RAV4-EV an instant Chevy VOLT: correcting phony engineers

[frickandfracksicem]

what if: 40 kilowatt generator, at 220 AC input to the ultra-caps, then into the 220 AC speed controller, bypass the batteries all together and charge them while driving, a diesel gen-set running on altered vegetable oil would use 1/4 of a gallon per hour with a range of 240 miles per gallon, Nickola Tesla proposed this a while back, too bad the tech wasn't available then;why have an energy "sink" you need the 100-300AMPS to accelerate from zero to 40..can we do this now?

signed Scott Watson.

[DanielJaegerFilms]

So why isn't this guy an engineer if he's so "smart"?

[Joshcom88]

I can adopt an EV into my regular lifestyle, commuting to work at T-Mobile on the other side of town from downtown in San Antonio Texas. I just never had a chance here in Texas. Its not fair. I plan on going to Houston to buy an Nissan Leaf, first chance I get... I don't care what everyone else says: I WANT AN ELECTRIC CAR. TODAY.

[sprink7787]

Honestly, I enjoyed your rant, and I consider you to be pretty informative. However, GM's strategy is to combat range anxiety in consumers. Actually, the battery is designed so that they keep in mind many of the issues you discussed; Namely optimal, charge discharge... i.e Keeping the cycling at the optimum levels. Never fully charged or discharged.

The Generator kicks in to extend ranges. and actually has an advantage over regular hybrids and pure electric cars.

Awesome video and enthusiasm

[liveoilfree]

So far, there's not been any "range anxiety" amongst those actually driving EVs; curiously, a random sample of people. Those who try an EV get enamored of them, their big problem is not range, it's oil-auto companies CRUSHING their EVs. Ironically, the liars say that no one wants an EV, but they really fear that EVERYONE wants an EV!

[irocx29]

GM WAS My Number #1. Now YOU ARE #1 TY. keep it Coming*

[rob16875]

I kind of figured that refinement of lithium wasnt any better, electricity is not the most practical way to power the cars of the future, for one the battery packs put into these cars are way to expensive second if the car is involved in a crash it is a real hazard. also the pollution caused by the mining of the battery material isnt good, i think hydrogen is the future power, the engine as we know it would not have to change all that much, honda has come out with one and so has chevy

[liveoilfree]

rob, battery packs are not dangerous in collision, and mining the metal is a false bugaboo. Most lead and nickel comes from recycling, whereas Hydrogen would have to be made using new electric.

[rob16875]

you must admit though that battery packs are much more expensive than even running a regular economy car nowadays, what do you mean by saying hydrogen would have to be made using new electricity? i dont understand this statement

[liveoilfree]

H2 does not occur in nature, it must be manufactured. Since each kg of H2 contains the energy equivalent of 35 kWh, you must use more than that to free the H2 from water. The cost thus depends on electric cost.

[liveoilfree]

If H2 is made from natural gas, first, you lose the natural gas! and second, you get far less energy back than you put into making hte H2.

[2003SCT]

I am glad that you said that battery packs are not dangerous in a collision because that it not what Toyota said before. I love the fact how they won't be held accountable for it.

[liveoilfree]

There's a thing called the 'killavolt" which was developed for the EV1...like an airbag igniter, it detects collisions via G-force and disengages the battery main voltage. So far, in all collisions, no EV has had a battery issue, no fires, no fire department cause for alarm.

[rob16875]

haha im gonna laugh when the volt comes out and you keep saying its a hoax, also the type of nickel batteries in priuses and your car have created a large mess where the mining for the battery material was received, this polluted alot where it was mined prolly created more pollution then an oil burning car think about it

[liveoilfree]

You've got a long, long wait. Nickel batteries are completely recyclable; Nickel metal is used in Stainless Steel on your Hummer. That canard is bullshyt.

[liveoilfree]

Your other mistake is not knowing much about how Lithium is refined; it's highly reactive, but has no recycle value, so once it's refined all the pollution is repeated for the next batch.

[beemer37615]

Babbling idiot.  I can think of a dozen reasons why I would need a genset in an EV. Not everyone lives in your world!

[imacrazydude9999999]

how much did you pay for that car btw?

[Bradlyb2007]

I herd the Volt turns on the generator at 30% charge in order to keep the batteries from going below 30%. It does not charge up the car. It just mantains them from going completely depleted. which is exactly what you say they should do

[reddog714]

GM should hire this guy ..... a lot smarter then there crew... they have right now....

[lpgas1]

NiMH batteries were the way of the past and the way of the future. dont quote me , but is it 2014 when chevron has to stop sitting on its patent rights for any NiMH over 6ah? i'll be taking the agm batteries out of my ev and putting Nimh in their place. lithium is just a buzz word, give'em a few years and lets see then! p.s. i love your videos mate. keep it up!

[liveoilfree]

LP, you're right, it's 2014 when Chevron's patents expire. But maybe Obama will force Chevron to disgorge its ill-gotten gains and stop squatting on NiMH.

[liveoilfree]

Before posting arrogance, try to do some research; don't show ignorance. NiMH and lead-acid are the only proven battery chemistry for Electric cars; the fact that GM is not using it for their supposed VOLT shows that it's a HOAX. Every successful EV started off with lead, then was upgraded to NiMH; if GM were serious, it would first acknowledge this!!

[fordcobraone]

Due to your lack of knowledge of L-Ion batteries, you fail to acknowledge that running one below 40% actually destroys the capacity of the cell.

[liveoilfree]

This is only true of A123, which has a very FLAT discharge curve; this sounds good, until you realize it falls off down to 2.3v, where it damages the electrodes. But NiMH and LG-CP do NOT HAVE THIS PROBLEM.

[liveoilfree]

Lithium as three big problems:

1. Short shelf life;

2. Low Cycle life;

3. High initial cost.

So why would you want to use unproven Lithium, which also has an explosion danger as well as the fact that you can't fully discharge it due to the flat discharge curve?

That's the whole point: start the VOLT using lead-acid, then upgrade to advanced batteries when available.

[MartinWibert]

Good lord, this guy needs to do some research. The Volt uses Li-Ion batteries. You can't repeatedly deep discharge them. His logic only fits when NiMH batteries are used.

[liveoilfree]

That's the whole problem, dude: the VOLT doesn't (yet) exist, BECAUSE it's using THE WRONG BATTERIES.

Indicating that GM is not serious about the VOLT.

[suggesttwo]

1.every time you convert from one energy to another you lose some energy. lose some in the generator, the inverter, batts. discharge: lose some in batts, inverter, motor.

2.electriciy is cheap, but polluting. one engineer posted a picture of a smoke stack from a coal fired generator with a note: tailpipe of the electric car

3.the fuel that can beat oil based fuel for environmental friendlyness is methane because it has only 1 carbon for every 4 hydrogen 1 methane + O2 = 1CO2 + 2H2O + heat

[ffsallnamestaken]

1. Does it matter when its renewable, unimited and clean energy?

2. Stop using power from coal plants then, you do have a choice where the electricity comes from!

Polution from creating parts for a normal/hybrid/fluid fuel using car (plugs, filters, fluids etc.) is WAY WORSE then if you had to power your EV from a coal plant.

3. Read 2. Hydrogen is certainly "better" but its far from the efficiency and friendlyness of Electricity. LOWER carbon doesnt save our kids kids kids n their kids.

[r4nd0mn4me]

How many times will he have to do it to get the message through your heads?

The man in the EV speaks the truth.

[ConnecticutFA]

you repeated your self around 30 times in the video

[JoelThedude4u]

its funny how you talk all these wonderful ideas, yet I dont seem to think that you are a mechanical or electrical engineer and then you say "all this stuff that makes no sense" when you probably dont know what some of them do like "this big box that apears to be something" its actually a Frequecy drive, which IS the brain of the car.

It may be posible to shrink it down now, but that might not been the case 7 or 8 yrs ago, so enjoy your EV and dont complain

[desertblbuesman]

sounds like you got one of the few good production cars made this century and with your roof charging, you got it made smart. Toyota has the resources and know how. They did it, then stopped. Why? I read your take about them joining the alliance. Probably correct. Thanks for the vid.

[liveoilfree]

It does seem that Toyota got into the auto "club" in exchange for killing their superior EV, the best EV ever made. And killing the EV-95 batteries. Toyota didn't fight Chevron, they surrendered.

[desertblbuesman]

A good book: "The car that could".

I forget the authors name. All about the EV1, conception, politics at the time, engineering, Ovinski, the big three, the lot. The intro states "it is a book about engineers". somewhat of a page turner. I enjoyed it very much.

[liveoilfree]

It's by Michael Shnayerson; but he missed a lot of the politics behind the scene, no one could know the DEPTHS of the hostility GM Board had (and has) for Electric cars.

[JoelThedude4u]

They stoped because chevron said so. period no chance for them. so they couldn't build any more, they completed the last ones they sold with spare parts.

also they couldn't make anymore batteries so they had to pay 30 million to Chevron to have permission to make the battery for the prius.

[diggingforgold]

I think the industry has its hands tied since the EV-95 battery got buried by the oil industry. All we have left with is LI-ION that just isn't cheap enough to provide the range that the average American is looking for. A 450 mile range Ford Ranger EV (converted by LionEV) costs over $40,000. Throw in a small ICE generator, and the cost would be around $45,000. Perfect solution for any driver. But way too expensive.

[TheAtomicAss]

But almost nobody really needs a 450 mile range. It's just what we've become accustomed to with ICE engines.  The actual daily range need is less than 50 miles. Personally, I could handle a 20-mile to 80% DOD range without having any need for an ICE generator.

[pjkPA]

A small generator will not run a car. The car would have to be too small.The VOLTs generator is a range extender. The VOLT is also flexible. The range extending engine could be a fuel cell or a diesel engine or just put more batteries in it and not have the range extending engine. The reality is that the batteries are expensive right now and the only way to keep the price down is the range extending engine. The CHEVY VOLT is the best concept we have.

[liveoilfree]

It takes at most 28 kW to keep a small SUV running at 60 mph. How do we know this? Because a RAV4-EV will go 60 miles in one hour, and the most it holds is 28 kWh.

That's a SMALL engine, 40 hp at most.

[pjkPA]

You are totally wrong.

You have to get up to 60mph then the power needs go down... but you are not considering what it takes to get to 60mph. A 40hp engine will not do it. You do not know what you are talking about.

[terrorist420x]

The Volt wouldn't use its generator to accelerate up to speed, but instead the electric drive system. So no, a large ICE is not needed. A 40 horsepower engine would probably be perfectly adequate to meet the Volt's needs; it would keep the battery pack charged and could be run at its most efficient operating point.

The batteries are expensive because no one is yet mass producing EVs.

[liveoilfree]

Actually, you are not a technical person, obviously. It takes a RAV4-EV about 1% to get to 60 mph, which is done from the battery that has 28 kWh, plenty of extra energy.

If the battery is depleted to, say, 40%, that would leave plenty to get to 60 mph and not even use the generator.

Moreover, you get 80% of that back when braking! Study.

[Killroy1999]

Nice RAV-4 EV! What is a Magna charger?

The power rating required to accelerate to 60 in under 12 seconds (AXP standard) is dependent on the mass of the car.

Honda FX ~114 hp

Prius  ~89 hp

Honda Insight ~58 hp

Aptera ~46 hp

Lesson: Make 'em light

[suggesttwo]

the faster you go the more energy is required. common sense. otherwise we could all just ride bicycles.

[DanFrederiksen]

I have heard the misguided notion too that once you are out of battery range you use the combustion generator to recharge the vehicle but I'm not sure that's GM's consistent viewpoint if it ever was. what is your source on that? if it is we need to shame them hard now when we still have a chance to influence the design. it would be so stupid a design that the only reason for it would be to make it more dependent on gas

[liveoilfree]

The VOLT is nothing, now, just a golf cart with 3 lead batteries. When and if it becomes more than a PR ploy, you can pontificate; we call it SERIAL HYBRID.

[90pupdiesel]

its SERIES just like a circuit. I really think you are confused with what the idea of the volt is. It IS a plug in just like your plan. But most of all remember SERIES not serial.

[liveoilfree]

It's not me who's confused, it's GM that's confused. They have all these bogus statements, but no running car. I've got a running EV, and drive it every day.

[milofonbil]

1) They fear that people discover that electricity is cheaper that gasoline, especially if you have Time of Use metering.

2) They fear that people discover that they can bank their solar energy they make during the day for cheaper electricity at night.

3) They fear that you won't stop at the gas station to buy slim jims and Coke or to visit the dealership to get an oil change and filter.

[ryddragyn]

Obviously we're not going to agree about anything anytime soon, and could go on arguing good-naturedly for a long while - but just answer me this. If GM does actually produce the Volt, and your Rav4ev got smashed up in an accident, would you consider buying a V?

[terrorist420x]

I don't speak for Doug, but I wouldn't. I'd take the money it would probably cost to buy a Volt(if it gets made), prefer to find an old Trans-Am and run a 300 kW twin AC150 setup with some Altair Nanos and name it "My Bitch" with two nymphomaniac lesbians painted on the hood just going at it, and give it the most crude charcoal grey paintjob imaginable. And studded tires and a very obnoxious sound system.

[liveoilfree]

ryd, 18-650 are about $400/kWh for the raw batteries; but they have to be welded in place using a flash-welder, and require a BMS. A typical pack of 56 kWh sells for $75,000 to $100,000 installed.

[ryddragyn]

BMSs of some sort are used on all large, multi-cell battery packs. Increasing cell size helps a lot. I was quoting 18650 cost as they're a convenient reference for mass production costs.

By 56kWh I assume you're referring to the Tesla pack. The WHOLE CAR costs 100k - including carbon fiber, motor, motor controller, expensive imported components from england, etc.

[terrorist420x]

IIRC, low volume, Tesla pack is $30000 including BMS and cooling. If Argonne National Laboratories claim of $250/kWh in mass production of EVs is true, we could have a $15000 Tesla pack counting in cooling and BMS. Shelf life is 5-10 years at most if cared for, and Tesla knows what they are doing. 250 miles range * 500 cycles is 125000 miles life if used before age causes pitting. In volume, factoring in lack of powertrain maintenance, Li Ion EVs break even at $3 gas.

[liveoilfree]

The problem is, you are insulting and don't know much about the technical details.

When you use an 18 kWh battery pack, but only address 8 kWh, you are being wildly expensive.

To compare, it would take a 50 kWh pack to be as wildly inefficient on the RAV4-EV.

The VOLT, too, is not a piece of hardware; it's a design, but not with much skill. You need to study.

[ryddragyn]

Where'd this 18kWh suddenly come from? It's 16kWh, discharged from 80%SOC to 30%SOC to optimize life and leave room for absorbing regen and genset surplus.

At SIMILAR ECONOMIES OF SCALE to current cobalt-based technology (using your own 400/kwH citation), that's still $6400 for the cells. Increasing the cell size should help decrease complexity of the whole pack (BMS, cooling, etc) - just as it did for large format NiMH back in the '90s.

[ryddragyn]

Sorry to blitz you with fact checks, but on the subject of cost-> currently conventional lithium sells for ~$0.6 per watt hour (18650s), or about $10k per 16kwh pack. LiFePO4 doesn't have the rare expensive cobalt in the (+) side, so if anything it should be cheaper to make. Cheapest NiMH (AAs) is ~$0.5/wH.

[liveoilfree]

ryd, you are wrong. A123 quotes $2000 per kWh; this number is validated by one of their users in a private conversation. They also DON'T HAVE A BMS, which means manual charging. Study.

[ryddragyn]

That's the cost at relatively low production volumes.

[terrorist420x]

Apples to apples, in automotive volume, Argonne National Laboratories quotes $250/kWh for 18650s. UC Davis quotes large format NiMH at $225/kWh in high volume in the Futuretruck reports. 18650s last 500 cycles to 100% discharge. Cobasys quotes 1,200 cycles to 80% discharge for the Ovonics. It is clear with RAV4 EV packs lasting over 150,000 miles in vehicles with 100 mile range that the EV95 are better still. NiMH is still the winner for operating cost, but not range or power per unit weight.

[ryddragyn]

This "hybrid mode" all has the effect of keeping the genset at its ideal point of efficiency (typically around 3000 rpm/55mph). Gas cars waste a lot of energy accelerating and at idle.

It's a similar load leveling effect than the prius, except more elegantly based on an EV architecture, and minus the torque converter and transmission losses.

[ryddragyn]

What makes the Volt different from something like a diesel electric train is that the battery is used for load leveling on the combustion engine. In other words, the combustion engine/generator supplies enough power for cruising at 55. Any surplus power is sent to the battery. When bursts of acceleration are needed, the battery supplies extra juice.

[ryddragyn]

Also:"If the genset comes on, it doesn't charge the battery! It makes no sense to use it to charge the battery, because you want the battery low in case you need to do regen braking, for example, on a long downhill run."

This doesn't really differ from the Volt design. The genset only comes on when the battery is low (30%SOC), and it supplies most of its power to the electric motor.

[ryddragyn]

On a final note, not to be too much of a GM apologist, but GM's entire goal with the Volt is NOT (I repeat, NOT) to just build a series hybrid PERIOD (like you have done), but to build the best damn one they can. That's why they chose Lithium ion. As an engineer, one has to have equal respect for realism and ambition. And for that, we need to put our full weight behind this project.

[liveoilfree]

I doubt that. You have no evidence; GM spent a lot of time and money killing and then crushing the EV1. So why believe they want to do "the best" VOLT?? Much more likely, they want to fool the gullible...and are doing so.

[ryddragyn]

I think you're just being a conspiracy theorist at this point.

[ryddragyn]

Doug, you may talk ad nauseum about "driving the future", but at the end of the day, all you're really doing is living in the past.

[terrorist420x]

If GM wanted to build the most efficient Volt they could, they'd first of all use a smaller generator. Even factoring in gradients, the one they are using is overkill in size. The peak efficiency of an Otto cycle engine is usually at about 1/2-2/3 throttle in the middle of the RPM range if you look at a BSFC map, and the Volt's genset is way oversized for normal highway speeds.

[terrorist420x]

NiMH could meet their goals today and the Volt won't have to worry much about pack weight being that the proposed concept will weigh 4,000 lbs! I didn't take the Volt seriously at first because of the horrible drag coefficient it originally had, but at least they improved that recently. The original display model was laughable; a case of laundry detergent under the hood.

[ryddragyn]

-On the other hand, the superior energy density of olivine lithium ion cathodes (which is 2-3 times that of even the best NiMH), allows one to build a 16kWh pack for a much more reasonable weight. The pack can also be cycled more shallowly (50%SOC depletion), so as to greatly extend the pack life for 3000-7000 cycles. Or in other words, 120,000 to 280,000 miles.

[liveoilfree]

LOL! Nickel batteries are just getting warmed up at 120,000 miles! A 16 kWh Lead Acid pack weighs 1200 lbs.; a 16 kWh Nickel pack weighs 600 lbs.

The Lithium pack, while only 400 lbs., also requires a liquid cooling system which also takes weight.

[ryddragyn]

400 pounds includes the liquid cooling. The batteries themselves - at an energy density of 100-140Wh/kg - only take up 250-350 pounds.

Liquid cooling is also overkill and overbuilding - that's the engineer's habit. FYI, NiMH cells can also benefit from liquid cooling - and in fact, Cobasys sells liquid-cooled NiMH packs for this very reason.

[ryddragyn]

At 40 miles range and 90% capacity remaining at 3000 cycles (at 100%DOD), LiFePO4 cells would be just getting warmed up at 120,00 miles as well.

[ryddragyn]

(Sorry if this gets double-posted cuz of Youtube being sily)

At 90% capacity remaining after 3000 cycles (100%DOD), LiFEPO4 cells would be just getting warmed up as well. (40 milesX3000cycles=120k miles)

[terrorist420x]

What about shelf life? With proper BMS and thermal management, aren't we looking at 10 years maximum? Nickel-based batteries can last decades, as evidenced by Edison's NiFe cells still operating and all the government surplus NiCds from the 1970s in the hands of hobbyists still delivering nameplate ratings. While the Panasonic NiMH have not been around that long, they seem to be holding up much better than any lithiums at this point; time will tell whether new Li Ions like altair beat them out.

[ryddragyn]

If one were to scale it down to 40mi for a compact car like the Volt (which is good given average commute distances, as well as to keep costs down) that would be about 16kWh and over 600lbs of cells. That weight would be prohibitive for building the vehicle-if not in terms of mass but in terms of volume. And almost certainly prohibitive in terms of cost. One could cut this in half by giving it 8kWh but that would necessitate deep-cycling, which would cut useful pack life down to 40,000mi

[liveoilfree]

Actually, 40 miles range with the EV1 only took 8 kWh, not 16 kWh.

So first you should study the engineering, before making statements which make no sense.

[ryddragyn]

Aha! And it is the EXACT same with the Volt. 50%SOC charge depletion before the range extender kicks in to prevent deep cycling.

[ryddragyn]

To clarify, the 16kWh uses up 8kWh of energy before the genset kicks in to prevent deep cycling and shortened battery life. Theoretically it could go 80 miles on a charge, but 50%SOC cycling is more gentle.

Really, Doug, this technical detail has been in the news for months. If you're going to criticize something at least understand it first.

[liveoilfree]

The problem is, you are insulting and don't know much about the technical details.

When you use an 18 kWh battery pack, but only address 8 kWh, you are being wildly expensive.

To compare, it would take a 50 kWh pack to be as wildly inefficient on the RAV4-EV.

The VOLT, too, is not a piece of hardware; it's a design, but not with much skill. You need to study.

[ryddragyn]

B)while it IS possible to retrofit NiMH Rav-4 EV to be a PHEV, this ignores a couple engineering technicalities. The Rav-4 is equipped with 60-100 miles' worth of batteries ->JOLLY expensive. Nonetheless, the large size of this pack extends its useful life cuz each deep cycle delivers more mileage. At 60 miles and a cycle life of 1800 cycles at 80%DOD, that's 108000 miles to dead. That's an expensive mid-life operation. You CANNOT expect every car firm to build a serial hybrid based on Rav4 EV.

[liveoilfree]

Actually, the RAV4-EV has over 100 miles range. I don't know why you are making things up; you need to take a test drive before making silly claims. Call 562-430-2495 to visit and drive an EV.

[terrorist420x]

Range would vary greatly with driving style I would think, but I can say with confidence judging from all the people who have driven RAV4 EVs that getting 100 miles range is very common in them. What do you think the range would be cruising at its top speed of 78 mph? I think it would be at least 70 miles at that speed. I might call your number sometime when I finally obtain work and can afford more minutes for my phone.

[ryddragyn]

The flaws I see in the specifics of this argument are

A) that modern Li-ion cells developed since the mid-90's (e.g. olivine and spinel cathodes) have reached a point of maturity where they are very disruptive to NiMH for automotive applications. They are disruptive in that they are just as safe as NiMH, yet experience 2X greater energy density, far better internal impedance/resistance, and are more environmentally friendly. There's also the all important issue of COST.

[liveoilfree]

Actually, lithium has always been the miracle battery, but it has never materialized. The total lifetime cost of Lithium is wildly more expensive than NiMH; Lithium lasts only 50K to 70K miles, and costs about 3 times NiMH.

[terrorist420x]

The lithium you mention was from the 1990s and early 2000s. Today's LiFePO4 could in theory do 100k miles on up, and in automotive volume, today's Li Ion would drop to $250/kWh according to Argonne National Laboratories. But the operating cost will STILL be higher than NiMH, even if such Li Ion might be able to break even at $3/gallon gas if such numbers hold true. NiMH? Cuenca and Gaines numbers suggest mass produced NiMH EVs would have cost parity with gas at $1.30/gallon!

[JackDragu]

Whats your thought on GM's dual-mode hybrids? I mean, why do they bother doing all that R&D on the dual-mode when

they 'claim' they will have a car that can go 40 miles a charge (no A.C. on) by 2010?

[liveoilfree]

The "dual mode" hybrid will allegedly increase fuel economy mpg by 20% to 40%, and is designed to be installed on pickups. At low speed, supposedly, it can inch along in Electric mode. But the cost might be $10,000 extra and it's difficult to imagine what demographic might buy it:

Contactors? Maybe for image, but we bill the cost of fuel to the customer.

Commuters and cruisers? They don't give a poop about mpg economy, unless it helps snag chicks.

So it's unclear who might buy one.

[JackDragu]

Looks like another bad move for GM. -No future for the usupersized SUV (unless it runs on septic fluids) . But I wonder if GM's hybrid buses are doing well? Do you know what is going on with the hybrid buses?

[liveoilfree]

They claim 23% improvement, a really pitiful 1 million gallons of fuel per year. Applied to cars, the all-electric can save that in one day. (Industryweek may 2007 has the figures)

[JackDragu]

What the...? I just found a bus utilizing a very, very, very, strange type of engine that doesn't use hydrogen or batteries. But... ZINC!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Enter 'Electric Fuel - Zinc-air buses in Las Vegas' on google video

[liveoilfree]

This is the famous Zinc Air battery, made by Electric Fuel (subsidiary of ARTX, an Israeli firm). The problems with Zinc Air are as follows, among others:

1. It can't be recharged, the battery has to be removed and reprocessed.

2. Power draw must be low, so it needs a front-end volatile battery.

ZnO has high energy density, it also has uses as military primary batteries (the army doesn't recharge batteries, it likes primary consumable batteries).

[JackDragu]

Yes, it looked practical for a personal EV application until I saw the ZnO batteries needed to be re-enriched in a crate.

A ZnO battery would be good for a primary consumable battery, but I prefer a rechargeable battery over a primary consumable.

[JackDragu]

I never heard of theis type of system.

electric-fuel (dot) com/evtech/index.shtml

[DrBrazil1]

I was watching a special on CNN today about a quasi-apocalyptic oil crises taking place during September and October of 2009—one year before the Volt is allegedly being put into production. Ironic isn't it?

[LovePontiac]

I'd like to know if you would still get good mileage if there was a Volt without a battery. They say a big part of the Volt's cost is the battery pack... so it would be nice if you could make a similar, but less expensive vehicle that didn't have it.

The mileage and cost of a Prius, the quietness, efficiency, performance, and reliability of an electric car, and styling of a Chevy.

People tell me that wouldn't work though... so I don't know.

[liveoilfree]

A generator can run without a battery pack, but the "noise" on it is not good, or so I am told. If you look at it on a scope, it's irregular. Feeding it into a battery pack is like smoothing it out. We do this with our solar system.

A volt without ANY Battery would not be able to vary motor speed without increasing RPM of the genset. It would be as clumsy as a fuel cell setup; they both need, in practice, a battery to smooth out demand.

[HAL11000]

Did you like my photo?

[liveoilfree]

I wish you'd repost it, I think it's the real thing.

[HAL11000]

Its solid evidence.

hal10000.deviantart (dot) com

I wonder who deleted my first post though?

[liveoilfree]

Youtube has a few problems with comments, as is obvious; I deleted it in error, my mistake. Sometimes comments nest, sometimes they disappear, sometimes you have to enter it several times before it "sticks".

[terrorist420x]

That's the Volt alright. A case of All laundry detergent under the hood. I've considered making a joke about the Chrysler Natrium and its alkaline fuel cell running on Sodium Borohydride on the blog this photo was originally posted on, but I refrained.

[liveoilfree]

Personal attacks with no substance? How about demonstrating your "knowledge". Like Lutz, you're probably completely ignorant of EVs, batteries, hybrids, etc.

Explain how the Volt "works", when it is not even a prototype yet. Under the hood of the prototype are 3 batteries and a golf cart motor, according to "insider" info.

[Bogt]

Well let's say they will make the Volt (if they ever will) the way it only charges the car when the battery's are empty, isn't it easy to make the modifications to make it run directly from the generator?

[liveoilfree]

Yes, GM should do this! But they can't even use one of the remaining EV1 or S10E to put under their "prototype".

[willdryden]

Yes, just don't plug it in. The problem becomes the cost of fuel. Charging the battery overnight is cheaper than the cost of .8 gal of gas.

If you try to run it directly from the generator with no battery or the battery at cut-off, you will loose half of the acceleration and hill climbing ability.

[tribluered]

great amount of Info. I am certain that GM can't seem to be able to hire the right engineers.

[terrorist420x]

More like GM is telling their engineers to purposely make substandard products.

However, one argument I will make is that for people who treat their accelerator as an on/off switch, if the pack gets depleted, the genset will not be powerful enough to meet their acceleration demand the way the Volt will supposedly be configured.

But Doug still makes very solid points.

[willdryden]

That is why GM starts the generator at 30% left in the batteries. When extra power is required for acceleration or long hill climbs, the battery will deplete below 30% to provide that power. The generator will then bring the pack back to 30% for the next hill climb if regen braking can't do it..

[liveoilfree]

Actually, GM doesn't start the generator at all, because it doesn't have a plug in car. Only promises.

[willdryden]

No, they have test mules. I know you do not think the Volt will be built but I think they know they have no choice this time. The EV is coming and hybrids are the bridge until fast charge batteries and the charging stations are built.

[liveoilfree]

I'm not disagreeing with you; GM may be forced to build an EV, but it won't be of their own volition. Part of my negativism is so that they should prove me wrong, and actually build the car. But will GM even be around? Lutz is leaving prior to delivery.

[willdryden]

The Volt is not an EV. I know you and I agree with that. That removes the major problem from the dealers point of view of no service. With all the publicity, the other manufacturers are gearing up to compete with the Volt. GM has to built it or they will be behind again just like they are with parallel hybrids.

[liveoilfree]

Will, The problem with this argument - and it's otherwise a good one - is that GM doesn't believe other mfgs are serious...and neither do I. So if it's all a sham, using the wrong battery, it's just to kill EVs all over again.