ln the Roman Rite, Michaelmas is September 29, so I wonder if this October 3 celebration was on a Sunday, or is it the date used in the Swedish Church? Thank you for posting, by the way.
@FRAGIORGIO1 Yes, according to my Catholic calender it is on the 29th of September, a Thursday the year 2011. But in the Church of Sweden it is celebrated on the Sunday. It is the same also for the celebration of Feast of the Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin and maybe a few other.
@karpov89 Thank you for your kind response. The Annunciation is much more appropriately celebrated on a Sunday since it is the Feast of the Incarnation, thanks to the power of the Holy Spirit. I hope to see the "Annunciation" celebrated before Christmas along with the Visitation, and the Holy Name of Jesus on January 1st with the following Sundays commemorating the Purification, the Adoration of the Magi, the Finding in the Temple, and the Baptism of Jesus. God bless you.
The Novus Ordo (New Mass) liturgy of the Catholic Church is similar with the Lutheran liturgy. The Catholic Church must use "missa ad orientem" to restore Catholicism and to be distinct from Protestant churches.
@nelsonvandyk Well what you say is not the position of the Catholic church. About versus populum and ad orientem the Lutheran mass were always celebrated ad orientem before and nowadays sometimes, it is usually depends on how the church is built.
Quite appart from the liturgical renewal of modern times, the Lutheran Churches have always been liturgical, almost without exception. While the academic gown is common in Italy and in some places, alb, cincture, stole, and maniple have never been uncommon, nor have cassock and stole/tippet and hood. Singing of the liturgy traces itself back to J.S. Bach and beyond. Lutherans may just be The most liturgical church in the west today--at any rate it is not new at all.
It's great that you have Latin Mass in Sweden. The Latin Mass is very popular in the regions around New York City and Boston. This is a very Roman Catholic part of the USA that never really gave up the old liturgy. When the new Mass was "introduced" (forced) in the 60's, the Latin Mass went "underground". Now that it's permitted again many priests have started saying it openly and with great reverence. Unlike the modern Mass, the Latin Masses are packed with young people.
karpov, Nattvardsgästerna is a fascinating film on many levels. It's a masterpiece of characterization. Well worth watching. It's one of my top three favorite films.
The Mass plays an important part in the film. Bergman never reveals whether or not the priest has lost his faith or whether he loves his mistress.
The Masses are set in a rural parish. Bergman's father was a priest, so I suspect the Mass is accurate. Maybe the liturgical renewal didn't reach there in 1963.
@epituchano Well I have seen many of Bergman's, including Den goda viljan, about his father, the priest. I am not sure about the liturgy, they do not show the complete eucharistic prayer? But I think I have to see it myself..well about the Latin mass it is popular among converts, Swedish people (most of the Catholics are foreign of origin).
@epituchano I have seen the film now, I think it is a much better psychological drama then presentation of the liturgy. However then the priest were using the Missale of 1942 and now they use the Missale of 1986, which is indeed close to the Catholic Novus Ordo mass.
@karpov89 Yes, it is a very dark film at times, but it shows Bergman's great direction.
Ugh, I'm not a fan of the Novus Ordo. It would've been better if we Roman Catholics never gave up our Tridentine liturgy. It's okay for the western Christian churches to be different. Now the western Christian liturgies are indistinguishable :-(
Also, a lot of RC priests make up prayers while saying the Novus Ordo rather than read from the Missal. I hope that Swedish priests aren't doing so! :-(
@FRAGIORGIO1 I'm quite aware that the typical text of the 1970/2002 Missal is in Latin. Few priests celebrate the new Roman Mass in Latin anymore. Also, I must beg to differ with you on the supposed "patristic" origins of the Novus Ordo. This is not the place to debate these points. Be glad our Lutheran brothers and sisters preserved much of what we Romans lost in our postconciliar liturgical psychosis.
@epituchano We may have lost some things, but we have gained others from the long traditions and practices of the Church, which did not Begin in 1570, that is, 1,540 years after Jesus. It is not only patristic oriigins, what of the Jewish origins, and early and later Middle Ages? Also, there are some other Latin rites and uses, such as the Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Dominicans, as well as other historic, no longer used practices such as the Sarum use of the Roman Rite in England..
@epituchano Maybe it is very rare to celebrate the whole liturgy in Latin, but at least in Sweden it is not uncommon to have the Kyrie, Gloria et laudamus, (Credo), Sanctus and Agnus Dei in Latin, also to sing hymns in Latin.
@karpov89 Yes, this is true here in my part of the US as well. My pastor sings much of the Mass in Latin, even on weekdays. I can't sing, so I speak my part :-(
@epituchano A few years ago I was attending a Catholic baptismal mass outside Borås in Sweden and the preacher of the Papal Houshold P Rainero Cantalamessa OFMCap was attending..then also the whole Liturgy of the Eucharist was in Latin.
@karpov89 I heard Msgr. Cantalamessa celebrate Tridentine Solemn Mass in New York City. A good celebrant.
If I were a priest I would say the Canon in Latin, as the English translations obscure the meaning. Luther and Petri did not mind Latin at all. They did not like the Canon or the Requiem Mass, however. In a way Luther "conquered" the Romans 500 years later, since many Roman priests today do not know how to say the Canon in Latin or sing the Requiem chants. :-(((
I've seen many of your videos. It's striking how similar the new modern Swedish Mass resembles the new Roman Mass. The Liturgical Movement has spread far and wide.
However, the Mass in Ingmar Bergman's _Nattvardsgästerna_ is quite different. The priest wears a black gown instead of a chasuble and follows the 16th century order of the Mass. Are there churches in Sweden that still use this liturgy? A small but visible number of Roman Catholics still hear Latin Mass.
@epituchano Hi! Unfortunately I have not seen the whole film, Nattvardsgästerna. But in the early 1960ths it was the Book of common worship of 1942 (we now have 1986). I am not sure if the film shows authentic liturgy, or if it is simplified (problably). The chasuble, cope and other liturgical vestments were never abolished. However, in the dark ages of Liturgy, 19th century, the chasuble were mostly used at solemn occassions, which gradually changed during the 20th century.
@epituchano I think the chasuble, alb and stole were common 50 years ago, but maybe less in rural churches with old, non high church, priests.
I think maybe a couple of tiny congregations of orthodox Lutherans outside the Church of Sweden may use the order of 1942 or similar.
There are good opportunities to celebrate the Latin mass on regular basis in Sweden in some places, most frequent in Göteborg. The Catholic bishop of Sweden is positive to the Latin mass.
ln the Roman Rite, Michaelmas is September 29, so I wonder if this October 3 celebration was on a Sunday, or is it the date used in the Swedish Church? Thank you for posting, by the way.
FRAGIORGIO1 1 month ago
@FRAGIORGIO1 Yes, according to my Catholic calender it is on the 29th of September, a Thursday the year 2011. But in the Church of Sweden it is celebrated on the Sunday. It is the same also for the celebration of Feast of the Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin and maybe a few other.
karpov89 1 month ago
@karpov89 Thank you for your kind response. The Annunciation is much more appropriately celebrated on a Sunday since it is the Feast of the Incarnation, thanks to the power of the Holy Spirit. I hope to see the "Annunciation" celebrated before Christmas along with the Visitation, and the Holy Name of Jesus on January 1st with the following Sundays commemorating the Purification, the Adoration of the Magi, the Finding in the Temple, and the Baptism of Jesus. God bless you.
FRAGIORGIO1 1 month ago
The Novus Ordo (New Mass) liturgy of the Catholic Church is similar with the Lutheran liturgy. The Catholic Church must use "missa ad orientem" to restore Catholicism and to be distinct from Protestant churches.
nelsonvandyk 6 months ago
@nelsonvandyk Well what you say is not the position of the Catholic church. About versus populum and ad orientem the Lutheran mass were always celebrated ad orientem before and nowadays sometimes, it is usually depends on how the church is built.
karpov89 6 months ago
@nelsonvandyk I could not agree more.
kpman 3 months ago
Quite appart from the liturgical renewal of modern times, the Lutheran Churches have always been liturgical, almost without exception. While the academic gown is common in Italy and in some places, alb, cincture, stole, and maniple have never been uncommon, nor have cassock and stole/tippet and hood. Singing of the liturgy traces itself back to J.S. Bach and beyond. Lutherans may just be The most liturgical church in the west today--at any rate it is not new at all.
EstateManor 6 months ago
It's great that you have Latin Mass in Sweden. The Latin Mass is very popular in the regions around New York City and Boston. This is a very Roman Catholic part of the USA that never really gave up the old liturgy. When the new Mass was "introduced" (forced) in the 60's, the Latin Mass went "underground". Now that it's permitted again many priests have started saying it openly and with great reverence. Unlike the modern Mass, the Latin Masses are packed with young people.
epituchano 1 year ago
@epituchano The official liturgical language of Novus Ordo is LATIN. Be better informed!
FRAGIORGIO1 1 month ago
karpov, Nattvardsgästerna is a fascinating film on many levels. It's a masterpiece of characterization. Well worth watching. It's one of my top three favorite films.
The Mass plays an important part in the film. Bergman never reveals whether or not the priest has lost his faith or whether he loves his mistress.
The Masses are set in a rural parish. Bergman's father was a priest, so I suspect the Mass is accurate. Maybe the liturgical renewal didn't reach there in 1963.
epituchano 1 year ago
@epituchano Well I have seen many of Bergman's, including Den goda viljan, about his father, the priest. I am not sure about the liturgy, they do not show the complete eucharistic prayer? But I think I have to see it myself..well about the Latin mass it is popular among converts, Swedish people (most of the Catholics are foreign of origin).
karpov89 1 year ago
@epituchano I have seen the film now, I think it is a much better psychological drama then presentation of the liturgy. However then the priest were using the Missale of 1942 and now they use the Missale of 1986, which is indeed close to the Catholic Novus Ordo mass.
karpov89 3 months ago
@karpov89 Yes, it is a very dark film at times, but it shows Bergman's great direction.
Ugh, I'm not a fan of the Novus Ordo. It would've been better if we Roman Catholics never gave up our Tridentine liturgy. It's okay for the western Christian churches to be different. Now the western Christian liturgies are indistinguishable :-(
Also, a lot of RC priests make up prayers while saying the Novus Ordo rather than read from the Missal. I hope that Swedish priests aren't doing so! :-(
epituchano 3 months ago
@epituchano The Novus Ordo incorporated some features of more ancient Roman liturgies. You should study liturgical history and be better informed.
FRAGIORGIO1 1 month ago
@FRAGIORGIO1 I'm quite aware that the typical text of the 1970/2002 Missal is in Latin. Few priests celebrate the new Roman Mass in Latin anymore. Also, I must beg to differ with you on the supposed "patristic" origins of the Novus Ordo. This is not the place to debate these points. Be glad our Lutheran brothers and sisters preserved much of what we Romans lost in our postconciliar liturgical psychosis.
epituchano 1 month ago
@epituchano We may have lost some things, but we have gained others from the long traditions and practices of the Church, which did not Begin in 1570, that is, 1,540 years after Jesus. It is not only patristic oriigins, what of the Jewish origins, and early and later Middle Ages? Also, there are some other Latin rites and uses, such as the Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Dominicans, as well as other historic, no longer used practices such as the Sarum use of the Roman Rite in England..
FRAGIORGIO1 1 month ago
@epituchano Maybe it is very rare to celebrate the whole liturgy in Latin, but at least in Sweden it is not uncommon to have the Kyrie, Gloria et laudamus, (Credo), Sanctus and Agnus Dei in Latin, also to sing hymns in Latin.
karpov89 1 month ago
@karpov89 Yes, this is true here in my part of the US as well. My pastor sings much of the Mass in Latin, even on weekdays. I can't sing, so I speak my part :-(
epituchano 1 month ago
@epituchano A few years ago I was attending a Catholic baptismal mass outside Borås in Sweden and the preacher of the Papal Houshold P Rainero Cantalamessa OFMCap was attending..then also the whole Liturgy of the Eucharist was in Latin.
karpov89 1 month ago
@karpov89 I heard Msgr. Cantalamessa celebrate Tridentine Solemn Mass in New York City. A good celebrant.
If I were a priest I would say the Canon in Latin, as the English translations obscure the meaning. Luther and Petri did not mind Latin at all. They did not like the Canon or the Requiem Mass, however. In a way Luther "conquered" the Romans 500 years later, since many Roman priests today do not know how to say the Canon in Latin or sing the Requiem chants. :-(((
epituchano 1 month ago
Hi Karpov,
I've seen many of your videos. It's striking how similar the new modern Swedish Mass resembles the new Roman Mass. The Liturgical Movement has spread far and wide.
However, the Mass in Ingmar Bergman's _Nattvardsgästerna_ is quite different. The priest wears a black gown instead of a chasuble and follows the 16th century order of the Mass. Are there churches in Sweden that still use this liturgy? A small but visible number of Roman Catholics still hear Latin Mass.
epituchano 1 year ago
@epituchano Hi! Unfortunately I have not seen the whole film, Nattvardsgästerna. But in the early 1960ths it was the Book of common worship of 1942 (we now have 1986). I am not sure if the film shows authentic liturgy, or if it is simplified (problably). The chasuble, cope and other liturgical vestments were never abolished. However, in the dark ages of Liturgy, 19th century, the chasuble were mostly used at solemn occassions, which gradually changed during the 20th century.
karpov89 1 year ago
@epituchano I think the chasuble, alb and stole were common 50 years ago, but maybe less in rural churches with old, non high church, priests.
I think maybe a couple of tiny congregations of orthodox Lutherans outside the Church of Sweden may use the order of 1942 or similar.
There are good opportunities to celebrate the Latin mass on regular basis in Sweden in some places, most frequent in Göteborg. The Catholic bishop of Sweden is positive to the Latin mass.
karpov89 1 year ago
@epituchano The Roman Rite mass is officially in Latin as per 1970. Bishops' conferences are authorized to have mass in the language of the people
FRAGIORGIO1 1 month ago