The frustrating thing is that there are two known TBD Devastator wrecks in the ocean that are recoverable but the Navy keeps dragging it's feet. There are zero TBD's left in the world and one of these wrecks should be recovered. I don't think either wreck is a war grave and there is much talk of recovery but it does not get done. We need a fitting memorial to VT-8.
"Ring subsequently led the group on an incorrect heading which resulted in the failure of the dive bombers to make contact with the Japanese fleet. Commander Waldron made repeated attempts to take over the formation by radio before leading VT-8 off on his own.[2] Waldron's initiative coupled with Ring's faulty tactics led to VT-8 attacking the Japanese force without fighter or dive bomber support."--Wikipedia
... they weren't suicide planes but probably knew the Japanese pilots had the edge in experience while they were expending themselves to gain that experience or to at least provide the time to others to follow who would overwhelm the enemy....all of the USN crews in 1942 did that....from the men in the Asiatic fleet, the carriers at the Coral Sea and Midway, and the hard pressed ships in the Solomons.....more and better was coming but JAPAN had to fought to a stand still first.
Having gained the dubious honor of being the lone survivor of his squadron, Ensign George Gay would devote the remainder of his life to ensuring that the bravery and the sacrifice of his comrades-in arms in Torpedo Squadron 8 would never be forgotten.
I was priveleged to meet George Gay at the Confederate Air Force home base in 1992- I think it was October. I told him I had read that a few of the TBD-1s had a .50 cal. gun in the nose instead of the .30 cal. and he said 'that's bull****!" Oops- sorry Mr. Gay. He went on to be an airline pilot sometime after WWII.
The loss of so many gallant US Naval Aviators in this battle is tragic. They surely must have known how their inferior machines - particularly the sadly-outdated TBD-1's - virtually made their mission a suicide one - especially in the instances of such grand leaders as CMDR Waldron. The magnificent Capt (later Vice-Admiral) Marc Mitscher, Hornet's Commander at the time & himself a pioneer aviator of some repute, must have felt a special sense of loss, re Torpedo 8 ....
@colindominy Devastator gets a bad rap for Midway do not forget there were 6 Avenger torpedo bombers that took off from Midway and 5 of the 6 were shot down and the survivor was damage beyond repair. Torpedo bomber crews had low life expectancy flying low and slow before Midway Devastators sank the jap carrier Shoho at Coral Sea and were sucessful in earlier battles when giving fighter escorts. No fighter escorts at Midway led to slaughter,
@jers59 Ironically, the 6 Avengers that were flown from midway were the transitional det. of the Hornets' own VT8! LCDR Waldron's squadron had been selected to switch over from the TDB to the new TBF. A det. of VT-8 personnel was ashore in Hawaii training on the new a/c when Hornet was ordered out toward Midway with Enterprise and, later, Yorktown. The TBFs were flown to Midway by VT-8 personnel and flown against the Japanese from land.
I read that the Navy is trying to recover/restore a TBD basket case in the Pacific. There is another one in about 600 feet of wtaer off of Miami that a number of years ago Doug Champlin from the Fighter Aces Museum was going to recover and restore.
The assholes at the Naval museum in Pensacola blocked him at every turn. Even after he won his case in Federal Court the Navy found a way to stop him again. Every day the remains of this plane corrode more and it will now probably never be recovered.
this was after the navy said they would recover it, 10 years latter its still off Florida someone recovered the canopy from it and navy forced him to turn it over
@182436hike There are 2 Devastators that could be recovered in Pacific in good condition there is organization same clowns who are looking for Amelia Earhart who keeps claiming since 2006 that they will recover one took only 1 year to build Empire State building and they still have not recovered it. Sounds like scam for money
Waldron must have been like Evans, of the USS Johnston in the Battle off Samar. He and his men had no interest in their own personal safety - and had all the interest and mental focus possible by humankind upon avenging Pearl Harbour and protecting their fellow free and democratic peoples of the world (I'm Canadian) - Squadron 's kind are the true metal of "true" protection forces. Hugs and awe for the medal of honour types of this planet, in giving all for the Good Fight.
Commander Waldrons VT8, Commander Massey VT3, and Commander Lindsey VT6, sacrified themselves and drew the Japanese fighter cover ....So the dive bombers could finish the Akagi, Kaga and Soryu...........God Bless You VT8, VT6 and VT3.....R.I.P.
Waldron was part Souix and knew how to track an opponent...I think he knew he and his torpedo group couldn't possibly make it back & that in order for the Americans to win at Midway a sacrifical -and suicidal-attack had to be made. They -Torpedo 8- did it for their country...and should have been given the CMH (posthumously)
@Waistgunner39 Be very careful about attributing suicidal motives to the deeds of American WW2 servicemen. They generally scorned the Japanese love of death. Although willing to take great risks, these men considered intentional suicide the province of lunatics and fanatics. Waldron was a husband and father of two little girls, to imply he willfully flew, and led his men, to certain death, with no hope of survival, is an insult to him and all Naval officers.
@dresdenbarber I wasnt trying to "insult" anyone..only to try and point out that they all gave their lives for their country. What torpedo 8 did was an immense act of bravery.
I agree too, and I have always assumed most of the men of the squadron launched from the carrier that day believing the same thing: That they wouldn't make it back.
Hiryu would have been atomized from the planet anyway. But VT-8 helped it happen faster - The divebombers were extra sharp, extra accurate, knowing these fine young buds from VT-8 had given their lives in their successful diversion of japs' planes. Salute!!!! (These guys were kamikaze's *they knew they couldn't have gotten back. That's balls of the highest order.)
@wayfaerer320 , According to the recent book Dawn Like Thunder, the Story of Torp. Eight. Hornets Air Group commander refused to allow Hornets Fighters to cover her torpedo planes! The CAG commander and Waldron disagreed on where the Japanese were. Waldron disobeyed orders, found the enemy, attacked with valour and futility. The rest of Hornets air group failed to make contact with the Japanese.
Very brave men-trully dedicated to the task at a pivotal battle. They probably saved a year off the battle and additional lives. Sad to speculate how many knew they had parless planes...
Is this actually the full version of the John Ford film? One of those "fifty private copies" of his original, private "for the families" only copies?
If so, then I truly do thank you for posting it for those of us out here in the "general public."
And, at the same time, I hope doing so did NOT offend the families of the original members (who family members gave such a sacrifice for the rest of us).
If it DOES offend them, I can only offer my thanks, in the hope that it's enough.
my favorite aircraft when giving fighter protection as they had in coral sea they did good sank jap carrier shoho. Only one avenger returned to midway also
@jers59 VT8 had been selected as the first Navy Squadron to receive the Avenger. The 6 Midway based TBF s were actually flown by VT8 personnel who had been transitioning to the new a/c in Hawaii.
@VeeGlo 5 of the 6 Avengers were shot down and the 6th never flew again Devastators received bad press for midway which overlooked there early sucess when they had proper fighter escorts
Search Youtube for the song "The War Was In Color" by the band Carbon Leaf. It's about a grandfather explaining WWII to his grandson, and the video uses real WWII battle footage.
Outstanding video documenting some very brave men; heroes all. Many don't realize how much these young men actually affected the battle. Thank you so much for sharing this.
Waldron told his squadron they didn't have a great chance at returning. These young guys went anyway...when there was so much at stake for our country. What true courage. I wish there was a much better recounting of their sacrfice than the barely adequate "Midway" movie from 1975.
Too slow, no armor, poor armament,and lacking self-sealing fuel tanks these planes were a death trap in 1942. These very brave men are true heros in every sense of the word. I'm sure they knew that they might not return, but they went out anyway. God bless them all.
Not to mention no fighter escort. Those guys didn't stand a chance, and the only one who survived, George Gay, spent over 30 hours in the water before being picked up by a flying boat from Midway. He passed away in 1994 and was cremanted. His ashes were cast into the pacific near the spot where he and his squadron took off on their mission.
Great footage of some very brave guys. I'm building a 1/32 model of a TBF-1C and would like to know if anyone has the crew names and Bu number and A/C number of any of Hornet's Midway TBFs. Am building a collection of Midway participants. Thanks
Wow, thank God for the National Archives. That's a type of thing we don't see enough of in the history shows out there now. Simply amazing, such confident, brave men.
I guess it's hard to say. The TBD's did okay in a coordinated attack at Coral Sea, but this was with overwhelming firepower against only one carrier, and even then their torps wouldn't explode.
There are 2 intact TBD Devastators in the semi-shallow waters of Jaluit Lagoon in the Marshall Islands. Their crews ditched on Feb.1 1942 after becoming disoriented after a raid and running low on fuel. They became prisoners and survived the war. Hopefully the planes can be recovered soon.
@smilodino VT8 had a detachment of personnel ashore in Hawaii, including the squadron executive officer, who were undergoing transition training to TBFs when the Hornet got orders to head out for Midway. It was decided later to ferry the avengers out to Midway independent of Hornet using these VT8 personnel.
So awesome, thanks for posting, heard about the video but never saw. Those brave men paved the way for victory in the pacific. I would like to see the article in the Life magazine. Thank you for sharing that historical moment. I'm a big wwII buff, especially the pacific theater. I have a game called Battle stations Midway for the xbox 360 and playing that brings a little chill.
I am a living historian and I put ensigns George Gays flight gear together. I stand net to a corsair at a WWII museum that volunteer in and I talk about midway and what happened. We don't have any dauntless dive bombers. We just bought a Catalina sea plane. They will land the plane and I will walk out. The soul survivor of torpedo 8. God bless these guys. Thanks!
as a gift (if you will share with others interested) a pretty fair copy of the video ... full sized NTSC rather than YouTube quality. I'll also send a scanned version of the Life magazine article too. Cheers
If only our youth would relize the integrity and bravery of such men.
MrMFHORN 1 month ago
The frustrating thing is that there are two known TBD Devastator wrecks in the ocean that are recoverable but the Navy keeps dragging it's feet. There are zero TBD's left in the world and one of these wrecks should be recovered. I don't think either wreck is a war grave and there is much talk of recovery but it does not get done. We need a fitting memorial to VT-8.
hoodoo2001 1 month ago
At about 30-40 seconds in, play this.
watch?v=tMrFiOjxk5s
Maybe it's not fitting, but I thought it was.
killerkirbydude 4 months ago
"We will go in. We won't turn back. We will attack. Good luck....."
tanatej 5 months ago
This footage was take at Coral Sea a month before Midway. Fayle was not at Midway nor was Ellisons gunner.
maxsmodels 6 months ago
You all realize that this is PROPAGANDA. Yes, the US won. But it is still propaganda.
cochranexyz 6 months ago
@cochranexyz Are you serious?
warwatcher91 5 months ago
"Ring subsequently led the group on an incorrect heading which resulted in the failure of the dive bombers to make contact with the Japanese fleet. Commander Waldron made repeated attempts to take over the formation by radio before leading VT-8 off on his own.[2] Waldron's initiative coupled with Ring's faulty tactics led to VT-8 attacking the Japanese force without fighter or dive bomber support."--Wikipedia
clintonearlwalker 7 months ago
... they weren't suicide planes but probably knew the Japanese pilots had the edge in experience while they were expending themselves to gain that experience or to at least provide the time to others to follow who would overwhelm the enemy....all of the USN crews in 1942 did that....from the men in the Asiatic fleet, the carriers at the Coral Sea and Midway, and the hard pressed ships in the Solomons.....more and better was coming but JAPAN had to fought to a stand still first.
crpdst2003 1 year ago
We stand on the shoulders of giants.
sonarman65 1 year ago
poor sods
immortalass 1 year ago
The remains were never found or recovered...
I hope one day we will meet those galantry man again.
Waldron was always an exemple for now and then.
Cavelson 1 year ago
Having gained the dubious honor of being the lone survivor of his squadron, Ensign George Gay would devote the remainder of his life to ensuring that the bravery and the sacrifice of his comrades-in arms in Torpedo Squadron 8 would never be forgotten.
NCTaikoDrumboy 1 year ago
I was priveleged to meet George Gay at the Confederate Air Force home base in 1992- I think it was October. I told him I had read that a few of the TBD-1s had a .50 cal. gun in the nose instead of the .30 cal. and he said 'that's bull****!" Oops- sorry Mr. Gay. He went on to be an airline pilot sometime after WWII.
DH2pilot 2 years ago
John Waldron the squadron's skipper died climbing out of his devastator upon impact with the water, poor man.
acepilot1997 2 years ago
Ensign George Gay was the only survivor from this mission of VT-8.
msuber 2 years ago
The Land Of The Free And Home Of The Brave ... VT-8
rutledge9016 2 years ago
Only one guy survive , all planes shot down .
7511232 2 years ago 2
The loss of so many gallant US Naval Aviators in this battle is tragic. They surely must have known how their inferior machines - particularly the sadly-outdated TBD-1's - virtually made their mission a suicide one - especially in the instances of such grand leaders as CMDR Waldron. The magnificent Capt (later Vice-Admiral) Marc Mitscher, Hornet's Commander at the time & himself a pioneer aviator of some repute, must have felt a special sense of loss, re Torpedo 8 ....
colindominy 2 years ago
@colindominy Devastator gets a bad rap for Midway do not forget there were 6 Avenger torpedo bombers that took off from Midway and 5 of the 6 were shot down and the survivor was damage beyond repair. Torpedo bomber crews had low life expectancy flying low and slow before Midway Devastators sank the jap carrier Shoho at Coral Sea and were sucessful in earlier battles when giving fighter escorts. No fighter escorts at Midway led to slaughter,
jers59 1 year ago
@jers59 Ironically, the 6 Avengers that were flown from midway were the transitional det. of the Hornets' own VT8! LCDR Waldron's squadron had been selected to switch over from the TDB to the new TBF. A det. of VT-8 personnel was ashore in Hawaii training on the new a/c when Hornet was ordered out toward Midway with Enterprise and, later, Yorktown. The TBFs were flown to Midway by VT-8 personnel and flown against the Japanese from land.
VeeGlo 11 months ago
I read that the Navy is trying to recover/restore a TBD basket case in the Pacific. There is another one in about 600 feet of wtaer off of Miami that a number of years ago Doug Champlin from the Fighter Aces Museum was going to recover and restore.
182436hike 2 years ago
The assholes at the Naval museum in Pensacola blocked him at every turn. Even after he won his case in Federal Court the Navy found a way to stop him again. Every day the remains of this plane corrode more and it will now probably never be recovered.
182436hike 2 years ago
this was after the navy said they would recover it, 10 years latter its still off Florida someone recovered the canopy from it and navy forced him to turn it over
jers59 2 years ago
@182436hike There are 2 Devastators that could be recovered in Pacific in good condition there is organization same clowns who are looking for Amelia Earhart who keeps claiming since 2006 that they will recover one took only 1 year to build Empire State building and they still have not recovered it. Sounds like scam for money
jers59 1 year ago
Waldron must have been like Evans, of the USS Johnston in the Battle off Samar. He and his men had no interest in their own personal safety - and had all the interest and mental focus possible by humankind upon avenging Pearl Harbour and protecting their fellow free and democratic peoples of the world (I'm Canadian) - Squadron 's kind are the true metal of "true" protection forces. Hugs and awe for the medal of honour types of this planet, in giving all for the Good Fight.
fuhmeregan 2 years ago 2
Commander Waldrons VT8, Commander Massey VT3, and Commander Lindsey VT6, sacrified themselves and drew the Japanese fighter cover ....So the dive bombers could finish the Akagi, Kaga and Soryu...........God Bless You VT8, VT6 and VT3.....R.I.P.
northshore7x 2 years ago 2
Thanks for posting this, n1014f. Every June 4th I fly my flag and think about these guys.
nyc4044 2 years ago 2
Yessir.
For whatever reason, these men are never all that far from my own thoughts either. Nor does it take much to bring them right to the front once again.
Mulsanne917andkink 2 years ago
Waldron was part Souix and knew how to track an opponent...I think he knew he and his torpedo group couldn't possibly make it back & that in order for the Americans to win at Midway a sacrifical -and suicidal-attack had to be made. They -Torpedo 8- did it for their country...and should have been given the CMH (posthumously)
Waistgunner39 2 years ago 5
I agree ... read A DAWN LIKE THUNDER: The True Story of Torpedo Squadron Eight .... cheers
n1014f 2 years ago
@n1014f I love that book so much. Poor Jay Manning :( blown up by a 20mm in Bert Earnest's plane.
acepilot1997 1 year ago
@Waistgunner39 Be very careful about attributing suicidal motives to the deeds of American WW2 servicemen. They generally scorned the Japanese love of death. Although willing to take great risks, these men considered intentional suicide the province of lunatics and fanatics. Waldron was a husband and father of two little girls, to imply he willfully flew, and led his men, to certain death, with no hope of survival, is an insult to him and all Naval officers.
dresdenbarber 1 year ago 2
@dresdenbarber I wasnt trying to "insult" anyone..only to try and point out that they all gave their lives for their country. What torpedo 8 did was an immense act of bravery.
Excuse me all to hell.
Waistgunner39 1 year ago
@Waistgunner39
I agree too, and I have always assumed most of the men of the squadron launched from the carrier that day believing the same thing: That they wouldn't make it back.
Mulsanne917andkink 1 year ago
@Waistgunner39 of course you mean he was part Sioux.
maestroz25 1 year ago
Waldron radioed they were going the wrong way, Stanhope Ring's reply, Im leading this formation you fly with us
so Waldron took VT-8 off on their own
found the enemy ships, Ring flew the air group to no where
racedinghy 2 years ago
Hiryu would have been atomized from the planet anyway. But VT-8 helped it happen faster - The divebombers were extra sharp, extra accurate, knowing these fine young buds from VT-8 had given their lives in their successful diversion of japs' planes. Salute!!!! (These guys were kamikaze's *they knew they couldn't have gotten back. That's balls of the highest order.)
fuhmeregan 3 years ago
Too bad Mitscher did not permit them to have fighter cover......
jamz50 3 years ago
jamz50,
Torpedo 8 did have an assigned escort flight of Wildcats, but the F4F's became disoriented and never rendezvoused with Torpedo 8.
wayfaerer320 3 years ago 3
@wayfaerer320 , According to the recent book Dawn Like Thunder, the Story of Torp. Eight. Hornets Air Group commander refused to allow Hornets Fighters to cover her torpedo planes! The CAG commander and Waldron disagreed on where the Japanese were. Waldron disobeyed orders, found the enemy, attacked with valour and futility. The rest of Hornets air group failed to make contact with the Japanese.
VeeGlo 1 year ago
RIP, they truly were brave men
slayerrat 3 years ago 4
Very brave men-trully dedicated to the task at a pivotal battle. They probably saved a year off the battle and additional lives. Sad to speculate how many knew they had parless planes...
AmericanDemon7 3 years ago 2
Thank you very much for sharing this film.
baybreeze6050 3 years ago 3
RIP brave pilots of VT-8. *salute*
A shame the TBD Devastator was obsolete. It is one of my most favorite planes of WWII,a nd will always be.
straswa 3 years ago 2
The True American Heros! Going into battle with useless torpedoes and a useless airplane. What studs! God Bless
mpbunch 3 years ago 2
Is this actually the full version of the John Ford film? One of those "fifty private copies" of his original, private "for the families" only copies?
If so, then I truly do thank you for posting it for those of us out here in the "general public."
And, at the same time, I hope doing so did NOT offend the families of the original members (who family members gave such a sacrifice for the rest of us).
If it DOES offend them, I can only offer my thanks, in the hope that it's enough.
mulsanne917 3 years ago 2
1:29 If this portrait is the same as the photo I've seen, George Gay is kneeling in the center of the front row.
TheSanityInspector 3 years ago
my favorite aircraft when giving fighter protection as they had in coral sea they did good sank jap carrier shoho. Only one avenger returned to midway also
jers59 2 years ago
@jers59 VT8 had been selected as the first Navy Squadron to receive the Avenger. The 6 Midway based TBF s were actually flown by VT8 personnel who had been transitioning to the new a/c in Hawaii.
VeeGlo 1 year ago
@VeeGlo 5 of the 6 Avengers were shot down and the 6th never flew again Devastators received bad press for midway which overlooked there early sucess when they had proper fighter escorts
jers59 1 year ago
Search Youtube for the song "The War Was In Color" by the band Carbon Leaf. It's about a grandfather explaining WWII to his grandson, and the video uses real WWII battle footage.
TheSanityInspector 3 years ago
Outstanding video documenting some very brave men; heroes all. Many don't realize how much these young men actually affected the battle. Thank you so much for sharing this.
tycobb9999 3 years ago
Waldron told his squadron they didn't have a great chance at returning. These young guys went anyway...when there was so much at stake for our country. What true courage. I wish there was a much better recounting of their sacrfice than the barely adequate "Midway" movie from 1975.
likepatsandGTOs 3 years ago 2
Too slow, no armor, poor armament,and lacking self-sealing fuel tanks these planes were a death trap in 1942. These very brave men are true heros in every sense of the word. I'm sure they knew that they might not return, but they went out anyway. God bless them all.
R686Mack 3 years ago 2
Not to mention no fighter escort. Those guys didn't stand a chance, and the only one who survived, George Gay, spent over 30 hours in the water before being picked up by a flying boat from Midway. He passed away in 1994 and was cremanted. His ashes were cast into the pacific near the spot where he and his squadron took off on their mission.
Hotshotter3000 3 years ago 2
Great footage of some very brave guys. I'm building a 1/32 model of a TBF-1C and would like to know if anyone has the crew names and Bu number and A/C number of any of Hornet's Midway TBFs. Am building a collection of Midway participants. Thanks
TBFnut 3 years ago
Wow, thank God for the National Archives. That's a type of thing we don't see enough of in the history shows out there now. Simply amazing, such confident, brave men.
DEP717 3 years ago
What if the TBDs had arrived after the SBDs, would they have been equally as effective?
romanbrough 4 years ago
I guess it's hard to say. The TBD's did okay in a coordinated attack at Coral Sea, but this was with overwhelming firepower against only one carrier, and even then their torps wouldn't explode.
dokaw 4 years ago
There are 2 intact TBD Devastators in the semi-shallow waters of Jaluit Lagoon in the Marshall Islands. Their crews ditched on Feb.1 1942 after becoming disoriented after a raid and running low on fuel. They became prisoners and survived the war. Hopefully the planes can be recovered soon.
oldcremona 4 years ago 2
I would sure like to see one restored...most TBD's after Midway alone were used for training firefighting crews.
Waistgunner39 2 years ago
I don't know how many TBFs went to Midway but 6 went out along with a number of Marine and Army bombers while marine fighters were being slaughtered.
5 TBFs went down while the 6th came back damaged with a wounded gunner and dead radioman/bombardier.
smilodino 4 years ago 2
Those Marines were equipped with the Brewster Buffalo, which was no match for the Zero.
TheSanityInspector 3 years ago
This is weird. I had no idea I had been here.
SanityInspector, you're mostly right. The Marines did have Buffaloes, about 15 or 16 of them, plus 8 Wildcats.
1 Buffalo and-I think-4 Wildcats returned, all badly shot up.
smilodino 3 years ago
There is a postscript to this.
Torpedo 8 was the first squadron to be assigned the TBF Avenger.
Hornet left Pearl Harbor before the planes arrived so they flew straight on to Midway.
smilodino 4 years ago 2
@smilodino VT8 had a detachment of personnel ashore in Hawaii, including the squadron executive officer, who were undergoing transition training to TBFs when the Hornet got orders to head out for Midway. It was decided later to ferry the avengers out to Midway independent of Hornet using these VT8 personnel.
VeeGlo 1 year ago
So awesome, thanks for posting, heard about the video but never saw. Those brave men paved the way for victory in the pacific. I would like to see the article in the Life magazine. Thank you for sharing that historical moment. I'm a big wwII buff, especially the pacific theater. I have a game called Battle stations Midway for the xbox 360 and playing that brings a little chill.
koolblue007 4 years ago 2
George Gay only Survivor...30 men...right down
Goldgun990 4 years ago 2
Thanks for the amazing generation who gave their lives for a better future for all.
Andre.
Brazil.
AndreNavarenho 4 years ago 3
Thanks for posting. Those were some great men who gave their lives for our country. I think everyone should view this.
badmedcine 4 years ago
I am a living historian and I put ensigns George Gays flight gear together. I stand net to a corsair at a WWII museum that volunteer in and I talk about midway and what happened. We don't have any dauntless dive bombers. We just bought a Catalina sea plane. They will land the plane and I will walk out. The soul survivor of torpedo 8. God bless these guys. Thanks!
pavel41 4 years ago 2
If I had your snail mail address would send
as a gift (if you will share with others interested) a pretty fair copy of the video ... full sized NTSC rather than YouTube quality. I'll also send a scanned version of the Life magazine article too. Cheers
n1014f 4 years ago
@pavel41 Wow.... NICE!!!
andres1963 2 months ago
Wow! I have been looking for this video for 30 years. I finally got it.
Thank you so much!
pavel41 4 years ago
You are welcome ... we must not forget such men ... cheers
n1014f 4 years ago