Communism and Religion

[InFromTheVoid]

Marx did criticize religion. Yet that is irrelavant. The early Christians practiced communism WAY before Marx showed up. They are not mutually exclusive. I think that to think that all communists are against religion is a knee jerk reaction. I would say that NK is jsut as religious as any religion I have ever seen. They worship their leader just like the theists worship god.

[InFromTheVoid]

I agree...there are different types of communism. And what I mean by that is.....they may not always share all the same premises, but they do share the same conclusion. Christians can communist too, just like Atheists can be for capitalism (objectivists, and for the most part libertarians). In fact I think religion is more compatible with communism (because of it's collectivist tone) than atheism.

[Odanrot]

Communism really never existed in it's true form instead you get tyranny and dictatorships.

[missbaclash]

but isnt communism about freedom & democracy?

[missbaclash]

so if i wanted to estabilshed a communist system or society, i would have to get rid of religion???

[squitmaa]

According to the Communist manifesto and Karl Marx, Yes.

[boomac62]

nope...not correct. Gotta read the context into that.

[boomac62]

Not so simple. Marx had his views on religion BUT they are not the views held by many thousands of socialists. Marx's views on economics and the state are one thing, his writings on religion are NOT as important. I am an evangelical Christian and a Communist. Perhpas not the most common thing but I am not alone. Peace! Gotta think outside the box to grow. marx was,after all, a 19th century thinker.

[squitmaa]

You can certainly modify an idea such as communism. However these modifications become something different. For yourself the term christian has been added to communist to qualify what it is that you believe. In all honesty however i bet there is alot more than just Marx's stance on religion that you disagree with. As for socialism it does not equal communism. They hope for a similar result, but they attempt to get there through very different means.

[GeniusIdiot]

Communism is a religion because they worship their leader. They called their leader god.

[squitmaa]

I guess that might be the case in North Korea, I think however that is more of an exception than a rule. Certainly most countries revier there leaders. We have massive statues of Abraham Lincoln. Does that mean we consider him a God?

[GeniusIdiot]

No because we never said he was a god. There is nothing wrong with building a statue. Also no one worships it. Chinese room mates have said "Maotzetung is god". (not sure if that is the correct spelling).

[cliffracerslayer]

However that the ruling class use religion is true. However, the ruling class use almost anything that they can. Accepting that 'present' religion serves Capitalism does not necceserily require you to reject religious ideas absolutely. I am a Christian Communist.

[squitmaa]

What is the difference between a christian communist and a christian socialist?

[cliffracerslayer]

What's the difference between a Communist and a Socialist?

[squitmaa]

Both groups look for social equality. The difference is that Socialists work within existing systems to reform and create equality. Communists go a step further. They seek to reject and dismantle all social structures, including religion to create a unbiased society with a even distribution of wealth. By mandating a specific faith you are instantly creating a society that will be biased to those with a different religious view.

[cliffracerslayer]

Except the Communists themselves would have to be a Social Structure in order to do so. The difference between Socialists and Communists is that one advocates the radical transformation of society through revolution while the other seeks a more gradual transformation. However in practice the lines are pretty blurred, all Socialists end up becoming essentially Communists or essentially Capitalists. Considering ideas to be structures, leads to ludicrous conclusions.

[squitmaa]

Except what? It is ironic that a "we are all equal" philosophy attemts to dominate all other philosophies. Communism is a non cast systemem social structure. As for the notion of does this mix with christianity, I would say "Give to ceasar what is ceasar and to God what is Gods." How could a religion who's motto is turn the other check ever advocate a radical social transformation.

[cliffracerslayer]

What is Ceaser's and what is God's? This is an open question.

Turn the other cheek clearly doesn't mean Pacifism, for Jesus's followers were armed and Jesus engaged in political violence once.

If Christianity is necceserily against radical social transformation, then how come the early Christians tried to do so as in Acts 4. They practiced Communism. There is also the significance of the Cross, which was how the Romans killed rebels.

[squitmaa]

Living communally in a small group vs being a communist are two totally different things. People live communally on a kibutz and often this groups consider themselves capitalists. As for the apostles weapons certainly fisherman carry a large knife. Look up the word sword in a concordance.

[cliffracerslayer]

Basically your argument is that there is a fundermental difference between someone who tries to practice a small-scale communism and those who try to remake society in that image through politics. However the early Christians were definately not "small scale" they were international in scope.

[squitmaa]

Clearly Communism is a social political stance equivalent to capitalism. One can live oommunally without having a communist Political stance. Living communally and being a communist are two different things.

There were many early christians, but the countries who adopted this christianity never abandoned there Monarch Governments or free market systems. Early Christianity had little effect on politics infact it was more common for politics to effect christians.

[cliffracerslayer]

That was of course the flaw in the Early Christian's position.

[squitmaa]

How do you supose radical transformation of society without militant action? When has this ever happened with a communist society?

[MarcinP2]

Communism gets established by force and then overthrown by society itself with nonvoient methods once they realise a trick was played on them by who now are a new priviledged class of exploiters.

[rrush2214]

and cristian communism dosent follow the marxist belief, they try to stay away from that.

[rrush2214]

read acts chapter 2 verses 40ish through 50ish, i cant remember exactly, but it discrbes communism. thats the base for christian communism.

[HOWARDCOSELLISTHEMAN]

There is also a philosophy called Christian Communism, it has a Wikipedia page about it. I don't support communism, but the idea is out there.

[squitmaa]

Ideas do evolve. The term Christian communist would certainly give Marx a heart attack, but I am sure that an open minded christian could find some benifit in his opinions.

[preacherman777]

A good examination of the subject. I would have to agree with it.

[ThatChristian]

You look quite frightened in this thumbnail.

[squitmaa]

lol. youtube usually does a horrible job picking a thumbnail.

[YMCAPU]

Good video -- your point is well made.

My point in the context of your last video was not that communism is a religion but that, due to its structural differences with our society, it's not a valid comparison. You can't complain that gays are being discriminated in a society where everyone is being discriminated societally.

[squitmaa]

The comparison was only valid because it exposed the societial problem apart from relgion. Certainly Swedens Political model works better than Cuba's. I'm not selling Communism.

[InfoJunkieHolland]

Why the hardliners do not want religion, you ask?

Religion is too prone to sectarian divides and internal power struggles. Communism seeks only to dominate. If the domination would have been easier to reach via the religious route, they would've taken it.

[squitmaa]

actually Marx's stance was that the working class should remove religion so that the upper class can no longer use it to control the masses.

[InfoJunkieHolland]

Yes, but do you know what the hidden agenda was? communism is so perfectly suited to be totally perverted, it's not even funny anymore.

Communism was never supposed to be a good form of government. The only thing communism was supposed to achieve, was the consolidation of wealth in the interest of major banking cartels.

[squitmaa]

I don't think it was marx's agenda. Eventually the power hungry bastards exploit a loophole in almost any political philosophy. It happens in the Us, It happened in Rome, it has happened everywere eventually.

[InfoJunkieHolland]

So sad, but so true. I'm amazed to see my government hasn't become more strict over the years since 9/11.

[NemoUtopian]

well as i said before,when you make claims of infalibility and absolute authority i do not see how you can be considered anything other then a religion.

[squitmaa]

Marx did make absolute claims, but he never claimed infalibility. It sounds to me like you are defining all bad social philosophies as religion. To be religious I think you need to meet all of these criteria.

1. belief concerning cause, nature, and universal purpose.

2. Derives rituals and practices

3. Establishes a concept of spirituality

4. Requires a point of worship

5. establishes a morality

[squitmaa]

I would say the problem with communism is that it is a government model that attempts to inject itself into religion. The best way in my opinion is to create a rigid seperation between church and state as in many democratic models.

[NemoUtopian]

i to agree that the seperation between church and state has been the saving grace of democracy.but this is also a reflection of democracies respect for the difirentiation of the public and privet spheres.and that is something that the communist nations we have seen did not have at all.

[NemoUtopian]

i think a case could perhaps be made for most and maybe all of these,i doubt i am in any shape to do it at the moment though.i kind of hope someone better suited to it comes along before i wake up tomorrow as i am patheticlly under educated on communist nations

[inmendham]

there is a big difference between government suppressing religion, and government not subsidizing religion... I would opposed any government that prevented people from wasting their own time and money on their own philosophy... but I certainly would support social (government) investment in productive science. Bottom line I'll only support a constitutional democracy protecting free expression regardless of capitalist or socialist economic policy.

[squitmaa]

Great points as usual.