@OBAMAisHalfCaste who cares, all of latin america which is almost two continents are a new race. mexicans are of two races so is central america and so on.
@nando90210 We the true black/brown people of africa care because we dont our race to be diluted out and have white-peoples biracial children representing us.
@OBAMAisHalfCaste who cares, all of latin america which is almost two continents are a new race. mexicans are of two races so is central america and so on. do your researh buddy.
Thanks for visiting my site and taking the time to respond - whether it is in anger or frustration. Don't you see that having rejected the Bible Westerners like you are losing civility, rationality and the grace to give to people like me the right to present my views.
Your crude comment proves the Bible right that without the Savior we are dead in our sins. As you suppress the Truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) God will give you up to live by your degenrate heart. Repentance will begin the regenration of your soul.
You are right in calling yourself "midnightassasin". The Light of the World came to rescue us from the power of darkness. May His love and light penetrate your heart.
Yes, institutionalisation can and does create default moral protocols. This, however is not a true indication of innate human goodness.The individual, to a large degree, must follow these standardised "Laws" An example would be a perceived Christian nation allowing abortion. This goes against the standard Christian morals.The same way that the Hindu institution allows for the age old Caste-system, when many Hindus are against this form of social order. .
2} continued...The human being, regardless of religious orientation {including the Atheist or Agnostic} is wired for innate goodness because we have "Empathy" One can follow the social evolution of early man, up until today and recognise that innate goodness is a by product of empathy.I am not about to begin a lecture on the fundamentals of evolution, nor should I need to. But i will say that a morale code does not require the fear of a monotheistic God or Polytheistic Gods.
Some previous Presidents did not swear for that very reason. Nevertheless entering into covenants and commitments - like marriage vows - is a biblical idea.
Oh and the African tribes and cavemen that were all ancestors of ours much before the invention of god and the printing of the bible, they got married and vowed commitments to each other in anticipation that one day their unexplainable behavior would be endorsed and clarified by the bible? Come on their was life and morality and good people on earth before somebody decided to write this best selling book.
American politics have been reduced to Biblical allegories.Biblical rhetoric, {in White House} is the perceived morale foundation of the West.
America's fore fathers had a vision of social equality and secularism, as written in constitution.Basically,you assert that Christian, biblical morality alone, motivates western humanities quest for peace and freedom of "evil" This is an unfounded theory considering that Biblical scholars, let alone denominations, can't agree ..Continued.....
CONTINUED...can't agree on what parts of the Bible to translate literally or visionary.I believe the analogy is "cherry picking" The American politician will publicly celebrate Biblical,American vernacular as a means to placate the far right fundamentalists who will dictate to their congregations who to vote for..So basically, Christianity in America is a powerful political means to a successful campaign and to suggest that the morale majority are Christians is naive. Continued..
3}The argument that humanity has no clear morality without the Christian "faith" controlling or guiding the proverbial "strings" is absurd. Morality or a desire to be fundamentally good to all living things is as much a part of our basic survival skills as the air we breath. Altruism, unfortunately can be culturally corrupted, religion being the biggest corrupter throughout history.I am so bored hearing non evidential theories that biblical morality or what ever brand of religious .continued
4} continued..or what ever brand of religion claiming to have the final word "from God" concerning morale protocols..That America is Gods own country..I guess God has a direct phone line to the White House....Atheism and Agnosticism is growing faster than religion in some parts of the world...Personally, the God in the Bible is a Jealous,violent,unforgiving, murderous megalomaniacal,vindictive God. Certainly no morale role model.
god (written with a small g as a way to rebel against the christian, muslim and other religions saying the all mighty one needs to be addressed with a big G)cannot be described otherwise then with the words you chose as he is an invention of man and can only be a reflection of himself with all the violence and fear that man has attributed him in order to use this fear to control others. That is the sole purpose of religion...control, control and control. I agree with your comments.
Can you describe anything without using words? Can you use words to describe truth about yourself - e.g. your favorite book? Why is it that the Creator cannot speak truth about Himself?
Yes I can describe anything without using words...I can also use words to describe truth about myself, and I will become an instant believer as soon as I can read or hear words or see signs or feel emotions from that invention of yours....until then you can call him your creator because it probably serve your purpose. I will stick to my beliefs which in a nut shell I don't think very highly of humans that live in constant lies.
A different approach to your questions: Yes I can therefore I exist. No he can't speak the truth about himself therefore he does not exist. My previous reply was way to complicated for such simple questions......:-)
1} In Answer..how can the creator "speak" or project "truth" When, in reality it is us, the mere mortal who claims an inspired encounter of the omnipresence variety. The brain is a remarkable organ. It is more than capable of "faith" inspired euphoria. Man, in his sincere belief that he is the recipient of divine intervention. A celestial message from God.This was Old Testament practice.Not to mention the socio-political influence. Mythological analogies with emphasis on divinity...continued
If morality is as common as the air we breath, why is it that most nations cannot fight corruption? Yesterday a new and very dear friend of mine went to jail. He grew up without a father. People that do not have inner moral restrains have to be restrained by force. That is why ALL atheist societies have always been dictatorships.
I take umbrage to that dear sir because I consider moral and intellectual capabilities to not be exclusive to religious groups or people. I read the bible, and I see every day christians pissing on every commandment they were brought up to respect. Love thy brother, respect your fathers and do on to others bla bla bla, but on the porch of their sunday mass they blasphemy their god by cheating and lying and planning other mortal sins. I practice respect and care towards others as an atheist.
Thank you for responding to my comments in a friendly fashion.
How can one as educated as you, make such an irrational statement.{Atheists societies are dictatorships}I hope yr not going to cite the Hitler dictatorship as example.Hitler was not Atheist and in fact spent considerable effort in obtaining "The Spear of Destiny" {the supposed spear that was used by the solider Longinus to pierce the side of Jesus during crucifixion}Hitler hated communism and Judaism, however he was not an Atheist
2} cont..Hitler believed in the supernatural powers of this spear.His motives were certainly not pure and ironically, he was very fearful of evil but chose to study the Dark Arts. So, what ever Hitler may have been, he certainly was not an Atheist.. I live in Australia a very secular, multi cultural society, yet Atheism or Agnosticism is fast becoming the majority stance.Religion is kept out of our constitution.We have lower crime rates per capita than USA..Morality is not exclusive. Its innate.
3}.I find the notion of morality born of fear most disturbing.That is, the Christian belief in external punishment.{Heaven Hell}One behaves because one wasn't a ticket into heaven. Where I choose to be a good, morally humanistic being because it feels right.Because fairness and love make our brief existence on earth workable and cooperative. I don't need the reward of ever lasting life in Heaven to motivate me.I choose to be a compassionate because the system of mutual respect works.
5} The old Testament is a human construct. It is a product of the time and reflects the cultural and religious differences of a morally developing country. Look at Leviticus and show me a compassionate, loving, forgiving God.The Old Testament mirrors a dysfunctional, warring,vengeful God where its ok to stone a child or a woman to death for the most trivial of acts. Slavery is just according to the God of the Old Testament.I spent the first 15 yrs of my life indoctrinated by the Church.
6} Finally {as I don't wish to take up too much of yr time} God is a manifestation of a fear the unknown, the unexplainable. 2000 yrs on and we can answer many of lifes mysteries.We don't need an omnipotent being to provide us with the story of Genesis. Evidentially,God does not exist. Historically,one can actually follow the social evolution of religion. In laboratories the religious experience can be simulated using electrical pulses on brain.Religion is a by-product of early mans angst.
Thank YOU for taking the time to post such clear and concise thoughts in such an eloquent manner. May they help others to let the light shine threw the darkness created by so much fear poured into their vulnerable brains. I think I want to move to Australia.....:-)
I cannot improve the reply 777ren gave you about Atheist societies and dictatorship, but I do wish to add a few more words. It was three in the morning yesterday when I wrote my comment from France were I live. Modern dictatorships were preceded by Monarchies, and to the best of my knowledge, all Kings whether they were christian or muslim were religion driven humans or at least they used it to control their people. How many were tortured, abused and killed in the name of their god?
Are you suggesting that President Obama is a hypocrite or a moral coward, who put his hand on Lincoln's Bible to placate the "Fundamentalists?" Could it be that he sincerely thinks that Lincoln and Martin Luther King really did draw their moral convictions and strength from the Bible that made it possible for a black man to become America's President?
This generation has seen the rise of a black president, and I am very proud of having witnessed this for all the pain blacks have endured. As I was watching the inauguration speech I was asking myself, will I ever see a non religious president during my lifetime. Probably not, but Obama did speak on behalf of Christians, Muslims, and as incredible as it sounded to my ears, non believers of which I am proud to be one of them. He truly brings HOPE. Humanity's cancer, religion.
Darn it there you go again....what does god have to do with Obama and his presidency? Oh and how compassionate is a deity that will let you rot in hell and will ask you to kill and torture in his name? Come on man wake up and smell the coffee, there has been more crimes against humanity and genocides and brothers killing their own brothers in his name then you can imagine. Or maybe you can and just have a short memory. check out this web site that's all it talks about massviolence dot o rg
See that's exactly my point, religions were invented by strong intelligent people to take control of the minds and subsequently the bodies and purses of simple minded people by using tactics such as these to scare the daylights from them so that they could have control over them. Ain't nothing more terrifying and enslaving for a human being then FEAR. It is stronger then firearms and keeps working for ever in the poor minds of the people that allow it to take control of their thoughts.
So then you believe that it is ok to stone a child or a woman to death for having done something however mundane but that broke a sacred rule? Pleaaaaaaase get a life. And if you read all of the Bible you would not say things like "I sincerely believe EVERYTHING the Bible says", oh and yes the best part, in the beginning the main protagonists lived to be 800 to 900 years....hahahahaha You gotta be kidding!
If that is the law of the land that that woman lives in, and she breaks the law.. knowing the consequences, then yes. The Bible teaches us to obey the laws of the land. She knew what would happen but she did it anyways, therefore condemning herself to whatever the punishment may be.
And, actually, i have read the entire Bible. Three times. And i still believe everything it says.
You can believe what you want, but i know what i believe, and when i die, i know where i'm going.
Well I''m sorry to read that there are still people like you in this day and age. So if you are a person that would stone a child or a women or any human being for that matter for having transgressed a religious law then I have to end this conversation by something you people know well....go to hell and burn eternally.
2.) I never said anything about transgressing a religious law, i was talking about secular, national laws.
3.) Don't twist my words to make yourself feel better.
And yes, there are still "people like me" around. Just as there have been for thousands of years, and will always be until Jesus comes back. And when he does, I won't be burning in hell.
See that's exactly my point, religions were invented by strong intelligent people to take control of the minds and subsequently the bodies and purses of simple minded people by using tactics such as these to sacre the daylights from them so that they could take control over them. Ain't nothing more terrifying and enslaving for a human beig then FEAR. It is stronger then firearms and keeps working forever in the minds of the poor people that allow it to take control of their thoughts.
I really like how you associate non believers and criminals by putting us side by side, but wasn't it Jesus who on the cross said to the poor bastard criminal who was dying beside him on the other cross that he would reach heaven before all the others? hahahahaha hallelujah I am going to heaven, praise the lord......hahahahahaha
Oh yes there is, nobody pays him royalties for the worlds best selling boo, and if he was so powerful he'd be pissed and would be protecting his copyrights.
Read your history books Shernga, learn about humanity and find your real YOU not what others want you to be threw their religious indoctrination.
That is one of the most ridiculous things i've heard in a while. I'm positive that God has no concerns about copyright infringements.I've read history books, and i'm a fairly intelligent person. Everything that the Bible predicted has happened or is happening, and there's no reason to believe it will not continue.
p.s. I've read history books, but maybe you should read some English books and learn that in the case of your previous comment, the correct word would be "through". Not "threw".
Is it possible for a prodigal son to take some steps towards his father even if he does not know the Father's heart and mind in its totality? Should we follow the elder brother or the Father in embracing him with the love of the Father - so that he may see more of what the Father is like?
I think he does not know Jesus or the Bible at all.
When you are born again in Yahwehs spirit, his law of love is written in your heart, you know the truth, and you hate the sin as god hates.
Someone who wants to make it easier to kill babys is obviously not born again.
(Further i think, that Obama clearly knows what he is doing, and that he is a puppet of the Elite (Rockefeller, Rothschild etc./Bilderberg, CFR, TLC) and fulfilling their evil plans for a fascistic severe New World Order!
Openly supporting things that are obviously and strictly against God's word and then swearing on that same word and saying things like, "God bless America", is horrible hypocrisy in my book.
We do have to be vigilant about Machiavellian abuse of the Scriptures by priests, prophets and politicians. But would it be wrong for an alcoholic to ask his children to refrain from drinking and to wish God's blessing upon them
America's Moral Majority has reduced itself to Moral Minority because many of its spokesmen were driven not by the compassionate spirit of the Father but by the judgmental spirit of the Prodigal's elder brother. The younger brother knows that he is ruining America's socio-economic capital but since he is not with the pigs yet, he prefers the company of his terrible friends than to have to live with his older brother - who needs to become like his Father as much as the Prodigal does.
While the younger brother is away from his Father, is he allowed to say that "He is my Father;" or,"That is my Father's home;" or, "This is my Father's Word?" Is President-elect Obama allowed to say to the world that the Bible is the reason why I have become America's President?" Or, would older brothers object to that?
The younger brothers in America defy God's authority openly. The older brothers lack Father's compassion for the rebels. They refuse to rejoice with those who rejoice in America's magnificent triumph over sin of racism.
shernga....Please forgive my contradiction, America is far from triumphing over racism.There may exist anti vilification laws etc. yet fundamentally, racism has its retched grip on many Christian lobby groups.For example "The American rifle association" ironically this powerful political lobby group supports death penalty and a right to bear arms, when the majority of men on death row are young black men and it is estimated that worrying percentage of these are possibly innocent.
2} continued..There exists a worrying trend within some of the so called "Christian, political lobbyists"
Extreme Christian fundamentalism carries many smaller, though no less significant, umbrella organisations. For example The Ku Klux Klan,and The right to bare arms..Racism also thrives within middle American society and takes a more subtle, insipid manifestation. Non Anglo's are over represented in prison, addiction and many of the more marginalised socio economical categories.
Yes, i agree that racism still exists in groups around America, but that is an individual thing. The government can't control beliefs and morals of its people.
However, America as a nation has overcome racism. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 outlawed racial segregation in schools, public places, employments, etc.
Bias based on race is now illegal in the US. Every legislation needed to stop racism has been passed, racism itself exists in the individual, and no kind of law will ever stop that.
You are right. There is a difference between institutionalized racism and person sin. Apostle Paul and Barnabas fought against Christians who wanted to institutionalize segregation between Jewish and non-Jewish believers. Paul argued that all are one in Christ. Institutionalization of racism can be political (e.g. apartheid) or religious (e.g. caste-system in India). The first gets legal sanction the second religious. Law cannot eradicate private sin, but it does define evil.
It is not natural for human beings to love our neighbors as ourselves. Upper caste Hindus treat lower caste Hindus as "untouchables", "polluting". Shias and Sunnis fight each other. Xenophobia is a huge issue in countries such as Russia or Ukraine. That is why the command "love your neighbor as yourself" is needed. But command is not enough: loving our personal, class or race "enemies" is a fruit of the Spirit. If love was only chemistry we could not serve our enemies.
As 777ren so well put it America and the world for that matter has not triumphed over racism. My parents left Spain 50 years ago and went back to their village when they retired. I visit them often and I have witnessed to my shameful amazement bar tenders refusing to serve Arabs in their bar. Racism will have disappeared in America and the world when we no longer speak of a black a president. You are a good or bad president, black has no place in the discussion.
Thank you dear participants for your animated discussion. I was moving my home and office this week and so could not participate. I am on my belated Christmas vacation this weekend and start teaching on monday in Kona, HI - and hope to participate in the conversation. Meanwhile - don't you think we will all benefit if we focussed our comments on the topic of each video? I hope to make videos on other important issues that you have raised -e.g. existence of God, atheism etc.
Great work Mr. Mangalwadi. But will the snobbish and condescending attitude of the American scholars be willing and open to listen to what an Indian Scholar have to say? I have heard condescending comments about Indian/Asian theology.
Thank you for your compliments. Generally, I find Americans are both fair and generous. Scholars have a right to disagree with me and I hope that they will interact with my arguments - especially as we hope to have several more videos up in the next few days.
Many Church leaders have abused the Bible, therefore it would not be surprising if politicians also use religion as a useful tool for manipulating the masses. My short film series is meant to teach the Biblical worldview and values, so that the ritual transforms reality.
While I find the premise of this video intriguing, why would we expect a man of Obama's religious beliefs to uphold or promote values that the Christian faith community doesn't even promote in the public arena? The pastors and priests of America had better deal with the larger problem of teaching their flocks to walk out the principles of the Kingdom in society at large before we expect a neophyte government servant to lead the country in such a manner . . .
The comments of mspengler7, bryanjjones and others show that, to many people, the symbolic gesture of putting a hand on the Bible means more than merely "honoring" the Bible for its positive influence on society. It means something like (a) submitting oneself to the authority of the Bible, conversely,(b) invoking the Bible as legitimation for one's own authority. None of us believes President Obama will really do (a), and surely none of us wants him to do (b).
I have continously engaged in the political arena for over 25 years at every level in our state. The engagement of most members of the faith community in public policy begins and ends with voting - if at all. The worldview that drives that mentality is where the real challenge is, not in discussions of whether a Bible is present at a swearing in ceremony. Every politician will take advantage of the trappings/symbols which best suit his public perception whether believed or not.
You make a good point: the most important thing is not whether the symbol (the hand on the Bible) is used, but whether what it symbolizes (the Bible's authority and values) still have any effect. Could it be, though, that calling attention to the rich--but largely forgotten--content and history of this ritual will cause us to take the Bible itself more seriously?
I desperately hope so, but I honestly doubt it. The problem goes much deeper. In my opinion it will take a transformation of the mind in understanding the nature of the Kingdom as espoused in Holy Writ. The challenge is to the churched not the unchurched . . . The Bible's authority and values will ALWAYS have a positive effect when coupled with faith and action.
You are making an important point. Let us explore the original and the changing worldview of America to see if the changes taking place are for the better.
King Josiah finds a dusty, forgotten copy of the Book of the Law in the temple, and it inspires him to make major government reforms. Let's hope that Obama will actually open, and actually read, the Bible, not just put his hand on it.
You are right. Resources permitting I want to use this series of videos to explore the depths of the symbols and rituals involved in the Inauguration.
I wholly agree that the Bible is what gave our culture the virtues that allowed us to elect a minority, and have a peaceful transition of power. However, to me it sends the wrong message, and is an insult to the Bible for Obama to take an oath on the Bible that I believe he has no intention of upholding. The oath to uphold the constitution has been a blatant lie by all of the presidents in recent history, and I have no reason to think that Obama will have any more sincerity.
The fact that you "believe" that Obama has "no intention of upholding" his oath shows that America is becoming a culture of promise breakers. Trust is disappearing. That is a sign that the sun may be setting on the West. But it need not. Do please listen to my lectures "Must the Sun Set on the Wes?" and join my blog to be launched after Christmas - Vishal
I actually attended your lecture series, and highly recommend it as a wonderful description of the extent to which the Bible has shaped the West.
The Bible needs to return to the center of western thought. However, using it as a meaningless symbol in a ceremony, that I see standing in opposition to the Bibles actual teaching, does not do this. It frustrates me to see our leaders destroying the rule of law while giving lip service to the book that gave rise to the rule of law.
All rituals, religious or not, can become empty or even manipulative. They will become empty if no one even teaches what they mean. Swearing on the Bible is a ritual and our series is meant to explore the meaning of the ritual as well as the place of the Bible in America's past as well ad future. Please pray that we may have the resources to make 52 videos in 2009.
Obama the first half-caste biracial mixed-race president not black
OBAMAisHalfCaste 1 year ago
@OBAMAisHalfCaste who cares, all of latin america which is almost two continents are a new race. mexicans are of two races so is central america and so on.
nando90210 1 year ago
@nando90210 We the true black/brown people of africa care because we dont our race to be diluted out and have white-peoples biracial children representing us.
OBAMAisHalfCaste 1 year ago
Comment removed
nando90210 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@OBAMAisHalfCaste who cares, all of latin america which is almost two continents are a new race. mexicans are of two races so is central america and so on. do your researh buddy.
nando90210 1 year ago
Good job brother Vishal. I like your posts here. Please keep it up. --Dean
DeanCo7777 2 years ago
My pet goat is a better philosopher than you!!
gabriel1118x 2 years ago
I can see who your teacher is
ruthmangalwadi 2 years ago
Keep your backward opinion to yourself, Indian idiot!
gabriel1118x 2 years ago
Thanks for visiting my site and taking the time to respond - whether it is in anger or frustration. Don't you see that having rejected the Bible Westerners like you are losing civility, rationality and the grace to give to people like me the right to present my views.
ruthmangalwadi 2 years ago
The bible doesnt prove a fucking thing. It proves about as much Dr. Suess
midnightassassin13 2 years ago
Your crude comment proves the Bible right that without the Savior we are dead in our sins. As you suppress the Truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) God will give you up to live by your degenrate heart. Repentance will begin the regenration of your soul.
ruthmangalwadi 2 years ago
You are right in calling yourself "midnightassasin". The Light of the World came to rescue us from the power of darkness. May His love and light penetrate your heart.
ruthmangalwadi 2 years ago
At this point I would like to thank you for providing this intelligent and challenging forum..I do enjoy the diversity of opinions....Thank you..
777ren 3 years ago
Yes, institutionalisation can and does create default moral protocols. This, however is not a true indication of innate human goodness.The individual, to a large degree, must follow these standardised "Laws" An example would be a perceived Christian nation allowing abortion. This goes against the standard Christian morals.The same way that the Hindu institution allows for the age old Caste-system, when many Hindus are against this form of social order. .
777ren 3 years ago
2} continued...The human being, regardless of religious orientation {including the Atheist or Agnostic} is wired for innate goodness because we have "Empathy" One can follow the social evolution of early man, up until today and recognise that innate goodness is a by product of empathy.I am not about to begin a lecture on the fundamentals of evolution, nor should I need to. But i will say that a morale code does not require the fear of a monotheistic God or Polytheistic Gods.
777ren 3 years ago
I'm having trouble posting my continued comment..I will endeavour to re post in a few hours..
777ren 3 years ago
The strange thing is, the Bible itself forbids swearing upon the Bible, and so to do so, is like some kind of sarcastic joke.
Swearing upon anything, is condemned in Matthew-5:33-37.
AquarianAscent 3 years ago
Some previous Presidents did not swear for that very reason. Nevertheless entering into covenants and commitments - like marriage vows - is a biblical idea.
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
Oh and the African tribes and cavemen that were all ancestors of ours much before the invention of god and the printing of the bible, they got married and vowed commitments to each other in anticipation that one day their unexplainable behavior would be endorsed and clarified by the bible? Come on their was life and morality and good people on earth before somebody decided to write this best selling book.
josealonsoleon 3 years ago
American politics have been reduced to Biblical allegories.Biblical rhetoric, {in White House} is the perceived morale foundation of the West.
America's fore fathers had a vision of social equality and secularism, as written in constitution.Basically,you assert that Christian, biblical morality alone, motivates western humanities quest for peace and freedom of "evil" This is an unfounded theory considering that Biblical scholars, let alone denominations, can't agree ..Continued.....
777ren 3 years ago
CONTINUED...can't agree on what parts of the Bible to translate literally or visionary.I believe the analogy is "cherry picking" The American politician will publicly celebrate Biblical,American vernacular as a means to placate the far right fundamentalists who will dictate to their congregations who to vote for..So basically, Christianity in America is a powerful political means to a successful campaign and to suggest that the morale majority are Christians is naive. Continued..
777ren 3 years ago
3}The argument that humanity has no clear morality without the Christian "faith" controlling or guiding the proverbial "strings" is absurd. Morality or a desire to be fundamentally good to all living things is as much a part of our basic survival skills as the air we breath. Altruism, unfortunately can be culturally corrupted, religion being the biggest corrupter throughout history.I am so bored hearing non evidential theories that biblical morality or what ever brand of religious .continued
777ren 3 years ago
4} continued..or what ever brand of religion claiming to have the final word "from God" concerning morale protocols..That America is Gods own country..I guess God has a direct phone line to the White House....Atheism and Agnosticism is growing faster than religion in some parts of the world...Personally, the God in the Bible is a Jealous,violent,unforgiving, murderous megalomaniacal,vindictive God. Certainly no morale role model.
777ren 3 years ago
god (written with a small g as a way to rebel against the christian, muslim and other religions saying the all mighty one needs to be addressed with a big G)cannot be described otherwise then with the words you chose as he is an invention of man and can only be a reflection of himself with all the violence and fear that man has attributed him in order to use this fear to control others. That is the sole purpose of religion...control, control and control. I agree with your comments.
josealonsoleon 3 years ago
Can you describe anything without using words? Can you use words to describe truth about yourself - e.g. your favorite book? Why is it that the Creator cannot speak truth about Himself?
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
Yes I can describe anything without using words...I can also use words to describe truth about myself, and I will become an instant believer as soon as I can read or hear words or see signs or feel emotions from that invention of yours....until then you can call him your creator because it probably serve your purpose. I will stick to my beliefs which in a nut shell I don't think very highly of humans that live in constant lies.
josealonsoleon 3 years ago
A different approach to your questions: Yes I can therefore I exist. No he can't speak the truth about himself therefore he does not exist. My previous reply was way to complicated for such simple questions......:-)
josealonsoleon 3 years ago
1} In Answer..how can the creator "speak" or project "truth" When, in reality it is us, the mere mortal who claims an inspired encounter of the omnipresence variety. The brain is a remarkable organ. It is more than capable of "faith" inspired euphoria. Man, in his sincere belief that he is the recipient of divine intervention. A celestial message from God.This was Old Testament practice.Not to mention the socio-political influence. Mythological analogies with emphasis on divinity...continued
777ren 3 years ago
what's your theory on how the universe was created; on how it started?
shernga 3 years ago
you apparently dont know this God very well
shernga 3 years ago
If morality is as common as the air we breath, why is it that most nations cannot fight corruption? Yesterday a new and very dear friend of mine went to jail. He grew up without a father. People that do not have inner moral restrains have to be restrained by force. That is why ALL atheist societies have always been dictatorships.
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
I take umbrage to that dear sir because I consider moral and intellectual capabilities to not be exclusive to religious groups or people. I read the bible, and I see every day christians pissing on every commandment they were brought up to respect. Love thy brother, respect your fathers and do on to others bla bla bla, but on the porch of their sunday mass they blasphemy their god by cheating and lying and planning other mortal sins. I practice respect and care towards others as an atheist.
josealonsoleon 3 years ago
Thank you for responding to my comments in a friendly fashion.
How can one as educated as you, make such an irrational statement.{Atheists societies are dictatorships}I hope yr not going to cite the Hitler dictatorship as example.Hitler was not Atheist and in fact spent considerable effort in obtaining "The Spear of Destiny" {the supposed spear that was used by the solider Longinus to pierce the side of Jesus during crucifixion}Hitler hated communism and Judaism, however he was not an Atheist
777ren 3 years ago
2} cont..Hitler believed in the supernatural powers of this spear.His motives were certainly not pure and ironically, he was very fearful of evil but chose to study the Dark Arts. So, what ever Hitler may have been, he certainly was not an Atheist.. I live in Australia a very secular, multi cultural society, yet Atheism or Agnosticism is fast becoming the majority stance.Religion is kept out of our constitution.We have lower crime rates per capita than USA..Morality is not exclusive. Its innate.
777ren 3 years ago
3}.I find the notion of morality born of fear most disturbing.That is, the Christian belief in external punishment.{Heaven Hell}One behaves because one wasn't a ticket into heaven. Where I choose to be a good, morally humanistic being because it feels right.Because fairness and love make our brief existence on earth workable and cooperative. I don't need the reward of ever lasting life in Heaven to motivate me.I choose to be a compassionate because the system of mutual respect works.
777ren 3 years ago
4] cont..Please excuse a couple of typo's in my number 3} comment..Correction> eternal punishment..and One behaves because one wants a ticket..
777ren 3 years ago
5} The old Testament is a human construct. It is a product of the time and reflects the cultural and religious differences of a morally developing country. Look at Leviticus and show me a compassionate, loving, forgiving God.The Old Testament mirrors a dysfunctional, warring,vengeful God where its ok to stone a child or a woman to death for the most trivial of acts. Slavery is just according to the God of the Old Testament.I spent the first 15 yrs of my life indoctrinated by the Church.
777ren 3 years ago
6} Finally {as I don't wish to take up too much of yr time} God is a manifestation of a fear the unknown, the unexplainable. 2000 yrs on and we can answer many of lifes mysteries.We don't need an omnipotent being to provide us with the story of Genesis. Evidentially,God does not exist. Historically,one can actually follow the social evolution of religion. In laboratories the religious experience can be simulated using electrical pulses on brain.Religion is a by-product of early mans angst.
777ren 3 years ago
Thank you for providing this interesting series of videos. and for encouraging a friendly forum to share ideas...Regards to you....Rene.
777ren 3 years ago
Thank YOU for taking the time to post such clear and concise thoughts in such an eloquent manner. May they help others to let the light shine threw the darkness created by so much fear poured into their vulnerable brains. I think I want to move to Australia.....:-)
josealonsoleon 3 years ago
I cannot improve the reply 777ren gave you about Atheist societies and dictatorship, but I do wish to add a few more words. It was three in the morning yesterday when I wrote my comment from France were I live. Modern dictatorships were preceded by Monarchies, and to the best of my knowledge, all Kings whether they were christian or muslim were religion driven humans or at least they used it to control their people. How many were tortured, abused and killed in the name of their god?
josealonsoleon 3 years ago
Are you suggesting that President Obama is a hypocrite or a moral coward, who put his hand on Lincoln's Bible to placate the "Fundamentalists?" Could it be that he sincerely thinks that Lincoln and Martin Luther King really did draw their moral convictions and strength from the Bible that made it possible for a black man to become America's President?
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
Thank you for being openminded enough to interact with my videos even though you disagree with me.
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
This generation has seen the rise of a black president, and I am very proud of having witnessed this for all the pain blacks have endured. As I was watching the inauguration speech I was asking myself, will I ever see a non religious president during my lifetime. Probably not, but Obama did speak on behalf of Christians, Muslims, and as incredible as it sounded to my ears, non believers of which I am proud to be one of them. He truly brings HOPE. Humanity's cancer, religion.
josealonsoleon 3 years ago
A President has to be a leader of every American - including of unbelievrs and criminals. God is a compassionate Father of us all.
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
Darn it there you go again....what does god have to do with Obama and his presidency? Oh and how compassionate is a deity that will let you rot in hell and will ask you to kill and torture in his name? Come on man wake up and smell the coffee, there has been more crimes against humanity and genocides and brothers killing their own brothers in his name then you can imagine. Or maybe you can and just have a short memory. check out this web site that's all it talks about massviolence dot o rg
josealonsoleon 3 years ago
"Oh and how compassionate is a deity that will let you rot in hell and will ask you to kill and torture in his name?"
So compassionate that he gives us undeserving sinners every chance we need to change our ways and turn to him.
It is the people who refuse to do this that send themselves to hell.
Also, what do you mean by "torture in his name"?
shernga 3 years ago
See that's exactly my point, religions were invented by strong intelligent people to take control of the minds and subsequently the bodies and purses of simple minded people by using tactics such as these to scare the daylights from them so that they could have control over them. Ain't nothing more terrifying and enslaving for a human being then FEAR. It is stronger then firearms and keeps working for ever in the poor minds of the people that allow it to take control of their thoughts.
josealonsoleon 3 years ago
I'm not a Christian just because someone "scared the daylights" out of me.
I sincerely belive everything the Bible says, and no one will ever be able to convince me otherwise.
shernga 3 years ago
So then you believe that it is ok to stone a child or a woman to death for having done something however mundane but that broke a sacred rule? Pleaaaaaaase get a life. And if you read all of the Bible you would not say things like "I sincerely believe EVERYTHING the Bible says", oh and yes the best part, in the beginning the main protagonists lived to be 800 to 900 years....hahahahaha You gotta be kidding!
josealonsoleon 3 years ago
If that is the law of the land that that woman lives in, and she breaks the law.. knowing the consequences, then yes. The Bible teaches us to obey the laws of the land. She knew what would happen but she did it anyways, therefore condemning herself to whatever the punishment may be.
And, actually, i have read the entire Bible. Three times. And i still believe everything it says.
You can believe what you want, but i know what i believe, and when i die, i know where i'm going.
shernga 3 years ago
Well I''m sorry to read that there are still people like you in this day and age. So if you are a person that would stone a child or a women or any human being for that matter for having transgressed a religious law then I have to end this conversation by something you people know well....go to hell and burn eternally.
josealonsoleon 3 years ago
1.) I never said anything about stoning a child
2.) I never said anything about transgressing a religious law, i was talking about secular, national laws.
3.) Don't twist my words to make yourself feel better.
And yes, there are still "people like me" around. Just as there have been for thousands of years, and will always be until Jesus comes back. And when he does, I won't be burning in hell.
shernga 3 years ago
See that's exactly my point, religions were invented by strong intelligent people to take control of the minds and subsequently the bodies and purses of simple minded people by using tactics such as these to sacre the daylights from them so that they could take control over them. Ain't nothing more terrifying and enslaving for a human beig then FEAR. It is stronger then firearms and keeps working forever in the minds of the poor people that allow it to take control of their thoughts.
josealonsoleon 3 years ago
I really like how you associate non believers and criminals by putting us side by side, but wasn't it Jesus who on the cross said to the poor bastard criminal who was dying beside him on the other cross that he would reach heaven before all the others? hahahahaha hallelujah I am going to heaven, praise the lord......hahahahahaha
josealonsoleon 3 years ago
and wasn't it that same criminal who in his last moments on Earth humbled himself and turned to Jesus?
yes, i believe it was.
shernga 3 years ago
Yup you got that story right. Proof that what is written stays and said words vanish, but ain't no proff they were written by your god!
josealonsoleon 3 years ago
ain't no proof*** they weren't!
shernga 3 years ago
Oh yes there is, nobody pays him royalties for the worlds best selling boo, and if he was so powerful he'd be pissed and would be protecting his copyrights.
Read your history books Shernga, learn about humanity and find your real YOU not what others want you to be threw their religious indoctrination.
Goodbye
josealonsoleon 3 years ago
That is one of the most ridiculous things i've heard in a while. I'm positive that God has no concerns about copyright infringements.I've read history books, and i'm a fairly intelligent person. Everything that the Bible predicted has happened or is happening, and there's no reason to believe it will not continue.
p.s. I've read history books, but maybe you should read some English books and learn that in the case of your previous comment, the correct word would be "through". Not "threw".
shernga 3 years ago
Obama wants to push Abortion and Gay Rights..
It would be horrible blaspehmy if he "swears" on the bible
flanger7777 3 years ago
Is it possible for a prodigal son to take some steps towards his father even if he does not know the Father's heart and mind in its totality? Should we follow the elder brother or the Father in embracing him with the love of the Father - so that he may see more of what the Father is like?
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
I think he does not know Jesus or the Bible at all.
When you are born again in Yahwehs spirit, his law of love is written in your heart, you know the truth, and you hate the sin as god hates.
Someone who wants to make it easier to kill babys is obviously not born again.
(Further i think, that Obama clearly knows what he is doing, and that he is a puppet of the Elite (Rockefeller, Rothschild etc./Bilderberg, CFR, TLC) and fulfilling their evil plans for a fascistic severe New World Order!
flanger7777 3 years ago
Christianity shouldn't be taken lightly.
Openly supporting things that are obviously and strictly against God's word and then swearing on that same word and saying things like, "God bless America", is horrible hypocrisy in my book.
shernga 3 years ago
We do have to be vigilant about Machiavellian abuse of the Scriptures by priests, prophets and politicians. But would it be wrong for an alcoholic to ask his children to refrain from drinking and to wish God's blessing upon them
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
No, but this "alcoholic" should straighten himself up before he decides to lead a nation under the name of God.
shernga 3 years ago
America's Moral Majority has reduced itself to Moral Minority because many of its spokesmen were driven not by the compassionate spirit of the Father but by the judgmental spirit of the Prodigal's elder brother. The younger brother knows that he is ruining America's socio-economic capital but since he is not with the pigs yet, he prefers the company of his terrible friends than to have to live with his older brother - who needs to become like his Father as much as the Prodigal does.
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
Who are the brothers you mentioning?
flanger7777 3 years ago
While the younger brother is away from his Father, is he allowed to say that "He is my Father;" or,"That is my Father's home;" or, "This is my Father's Word?" Is President-elect Obama allowed to say to the world that the Bible is the reason why I have become America's President?" Or, would older brothers object to that?
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
Help me, I have no clue what you are talking about! This sounds weird! Sorry =)
flanger7777 3 years ago
The younger brothers in America defy God's authority openly. The older brothers lack Father's compassion for the rebels. They refuse to rejoice with those who rejoice in America's magnificent triumph over sin of racism.
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
we triumphed over racism a long time ago.
its not like having a black president will suddenly make all remaining racism cease.
shernga 3 years ago
shernga....Please forgive my contradiction, America is far from triumphing over racism.There may exist anti vilification laws etc. yet fundamentally, racism has its retched grip on many Christian lobby groups.For example "The American rifle association" ironically this powerful political lobby group supports death penalty and a right to bear arms, when the majority of men on death row are young black men and it is estimated that worrying percentage of these are possibly innocent.
777ren 3 years ago
2} continued..There exists a worrying trend within some of the so called "Christian, political lobbyists"
Extreme Christian fundamentalism carries many smaller, though no less significant, umbrella organisations. For example The Ku Klux Klan,and The right to bare arms..Racism also thrives within middle American society and takes a more subtle, insipid manifestation. Non Anglo's are over represented in prison, addiction and many of the more marginalised socio economical categories.
777ren 3 years ago
Yes, i agree that racism still exists in groups around America, but that is an individual thing. The government can't control beliefs and morals of its people.
However, America as a nation has overcome racism. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 outlawed racial segregation in schools, public places, employments, etc.
Bias based on race is now illegal in the US. Every legislation needed to stop racism has been passed, racism itself exists in the individual, and no kind of law will ever stop that.
shernga 3 years ago
You are right. There is a difference between institutionalized racism and person sin. Apostle Paul and Barnabas fought against Christians who wanted to institutionalize segregation between Jewish and non-Jewish believers. Paul argued that all are one in Christ. Institutionalization of racism can be political (e.g. apartheid) or religious (e.g. caste-system in India). The first gets legal sanction the second religious. Law cannot eradicate private sin, but it does define evil.
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
It is not natural for human beings to love our neighbors as ourselves. Upper caste Hindus treat lower caste Hindus as "untouchables", "polluting". Shias and Sunnis fight each other. Xenophobia is a huge issue in countries such as Russia or Ukraine. That is why the command "love your neighbor as yourself" is needed. But command is not enough: loving our personal, class or race "enemies" is a fruit of the Spirit. If love was only chemistry we could not serve our enemies.
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
It is very true that being sinners human beings find it hard to love their spouses, let alone love their neighbors as themselves.
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
As 777ren so well put it America and the world for that matter has not triumphed over racism. My parents left Spain 50 years ago and went back to their village when they retired. I visit them often and I have witnessed to my shameful amazement bar tenders refusing to serve Arabs in their bar. Racism will have disappeared in America and the world when we no longer speak of a black a president. You are a good or bad president, black has no place in the discussion.
josealonsoleon 3 years ago
Thank you dear participants for your animated discussion. I was moving my home and office this week and so could not participate. I am on my belated Christmas vacation this weekend and start teaching on monday in Kona, HI - and hope to participate in the conversation. Meanwhile - don't you think we will all benefit if we focussed our comments on the topic of each video? I hope to make videos on other important issues that you have raised -e.g. existence of God, atheism etc.
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
Great work Mr. Mangalwadi. But will the snobbish and condescending attitude of the American scholars be willing and open to listen to what an Indian Scholar have to say? I have heard condescending comments about Indian/Asian theology.
littlewings08 3 years ago
Thank you for your compliments. Generally, I find Americans are both fair and generous. Scholars have a right to disagree with me and I hope that they will interact with my arguments - especially as we hope to have several more videos up in the next few days.
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
Yet we can hope that Dr. Mangalwadi will address these issues in a future segment.
bjorakrat 3 years ago
Many Church leaders have abused the Bible, therefore it would not be surprising if politicians also use religion as a useful tool for manipulating the masses. My short film series is meant to teach the Biblical worldview and values, so that the ritual transforms reality.
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
While I find the premise of this video intriguing, why would we expect a man of Obama's religious beliefs to uphold or promote values that the Christian faith community doesn't even promote in the public arena? The pastors and priests of America had better deal with the larger problem of teaching their flocks to walk out the principles of the Kingdom in society at large before we expect a neophyte government servant to lead the country in such a manner . . .
mspengler7 3 years ago
The comments of mspengler7, bryanjjones and others show that, to many people, the symbolic gesture of putting a hand on the Bible means more than merely "honoring" the Bible for its positive influence on society. It means something like (a) submitting oneself to the authority of the Bible, conversely,(b) invoking the Bible as legitimation for one's own authority. None of us believes President Obama will really do (a), and surely none of us wants him to do (b).
bjorakrat 3 years ago
I have continously engaged in the political arena for over 25 years at every level in our state. The engagement of most members of the faith community in public policy begins and ends with voting - if at all. The worldview that drives that mentality is where the real challenge is, not in discussions of whether a Bible is present at a swearing in ceremony. Every politician will take advantage of the trappings/symbols which best suit his public perception whether believed or not.
mspengler7 3 years ago 2
You make a good point: the most important thing is not whether the symbol (the hand on the Bible) is used, but whether what it symbolizes (the Bible's authority and values) still have any effect. Could it be, though, that calling attention to the rich--but largely forgotten--content and history of this ritual will cause us to take the Bible itself more seriously?
bjorakrat 3 years ago
I desperately hope so, but I honestly doubt it. The problem goes much deeper. In my opinion it will take a transformation of the mind in understanding the nature of the Kingdom as espoused in Holy Writ. The challenge is to the churched not the unchurched . . . The Bible's authority and values will ALWAYS have a positive effect when coupled with faith and action.
mspengler7 3 years ago 2
You are making an important point. Let us explore the original and the changing worldview of America to see if the changes taking place are for the better.
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
King Josiah finds a dusty, forgotten copy of the Book of the Law in the temple, and it inspires him to make major government reforms. Let's hope that Obama will actually open, and actually read, the Bible, not just put his hand on it.
bjorakrat 3 years ago 2
You are right. Resources permitting I want to use this series of videos to explore the depths of the symbols and rituals involved in the Inauguration.
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
I wholly agree that the Bible is what gave our culture the virtues that allowed us to elect a minority, and have a peaceful transition of power. However, to me it sends the wrong message, and is an insult to the Bible for Obama to take an oath on the Bible that I believe he has no intention of upholding. The oath to uphold the constitution has been a blatant lie by all of the presidents in recent history, and I have no reason to think that Obama will have any more sincerity.
bryanjjones 3 years ago
The fact that you "believe" that Obama has "no intention of upholding" his oath shows that America is becoming a culture of promise breakers. Trust is disappearing. That is a sign that the sun may be setting on the West. But it need not. Do please listen to my lectures "Must the Sun Set on the Wes?" and join my blog to be launched after Christmas - Vishal
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
I actually attended your lecture series, and highly recommend it as a wonderful description of the extent to which the Bible has shaped the West.
The Bible needs to return to the center of western thought. However, using it as a meaningless symbol in a ceremony, that I see standing in opposition to the Bibles actual teaching, does not do this. It frustrates me to see our leaders destroying the rule of law while giving lip service to the book that gave rise to the rule of law.
bryanjjones 3 years ago 2
All rituals, religious or not, can become empty or even manipulative. They will become empty if no one even teaches what they mean. Swearing on the Bible is a ritual and our series is meant to explore the meaning of the ritual as well as the place of the Bible in America's past as well ad future. Please pray that we may have the resources to make 52 videos in 2009.
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago
Congrats on the first segment. Keep them coming.
bjorakrat 3 years ago
Thank you Mr. Bjoraker for your encouragement and help.
VishalMangalwadi 3 years ago