Socialism in the USA - Kurt Vonnegut

[randy95023]

As a Baptist Minister I'd like to state that if Jesus was wandering among the people today He would be so Far to the Left that He would be off the charts! My fellow Baptists would kick me out of the Church but I'll stand by it. No one could read Jesus' Teachings and not see that He would very much enjoy "taking from the rich and giving to the poor". Yeah, Robin Hood and Jesus would both hate the Sheriff and the Tax Collector, but Jesus would forgive them...

Peace, Randy

[TeboFire]

@randy95023 This is for you buddy:

St Matthew 22 36-40

Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

How can you love thy neighbor as thyself if you cannot respect their freewill?

[TeboFire]

@randy95023 God created people to be creative. Controlling people would only undermine that objective. So if God won’t control people what makes you think you should?

And if what you say is true then why isn’t he down here controlling everyone. Does he not have the power?

Socialism will always apply the use of control without regard for freewill to accomplish its goals. Hence, it forms codependency bonds between the controllers (the aggressive) and the controlled (the passive).

[TeboFire]

@randy95023 Theft is a form of dependency; charity is a form in interdependence which cannot exist without respect for the freewill of others. Christ teachings inherently show respect for the freewill of others above all else.

But the real question in all of this is whether or not you see the connection between socialism and dependency? And why you would think that dependents could provide a solid foundation for society?

[TeboFire]

Well, whether you like it or not socialists today are dead set against religion. Interpret Marxist text in any way you like it will not change the rederick spouting from today’s socialists.

BTW Carol Marx was anti-religion.

[fateola]

@TeboFire

Well, whether you like it or not, Christians today are dead set against homosexuality. Interpret Biblical text in any way you like, it will not change the *rhetoric* spouting from today's Christians.

[TeboFire]

@fateola So your implying that homosexuals are socialist? Seems a bit of a stretch to me but I guess your entitled to your opinion.

In either case, your version mine, it only exposes the dependency that has become idealized in our culture today.

One question though; if Christ & God being all powerful were to take such a position then why are they not down here to overseeing a socialist Government?

[fateola]

@TeboFire

Are you being obtuse on purpose?

My point, which I shall restate, was this: how a school of thought is practiced by some of its followers does not define the school of thought. Many Christians would take offense at being labeled homophobic bigots, in the same way that many Socialists would take offense at being labeled Stalinists. By equating the "rederick" (lol) you hear from socialists in your narrow experience of the world to what socialism is, is outstandingly ignorant.

[fateola]

@TeboFire "One question though; if Christ & God being all powerful were to take such a position then why are they not down here to overseeing a socialist Government?"

And seriously? Do you actually mean this? Not only is it a strawman, but by the exact same argument God should be down here preventing any sin from occurring.

[TeboFire]

@fateola Just because you endorse passive dependency rather than an aggressive dependency does not change the fact that you are endorsing dependency.

God is not down here controlling your life because he created people to be creative. Controlling people would only undermine that objective. So if God won’t do it what make you think you should?

It seems to me your rosy perspective of socialism is about as limited as your knowledge of my opinion of the matter.

[fateola]

@TeboFire

The point has nothing to do with God, nor anything to do with whether I personally support socialism, so quit rambling. I am simply calling you out on your incorrect generalizations. You stated that socialists are dead set against religion. That is outright false, and drawn from your limited knowledge of socialism. Why are you having so much trouble following a linear argument?

[TeboFire]

@fateola LOL – you are obviously cornered and have no place to go. Otherwise you would not be blaming me for the diversion of this debate on me.

After all you’re the one who brought in homosexuality, being obtuse, how people practice schools of thought, Stalinist communism, the spelling of rhetoric.

So if you don’t understand why I’m having trouble following your “LINEAR ARGUMENT” then perhaps you should go back through it yourself.

[fateola]

@TeboFire

Wait. Just wait a second. Are you seriously telling me now that you didn't understand that I was drawing a PARALLEL between your comment about communism and religion, and comments that are often made about christianity and homosexuality? That was not a new topic. That was designed to illustrate how ridiculous your comment was. Oh boy. Enough of this nonsense.

[TeboFire]

@fateola Oh, No! Believe me I got it. You realize that we had moved on dont you?

Personally I dont see anything wrong with Christians being dead set against homosexuality

What really confuses me is why you would associate homosexuality with socialism? The two just dont seem to be related

But the real question in all of this is whether or not you see the connection between socialism and dependency? And why you would think that dependents could provide a solid foundation for society?

[fateola]

@TeboFire

Read this carefully:

I am NOT associating homosexuality with socialism. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. I suggest you reread from the beginning, possibly with external assistance.

Regarding your pet topic of socialism/dependency, which you seem desperate to talk about regardless of context.... Society necessarily contains many dependents: children, the unemployed, disabled, and elderly. If you would leave these groups to the wolves, then we differ in opinion.

[TeboFire]

@fateola Well, usually when people mock someone else’s words there is a connection between the statement you are mocking and the statement that makes the mockery.

Of course you were only mocking my statement to point out the generalization and I assume that people know the rules of generalizations so for me it was a moot point.

Since I assumed you were intelligent it naturally follows that there should be a deeper point than just that. Sorry for overestimating your inelegance.

[TeboFire]

@fateola As to the more intellectual part of your last statement I say:

Good point I should have been more specific. Let me modify to say “willfully dependent”.

Socialist ideologies are ravaged because they fail to discriminate between the “dependent” (those you have pointed out) and the “willfully dependent” in any meaningful ways.

[fateola]

@TeboFire

Well that's not true either; again, you're generalizing too far. Different socialist ideologies define dependents in different ways. Moreover, there is no clear distinction between those who are willful and those who are not. Any imposed distinction is arbitrary. Besides, the police and fire departments, and the military are all socialist institutions. I wonder if you are opposed to being dependent upon them?

[TeboFire]

@fateola This can only happen in a free market society that is protected from corruption by a judicial system founded on correct principles. Unfortunately that vision of the USA fades because people would rather force their values on others.

[TeboFire]

@fateola The only short coming here is that the distinction between willful dependence and classic dependence is not exactly arbitrary.

That is; it is only arbitrary when imposed by others. A willful dependent knows exactly what their intentions are; are rightfully in control of their destiny; and will always be motivated to achieve their goals.

Because of this it must be that individuals have freedom so that the willfully dependent may fall and the classic dependent rise.

[TeboFire]

@fateola Wow you surprise me.

2 things you got right:

Yes, different socialist ideologies define and treat dependents in different ways. Some put you in work camps others pass the burden on.

What I really like is your astute observation that any “imposed” distinction between willful dependence and classic dependence is arbitrary.

This is exactly why freewill is so important and in turn is exactly why socialist rules invariably imposed on a dissenting portion of the population FAIL.

[S2Cents]

SOMETIMES I don't know if something in Marx leads to the gulag or if something in the Bible leads to torturing...

Obviously good Christians and good socialists are against murdering innocent people and torture and wrongful imprisonment, but that's obvious. Nobody with any concern for truth would claim socialists all approve of Stalin or that Christians agree with the Grand Inquisitor

[edgar0001]

OBama is the capitalists president and kills liyan people in their socialist country he want to robb for his corporations: NATO bombs meeting of libyan bishops in Brega (view from far away) watch?v=Hpy-psuDz6U same killing of libyan Imams in Brega,Libya + destruction (arb. engl.subs) /watch?v=xTo9-pXIsuw watch?v=_lB4oIGFxaw watch?v=LII4opY7mbg watch?v=5-TZxI8m8ss watch?v=MB-wumHm9xY watch?v=X9GtuTFJSw0 watch?v=MB-wumHm9xY watch?v=X9GtuTFJSw0 watch?v=Q0XsF03fNM4

[n0t5ur3]

Socialism is a modern religion and borrows a lot from Christianity

[bek12]

I had never read anything by Vonnegut before, but after reading Man Without a Country, I came to the conclusion that he was a genius.

[BrandyAlexander]

socialism is a form of govt, christianity is a religion they cant be subbed for each other. He is simply pointing out the hypocrisies in our culture. It's an amazing book, go pick it up.

[CrocoproductionsEU]

This is not true. Karl Marx was grown up a jew in Germany and released his books about the socialism in England. The thinkings of the Socialism made by Karl Marx was taken by lenin, Trotskij and Stalin which evolved it to Communism.

[fdutjklr]

@CrocoproductionsEU The Russian three didn't evolve anything into Communism. In Marxist theory, Communism was a stateless, classless stage of advanced socialism. Not all socialists are communists, but all communists are socialists according to Marxists--just spokes in a wheel. Lenin--who was the only one who contributed anything theorertically--revised marx's theory to fit Russia's situation. Russia was a feudal society up until 1917, even after the earlier 1905 'bourgeois' revolution.

[dmnemaine]

Just because a religious belief gives you comfort doesn't mean that said belief is the truth or even that it is necessarily good. Telling someone who is dying of cancer that they are healthy may give that person comfort, but it is a false comfort.

[vespacurry]

What he is saying is... both religion and socialism are not bad... they are ruined only by the people who take control of these ideals.

[p1zl3]

Socialism/Communism (as time has shown) is a failing ethos...

People who look to government to solve their problems are fools of the highest order. Even Anarchy has more merit than Socialism.

--Educate yourselves!

[dmnemaine]

@p1zl3,

When you have a democratic republic like the United States where the government is made up of representatives chosen by the people, then in effect, the people ARE the government. If such a nation adopts a socialist or even partly socialist economy it is in essence the people looking to THEMSELVES to solve their problems rather than trusting them to private industry whose only motive is profit. As you say admonished others -- educate yourself!

[fdutjklr]

@dmnemaine It should also be said that Socialism is misrepresented in almost every textbook written by non-socialist academics. Socialism is not just state-ownership. Lenin adopted state ownership as a means to industrialization not as an end in itself. Socialism is characterised by the labor theory of value it can be collectivist or individualist. There are some individualist socialists such as Pierre-Joseph Proudhon who debated marx frequently. I only have so many characters so I can't explain

[bek12]

@p1zl3 After living in this world for almost 42 years now, I can say that Capitalism has certainly failed the people. At this point, socialism sounds like a very good alternative. Let the workers own their own factory, instead of big companies like GE paying NO taxes and the little people footing the bill for the billionaires.

[warmongerpro]

@p1zl3 the original anarchists (bakunin, proudhon etc) were socialists, who split from the communists in the 19th century due to theoretical differences. both anarchists and communists are socialists who believe that the state is ultimately undesirable, but they have different views on how to get rid of the state. anarchists think it should be removed by force, but communists think it will wither away once class struggle is resolved.

[BBBoggs]

Pretend Vonnegut sounds like Reagan when he did those recording on Socialism back in the 50s.

[smujismuj]

Religion is institutionalized myth, perpetuated by ignorance, fear, control-freaks and hear/say.

If there is a 'supreme being, it shouldn't need human beings mucking up it's message,

The whole notion of a 'man-like'' being having invented all of existence is beyond absurd.

[MrRedFredSaid]

Thank you! This is precisely what I believe. I find it to be obvious. But a lot of people don't seem to get that.

[snapplepeachtea56]

tbh i think that socialism might be better for us right now and this video has a point it has the same aspects as Christianity

[muellerican]

Socialism will never happen in America. In fact Socialism (haha) will happen when a Black man with an Arab name become President!!! what? it happened already? what!!!!!!!!!!!??? omg

[jmoellen]

The movement that shows the intersection points between Christianity and Socialism most clearly is Liberation Theology or, more generally, the principle of Christian Socialism. Anti-socialist Christians should really look it up on Wikipedia.

[AntiVenomFangX]

yea, i noticed that all of these loud christians are against socialism.... do they not know about the teachings of jesus?

[ToSaveANationDotCom]

@AntiVenomFangX -You have actually missed the 1 defining principle between Jesus' teachings and socialism - where Jesus taught freedom of choice (he never forced anyone to do anything), socialism teaches man that he has the right to steal from other men. Jesus let the rich man walk away sorrowful, he did not steal his money to feed the poor. Socialists do not let rich men walk away, they steal their money. If they fight back they throw them into prison, or kill them. The difference is choice..

[AntiVenomFangX]

@ToSaveANationDotCom

it still makes him a socialist. so what if he didnt force his socialist views on others? my point was and is that he is socialist.

[CarlosIsDown]

@ToSaveANationDotCom But Jesus wasn't a Rayndian Regressive, surely. He didn't say the lepers that they didn't "deserve" a cure. He said if you're rich, you're going to hell because obviously you're standing there with immense wealth while those around you suffer.

[TeboFire]

@AntiVenomFangX Yea!? I wonder what Jesus would think about a passive regard to people who would rather not work and the people who force them to work since it is a drag on their socialist utopia?

[strummeresque]

@AntiVenomFangX As Kurt Vonnegut himself pointed out numerous times, the only words we know for certain that were spoken by Jesus, the only words that HE saw fit for recording, were the words of the Sermon on the Mount. Christians, by and large, seem to pay much more attention to what OTHER people say about what Christ thought was right than what Christ HIMSELF said...

[WaleedRahman]

What is he reading from?

[dogblessamerica]

His final book, 'A Man Without A Country'.

[RandyPrincePhilip]

Pretend Vonnegut voice.