Here's the message from Jones: "Become free, but follow me". Anyone listening to this liar is listening to a person who is being paid by the same people he speaks out against. We have no one to "lead" us anywhere except to hell because the ONLY one we have isn't here anymore, but He left His spirit with us to show us ourselves, who is truthful and who is deceptive, and this guy, to include Ron Paul TO INCLUDE the clergy, are deceptive. Jones was allowed into the BH compound by his satanic bros.
I am so glad I have the private industry and independent churches and patriots handling a real attack on the US with my computer program. All should read my web site listed under my profile. We don't need FEMA mind control and mindless people control when this war breaks out. They would have wished they sided with us and listened to the best prophets in the US instead of Washington.
If this is Pastor John Bevere, Wow.. I'm so glad hearing this. Because this pastor was branded to help usher the New World dis-Order. I'm so glad he finally come to his right mind. Even if i'm too late about this news. I'm really glad about it.
alex speaks many truths, but he seems to tiptoe around the fact that the real terrorists, instead of extremist muslims, are the zionist jews. similar belief systems, but the zionist control the media and have the coin to do whatever they want. fuck zionism and all extremist religious types
The church is not the enemy. The state is not the enemy. Your next-door neighbor is not the enemy. Corruption is the enemy. When church and state become united...corruption skyrockets. People are persecuted and killed. This is a historical fact. The teachings of Jesus and the U.S. Constitution are minimalist, non-corrupt church and state. I call it the True World Order(TWO). TWO trumps NWO. Game Over.
I can tell that you hate tyrants, as do I. I would love for you to be inspired by Jesus Christ, but if not, don't let that be an excuse to alienate yourself from those who would fight these tyrants with you, and for you. "Real" Christians love liberty, and not just their own liberty, and not just other Christian's liberty.
Here is an idea. How about we follow the lead of every other industrialized nation on this planet and move away from this mindless and ignorant belief in religions. We are the only modernized country in the world where the number religious sheep are on the increase. No surprise we are also the leading modern nation in economic decline.
Keep praying you bunch of idiots. See how quick that fixes our problems.
Praying is for cowards and hand wringers. Action is for real patriots and men.
Spot on cajunatheist. The USA is importing brains from the rest of the world to fill the gaps in its flagging education and research systems. The USA is becoming dumber at an alarming rate, and religion is a primary reason for this. China will overtake the USA in every area this century and it's all because the USA would rather hallucinate about God than deal with the real world which they are now too dumb to properly cope with. G'night Superpower.
Hi formless777. You know, some of the most "educated" people who forged the foundations of this country, were very religious. Their religion is what motivated them. You are being very biased about the history of religious thought. I agree we are "dumb" now, but the evidence of the lack of "real" religion seems to be more of a catalyst, rather than what you have stated.
Lol and what exactly is "real" religion ? That sounds like an oxymoron to me. So do you think it is sensible to teach creationism or intelligent design in schools ? I think it is ridiculous that 21st Century humanity is even prepared to take bronze age mythology seriously in the face of serious evidence. Religion has been a marvelous way to get normally moral people to behave in completely evil ways. To quote Jesus, "You know a tree by its fruit", and religion is rotten.
I can understand your "oxymoron" sensibilities in light of the fact that you claim not to have a religion. You do have one, actually. I don't believe in "public" schools. A family that wants their children to be taught the tenants of creationism should have that freedom. Those children are "theirs", not the state's. If you want your children to be taught evolution, have at it. Just don't force mine to follow your religion. Jesus is right.
No, I have no religion. Religion is the root of all evil, and I refuse to govern my life by the scribbles of bronze age savages. Their message is for a different age and was a nasty anti-human message even then, by and large. If you want your children to be taught lies, be my guest, but not at my expense as a tax payer, and not in a government building. Incidentally, saying Jesus is right constitutes a judgement, and as you know, only your god makes those. Off to hell with you...
You do govern your life by a "religion". You have stated it plainly right here. You just don't want to call it that. Fine. I thank you for agreeing that tax payers are not responsible for someone elses education. Let's agree on that and unite, on at least that.
You are putting words in my mouth. Are you trying to be insulting ? Religion is a belief in a supernatural authority. I don't accept such a thing. How are you defining it.
Furthermore, I wrote that I don't want my tax dollars going to teach people lies. That means belief in a supernatural authority as much as anything else as far as I am concerned. I have no problem with supporting my government in investing in future generations learning useful things. Religion isn't useful.
Sorry. So, you want MY tax dollars going to a public education that teaches what I and millions of others, would consider to be lies? How hypocritical is that? I thought you were "against" a tyranical state. Evidently, you want to use the state to control those who don't agree with you. It is YOU who are at odds with liberty. This is your religion. It is called, "The State".
There is nothing tyrannical about paying for education with decent standards of evidence. Religion has no evidence to support it. Who apart from Penn & Teller (who are Atheists) can perform the miracles of Jesus ? It is not religion to demand that if people make outrageous claims that they be required to provide evidence, and ignored if they can't. That isn't hypocrisy or Statism, that's demanding a basis in FACTS for the things we teach our children. That isn't unreasonable.
You are very much missing the point formless777. You can't "demand" anything from me and I can't "demand" anything from you, except, for you to let me, and I to let you, live our lives as we see fit. That's why I don't agree with public education. Your idea of reality is very different from mine.
I don't care how much "scientific" evidence you claim to have. It is irrelevant to my liberty to live my life as I see fit and to believe what I chose to believe. Got it? I don't want people who have come to different conclusions about life than me, to dictate what I believe.
Well dragging you kicking and screaming into a semblance of reality would be enormously counter-productive so I won't endorse it. But I will also work hard to ensure that your baseless beliefs have no place in public education except as a cultural curiosity in Anthropology like cargo cults, circumcision rituals, and such. I don't even feel religion has anything to offer Philosophy anymore, because all the arguments have already been made and religion has already lost them all.
No, but as a citizen paying for education,I can make demands. Demands that are actually pretty routine in the education system. It is perfectly reasonable to make demands for proof if someone says something ridiculous, such as "Be good or my monstrous sky tyrant will punish us". And when they can't meet that proof, because what they believe is wrong, they deserve to be ridiculed and/or ignored for telling lies.
You seem to have a love/hate relationship with the 'state'. Why do you think extreme measures are counter-productive but educational measures are not? What is the difference? I really want to know. When I am "forced" to pay a tax on my children's education, I am a victim of tyrany. I want my 7 kids to believe what I believe, not what you believe. Sound civil?
Of course I have a love/hate relationship with the state. There are some parts of it I think are really good and parts I actively dislike. Is there anyone out there who honestly feels differently ? The education you are forced to pay for is evidence based, and therefore more reliably true than your bible, which has no reliable evidence to support its supernatural claims. Your children should have a right to choose what they believe for themselves, and you are a tyrant for choosing for them.
I still don't get it. Do you think I should be "forced" to pay for what I disagree with? Secondly, I don't "choose" for my children, rather, I am "responsible" for them. Sure, they will "choose" for themselves, (and have), once they have all the facts. I believe that my position is much more substantiated than yours by evidence which I impart to my children. This does not make me a tyrant, but a responsible parent who loves his children and wants them to be well informed.
Thirdly, please don't make this a debate about religion. We are strictly talking about freedom of conscience and the usurping of government on individual sovereignty.
Religion is integral to this discussion. Religion, specifically Christianity in this case is trying to breach the constitution's separation of Church & State through "faith based initiatives", such as this very FEMA Pastors nightmare. It is also trying to get lies taught as truth in schools. Religion's track record in power is ugly and inhuman and it needs to be stopped or there is no democracy to defend, and no rights for anyone save what our new evil religious masters deign fit.
This is one of the points I am trying to make myself. I don't want religion OR the state, to dictate to anybody what they should believe. Religion AND the state share historical blame for tyrany. The way to guard against this is to guarantee the "rights of the INDIVIDUAL" to do as his own conscience dictates, and not as the state or some religion wants to dictate. I don't see how much difference we would have here.
To some degree I sympathize, however there is a problem I can see. Education is a collective effort because knowledge is becoming more specialized. Are you arguing that if neither religions nor the state should run education, that corporations should ? After all, there are incorporated schools, but most people couldn't afford them.
For the religious, they can start their own schools. For any other "non-religious" organizations, they can do the same, (both for their own children). Even though I don't want state-run schools, I do believe there should be an option to pay the state a "voluntary" tax to send their kids to a state-run school, only if they want to. And of course, parents can teach their children without any collective school.
That is a pretty eccentric view. Most parents agree that their children need education and the Government has realized that an educated population is integral to the prosperity of a country. As education is seen as a public priority and schooling millions of kids is too big for parents, religions, or even large corporations to manage, the responsibility has fallen to government as the largest national economic player. Under consultation with academics, the set a pretty reasonable curriculum.
This only seems eccentric because we've been conditioned to think that our kids belong to the gov't and they must be "conditioned" for the collective good. That is a collective philosophy which is opposed to individual liberty and is the primary source of tyrany. Very dangerous. And again, I'm not so much concerned about curriculum, as I am with "brain washing" into slavery by the collectivism of the state.
And, "schooling millions of kids", is not the responsibility of mom and dad; just their own kids. So the problem is not so big that "the government has to do it". Only if you buy-in to the collectivist philosophy, would you think that all kids need to think exactly the same, like cloned slaves.
And too, the "corporate state", is in need of the clones to suit their own purposes. They don't want people to think for themselves creatively and build competitive enterprise. The actually do need slaves only; even "well-educated" slaves.
COLLECTIVISM: Holds that man is not an end to himself, but is only a tool to serve the ends of others. Collectivism, unlike individualism, holds the group as the primary, and the standard of moral value. -- the point is that man in principle is a sacrificial victim, whose only value is his ability to sacrifice his happiness for the will of the "group".
INDIVIDUALISM: (Liberty) Holds that each and every man, may live his own life for his own happiness, as an end to himself. Politically, the result of such as principle is the individual does not live by permission of others, but by inalienable right.
Individualism is not the same as liberty. Having to rely only on yourself and your own resources is not a desirable state of affairs. It is a tyranny of isolation and alienation, and effectively dis-empowerment at its extreme. Divide and conquer is a very old tactic, and you seem to be advocating division so your people will be open to conquest. Lol, do you think your man-god Jesus advocated individualism ? Nope, he loathed merchants and free enterprise and went everywhere with 12 men.
People "united" in liberty, are the closest and most tolerant people you'll ever meet. They will fight and die to protect the liberty of their fellow man no matter how different they are. Collectivists, however, only fight because they are "told" to. They have no heart because they are conditioned clones and are forced to obey man without any real thought or principal.
And you can substitute the word "fight" with "work" here as well. People who understand personal liberty have a much greater respect for each other in every way. Of course, I am speaking idealistically.
Actually I see a big problem here. The self-discipline involved in separating liberty from license. If a person isn't particularly answerable for their actions, why would they need to show any respect for anyone ? The social isolation implicit in individualism actually encourages people to hate and fear their fellows, and the disparity in wealth that occurs because individuals have no need or desire to share encourages crime, to reinforce that fear and isolation.
But that liberty is ultimately a bit of an illusion really isn't it ? After all, liberty is as likely to drive people apart as together and really regardless of their political ideology no-one ever escapes their culture, which is the really deep seated conditioning. You are also dehumanizing the people who think differently to you. The fact is that nobody is "told" to participate in a popular uprising, and collectivists have been involved in heaps of those.
Personal liberty only works in the framework of law. This is what prevents anarchy. However, that law must be such that protects the indivudual OVER the collective. This encourages individuality, as well as civilty. I believe the "dehumanizing" is done by the collectivist philosophy (by its very definition). I am just making a judgment on the end result of such a philosophy.
Law is the work of government as the representative of the people and the broader culture. You are hiding behind the collective to defend your rights as an individual. How dare you ? ROFL. You hate mommy but go running home to her for protection, lol. Similarly, you say that collectivists are all programmed and brainwashed clones. That is dehumanization and probably racism, as most collectivist cultures aren't white bread.
Well, the fact is that collective enterprises are appropriate for some things. Try running a gas plant or a hydro-electric power station on your own. If you live amongst people, co-operating with them is a great way of getting things done. Individualism seems to forget this.
A business that hires employees or subcontractors to run things is not a literal collective in a free society. It is individuals who enter contract to serve their own personal interests.
I have never met anybody who attends any educational institution who think exactly alike. What you are saying is an empty rhetorical device. Nobody is cloned, and frankly, what makes you think that a free-market corporate equivalent wouldn't turn out "slaves" as you put it ? Just a different "whip hand" if you ask me...
They may have different opinions within the system, but they are constantly being conformed to the collective through peer-pressure. The longer this goes on, the less and less "original" thought is tolerated.
Ah, now that is something I agree with. If collective societies have a weakness it seems to be in an unwillingness to question authority, and that does handicap original thought and technological development. In fact, this is part of why I dislike religion. Religion encourages a lot of this style of unquestioning conformity and that is one part of why I despise it. Frankly, the Essenes, who are supposed to be Jesus' sect were deeply collectivist.
Then I would ask you, why do you condone collectivism with such a counter-productive weakness? As to your religious point, I can't speak for all religions, but Christianity promotes personal liberty, (among men), and being "not conformed". As I've stated previously here, Christianity recognizes all men as free agents with liberty of conscience. Those who would shackle that liberty, in any way, (collectivism), are labled as tyrants.
By the way, those tyrants would include historical "theocracies", and the so-called "church", in various parts of history, as well as today. Usurpers of "God's authority", exist within and without religious circles. What I mean is, only "God" has authority over men's conscience; not other men. (The Christian view). Only "the law", has this authority, (the secular view). But still, NOT other men.
Once again, what better justification for a Tyrant on Earth than a Tyrant in Heaven ? Your god may not have a graven image, but that doesn't mean that worshiping a false idea of god isn't idolatry. The thing you worship is evil. You fear to bow to the state, and yet bow to a delusionary authority that drives men to mad and foul acts, and is undisputably the propaganda work of savages from antiquity. Pardon me...ROFL.
I'm not trying to change the subject, but we are just going in circles here, and you seem to have a chip on your shoulder. Keep your chip if you want, and no one can take it off but you, if you'd rather do that. You seem very bitter. I'm going to narrow this discussion down to here. I won't change your mind, (whatever it is), and you won't change mine. Feel free to post a new thought, but really, none of your last posts made any real sense to me. Try again?
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It's pretty simple. Calling people names and assuming that they are less than human because they follow a more collectivist philosophy, whether through choice or culture, actually dehumanizes YOU. Furthermore, your argument in favor of individualism, is at odds with the ruthlessly conformist and collectivist religion to which you belong. Similarly you reject science which is highly meritocratic and individualist for spurious religious reasons. Simple really.
Hey formless777, one of the reasons I am frustrated with you is because you can't see that my personal philosophy does not dehumanize anyone. I've repeatedly told you that my beliefs elevate EVERYONE to the "image of God". However, it seems, because of your anti-religious attitude, you can't accept that. You don't have to believe what I believe, but you should be thrilled that my beliefs do more than "humanize" you; they elevate you to "the image of God". Can you deal with that?
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I think in the main collectivism is preferable, however I don't think it should be taken to a logical extreme. I do think that certain brakes need to be put on the power of the collective so its ability to destroy people's lives is limited. I also believe in a mixed economy, not a free market nightmare.
As to christianity and tyranny... The Kingdom of God is not a democracy, you have no rights there, and most christians regard free will as the source of all evil.
Yet all collectivist societies also have dissenting voices. They aren't always treated fairly, but can you name a society where dissenting voices are always treated fairly ? I can't. Every society has "blotted its copybook" on that one.
That is just paranoia. Parents know full well that the govt doesn't own their kids. Furthermore, individual liberty is not some wonder-cure for the world's ills. In fact individual liberty is often dangerously criminal in its outcomes. Consider the paragon of individual liberty, the Wild West Era. It was a time of atrocities, but hindsight and distance make it seem fun. In fact, most people were very grateful when Govt and stability arrived.
Then why do parents "act" like the gov't owns their kids? They are "conditioned". Every societal system has corruption, as all men can be corrupted, but personal liberty lends to checks and balances on corruption as power is not centralized; this is not the same as anarchy as you seem to imply. Collectivism, on the other hand, has produced the greatest corruption the world has ever seen.
Actually if you look at the highly collectivist Scandinavian countries, all of them have less corruption than the USA. Singapore also has less corruption and it is highly collectivist. Individualism taken to its logical conclusion is anarchy as it represents a disregard for anything which ultimately is not to one's perceived benefit.
Like I mentioned before, liberty must be tempered by law, and only law that protects the indivudual OVER the collective. The corruption in the USA from my observation, is a direct result of ignoring these laws; (Constitution, Bill of Rights, Declaration, etc...)
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So now you're hiding behind the government ? Where is Law if not residing with the government and its agencies, such as the judiciary ? Ultimately without the support of the collective, individualism is a death sentence for most humans. And I disagree with your analysis of the situation. How can any dare call it corruption if it suits the individuals who benefit ? Also it goes against the interests of the collective so you should support corruption as an individualist.
The same could be asked of religion. Why do worshipers think of themselves as the progeny of a sky monster father figure ? Isn't that conditioning ? Now take science for example, there a complete meritocracy reigns and you can win lasting acclaim for dragging down moribund theories at the expense of collective opinion. Take Darwin facing off against the religious establishment of the day. An individual using the merit of his argument to defeat the ignorant collective.
Okay, so you want them to choose once they have all the facts. Don't you want an education system that will provide them with facts that the finest minds in history and the best research in the world have concluded are the most broadly inclusive and accurate theories of how things work ? That is what science provides, and what religion ignores in favor of hanging on to the scribbles of bronze age hebrew savages. Read the Book of Judges to your children and make sure to explain it well...
I'll say it again. I don't want a "state" educational system at all. If there is no state-run schools, then the state won't have a chance to abuse an individual's conscience, and religion won't have a chance to influence the state to abuse an individual's conscience. This solves both of our concerns. So again, religion is irrelevant here. It is the protection of the right of the individual to have freedom of conscience which should be highlighted.
Look, if you are so very scared that your children will lose faith just because they go to a state run school, obviously you know how silly religion looks in the face of common sense and reason. Worse still, religion demands that you stay willfully ignorant and have "faith" that it is true when it clearly isn't. The reason you want to deny your children the information that will set them free is that you fear that freedom yourself, and your conscience knows it.
On the contrary. Our children know they do well to learn ALL alternative thought to better understand their chosen positions. We don't encourage blind faith, but rather, a position of wisdom, which can only come with knowledge and experience. This gives them confidence in the face of all arguments; and of course, a chance to modify their own positions should they see the wisdom in that.
Furthermore, it has become obvious that state-run schools have discouraged critical thinking, and in fact, have been training the mind NOT to think critically. So, it is not the information I am afraid of, but what scares me is the process of dumbing down the thinking process.
By the way, if you don't believe this fact that the state-run schools are destroying the thinking process, then you should check out the info from John Taylor Gatto, johntaylorgatto(dot)com.
While I agree that standards of education seem to be falling, this has much more to do with the collapse of the work conditions and pay rates of teachers than on the curriculum. Teaching has been a decaying career prospect for decades due to administrative neglect. Pay peanuts get monkeys. In any case, the decline has not been across the board. Some schools have recovered considerably, some never really declined, but there are some real basket case schools.
Though what you say here is true, it is insignificant compared to the enourmity and complexity of the problem. If you checked out the material by John Taylor Gatto, I think you'd see what I'm talking about. And, those "recoverd" schools you speak of, are simply basket case schools with a bandaid, and are still brain-washing centers.
For the religious, they can start their own schools. For any other "non-religious" organizations, they can do the same, (both for their own children). Even though I don't want state-run schools, I do believe there should be an option to pay the state a "voluntary" tax to send their kids to a state-run school, only if they want to. And of course, parents can teach their children without any collective school.
Primarily I am using it as a figure of speech, like "you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink" or "time you were dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century". I don't endorse using force to change people's opinions, even though religion has a history of doing exactly that.
I can tell that you hate tyrants, as do I. I would love for you to be inspired by Jesus Christ, but if not, don't let that be an excuse to alienate yourself from those who would fight these tyrants with you, and for you. "Real" Christians love liberty, and not just their own liberty, and not just other Christian's liberty.
My God judges you and me as "after His own image". We are the same. (This is my belief. You should welcome my opinion of you as it is FOR you, not against you, whether you believe it or not.)
Babylonian churches teaching another doctrine and their people that refuse to seek and find if what they preach are in line with the whole of scripture or not. A major clue that you may be in a corrupt church is if they are a 501 (C) 3 tax exempt IRS approved Church. If they are, they already sold out Christ for Money and Growth, etceteras.
Thank you so much for posting this! This is a perfect example of why it's time for Christians not only to come out of government schools, but government churches. In China, the house churches are having a Mighty move of God. The house churches in America are next!
I believe it as well! Your comment brought me joy! The VISIBLE church above ground will be the Babylon church. But the underground church will be the Body of Christ...Christ's bride. tribulation & persecution will bring this about.
Here's the message from Jones: "Become free, but follow me". Anyone listening to this liar is listening to a person who is being paid by the same people he speaks out against. We have no one to "lead" us anywhere except to hell because the ONLY one we have isn't here anymore, but He left His spirit with us to show us ourselves, who is truthful and who is deceptive, and this guy, to include Ron Paul TO INCLUDE the clergy, are deceptive. Jones was allowed into the BH compound by his satanic bros.
Queenyinthehouse 1 year ago
I am so glad I have the private industry and independent churches and patriots handling a real attack on the US with my computer program. All should read my web site listed under my profile. We don't need FEMA mind control and mindless people control when this war breaks out. They would have wished they sided with us and listened to the best prophets in the US instead of Washington.
BungalowBud 1 year ago
If this is Pastor John Bevere, Wow.. I'm so glad hearing this. Because this pastor was branded to help usher the New World dis-Order. I'm so glad he finally come to his right mind. Even if i'm too late about this news. I'm really glad about it.
FollowerOfGod3 1 year ago
@FollowerOfGod3 Who are you, you idiot?
rdknight6 1 year ago
Alex Jones ftw. Thanks for the vid :)
karlkarlkarl1234 2 years ago
alex speaks many truths, but he seems to tiptoe around the fact that the real terrorists, instead of extremist muslims, are the zionist jews. similar belief systems, but the zionist control the media and have the coin to do whatever they want. fuck zionism and all extremist religious types
beardedswine 2 years ago
he doesn't tip toe around it., it's not true, so he doesn't state it, because he doesn't believe it.
clairemarielucas 2 years ago
The church is not the enemy. The state is not the enemy. Your next-door neighbor is not the enemy. Corruption is the enemy. When church and state become united...corruption skyrockets. People are persecuted and killed. This is a historical fact. The teachings of Jesus and the U.S. Constitution are minimalist, non-corrupt church and state. I call it the True World Order(TWO). TWO trumps NWO. Game Over.
redletterchurch 3 years ago
If I understand you correctly, I think I like that. Thanks.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
I can tell that you hate tyrants, as do I. I would love for you to be inspired by Jesus Christ, but if not, don't let that be an excuse to alienate yourself from those who would fight these tyrants with you, and for you. "Real" Christians love liberty, and not just their own liberty, and not just other Christian's liberty.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
Here is an idea. How about we follow the lead of every other industrialized nation on this planet and move away from this mindless and ignorant belief in religions. We are the only modernized country in the world where the number religious sheep are on the increase. No surprise we are also the leading modern nation in economic decline.
Keep praying you bunch of idiots. See how quick that fixes our problems.
Praying is for cowards and hand wringers. Action is for real patriots and men.
cajunatheist 3 years ago
Cajunatheist, you are ignorant to think that you can't unite with men that "pray". Are you against tyrany? So am I. I also pray. Grow up.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
Spot on cajunatheist. The USA is importing brains from the rest of the world to fill the gaps in its flagging education and research systems. The USA is becoming dumber at an alarming rate, and religion is a primary reason for this. China will overtake the USA in every area this century and it's all because the USA would rather hallucinate about God than deal with the real world which they are now too dumb to properly cope with. G'night Superpower.
formless777 3 years ago
Hi formless777. You know, some of the most "educated" people who forged the foundations of this country, were very religious. Their religion is what motivated them. You are being very biased about the history of religious thought. I agree we are "dumb" now, but the evidence of the lack of "real" religion seems to be more of a catalyst, rather than what you have stated.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
Lol and what exactly is "real" religion ? That sounds like an oxymoron to me. So do you think it is sensible to teach creationism or intelligent design in schools ? I think it is ridiculous that 21st Century humanity is even prepared to take bronze age mythology seriously in the face of serious evidence. Religion has been a marvelous way to get normally moral people to behave in completely evil ways. To quote Jesus, "You know a tree by its fruit", and religion is rotten.
formless777 3 years ago
I can understand your "oxymoron" sensibilities in light of the fact that you claim not to have a religion. You do have one, actually. I don't believe in "public" schools. A family that wants their children to be taught the tenants of creationism should have that freedom. Those children are "theirs", not the state's. If you want your children to be taught evolution, have at it. Just don't force mine to follow your religion. Jesus is right.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
No, I have no religion. Religion is the root of all evil, and I refuse to govern my life by the scribbles of bronze age savages. Their message is for a different age and was a nasty anti-human message even then, by and large. If you want your children to be taught lies, be my guest, but not at my expense as a tax payer, and not in a government building. Incidentally, saying Jesus is right constitutes a judgement, and as you know, only your god makes those. Off to hell with you...
formless777 3 years ago
You do govern your life by a "religion". You have stated it plainly right here. You just don't want to call it that. Fine. I thank you for agreeing that tax payers are not responsible for someone elses education. Let's agree on that and unite, on at least that.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
You are putting words in my mouth. Are you trying to be insulting ? Religion is a belief in a supernatural authority. I don't accept such a thing. How are you defining it.
Furthermore, I wrote that I don't want my tax dollars going to teach people lies. That means belief in a supernatural authority as much as anything else as far as I am concerned. I have no problem with supporting my government in investing in future generations learning useful things. Religion isn't useful.
formless777 3 years ago
Sorry. So, you want MY tax dollars going to a public education that teaches what I and millions of others, would consider to be lies? How hypocritical is that? I thought you were "against" a tyranical state. Evidently, you want to use the state to control those who don't agree with you. It is YOU who are at odds with liberty. This is your religion. It is called, "The State".
sermonwriter 3 years ago
There is nothing tyrannical about paying for education with decent standards of evidence. Religion has no evidence to support it. Who apart from Penn & Teller (who are Atheists) can perform the miracles of Jesus ? It is not religion to demand that if people make outrageous claims that they be required to provide evidence, and ignored if they can't. That isn't hypocrisy or Statism, that's demanding a basis in FACTS for the things we teach our children. That isn't unreasonable.
formless777 3 years ago
You are very much missing the point formless777. You can't "demand" anything from me and I can't "demand" anything from you, except, for you to let me, and I to let you, live our lives as we see fit. That's why I don't agree with public education. Your idea of reality is very different from mine.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
I don't care how much "scientific" evidence you claim to have. It is irrelevant to my liberty to live my life as I see fit and to believe what I chose to believe. Got it? I don't want people who have come to different conclusions about life than me, to dictate what I believe.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
Well dragging you kicking and screaming into a semblance of reality would be enormously counter-productive so I won't endorse it. But I will also work hard to ensure that your baseless beliefs have no place in public education except as a cultural curiosity in Anthropology like cargo cults, circumcision rituals, and such. I don't even feel religion has anything to offer Philosophy anymore, because all the arguments have already been made and religion has already lost them all.
formless777 3 years ago
No, but as a citizen paying for education,I can make demands. Demands that are actually pretty routine in the education system. It is perfectly reasonable to make demands for proof if someone says something ridiculous, such as "Be good or my monstrous sky tyrant will punish us". And when they can't meet that proof, because what they believe is wrong, they deserve to be ridiculed and/or ignored for telling lies.
formless777 3 years ago
I would apreciate it if you would define what you mean by "dragging me kicking and screaming would be enormously COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE", means.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
You seem to have a love/hate relationship with the 'state'. Why do you think extreme measures are counter-productive but educational measures are not? What is the difference? I really want to know. When I am "forced" to pay a tax on my children's education, I am a victim of tyrany. I want my 7 kids to believe what I believe, not what you believe. Sound civil?
sermonwriter 3 years ago
Of course I have a love/hate relationship with the state. There are some parts of it I think are really good and parts I actively dislike. Is there anyone out there who honestly feels differently ? The education you are forced to pay for is evidence based, and therefore more reliably true than your bible, which has no reliable evidence to support its supernatural claims. Your children should have a right to choose what they believe for themselves, and you are a tyrant for choosing for them.
formless777 3 years ago
I still don't get it. Do you think I should be "forced" to pay for what I disagree with? Secondly, I don't "choose" for my children, rather, I am "responsible" for them. Sure, they will "choose" for themselves, (and have), once they have all the facts. I believe that my position is much more substantiated than yours by evidence which I impart to my children. This does not make me a tyrant, but a responsible parent who loves his children and wants them to be well informed.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
Thirdly, please don't make this a debate about religion. We are strictly talking about freedom of conscience and the usurping of government on individual sovereignty.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
Religion is integral to this discussion. Religion, specifically Christianity in this case is trying to breach the constitution's separation of Church & State through "faith based initiatives", such as this very FEMA Pastors nightmare. It is also trying to get lies taught as truth in schools. Religion's track record in power is ugly and inhuman and it needs to be stopped or there is no democracy to defend, and no rights for anyone save what our new evil religious masters deign fit.
formless777 3 years ago
This is one of the points I am trying to make myself. I don't want religion OR the state, to dictate to anybody what they should believe. Religion AND the state share historical blame for tyrany. The way to guard against this is to guarantee the "rights of the INDIVIDUAL" to do as his own conscience dictates, and not as the state or some religion wants to dictate. I don't see how much difference we would have here.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
To some degree I sympathize, however there is a problem I can see. Education is a collective effort because knowledge is becoming more specialized. Are you arguing that if neither religions nor the state should run education, that corporations should ? After all, there are incorporated schools, but most people couldn't afford them.
formless777 3 years ago
For the religious, they can start their own schools. For any other "non-religious" organizations, they can do the same, (both for their own children). Even though I don't want state-run schools, I do believe there should be an option to pay the state a "voluntary" tax to send their kids to a state-run school, only if they want to. And of course, parents can teach their children without any collective school.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
That is a pretty eccentric view. Most parents agree that their children need education and the Government has realized that an educated population is integral to the prosperity of a country. As education is seen as a public priority and schooling millions of kids is too big for parents, religions, or even large corporations to manage, the responsibility has fallen to government as the largest national economic player. Under consultation with academics, the set a pretty reasonable curriculum.
formless777 3 years ago
This only seems eccentric because we've been conditioned to think that our kids belong to the gov't and they must be "conditioned" for the collective good. That is a collective philosophy which is opposed to individual liberty and is the primary source of tyrany. Very dangerous. And again, I'm not so much concerned about curriculum, as I am with "brain washing" into slavery by the collectivism of the state.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
And, "schooling millions of kids", is not the responsibility of mom and dad; just their own kids. So the problem is not so big that "the government has to do it". Only if you buy-in to the collectivist philosophy, would you think that all kids need to think exactly the same, like cloned slaves.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
And too, the "corporate state", is in need of the clones to suit their own purposes. They don't want people to think for themselves creatively and build competitive enterprise. The actually do need slaves only; even "well-educated" slaves.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
COLLECTIVISM: Holds that man is not an end to himself, but is only a tool to serve the ends of others. Collectivism, unlike individualism, holds the group as the primary, and the standard of moral value. -- the point is that man in principle is a sacrificial victim, whose only value is his ability to sacrifice his happiness for the will of the "group".
sermonwriter 3 years ago
INDIVIDUALISM: (Liberty) Holds that each and every man, may live his own life for his own happiness, as an end to himself. Politically, the result of such as principle is the individual does not live by permission of others, but by inalienable right.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
Individualism is not the same as liberty. Having to rely only on yourself and your own resources is not a desirable state of affairs. It is a tyranny of isolation and alienation, and effectively dis-empowerment at its extreme. Divide and conquer is a very old tactic, and you seem to be advocating division so your people will be open to conquest. Lol, do you think your man-god Jesus advocated individualism ? Nope, he loathed merchants and free enterprise and went everywhere with 12 men.
formless777 3 years ago
People "united" in liberty, are the closest and most tolerant people you'll ever meet. They will fight and die to protect the liberty of their fellow man no matter how different they are. Collectivists, however, only fight because they are "told" to. They have no heart because they are conditioned clones and are forced to obey man without any real thought or principal.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
And you can substitute the word "fight" with "work" here as well. People who understand personal liberty have a much greater respect for each other in every way. Of course, I am speaking idealistically.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
Actually I see a big problem here. The self-discipline involved in separating liberty from license. If a person isn't particularly answerable for their actions, why would they need to show any respect for anyone ? The social isolation implicit in individualism actually encourages people to hate and fear their fellows, and the disparity in wealth that occurs because individuals have no need or desire to share encourages crime, to reinforce that fear and isolation.
formless777 3 years ago
But that liberty is ultimately a bit of an illusion really isn't it ? After all, liberty is as likely to drive people apart as together and really regardless of their political ideology no-one ever escapes their culture, which is the really deep seated conditioning. You are also dehumanizing the people who think differently to you. The fact is that nobody is "told" to participate in a popular uprising, and collectivists have been involved in heaps of those.
formless777 3 years ago
Personal liberty only works in the framework of law. This is what prevents anarchy. However, that law must be such that protects the indivudual OVER the collective. This encourages individuality, as well as civilty. I believe the "dehumanizing" is done by the collectivist philosophy (by its very definition). I am just making a judgment on the end result of such a philosophy.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
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Law is the work of government as the representative of the people and the broader culture. You are hiding behind the collective to defend your rights as an individual. How dare you ? ROFL. You hate mommy but go running home to her for protection, lol. Similarly, you say that collectivists are all programmed and brainwashed clones. That is dehumanization and probably racism, as most collectivist cultures aren't white bread.
formless777 3 years ago
Well, the fact is that collective enterprises are appropriate for some things. Try running a gas plant or a hydro-electric power station on your own. If you live amongst people, co-operating with them is a great way of getting things done. Individualism seems to forget this.
formless777 3 years ago
A business that hires employees or subcontractors to run things is not a literal collective in a free society. It is individuals who enter contract to serve their own personal interests.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
I honestly can't see much difference between a collective and a company except in terms of how profits are distributed.
formless777 3 years ago
I have never met anybody who attends any educational institution who think exactly alike. What you are saying is an empty rhetorical device. Nobody is cloned, and frankly, what makes you think that a free-market corporate equivalent wouldn't turn out "slaves" as you put it ? Just a different "whip hand" if you ask me...
formless777 3 years ago
They may have different opinions within the system, but they are constantly being conformed to the collective through peer-pressure. The longer this goes on, the less and less "original" thought is tolerated.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
If you are talking about a "free-market corporate equivalent" educational system, you are right. There's no difference.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
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So do you think that large corporations are too collectivist ? They are after all, a logical outgrowth of enlightened self interest...
formless777 3 years ago
Ah, now that is something I agree with. If collective societies have a weakness it seems to be in an unwillingness to question authority, and that does handicap original thought and technological development. In fact, this is part of why I dislike religion. Religion encourages a lot of this style of unquestioning conformity and that is one part of why I despise it. Frankly, the Essenes, who are supposed to be Jesus' sect were deeply collectivist.
formless777 3 years ago
Then I would ask you, why do you condone collectivism with such a counter-productive weakness? As to your religious point, I can't speak for all religions, but Christianity promotes personal liberty, (among men), and being "not conformed". As I've stated previously here, Christianity recognizes all men as free agents with liberty of conscience. Those who would shackle that liberty, in any way, (collectivism), are labled as tyrants.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
By the way, those tyrants would include historical "theocracies", and the so-called "church", in various parts of history, as well as today. Usurpers of "God's authority", exist within and without religious circles. What I mean is, only "God" has authority over men's conscience; not other men. (The Christian view). Only "the law", has this authority, (the secular view). But still, NOT other men.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
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Once again, what better justification for a Tyrant on Earth than a Tyrant in Heaven ? Your god may not have a graven image, but that doesn't mean that worshiping a false idea of god isn't idolatry. The thing you worship is evil. You fear to bow to the state, and yet bow to a delusionary authority that drives men to mad and foul acts, and is undisputably the propaganda work of savages from antiquity. Pardon me...ROFL.
formless777 3 years ago
I'm not trying to change the subject, but we are just going in circles here, and you seem to have a chip on your shoulder. Keep your chip if you want, and no one can take it off but you, if you'd rather do that. You seem very bitter. I'm going to narrow this discussion down to here. I won't change your mind, (whatever it is), and you won't change mine. Feel free to post a new thought, but really, none of your last posts made any real sense to me. Try again?
sermonwriter 3 years ago
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It's pretty simple. Calling people names and assuming that they are less than human because they follow a more collectivist philosophy, whether through choice or culture, actually dehumanizes YOU. Furthermore, your argument in favor of individualism, is at odds with the ruthlessly conformist and collectivist religion to which you belong. Similarly you reject science which is highly meritocratic and individualist for spurious religious reasons. Simple really.
formless777 3 years ago
Hey formless777, one of the reasons I am frustrated with you is because you can't see that my personal philosophy does not dehumanize anyone. I've repeatedly told you that my beliefs elevate EVERYONE to the "image of God". However, it seems, because of your anti-religious attitude, you can't accept that. You don't have to believe what I believe, but you should be thrilled that my beliefs do more than "humanize" you; they elevate you to "the image of God". Can you deal with that?
sermonwriter 3 years ago
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I think in the main collectivism is preferable, however I don't think it should be taken to a logical extreme. I do think that certain brakes need to be put on the power of the collective so its ability to destroy people's lives is limited. I also believe in a mixed economy, not a free market nightmare.
As to christianity and tyranny... The Kingdom of God is not a democracy, you have no rights there, and most christians regard free will as the source of all evil.
formless777 3 years ago
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Yet all collectivist societies also have dissenting voices. They aren't always treated fairly, but can you name a society where dissenting voices are always treated fairly ? I can't. Every society has "blotted its copybook" on that one.
formless777 3 years ago
That is just paranoia. Parents know full well that the govt doesn't own their kids. Furthermore, individual liberty is not some wonder-cure for the world's ills. In fact individual liberty is often dangerously criminal in its outcomes. Consider the paragon of individual liberty, the Wild West Era. It was a time of atrocities, but hindsight and distance make it seem fun. In fact, most people were very grateful when Govt and stability arrived.
formless777 3 years ago
Then why do parents "act" like the gov't owns their kids? They are "conditioned". Every societal system has corruption, as all men can be corrupted, but personal liberty lends to checks and balances on corruption as power is not centralized; this is not the same as anarchy as you seem to imply. Collectivism, on the other hand, has produced the greatest corruption the world has ever seen.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
Actually if you look at the highly collectivist Scandinavian countries, all of them have less corruption than the USA. Singapore also has less corruption and it is highly collectivist. Individualism taken to its logical conclusion is anarchy as it represents a disregard for anything which ultimately is not to one's perceived benefit.
If that isn't a license to riot, what is ?
formless777 3 years ago
Like I mentioned before, liberty must be tempered by law, and only law that protects the indivudual OVER the collective. The corruption in the USA from my observation, is a direct result of ignoring these laws; (Constitution, Bill of Rights, Declaration, etc...)
sermonwriter 3 years ago
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So now you're hiding behind the government ? Where is Law if not residing with the government and its agencies, such as the judiciary ? Ultimately without the support of the collective, individualism is a death sentence for most humans. And I disagree with your analysis of the situation. How can any dare call it corruption if it suits the individuals who benefit ? Also it goes against the interests of the collective so you should support corruption as an individualist.
formless777 3 years ago
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The same could be asked of religion. Why do worshipers think of themselves as the progeny of a sky monster father figure ? Isn't that conditioning ? Now take science for example, there a complete meritocracy reigns and you can win lasting acclaim for dragging down moribund theories at the expense of collective opinion. Take Darwin facing off against the religious establishment of the day. An individual using the merit of his argument to defeat the ignorant collective.
formless777 3 years ago
Okay, so you want them to choose once they have all the facts. Don't you want an education system that will provide them with facts that the finest minds in history and the best research in the world have concluded are the most broadly inclusive and accurate theories of how things work ? That is what science provides, and what religion ignores in favor of hanging on to the scribbles of bronze age hebrew savages. Read the Book of Judges to your children and make sure to explain it well...
formless777 3 years ago
I'll say it again. I don't want a "state" educational system at all. If there is no state-run schools, then the state won't have a chance to abuse an individual's conscience, and religion won't have a chance to influence the state to abuse an individual's conscience. This solves both of our concerns. So again, religion is irrelevant here. It is the protection of the right of the individual to have freedom of conscience which should be highlighted.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
Look, if you are so very scared that your children will lose faith just because they go to a state run school, obviously you know how silly religion looks in the face of common sense and reason. Worse still, religion demands that you stay willfully ignorant and have "faith" that it is true when it clearly isn't. The reason you want to deny your children the information that will set them free is that you fear that freedom yourself, and your conscience knows it.
formless777 3 years ago
On the contrary. Our children know they do well to learn ALL alternative thought to better understand their chosen positions. We don't encourage blind faith, but rather, a position of wisdom, which can only come with knowledge and experience. This gives them confidence in the face of all arguments; and of course, a chance to modify their own positions should they see the wisdom in that.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
Furthermore, it has become obvious that state-run schools have discouraged critical thinking, and in fact, have been training the mind NOT to think critically. So, it is not the information I am afraid of, but what scares me is the process of dumbing down the thinking process.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
By the way, if you don't believe this fact that the state-run schools are destroying the thinking process, then you should check out the info from John Taylor Gatto, johntaylorgatto(dot)com.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
While I agree that standards of education seem to be falling, this has much more to do with the collapse of the work conditions and pay rates of teachers than on the curriculum. Teaching has been a decaying career prospect for decades due to administrative neglect. Pay peanuts get monkeys. In any case, the decline has not been across the board. Some schools have recovered considerably, some never really declined, but there are some real basket case schools.
formless777 3 years ago
Though what you say here is true, it is insignificant compared to the enourmity and complexity of the problem. If you checked out the material by John Taylor Gatto, I think you'd see what I'm talking about. And, those "recoverd" schools you speak of, are simply basket case schools with a bandaid, and are still brain-washing centers.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
For the religious, they can start their own schools. For any other "non-religious" organizations, they can do the same, (both for their own children). Even though I don't want state-run schools, I do believe there should be an option to pay the state a "voluntary" tax to send their kids to a state-run school, only if they want to. And of course, parents can teach their children without any collective school.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
Primarily I am using it as a figure of speech, like "you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink" or "time you were dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century". I don't endorse using force to change people's opinions, even though religion has a history of doing exactly that.
formless777 3 years ago
I can tell that you hate tyrants, as do I. I would love for you to be inspired by Jesus Christ, but if not, don't let that be an excuse to alienate yourself from those who would fight these tyrants with you, and for you. "Real" Christians love liberty, and not just their own liberty, and not just other Christian's liberty.
sermonwriter 3 years ago
My God judges you and me as "after His own image". We are the same. (This is my belief. You should welcome my opinion of you as it is FOR you, not against you, whether you believe it or not.)
sermonwriter 3 years ago
Sound dangerously close to hubris.
formless777 3 years ago
Babylonian churches teaching another doctrine and their people that refuse to seek and find if what they preach are in line with the whole of scripture or not. A major clue that you may be in a corrupt church is if they are a 501 (C) 3 tax exempt IRS approved Church. If they are, they already sold out Christ for Money and Growth, etceteras.
MannaBoBannaPeople 3 years ago 3
Thank you so much for posting this! This is a perfect example of why it's time for Christians not only to come out of government schools, but government churches. In China, the house churches are having a Mighty move of God. The house churches in America are next!
childbearing 4 years ago 3
I believe it as well! Your comment brought me joy! The VISIBLE church above ground will be the Babylon church. But the underground church will be the Body of Christ...Christ's bride. tribulation & persecution will bring this about.
FaithandReasons 3 years ago
Are you a masochist or something ?
formless777 3 years ago