That's all fair and good. But, what about the impact when the batteries are bad and must be disposed of? Generally by the time the cost savings pays off over a gas or diesel car it's close to the time for the batteries to be changed. The batteries are very bad for the environment and therefore can't simply be dumped. I really like the idea of electric cars for normal daily use, but they aren't quite there.
@NBSV1 You make a good and valid point, but the story isn't all bad. For a start, once a set of batteries is no longer useful for an electric vehicle, they can have a second life: they can be used for energy stores for solar or wind generation, or for UPS's.
Secondly, the batteries can be recycled and reclamation rates are very high. When you take the battery manufacture and recycling into account, it is the equivalent of a further 3-6g/km of CO2 emissions, so there is still a saving.
At 2:38 you mention a 20-30% reduction in CO2 emissions when using coal to produce electricity. As it happens, I live in a place where almost all the electricity is from coal.
Given the issues re: mercury, sulphur, fly ash, acid-mine drainage, undermining, etc...would an electric car be a good environmental decision (on net) for me?
@bcubed72 Yes... but you are right, coal is a mucky old fuel to make electricity out of! The way to make the biggest difference is to charge up your car when nobody else is using electricity - such as in the middle of the night. Coal fired power stations generate energy at a more-or-less constant rate. In the dead of night, coal fired power stations are kicking out pollution and no-one is using the electricity. Plug your car in then and you're using energy that would otherwise be wasted.
Mike, just read the book. Very interesting indeed, rather short for my liking I snaffled it up in a day :).
Just a question as an engineering and technical layman, The tesla roadster has great acceleration and a top speed of around 130? And I believe the electric record is around 240mph. I have to admit that boasting that a car has a 160-180mph top speed is impressive, what is holding back the top speedof an electric supercar, is it the battery tech?
@eldictator1 Thanks for the comments about the book. The 2011 edition is bigger!
The issue with top speed is the amount of power that you end up using: yes, you could have a 180mph electric supercar, but your range would probably be around ten miles!
Mike can you answer me a question, All I ever seem to hear is that the national grid wouldn't cope with a large amount of E.V's. I remember hearing that we need to sort out our power generation, but would say 1-2 million e.v's tip us over the edge? I heard an analogy that owning a typical e.v was the equivalent to owning 3 plasma t.v's and an average use on all 3, which leads me to believe that it wouldn't be a massive problem
@eldictator1 The simple answer is that it depends on how people charge up their cars. The National Grid has times when there is a huge demand for electricity and they struggle to keep up with demand, but the vast majority of the time, supply can easily keep up with demand. That is especially true at night when all the power stations are underutilised. If we charge up our cars overnight (which makes sense), we will require no new infrastructure until over 15% of the cars on the road are electric.
Hi Mike. Firstly I'm off to order your book. Secondly I'm seriously considering buying an electrc bike a Zero DS to be exact (can't quite afford the leaf and imiev prices yet)
and thirdly I hope to use the acquired info to balance out the misinformation spread on many forums and videos. I truly believe electric cars are the best option speaking as a gadget fan and a member of the playstation generation
@eldictator1 Thanks for the comments and I hope you enjoy the book. I haven't driven the Zero, but I have driven a number of electric motorbikes and I have always enjoyed them: very smooth, very torquey and great fun to drive. Electric cars are the ultimate gadget and I think you're right, gadget fans and younger people will adopt electric cars in big numbers once the right cars are available.
Thanks for some great data. Especially checking the CO2 emissions if the electricity came from coal.
It would be good to extend the tests to include diesel vehicles, as these now represent a significant percentage of the UK vehicle fleet.
Some figures for the fuel consumption of modern common rail diesels around your test circuit would be interesting. Too often the mpg of these vehicles is overstated - Great to prove what mpg is actually returned on an urban run.
@kenboak You are absolutely right, it would be good to do the tests with diesel powered cars as well. I am planning to rerun these tests in the summer using a wider range of cars. I would expect both the electric cars and the combustion engine cars to perform better in the warmer conditions.
Yes. That is right. Remember that these tests were carried out in the middle of winter when electric car efficiency is much lower than it would be in the height of summer. This shows a 'worse case' scenario as I had to use heating and lights as well (on all cars). I plan to redo the tests this summer and see how the cars compare then.
@MikeBoxwell Thanks for the reply. My feeling is most would charge their cars at night as you say. I think 15 percent could be reached within 10-15 years...Would this be long enough for new infrastructure to be in place, I think so. Just in my home town alone we have plans in place for a new carbon capture coal fired plant and a wind farm, within the next 4 years. We should be aiming for more renewables, because our output is paltry compared to others. Why can't we
Great video Mike , I would say your figures are right on the money ! Of course when you factor in the costs of servicing the electric car as opposed to the ICE car , it starts swing even more dramatically in favour of the EV .
The answer is 'yes'. I've used the figures of 6g/km for lead acid batteries and 3g/km for lithium ion batteries, which cover both the production and the recycling of the batteries.
I've also taken into account the carbon cost for the production of the fuel used by the power stations (coal, oil, gas, etc.) and the average transmission losses for power from the power station to my home.
@MikeBoxwell What do you think about amortizing the cost of the battery pack over the life of the car. For example, the car life is 100,000 miles and the battery pack costs US$10,000. This would amount to $0.10/mile cost for the battery alone making the EV much less economical. However, of course, economy isn't everything.
This test was really aimed at pointing out the environmental efficiencies. The costs were added almost as an afterthought.
You make a fair point. The problem is there is such a wide disparity between battery prices and lifespans for different cars that coming up with a generic figure is not yet possible.
Battery prices fluctuate quite dramatically from month to month - its far worse than oil in that respect - but unlike oil the long term prospect for battery prices is to drop substantially.
@MikeBoxwell So by Environment Efficiencies you mean CO2gram/km? On that score, EV win big time and going to renewables makes it even better. But I remain skeptical about the cost part of this equation. Battery prices are likely to be a serious challenge for EVs for the foreseeable future. On the other hand, if the price of the EV falls within the range of prices of other vehicles, then perhaps the battery cost is less of an issue.
You are right to be skeptical at the moment. Cost-wise, electric cars are cheaper to run than gasoline cars in Europe because of the high tax charge on gasoline. In the US, gasoline cars are cheaper when the cost of batteries is taken into account. That won't be an issue for ever though. I'm just working on a film at the moment that shows that before the end of this decade, electric cars will end up cheaper to buy, run, charge and maintain than the average fuel bill for a gasoline car.
Mike, Thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply. For an EV advocate, you are very level-headed and I really like that. I must confess that I am a little jealous that you get to drive an iMiEV. That seems like a great car for my 20 mile daily commute.
congrats on the new book. i'm just curious where you got the 25-35% efficiency numbers for gas powered cars. i've most commonly read 15-20% tops. thanks for your work!
brandon
p.s. i've enjoyed my EV for 4500 miles now. a nice classic car with a second chance at life!.
Thanks for the comment. I've seen the figures you mention, but when I investigated it in more detail, the figure of 15-20% is more respective of the big lazy American V8s of the 1970s rather than the much more efficient and compact engines of today. Especially those found in European cars where fuel efficiency is very important.
That's all fair and good. But, what about the impact when the batteries are bad and must be disposed of? Generally by the time the cost savings pays off over a gas or diesel car it's close to the time for the batteries to be changed. The batteries are very bad for the environment and therefore can't simply be dumped. I really like the idea of electric cars for normal daily use, but they aren't quite there.
NBSV1 1 year ago
@NBSV1 You make a good and valid point, but the story isn't all bad. For a start, once a set of batteries is no longer useful for an electric vehicle, they can have a second life: they can be used for energy stores for solar or wind generation, or for UPS's.
Secondly, the batteries can be recycled and reclamation rates are very high. When you take the battery manufacture and recycling into account, it is the equivalent of a further 3-6g/km of CO2 emissions, so there is still a saving.
MikeBoxwell 1 year ago
Mike,
At 2:38 you mention a 20-30% reduction in CO2 emissions when using coal to produce electricity. As it happens, I live in a place where almost all the electricity is from coal.
Given the issues re: mercury, sulphur, fly ash, acid-mine drainage, undermining, etc...would an electric car be a good environmental decision (on net) for me?
bcubed72 1 year ago
@bcubed72 Yes... but you are right, coal is a mucky old fuel to make electricity out of! The way to make the biggest difference is to charge up your car when nobody else is using electricity - such as in the middle of the night. Coal fired power stations generate energy at a more-or-less constant rate. In the dead of night, coal fired power stations are kicking out pollution and no-one is using the electricity. Plug your car in then and you're using energy that would otherwise be wasted.
MikeBoxwell 1 year ago
Mike, just read the book. Very interesting indeed, rather short for my liking I snaffled it up in a day :).
Just a question as an engineering and technical layman, The tesla roadster has great acceleration and a top speed of around 130? And I believe the electric record is around 240mph. I have to admit that boasting that a car has a 160-180mph top speed is impressive, what is holding back the top speedof an electric supercar, is it the battery tech?
eldictator1 1 year ago
@eldictator1 Thanks for the comments about the book. The 2011 edition is bigger!
The issue with top speed is the amount of power that you end up using: yes, you could have a 180mph electric supercar, but your range would probably be around ten miles!
MikeBoxwell 1 year ago
Mike can you answer me a question, All I ever seem to hear is that the national grid wouldn't cope with a large amount of E.V's. I remember hearing that we need to sort out our power generation, but would say 1-2 million e.v's tip us over the edge? I heard an analogy that owning a typical e.v was the equivalent to owning 3 plasma t.v's and an average use on all 3, which leads me to believe that it wouldn't be a massive problem
eldictator1 1 year ago
@eldictator1 The simple answer is that it depends on how people charge up their cars. The National Grid has times when there is a huge demand for electricity and they struggle to keep up with demand, but the vast majority of the time, supply can easily keep up with demand. That is especially true at night when all the power stations are underutilised. If we charge up our cars overnight (which makes sense), we will require no new infrastructure until over 15% of the cars on the road are electric.
MikeBoxwell 1 year ago
cont- Why can't we follow a country like japans or germanys lead
eldictator1 1 year ago
Hi Mike. Firstly I'm off to order your book. Secondly I'm seriously considering buying an electrc bike a Zero DS to be exact (can't quite afford the leaf and imiev prices yet)
and thirdly I hope to use the acquired info to balance out the misinformation spread on many forums and videos. I truly believe electric cars are the best option speaking as a gadget fan and a member of the playstation generation
eldictator1 1 year ago
@eldictator1 Thanks for the comments and I hope you enjoy the book. I haven't driven the Zero, but I have driven a number of electric motorbikes and I have always enjoyed them: very smooth, very torquey and great fun to drive. Electric cars are the ultimate gadget and I think you're right, gadget fans and younger people will adopt electric cars in big numbers once the right cars are available.
MikeBoxwell 1 year ago
Mike,
Thanks for some great data. Especially checking the CO2 emissions if the electricity came from coal.
It would be good to extend the tests to include diesel vehicles, as these now represent a significant percentage of the UK vehicle fleet.
Some figures for the fuel consumption of modern common rail diesels around your test circuit would be interesting. Too often the mpg of these vehicles is overstated - Great to prove what mpg is actually returned on an urban run.
kenboak 1 year ago
@kenboak You are absolutely right, it would be good to do the tests with diesel powered cars as well. I am planning to rerun these tests in the summer using a wider range of cars. I would expect both the electric cars and the combustion engine cars to perform better in the warmer conditions.
MikeBoxwell 1 year ago
So using your figures
212 WH/mile Gwiz
226 WH/mile iMiEV
From EVAmerica/USDOE we have
127 WH/mile EV1 @ 45 MPH constant
168 WH/mile EV1 @ 60 MPH constant
So the numbers seem reasonable.
JohnCBriggs 2 years ago
Yes. That is right. Remember that these tests were carried out in the middle of winter when electric car efficiency is much lower than it would be in the height of summer. This shows a 'worse case' scenario as I had to use heating and lights as well (on all cars). I plan to redo the tests this summer and see how the cars compare then.
MikeBoxwell 2 years ago
@MikeBoxwell Thanks for the reply. My feeling is most would charge their cars at night as you say. I think 15 percent could be reached within 10-15 years...Would this be long enough for new infrastructure to be in place, I think so. Just in my home town alone we have plans in place for a new carbon capture coal fired plant and a wind farm, within the next 4 years. We should be aiming for more renewables, because our output is paltry compared to others. Why can't we
eldictator1 1 year ago
Great video Mike , I would say your figures are right on the money ! Of course when you factor in the costs of servicing the electric car as opposed to the ICE car , it starts swing even more dramatically in favour of the EV .
crowdedcranium 2 years ago
Hey Mike Paul here. Did you tak into account the manufacture and disposal of the batteries?
Joesly1 2 years ago
Hello Paul. Good question!
The answer is 'yes'. I've used the figures of 6g/km for lead acid batteries and 3g/km for lithium ion batteries, which cover both the production and the recycling of the batteries.
I've also taken into account the carbon cost for the production of the fuel used by the power stations (coal, oil, gas, etc.) and the average transmission losses for power from the power station to my home.
MikeBoxwell 2 years ago
@MikeBoxwell What do you think about amortizing the cost of the battery pack over the life of the car. For example, the car life is 100,000 miles and the battery pack costs US$10,000. This would amount to $0.10/mile cost for the battery alone making the EV much less economical. However, of course, economy isn't everything.
JohnCBriggs 2 years ago
This test was really aimed at pointing out the environmental efficiencies. The costs were added almost as an afterthought.
You make a fair point. The problem is there is such a wide disparity between battery prices and lifespans for different cars that coming up with a generic figure is not yet possible.
Battery prices fluctuate quite dramatically from month to month - its far worse than oil in that respect - but unlike oil the long term prospect for battery prices is to drop substantially.
MikeBoxwell 2 years ago
@MikeBoxwell So by Environment Efficiencies you mean CO2gram/km? On that score, EV win big time and going to renewables makes it even better. But I remain skeptical about the cost part of this equation. Battery prices are likely to be a serious challenge for EVs for the foreseeable future. On the other hand, if the price of the EV falls within the range of prices of other vehicles, then perhaps the battery cost is less of an issue.
JohnCBriggs 2 years ago
You are right to be skeptical at the moment. Cost-wise, electric cars are cheaper to run than gasoline cars in Europe because of the high tax charge on gasoline. In the US, gasoline cars are cheaper when the cost of batteries is taken into account. That won't be an issue for ever though. I'm just working on a film at the moment that shows that before the end of this decade, electric cars will end up cheaper to buy, run, charge and maintain than the average fuel bill for a gasoline car.
MikeBoxwell 2 years ago
Mike, Thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply. For an EV advocate, you are very level-headed and I really like that. I must confess that I am a little jealous that you get to drive an iMiEV. That seems like a great car for my 20 mile daily commute.
John C. Briggs
JohnCBriggs 2 years ago
hey mike
congrats on the new book. i'm just curious where you got the 25-35% efficiency numbers for gas powered cars. i've most commonly read 15-20% tops. thanks for your work!
brandon
p.s. i've enjoyed my EV for 4500 miles now. a nice classic car with a second chance at life!.
sockosockosocko 2 years ago
Thanks for the comment. I've seen the figures you mention, but when I investigated it in more detail, the figure of 15-20% is more respective of the big lazy American V8s of the 1970s rather than the much more efficient and compact engines of today. Especially those found in European cars where fuel efficiency is very important.
MikeBoxwell 2 years ago