 years ago
Yes, and it goes through the human body like an icepick, doing nearly no damage unless it hits bone or an organ. Thats why now the M16/M4 isnt effective at killing beyond 300 meters. Yes its accurate as hell and you'll HIT your target, the bad part is that he'll just walk away, or keep shooting back at you. This is why we need the 6.8 SPC round in the M16 yesterday.
PJYost38 2 years ago
Dude, you can hit an enemy in the stomach with a 7.62mm NATO round, and he'd still be alive enough to bleed out for a few hours. In the meantime, he could still get his bearings straight and fire back at you.
YOU NEED TO HIT A VITAL ORGAN REGARDLESS OF WHAT CALIBER YOU USE, DUMBASS. Otherwise, that "one-shot-one-kill" notion falls apart with most rounds.
Hell, even with a 50 cal, if you barely nick the side of your enemy, he'll just have a graze wound that he probably won't instantly feel.
grgspunk 2 years ago
An enemy hit by a 7.62 x 51 NATO isnt getting back up and fighting with a "stomach wound". He may live, but he is done for that day and may after. However, a 5.56 x 45 round would leave him capable of fighting, that was the whole point. Aiming and hitting center mass with a rifle in .223 is easy because its an accurate round but it just isnt powerful enough. As far as your "dumbass" comment, I'll just say that when YOU can hit ANYTHING with a rifle at long range like I used to I'll listen to you
PJYost38 2 years ago
Dude, from a tactically conservative standpoint, as long as the enemy is alive and breathing, you have to assume that he's capable of still firing back at you. It'd be stupid to take any chances and assume that he's "done for the day" and turn your back on him if you don't hit him where it really hurts.
grgspunk 2 years ago
And let me guess: The soldiers mentioning the lack of stopping power used semi-auto and never aimed at the vital parts, right? Well guess what? They aren't even using it as it's inteded to be used.
The 5.56mm is designed to make up for its lack of weight/size by its accuracy in RAPID fire, not just semi-auto. If you can't aim for vitals, then the need to use the selector switch is obvious: They have to stop spoiling themselves with semi auto and actually learn when/how to use burst/full-auto.
grgspunk 2 years ago
The ss109 was adopted to penetrate Level 3 armor vests,steel trauma plate. This is what it does well at relatively long distances. I don't see where this would matter against a Taliban fighter or an Iraqi insurgent which it would be highly unlikely that they would wear one. That book was written by a journalist based on anectdotal accounts. While I''m not saying the soldiers were lying the stories could be embellished given the status of the author. The argument then is the ss109 will kill.
ericr530 2 years ago
One does not have to consult with the cheif of cardiolgy at Walter Reed to determine that a hole shot straight through a human heart,even from a small caliber projectile will kill within seconds, leaving someone to fight about 10-15 sec. before the adreneline is used up. a upper spinal cord hit is instantly fatal. If your lungs collapse from being shot through an enemy combatant isn't going to fight very long either.The XM193 does a better job than ss109 because of the terrible wound it causes.
ericr530 2 years ago
Even given that the SS109 WILL quickly kill IF IN A VITAL AREA. According to the FBI more civilians are killed with .22 rimfire than any other caliber. The 5.56 has 10x the energy of .22 rimfire so your, nothing under .30 caliber projectile has enough power to quickly subdue an attacker assumption doesn't really hold up well. The US military doesn't exclusively use ss109 only anyway. Enemy combatants with holes shot through their hearts or lungs or spines don't walk away to fight another day.
ericr530 2 years ago
And at ranges longer than 300m if you use burst or full auto (M4) you dont get more than one hit anyway. Point is that this is and always has been a very limited round. Our guys arent being issued M14's in Iraq and A-stan for no reason. The 5.56mm was meant to kill VARMINTS not people. This is why Im still writing letters to congress to get our troops an M16/M4 chambered in 6.8 SPC. Maybe instead of writing here you will join me and write to your congressperson asking them to address this issue.
PJYost38 2 years ago
"The 5.56 was meant to kill VARMITS not people"- Tell that to upward of millions of Iraqis and many,manyTaliban and insurgents and NVA who are dead.
ericr530 2 years ago
We havent killed millions of anything with the 5.56mm. Most of the NVA, Taliban and Iraqis that were killed were the victims of US airpower. And nobody said the 5.56mm wouldnt kill. Just that it doesnt inflict enough damage to be immediately fatal or debilitating in many cases. And finally, the .223 is a VARMINT cartridge. Thats actually a classification used to describe ammo INCLUDING the .223. Look it up, do some research.
PJYost38 2 years ago
Oh and the US is the only military that uses the M16?! Many calibers,save .50 don't cause instant death even if it is a shot in the vital areas . The concept of instant stopping power is a myth anyway. .223 IS NOW classified as a varmit cartridge, It was orginally developed from the .222 Rem. varmit round for the military. I don't need to look it up, I shoot it every weekend through my AR. With FMJ bullets that don't expand, not enough energy is deposited,whether 5.56 or 6.8,or .30
ericr530 2 years ago
Dude, have you ever been shot with a 5.56 before? Unless you have and could perfectly function normally yourself, you're crock full of shit calling it a "varmint" cartridge.
We're comparing bullets that have only 1~2mm of difference in diameter and cartriges that have less than 0.02 oz of difference in powder. Most rounds don't have a one-shot kill effect unless you aim at the right places. Not to mention other factors will come into play in choosing ammo (weapon weight, mag capacity, recoil).
grgspunk 2 years ago
I think he is one of those guys who feels the need to have the power of .300 Win. mag in a 8 pound military rifle. Yes, perhaps I overstated it a bit, how about this. The 5.56 has succesfully caused countless thousands of deaths worldwide. the .223 is in fact today classifed as a varmit cartridge but it works very well on humans also. It however, sucks for hunting deer. Unless you decapitiate someone, they will usually have at least a few seconds of fight left in them no matter what caliber.
ericr530 2 years ago
I carried one of these pieces of junk for years. I dont need it chambered in a magnum cartridge, just one thats light in weight and more lethal like the the 6.8 SPC. The main reason the 5.56mm was chosen was weight. Its not as heavy to carry 300 rounds of 5.56 as it is to carry 7.62. But when the round isnt powerful enough for combat an upgrade is called for. Our own Special Forces saw this and created a new round (6.8 SPC) that overcame the problem. Maybe argue with some members of SF about it.
PJYost38 2 years ago
The bullets themselves arent relevant, its the effect they have. The M16 used to be more lethal when we used the M193 ball round (which tended to fragment). We now have the SS109 and while its great for penetrating helmets or body armor, on the human body its effects are limited. And actually I was hit with a bullet frag from an M16 in the thumb at the range at Camp Lejeune, which is probably closer than you've come to being shot with one. The round is junk. Argue all you want, it wont change.
PJYost38 2 years ago
Actually it may be good for us civilian AR shooters if the military upgrades to 6.8 Rem. SPC. There will be so much surplus 5.56 laying around that it will be practically given away. That would be great, as I'm tired of paying 40 cents a round.
ericr530 2 years ago
It would be nice, but it will never happen. Those assholes in Congress dont care about how good or bad our weapons are, just so long as they are expensive.
PJYost38 2 years ago
Very true indeed.
phillipmannrx7 2 years ago
Are you ok a bullet frag to the thumb is exactly the same as getting hit in the chest with the whole bullet ,doesn't hurt at all.
black413085 2 years ago
No its not the same thing, never said that. However being hit with one in the chest doesnt do much to stop a man either. Thats why the enemy that we shoot with this round tend to keep on running, shooting and fighting for awhile. Thats why we need a more powerful round.
PJYost38 2 years ago
Why don't they just move up to a 77gr it has close to the same stopping power as a 30 caliber. The military could save money and have more stopping power.
black413085 2 years ago
If they were going to play around with the ballistics the why not just use the 6.8 SPC? Its already been developed and tested, has a much better ballistic coefficent than the 5.56 and is therefore more lethal and more accurate. Especially at ranges above 300m, where much of the combat in Afghanistan takes place. After all those factors consider that all that needs replacing in the current M16/M4 is the barrel, bolt and extractor. Seems like a no-brainer. Change to the 6.8 SPC.
PJYost38 2 years ago
or they could just use ballistic tip ammunition and save money on replacement barrels. this bullshit that the military isn't allowed to use anything but FMJ's is complete bullshit. ballistic tips kill faster, plain and simple.
Everything the 6.8 does, the 308 does better and it's already standardized. this push the 6.8 conversion is a joke. you cannont beat the accuracy of the 5.56 or the 308.
prowler10393 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Really? So its your informed opinion that now the 7.62 round is lighter in weight than the 6.8? Because thats the primary factor..WEIGHT. If you'd ever put on 80 pounds of gear, a 9 lb rifle and then had to carry all that shit 25 miles and then FIGHT you might realize that a lighter weight round can save the grunt about 10 pounds of weight. When you have to lug 330 rounds or more everyplace you go any weight you can save is a godsend.
PJYost38 2 years ago