God and Karma: Batchelor Rejects 'Consolatory' Beliefs

[BlatzBeer]

Of course, if we dwell too much on the "truth" of reincarnation and karma, we miss the essential point of the Buddha's teachings. In the Tripitika, he is reported several times to have said (paraphrasing) "I teach one thing and one thing only: suffering and the cessation of suffering." The point of his living example was to make no more karma, and to go even beyond the stage of the anagamin, a "Never-Returner." Tathata has no qualities of karma or rebirth, and is timeless.

[squamish4244]

I don't find karma and reincarnation 'consolatory' in any way, but useful concepts for understanding the mechanics of reality. Karma at its most basic level simply means 'cause and effect' and reincarnation means that the causes and effects of our actions are carried over into other lifetimes and on a much broader and more complex scale than our current scientific understanding allows - although with the way quantum physics is going, that idea does not seem so outrageous.

[MzTracyxD]

Let me tell you one thing. You might have explain well but i'm sure you don't understand about religion. You have no wisdom and faith so you might graduate with PHD but you know nothing as well

[jaykulls]

Fundamental Buddhists take the idea of karma literally, not all Buddhists. The true reason the child was born like that is because the universe 'made' them like that. That's the truth, but how much more comfort does it really offer?

I believe the buddhist aproach would be, to look for and appreciate what having a child with a learning dissorder could teach me. And how much I could grow as a person on a path to enlightenment.

[lookatmepleasesir]

karma is not an explanation for why the child has a problem in the sense that a medical or genetic explanation is, and its not attempting to be. It's an attempt to explain why the child has the medical or genetic condition in the first place.

[anapanasati1970]

Check out "Yoga Nine Vipassana" on Facebook for articles, research, video clips, and teachings on vipassana, compassion, and other related topics.

[MrSudsawat]

He has a lot of doubt toward Buddhism..5555...Why don't you go meditate and reach high level like Vipassana yan 9 at least then you won't have doubt on Buddhism anymore..Seems like you are a non Buddhist ascetic..obviously...hopefully­, people who listen to his talk would have some brain and lucky enough to figure out whether or not he is real!!!

[MrSudsawat]

He is a non Buddhist ascetic...simple as that.

[cadmiumpureland]

I listened to some of his teaching on 4 noble truth & his views on the subject of "stream entry".

I would say all are his own misguided viewpoints of the true teaching. Views that are conjured up by the thinking mind (which seems rational), but has nothing to do with the wisdom/insight that the Buddha originally taught.

That's the problem of not studying & practising from a qualified master. He likes to think what Buddhism should be & not to be. And he think he knows it. Far from truth.

[hceggeberth]

@cadmiumpureland

Just a point of information: '75-79 Batchelor studied Tibetan Buddhist philosophy and doctrine under the guidance of Geshé Rabten at the Tibet Institute Rikon. He received full ordination as a monk.

From April 1981 to 1985 he moved to Songgwangsa Monastery in South Korea to train in Zen Buddhism under the guidance of Kusan Sunim. He "disrobed" in '85. That's 2 periods of extensive training as a monk in the both the Tibetan and Korean Zen traditions - under "qualified masters".

[MomoTheBellyDancer]

@hceggeberth

"That's 2 periods of extensive training as a monk in the both the Tibetan and Korean Zen traditions"

And that's two periods of seriously wasted time.

[gerontodon]

@cadmiumpureland

I agree, not that I'm sure what Buddha really meant- Following the theosophists & Alan Watts, I think that the 'no-self' may be an all-encompassing, non-quantifiable intelligence like the 'self' of hinduism, or *even* God. So most Buddhists would no doubt disagree with me. I just feel that Batchelor's take is too Western, & scientistic, & could amount to a clinging to *not* clinging. I definitely don't think he's got any consistent reason to exclude rebirth from Buddhism.

[grassfell]

@gerontodon I think that 'non-self' is the doctrine that fundamentally separates Buddhism from every other religion, even Dharmic ones like Hinduism & Jainism. Non-self is easy to conceptually understand, but when it's personally 'seen' and understood, it creates such a gulf with the soul-believing religions than any comparison with them is hard to attenuate.

[cadmiumpureland]

I have no problem with people not believing with anything if they choose to. But Batchelor's ideas & explanation of Buddhism are mostly one-sided, & to a certain degree, ignorant of the Buddha's teaching of "suffering"(dukkha). The sole purpose of teaching karma is not to console, nor to deaden your feeling for life's suffering, nor to impede you in your search for a solution. It's can only give you a wider perspective on life itself.

[ZiggyOsiris]

I'm shocked to see the amount of criticism in these comments. I have been intensely interested in Buddhism but, like him, I cannot bring myself to believe in reincarnation or anything of that sort. By doing this, mind you, both him and I are actually following the Buddha's teaching of believing nothing simply because you've been told that it's true.

[cadmiumpureland]

There will be more people like Batchelor who like to think of themselves as open minded, deny things that they couldn't understand, and yet can't provide any significant evidence or convincing explanation to support their viewpoint. Does he really explain anything?

[cadmiumpureland]

I think he is creating more confusion than ever. He has no right answer and he tries to justify himself as being open minded. Being open minded and yet, can't provide a valid explanation of the truth is at best "ignorant".

In my opinion, you don't explain any thing at all. All you are saying is you are open minded. Now everybody can say that; It's not difficult.

[cadmiumpureland]

Karma is not about consolation. It is about fairness as well as accountability; You reap what you sow. There is always a cause of a result. Now that is the basis for any scientific research.

Why does Batchelor think such an "explain all" idea is wrong? Doesn't science believe in such an approach in which you try to find the causes of certain effects?

[MomoTheBellyDancer]

@cadmiumpureland

"Karma is not about consolation. It is about fairness as well as accountability; You reap what you sow."

Alas, reality doesn't work that way. People can get away with very egregious behavior, as long as they don't get caught. At the same time, a lot of bad stuff happens to good people.

"Doesn't science believe in such an approach in which you try to find the causes of certain effects?"

Yes, but none of them have anything to do with karma or similar vapid notions.

[cadmiumpureland]

@MomoTheBellyDancer

Bad karma may not happen in present life, it may come in future life. Bachelor is holding the wrong view that rebirth doesn't make sense; If rebirth doesn't exist, then karma should not exist as well. U can do whatever bad deeds u like, there is no retribution whatsoever.

[MomoTheBellyDancer]

@cadmiumpureland

"Bad karma may not happen in present life, it may come in future life."

Unfortunately, this life is all you will ever get.

[cadmiumpureland]

@MomoTheBellyDancer

That's not the Buddhist's belief. You have got past lives & many more future lives to come. That's when karma comes into play; You don't want to create unhappy consequences for this present life & future lives.

If there is only one life, why would anyone do good for others? Even Christians believe in an after life in heaven for doing good & practising what the gospels teach.

[MomoTheBellyDancer]

@cadmiumpureland

"That's not the Buddhist's belief."

And as long as Buddhists don't show evidence for their claims, I have every right to disbelieve them.

"If there is only one life, why would anyone do good for others? "

What does being good have to do with the number of lives? In any case, is essential to the survival of human beings since it is what holds societies together.

[cadmiumpureland]

@MomoTheBellyDancer You don't have to believe in anything if you like.

But the Buddhist central teaching is based on the concept of "karma" & "rebirth". Just don't go around & tell people that you spreading the buddhist teaching by pronouncing the opposite concept like what Bachelor has done.

U are not Buddha,nor Bachelor is :)

[MomoTheBellyDancer]

@cadmiumpureland

"But the Buddhist central teaching is based on the concept of karma & rebirth."

And the Mickey Mouse movies are based on a mouse doing human-like stuff. Should I take those serious too then?

"Just don't go around & tell people that you spreading the buddhist teaching"

Where do I do that?

[grassfell]

@cadmiumpureland Buddhist texts themselves say Buddhism is about one thing and one thing only: the nature of suffering, and how to let go of suffering. Beliefs in concepts- which Buddhism teaches are empty (Mahayana) and nothing to do with a self anyway (Theravada)- such as karma and rebirth are irrelevant to Buddhists who are content with sticking with the one aim of Buddha's entire teaching.

[grassfell]

@cadmiumpureland If Buddhism is about doing good deeds for a happy rebirth, then Buddha's teachings seem to have all been in vain. When I read his central teachings, Buddhism is about seeing what suffering is and letting go of suffering. Once that's done, we've achieved what needed to be achieved. There's then no purpose or gain in being bad because there's nothing to gain anyway. One then spends their life helping others out of compassion.

[cadmiumpureland]

@grassfell It is just a fact that if you have not reached nirvana, you are going to be reborn again in future. So, knowing what kinds of deed that produce what kind of result is importrant. People are ignorant about what is good & bad.

[mikewilson108]

@cadmiumpureland : "It is just a fact" ???!!! Google "fact" and dwell on that koan until you get it.

[cadmiumpureland]

So, things that you don't understand are described as 'metaphysical'. It is the same as going back a few centuries and tell the people that we have televisions, radio, airoplanes........... and they will not believe you. Because they don't witness it. Much like what Batchelor is doing now. He can't see it, so he deny it.

Why does he assume that the Buddha was like him, incapable of knowing the deeper knowledge of the universe? And science has proven many things we have no knowledge of.

[cadmiumpureland]

Batchelor's rejection of karma as 'Consolatory' Beliefs is wrong. How can it be consolatory when karma talks about both the Good, Bad & Neutral result? It is kind of neutral.

[kusalaviro]

@planetdarwin Your first definition has nothing to do with Buddhism...

[squamish4244]

I am fascinated by the work of the late Dr. Ian Stevenson, who collected over 3,500 stories of young children who claimed to remember previous lives and subjected the stories to rigorous study. He said he turned to reincarnation research because he was dissatisfied with the failure of the dominant psychological models to explain certain personality traits. He also stated he was not imputing any value judgements into his research, merely cause and effect beyond our present understanding.

[nsugathadasa]

Well I do not know about past life karma, Nor do I know about God or his existance. But I am sure that karma works in this life. For Example, If I start a habit of stealing then I might get money quickly at the beginning but the probability of getting caught will increase and If i get caught, then I will loose credibility among people I interact and loose in the long run. That karma is so true as I have seen and experienced it.

[mcpencil]

@nsugathadasa

that has nothing to do with the mystical concept of karma though, that is just obvious cause and effect.

[nsugathadasa]

@mcpencil Exactly. Real buddhism does not have anything mystical about it. checkout anitta, anata, dukka, 4 noble truths, kalami sutta.

[mcpencil]

@nsugathadasa

well, I would argue that it does... since its highly associated with mystical experiences and such.

[thesparitan]

lighting my friends, this was lighting. Without being there is answers. I think there is something to this because its a nothing. We must be aware of our ignorance to be aware of what we cannot know is right.

[junkvideoviewer]

Theory of Karma is not a 'consolatory' explanation. The claim that "it can neither be proved nor disproved" is not acceptable, because Buddha says he has knowledge of previous births. Not only that, many great monks also said that all you have to do is to try hard enough to 'remember' (just like you have forgotten "most" details of your present life, not to be remembered until you consciously try, you forgotten previous births' details). Read Jataka stories, not just about Dukkha.

[BuddhismJodoShinshu]

Let's suppose a Buddhist couple gives birth to a child with learning difficulties. Whatever happens to the child is ultimately the result of the child's own karma.

But the couple, as buddhists, needs to follow the Principle of Cause and Effect and do anything possible to make the child happy.

[BuddhismJodoShinshu]

@BuddhismJodoShinshu The Principle of Cause and Effect says "good cause, good effect", if you do good deeds you will receive good results, if you give happiness you will receive happiness, the only to receive happiness is by giving happiness.

[TheCory75]

I recently read his book "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist" and thought it was really good. I have a tendency of taking a more anti-theism view, but find his approach to the topic much less aggressive and narrow minded, and is therefore more useful/appropriate.

[humanist7117]

Buddhism as a philosophy may be great but as It is practiced by the ordinary person is filled with minor gods, spirits and superstitions. Buddhism has the common problem in that people will take from it what personally satisfie.s them. Won't burden their brains with deep thought or rationality.

[jesserai]

@humanist7117

"Buddhism has the common problem in that people will take from it what personally satisfie.s them. Won't burden their brains with deep thought or rationality."

The 'ordinary' atheist acts the same way.

[alanoasiss]

God is not a theory its a supposition. Its not even a hipotesis.

[sabotoged]

If karma is valid, then what about those born with autism or other severe mental disability?

What about victims of child abuse, or other forms of abuse? I'm not talking about what happens to their attackers, I mean what about what happens to them, and why did it happen? Karma? -Bullshit.

[fractalbuddha]

This guy is right on.

Karma is simply cause and effect, though its not simple at all. If you steal money, you get money. If A, then B. However, there are a number of other consequences. For one, the financial and psychological damage to your victim; plus secondary effects through that person. Also, psychological damage to yourself as you have now redefined yourself as an aggressor. If you do believe in a spirit or reincarnation (I dont), its logically sound to believe in consequences there.

[aSheeple]

its not about consolation, its about being objective and finding the truth.

[jerrymacoris]

Outstanding video to be sure. I agree whole-heartedly with all the statements that Mr. Batchelor makes, except that I know very little of "the Buddha".

[Swamoez0rs]

Great video and a vision I can truly relate to.

However, I try not to get into these kind of conversations/topics most of the time. Not sure why...

[pedrogregorio]

Exactly what i was thinking.  Religion simply eases the human mind by answering everything that is unanswered otherwise.

[flamered24]

Mayan Proverb I Am You.; Christian Tenet Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You; Karma What you Give You Get; Wiccan What Good You Do Returns Threefold What Bad You Do the same.

[SuperWilyum]

I agree with planetdarwin. You are the world! When you die, you and the world and the universe cease to exist, from your own perspective!

[EloquentiaSerpentis]

Fuck right.

[anikinippon]

That's exactly why I'm not a buddhist anymore.

[yougiberishtube]

5 stars

[acr08807]

@planetdarwin If you are you're foot, you are a piece of shit, too. So really, stop flushing, you're just flushing yourself.

[planetdarwin]

@acr08807 - Yes, shit is a part of "me". What's your point?

[planetdarwin]

Eastern "religions" made a fad rise in the 60's and 70's but they were tinted with the same kind of religious thinking we see in Christianity, Islam, etc. More dogma and mysticism.

I'm happy to see that Buddhism and Taoism seem to be shuffling onto the public stage once again but this time, with some of their original atheist and naturalistic, science-based hue. They're coming back but this time, they're ditching the dogma.

[Redfingers]

Notably, Christians do not know that God exists. No argument ever put forward has been sufficient. But notably, they are arguments. They are not contingent upon the existence of God, this is an asinine presumption on part of theists, an attempt to parse all human thoughts into "worldviews" instead of allowing for properly basic assumptions and allowing logical systems to stem from them....

God cannot be demonstrated apart from logic, and God cannot be demonstrated within any logical system.

[Bobbiethejean]

Religion looks an awful lot to me like a bunch of grownass motherfuckers playing makebelieve. It's magical child-think and I can't even begin to fathom why people still believe such inanity in this modern age.

[tyrannicoystercult]

@Bobbiethejean people respond well to direct simple explanations of things, its indulging in the pleasure of simplicity which is only broken by complexity. I think we need more complexity in schools starting from an early age, which means teachers who actually know a lot of science and world history to stimulate minds to require complex truth before giving respect, breaking the cycle of simplicity.

dogmatic marxists say everything bad is done by capital.

neo-conservatives say its by government.

[SourceCode2006]

Less ghost stories, more facts. Thank you come again.

[Canlander7]

In Buddhism they have several gods, some idols, some made up in the imagination. With Christianity you have one God, the Creator. This is the worldview that says we live in a real world. Unlike Buddhism that originated from the Hindu practice that the world is an illusion, you can make up your own gods and reality. Buddhism also says pain is a figment of your imagination, whereas Christianity says that the world was created and nothing is voodoo to explore. You have a real world to observe.

[Redfingers]

In Christianity, you have devils, angels, a virgin, a man who performs miracles, and a "holy spirit."

This man is an atheist Buddhist.

[McPrfctday]

Those things exist in many religions throughout history.

[Canlander7]

Christians accept that we don't know everything. But we can know something about the world, and our God because we have a real world created by a Real God.

Man in reality is made in the image of God and has real humanness. In the Judeo-Christian world view we have freedom.

Certainly claiming to know the truth, Christians are not claiming to possess all knowledge; yet the mere fact that we do not know everything does not mean we do not know anything.

[Redfingers]

Christians do not know anything as a result of their Christianity. They know anything in spite of it....because of the Greeks, who brought us deduction, and because of Francis Bacon, who brought us induction, and the scientific method which crystallized it.

In case you're one of those fucking presupper Christians.

The existence of God is not an axiom, you asshole. You don't see "existence of God" in mathematics textbooks. Why? Because the entire logical system can be drawn independent of it.

[fantasticalNINJA]

how did ur god create the world....seven days...right...

[tommyk77]

Christianity is far cruder than buddhism

[Redfingers]

I agree with Batchelor and I'm pleased to hear this from a Buddhist scholar.

[jdpower123456]

Reality is far better than god, reality I can manipulate god is obsolete when you apply commonsense to every day life.

[adp023]

People that preach religion in every day life is selling something. Individuals that apply religion or spiritual beliefs to their every day lives and keep it to themselves are using religion the way it is supposed be used. All religions need to stay away from politics.

[Canlander7]

We're pleading with you! With extreme earnestness to consider the gospel message. The message is telling everyone to stop being religious and to run to the Saviour. It's not an idea. It's an earnest cry to people. We want everyone to know the good news! Please read Luke chapter 15.

okay I will not bother you anymore. just please consider my plea.

[Redfingers]

Plead away, motherfucker. It's all you assholes have.

It's not very convincing.

[planetdarwin]

lol...... "stop being religious" but..... just read a bunch of scriptures and believe in an invisible savior and spread the news......haha if that's not being "religious" then I don't know what is

[adp023]

See what I mean!!! LOL

In my opinion, zealots for god and zealots against god need to come together and have an all-out cage death match!!! lol

[terpis]

The dookie of the world can certainly be hard to deal with.

[thisisallidobitch7]

great clip

[AntiPr0ph3t]

Why does this guy think he knows what a christian or a buddhist couple would say? He doesn't really know what they would say, he's just making assumptions.

[Shalek]

Isn't that what it would boil down to? Unless they don't take their religion into consideration. Shit happens?

Christian: It's the will of god.

Buddhist: It's karma.

[sashex]

@AntiPr0ph3t

How is an understanding based on religious dogma an assumption ?

[kevintype]

@AntiPr0ph3t - He's drawing on a solid historical record of what many, many pre-modern Christian and Buddhists parents have, in fact, actually said, when trying to explain why they had given birth to children with congenital health problems and other misfortunes.

[666norton420]

Why should i be listening to this man, he can't even grow his own hair!

lol

sorry, it just popped into my head.

gotta love the simpsons.

and yes, the god hypothesis sucks balls.

;d