I have heard that the best person who goes to hell will get it one trillion times worse than all of the suffering ever experienced on earth combined. The best person doesn't deserve that and the worst person doesn't deserve that either. So the doctrine of hell is overkill for what we average people do in a lifetime. Maybe our experience should be as good or as bad as we were. We don't deverve it that badly and a god who inflicts that much suffering on people is The Ultimate Monster!!!!
Good fun but she is right and he believes he is right. No ponit. Just fun. I think she is happy to believe that their is no damnation waiting her while he is happy to spend his time on earth talking about god, jesus and heaven for ever.
This guy won't give a straight answer to any question she asks. Shiftlessly changing the subject, asking her to define her terms and explain her meanings and never answered her questions. Yet another reason people are waking up to the mythology of religious belief.
@CaptainMacNasty Why is it wrong for her to define her terms? If your gonna be in opposition to something, at least have a proper understanding of what you oppose. Frank asked very legitimate questions.
@jamaicanification Frank shifted scope to evade the very simple question it was directed at his beliefs not hers, going to hell for not believing. It wasn't until she was starting to walk away that he finally almost answered her question, therefore avoiding the point she was originally probably going to make. I'm assuming it would of been doesn't it seem immoral to punish someone infinitely for something so petty while possibly rewarding immoral people who where saved b4 death
@robvlob read my other comments to the previous guy on this question. First, who are Atheists to say what is moral or immoral when on an Atheistic world view(which is strictly naturalistic) when it is all relative. Things like murder, rape and torture are no less immoral for humans than they are for a lion that tears its prey to shreds, a herd of hornets that torture their victims to death, or a male shark that forcefully copulates(continued)
@robvlob with its mate. Second, what Frank was trying to do was clear up misconceptions of the view of Hell that is out there. Hell is separation from God, its just that the New Testament uses pictoral descriptions in order to describe hell. Some depictions use fire or 'the lake of fire', while others describe hell as a place of perpetual darkness. Either way, the descriptions make clear Hell is separation from God(continued)
@robvlob Thirdly, to answer the question directly if someone is going to hell, it is a well known fact that Christian theology teaches that salvations comes through Christ. The interesting thing is that if hell is separation from God, and many Atheists would never want to worship God even if he were real, my question would be why is it immoral for God to give beings the choice to separate from himself???
@jamaicanification The very basis of the question is does one deserve any kind of punishment for simply not being convinced of this so called loving god, apologists try to muddy the question to not answer it which you have done. Regardless of what you twist an atheists sense of morality into the basis of the question is only about punishment for disbelief the good part can be loosely based on any objective or subjective sense of what good is, you choose.
When put in front of a blind person, take your time. Breath. Unless you're really talented (you, the reader are not ...), he will turn the debate toward one petty idea and you might not see it quickly enough and you'll just follow him toward nowhere.
Believe it or not.. I rather try n seek God n slim my chances at torture forever than live lik a party animal n hav so called "fun" here on earth.. Wit out faith ur serving a useless god but wit faith we serve a all mighty powerful redeemer.. There is a reason why its hard to go against ur flesh, worldy thoughts will keep u worldly.. If u dont lik wat he preaches than fine.. But until u hav actually tried to seek God, n not b readin books, but u hav actually tried to prayed n asked God to feel
@JPrelude23 so u'll try to seek god to slim ur chances of eternal torture.Looks like childhood brainwashing is working great.Which god will u try to seek,because there are millions of them.Looks like the god concept is a casino
(i'm taking a wild guess here but i'm guessing u'll try to seek out the god that's already established in ur country's culture already.am I right or am I right?)
@JPrelude23 - You would conclude that people have 'never tried' prayer or 'searched for god' before and that is why they came to the conclusion of atheism? You are sorely mistaken. If god talks to you, what does he say? Because I remember prayer, it was just talking to myself, feeling just as stupid as before. Are you going to tell me I didn't pray right? People don't like your theology because it seems to pull a nice warm fuzzy blanket of delusion over peoples eyes,
I liked the sincerity of the girl - her questions and statements. I hope she reads these comments occasionally. To get an idea of what hell is like, watch a series of 9 videos that interviewed 5 men who experienced it. They did not know each other so there could be no collaboration. Did they lie? I know they didn't but you have to decide for yourself. God loves you and wants you with Him. Now the ball is in your court. For videos, Search UTube for> TO HELL AND BACK, RAWLINGS God bless you!
Boy did they get off topic. Will she go to hell? As a christian I would answer her that when her body dies her soul WILL go somewhere. Either to heaven or to hell. God will make that decision, not me young lady. Have a nice day, next?
This atheist chick is pwning this guy because he's waffling on what he really believes, or at least what he should believe if he's a Christian. This sort of prideful philosophical rhetoric is a far cry from accurately representing what the bible actually teaches. The fact is, men don't believe the gospel because they "considered all these truths on a case by case basis", they believe because God gave them faith in the new birth (I John 5:1, Gal 5:22).
The girl is right about this much - you cannot prove that God exists through rational arguments. It is therefore pointless to try and argue people into theism. Paul said that "all men have not faith" (II Thes 3:2) and that faith is the gift of God (Phil 1:29). If God has not given someone faith, all the philosophy, book reading, and preaching in the world will never get them to believe, indeed it cannot (II Cor 2:11-14).
@theearstohear I bet we are on opposite ends of the theological spectrum regarding a lot of stuff, but I agree with everything you wrote in this particular post. Listening to skeptics and apologists argue is often amusing (or sometimes annoying), because they think they are bitter enemies who have nothing in common, when in fact they are both, in almost all cases, evidentialists and share many of the same presuppositions. God doesn't need our apologies.
@NeoVictorianX - Often times, neither side is willing to ADMIT their unprovable presuppositions. The atheist denies his presuppositions of logic and math; the Christian his presupposition of God and biblical truth. At times both dwell in the false illusion of "pure observation." Even if that were true they would still be facing the insurmountable problem that no one can make ALL observations and so anything based on observation is relegated to theory. Thanks for your thoughts.
" I don't like prophecies because just about anyone can do that" unfounded stance towards the accuracy of the bible prophecies. I keep hoping you will ask me for proof;) If you don't want to look at it ok, but don't say the lvoe message of the bible is the only thing we can take away from it. I dont think God is for war and i don't know how you came to that assumption of me.
This student asked a valid question that deserved an answer. By asking her what she meant by "being a good person" Turek effectively turned himself into the questioner and put her on the defensive. When an experienced debater does that, the questioner should say: "I asked a straightforward question that is capable of being answered. Please answer it." If the speaker responds in a similar manner, say again: "I asked ..." If necessary, repeat the question. Stand your ground and remain silent.
He doesn't want to answer because he, and everyone else knows that the concept of hell is absurd, and fundamentally immoral. Christians, not all of them, but many, dance around this issue, because deep down they know it's evil to torture anyone forever.
@brajamtho757 In the city were I live there is a company called MarketLink. They are a telemarketing company. On the front door of their office there is white lettering. It reads, "NO SOLICITING." Ha ha.... it is a little funny... and pathetic. If I were God I would subject people who run a telemarketing company with a no soliciting sign on its front door to everlasting torture. I know I sound like I am trying to be cute... but I am making a point about the vile nature of humans.
Dude on stage is full of shit. What makes his religion right ? when there's countless of other religions in the world. Like, he needs to pull his head out of his ass
@Enrique2NZ Scientific knowledge is limited to phenomenon occurring in the phenomenal realm. If God exists, God is outside the phenomenal realm. It follows that science cannot possibly yield any information regarding the existence or the non-existence of God.
@Enrique2NZ Also, your belief that there is some type of relationship between a person's intelligence and the truthfulness of their beliefs is silly. There are a lot of atheists in this world who are a lot smarter than I am. And there are a lot of Christians in this world smarter than any of the atheists writing on this thread. Neither fact means anything. You must live a very sheltered life if you are not aware of this.
@1GodOnlyOne The Hindu gods provided "real" scientific evidence. So that means your god is wrong. Hindu gods are the true gods because there are proof. You are an atheist that don't believe in Hindu gods !
The atheist is desperate to shut down rational discussion on the topic because he knows, deep down, that there is ample scientific evidence for God's factual appearance and activities, and that there is none at all in favor of his belief in atheist Dogma.
That's why the atheist is so fond of silly phrases like "end of discussion," and "end of debate."
The debate is truly over, though -- the atheist lost.
Still, we Theists are not afraid, as the atheist is, to keep the discussion open.
@1GodOnlyOne Atheist dogma? Care to explain that one? I'm an atheist and very open to rational discussion. You stating that we are desperate to shut down rational discussion is purely a blanket statement deserving of ridicule.
I wonder why people who don't believe in God: (1) get so passionate about the whole debate and feel they need to escalate the exchange to include insults and anger - as some of the comments to this video have - (2) want to know (and care) about going to Hell?! If you are sure there is no God, then why does it matter to you?
@TheNomesjoy This has been answered already but here goes. If theist beliefs never made it past the individuals front door then I would give fuckall about them but when theists try to get their creationist idiocy taught in schools I object. When theists attempt to have legislation passed based on their idiocy I object. When people are willing to kill other people based on their idiotic religious beliefs which have no basis in reality then I object.
@KamekoBruns Yes, I guess history has a part here, but I don't often (if ever) see such an uproar about other religions, nor are people who are interested in debating it. And show me (if we are in fact talking Christianity, and not just Theism) a Christian group who goes around killing people.
Again I ask, why people so interested to know if they are going to Hell?
@TheNomesjoy For the first part, Christian fundamentalists have no problem killing abortion doctors. The KKK and racism is stepped in Christian dogma.
As for why atheists are interested in knowing if they are going to hell it has to do with honesty. If I'm a decent, compassionate and productive member of society I want to know if there are those who disregard that and will consider me as doomed to eternal damnation simply because I do not believe in their delusion.
@KamekoBruns Yes, there are self-proclaimed 'radical' Christian people who have done that, and probably will continue to. However, if you took a closer look at their lives, you would find that they aren't in fact Christians by how they're living, but mentally ill and often doing other illegal things. And the same for the KKK.....if you read the bible and how Jesus stood for grace and mercy above the law, you would see how those who are racist are going against the Christian faith.
But why would you care about what Christian's think of you, or of your fate? I don't care what people of other religions think of me?! I know according to many I'm 'deluded', 'dumb' and 'ignorant', but I believe what I believe. I wear it on my heart.
@TheNomesjoy Because of the prejudice against those without a religious belief, that's why. As soon as religion becomes a personal thing, then we'll shut up. Until then, and while governments create legislation based on religious beliefs, we will fight.
@timchilli I think upon closer look you'll find that there are much greater prejudices against those who do have faith. Both on an individual and wider level. I would have thought you'd want to 'fight' those of the (democratic - I'm assuming) government to represent your views.......I'm not sure how asking (and caring) if you're going to Hell would be necessary or logical in your quest to 'win the fight'?
@TheNomesjoy, nope - greater prejudice against non-believers (e.g. sexual orientation legislation, prohibition on stem cell research, religious intolerance statutes, blasphemy laws, etc.). The balance is heavily tipped in favour of those with a belief in an invisible dictator. Just look at the Republican candidates, ffs!
As for hell, I'm sure atheists raise it in discussions to show the illogical nature of your deity - why would he eternally punish those who exercise free-thinking?
@timchilli - That's exactly the point about hell, if god gave man a rational mind that has 'free will,' why eternally punish those that fail in that god's 'goodness test.' They were created with a skeptical mind and there is much to be skeptical of. God doesn't just show himself to everybody. Just people who lived thousands of years ago, or so they claim.
@timchilli I'm in Australia, and here, restrictions are increasing against most religions. (Christian) Schools are banning prayer, and not celebrating holidays like easter and sometimes christmas. School chaplins, counsellors and special needs workers are required not to say they have a faith - even if asked. True both our countries have been 'founded' on Christian values, and remnants of that history are probably still seen. But prejudice is on a greater scale socially.
@TheNomesjoy It's because the atheist knows damn well that God's apearance and activities are scientific facts, just like everyone else on the planet knows it. He's just in emotion-based denial.
@1GodOnlyOne, you're mistaken - the burden of proof lies with those who assert (i.e. believers). It is not for atheists to prove that god doesn't exist.
@timchilli If you don't assert the belief that God somehow doesn't exist, you're not atheist. You only dodge because you know damn well there is no proof for your silly belief.
If you are atheist, the burden of proof is yours.
God has already personally provided conclusive proof to mankind -- only the lower animal, the vegetable, the fungus, and the atheist lack the intelligence to grasp that ample scientific proof.
@timchilli You are stupider than the lower animal -- the discussion continues, despite your ignorance:
I have plenty of proof for God's factual appearance and activities, but you are too stupid to comprehend any of it. A small portion can be found on the left-hand column of my channel page, and even more is in my playlist entitled "PROOF OF GOD."
@1GodOnlyOne, I looked at your playlist and - entirely predictably - it's a pile of nonsense. Your "proof" amounts to Lane-Craig's empty rhetoric about causation and his tenuous grasp of physics. Nothing in your arsenal is of any scientific merit. You can postulate on moral objectivism, but if this is your primary weapon against reason, you're taking a pea-shooter into a nuclear war. Morals shift throughout time, but most are rooted in empathy - which was cultured in our primitive tribal groups.
@1GodOnlyOne, insults? That's not very christian of you. Surely you guys are better than ad hominem attacks? Also, where's this much-vaunted forgiveness you guys are supposed to dole out? I see neither evidence of god nor your christian "values".
Live your life as a slave, proud of your chains. Leave living to us rational free-thinkers.
@1GodOnlyOne You're the one asserting that god exists, so why don't you give us an example of this conclusive proof?
Atheists don't have the burden to disprove his existence. However, you, the one who believe his existence, and mention this to many people, are the one who has the burden of proving it.
@ultramatuxen If you don't assert the belief that God somehow doesn't exist, you're not atheist.
If you are atheist, then the burden of proof is yours.
There is a small sample of the ample scientific evidence for God's factual appearance and activities on the left-hand column of my channel page, and even more in my playlist entitled "PROOF OF GOD."
Conversely, there is no evidence whatsoever for your silly belief in atheist Dogma.
@1GodOnlyOne Dude, I asked for an evidence, not repetition of your previous comments.
Just answer my question, do you have a certifiable evidence for god's existence? you can write your answer and reply to my comment.
Atheists don't have a doctrine or dogma like religion, atheist is a position where we don't think that there is a god, and it's not necessary for one.
So, prove me wrong, tell me the proof of his existence.
@1GodOnlyOne - Ohh, you're one of those people who would misrepresent what scientists actually say about the universe. I think I've watched that nonsense video of yours as well. I laughed and laughed at your misunderstanding and lack of rational thought, truly amusing. I'm sure 'your god' appeared to you in a dream and 'that's how you know he exists,' but that 'evidence,' including the nonsense in your videos, is a dreamed up fabrication. Your logic stinks, you 'ought' to know it.
Look at that little skeptical nod of her head when she asks him how you distinguish between metaphor and no-metaphor in the Bible and he gives a shallow answer.
She's the right stuff -- I'd love to have her in a class of mine to work with.
I hate it when Christians think hell is real, and as if they are unified in this belief. You guys are heavily divided! Already more and more Christians don't believe in the existence of hell.
@dmanpic this sort of attitude at which you shove your religion down other people ain't gonna convince any1. You just further drive them away. If that's your goal, congrats, you have succeeded.
@Casshyr What's the definition of shoving? Are you reading the same comments I'm reading by all these atheists who are shoving their beliefs (in an insulting way I may add) on my page. Double standard.
@Brushles83 Its not reversing the blame. Its to point to the fact that WE ALL deserve Hell. Atheists/agnostics and the majority of humanity thinks they are "good people" but say that from a faulty perspective. It's God's standard that matters, not ours.
@Brushles83 That is exactly why the gospel is good news my friend. It is life-changing news to know that someone paid the penalty for what you deserved to give us life and reconcile us to God.
@dmanpic do you have any idea how crazy you look when you type idiotic rubbish like that. The christian teachings are not good, they are horrible (and evil). I'm very sorry you have been brainwashed to the point where you can't see that.
Turek, if you see this video and read these comments, just know that she kicked your ass on the basis of logic. She knew some of her biblical history, but if she knew even more, she would have had you begging her to stop making you look like a complete idiot
@michaelflorida56 Not only that, he also created you with a skeptic tendency that would put you at a greater risk of spending an eternity in hell than lets say... a gullible christian.
@michaelflorida56 did you not watch the video? Firs of all the descriptions in the Bible are metaphors of hell. Some mention fire, others mention utter darkness. Second, Heaven as Frank said is union with God. Hell is separation from God. So why is God such a bad guy if he allows you the choice of not being in his presence in the first place, if you dont want to?
@jamaicanification - because the choice is this, 'do whatever god says whenever he says to do it, how he says to do it OR YOU ARE COMMITTING SIN and deserve the fires of hell. And since we all deserve the fires of hell now, thank you adam and eve and the irrational god that couldn't forgive them or teach them the error of their ways, we have to bow and scrape and tell jesus how bad we are, how much we need him to'...do what exactly? save us from our own mistakes? no thank you
@UPplRSick wow. You simply have no understanding of Christian theology do you? All you can do is take down strawmen. All you've done is given a dumb downed, unintellectual version of What Christianity has historically preached. What you have to understand is that God, from the Christian perspective is what the philosophers have identified as the 'Supreme Good'. Now, Genesis 1:25-27 states that humans are made in his image. Therefore our greatest fulfillment is in(continued)
@UPplRSick divine unity with God, because of the fact that we are wired for God. If you separate yourself from God then all your doing is just putting your soul down a spiritually dead path, that leads to misery in the long term. Its just like how our bodies are wired to food. If you deny your body of food because you think you can live without food, thats your decision. Its a foolish one ultimately because the body needs food our else it could starve(continued)
@UPplRSick maybe die eventually. It is the same thing with God. You can choose to deny God, cause no one is stopping you, but there are ramifications for your decision in the long term. Every decision one makes in life has consequences, and i dont see how this is any different. Whats amusing is that Atheists complain that God's a 'celestial dictator' and yet when he gives you the choice of being separate from him, its a problem. Your just trying to have your cake and eat it too.....
@jamaicanification - wow, talk about glossing over my points as strawmen, which they are not, and then espousing theology from the bible as your ONLY supporting evidence for the existence for your god. The thing is, what you are doing is nothing more or less than me inventing my own version of god, and telling you that YOU are going to hell for not believing in the same GOD as me. You CAN NOT cite your holy book as its own self supporting evidence.
@UPplRSick Am, first of all, the topic has to do with the doctrine of hell. So why in the world can'ts i friggin use my theology and my Holy Book in order to properly explain that theology? Second, on an Atheistic world view concepts such as 'good' and 'evil' are just completely vacuous from a natural perspective. "Even if your theology is correct, which it is thankfully not, your god is still evil. Why you ask(continued)
@jamaicanification - First of, if you're going to argue the validity or truthfulness of the bible with your ONLY source of evidence being the bible implicitly, you will have to defend your entire theology including why the concept of hell isn't entirely evil. I've already explained how hell is NOT a choice. Rational people, who do exist, don't choose the worst possible scenario because it suits them, ya know? The problem is, IF hell does exists, and atheist are entirely wrong
@UPplRSick I only used the Bible in order to try and explain the doctrine of Hell. I used it in order to clear up the notion that Hell is just someone burning up in flames. I wasn't arguing whether the Bible was true. Second, again you keep using words like "evil" when your world view thinks that notions such as 'good' and 'evil' are illusory at best, delusional at worst because everything is relative. So stop make these moral judgements(continued)
@jamaicanification - Right well, so I know why you used the bible to explain Hell, it is because it is the only place you'll find a description of it. You are agruing if the Bible is true, and if the bible is true, then Hell is true. I use words like 'evil' because I am placing myself inside of your world view, trying to live in your shows, as I have before in my life. Term's like good and evil can be looked at subjectively by an atheist, or objectively. More...
@UPplRSick the basis for objective morality despite subjective interpretations. "Everyone claims they know the truth because god told them, and that because they can conceive of a being a goodness it must be true". In terms the implications of that truth if God existed, sure it can be subjective. I fully grant that. I even fully grant that the way christians interpret Christian theology can be subjective(continued)
@UPplRSick but there is a difference between the objective truth of something, and its subjective implications. For instance, lets say that we were able to show indisputable evidence that there was life out there in the universe, other than our own. Objectively speaking, yes there would be life. But the implications of such a discovery is subjective and open to interpretation. No different when it comes to the issue of God and morality
@UPplRSick when your world view gives you no basis to determine whether something is objectively evil or not. Second, i dont care what you feel or dont feel. You keep bringing feelings into this. Im saying if God existed, he gives you a choice as to whether you want to be in union with him or not. Also, you are defining choice based on your own subjective, personal criteria. I really dont see why you as an atheist have a problem(continued)
@UPplRSick with God allowing you the decision not to be in union with him seeing as though you think he's some celestial tyrant anyways. Also, God is not my subjective concept of Goodness. Because God is the greatest conceivable thing that can possibly be conceived of, as Thomas Aquinas explains in his 3rd proof, the argument from degree, goodness itself emanates from him, because all that is in the world that is(continued)
@UPplRSick good is just a reflection of his divine nature. Second, so what if the flood story is mentioned in other myths and legends? I wasn't even arguing for the truth of the Bible, but since you brought it up, what does that have anything to do with whether God exist or not? Yes, i totally agree that if you read stories like the Epic of Gilgamesh, you will find a similar story. That is because the people in that region(continued)
@UPplRSick had a collective consciousness when it came to the stories and oral traditions that where passed down, some of which may be based on real events. Im not taking a closeminded position. I recognize the influence of that the prevailing culture at the time had on the Bible. Im asking you so what? It doesn't bother me one bit. I can accept that and still believe in God, the Bible and still be a Christian(continued)
@UPplRSick and here's the thing that you have to understand as well. We have free will, but free will is not absolute. There has to be a set of preconditions that regulate free will, other wise their would be total chaos and anarchy. Lets use the example of a sovereign, democratic state that has laws. In such as state, presumably people are given fundamental rights and freedoms. But with freedom comes responsibility, and when you abuse your freedom, there are consequences(continued)
@UPplRSick and the consequences are metted out by the laws and rules of a society which is enforced with the threat of coercion by the state. If everyone had the freedom to do absolutely everything their desires lead them to, their would be total anarchy and no consequences for certain actions. Why should it be different with God's divine law? In fact, from a theological perspective its because humans are in rebellion against(continued)
@UPplRSick God's divine standards why we believe there is so much conflict and war within humanity, because human beings are driven by their own personal conflicting desires instead of ordering their wills to God. Second, who says their is limited information? As i have pointed out consistently, God's existence is revealed to us not only through the fact that his nature(being the greatest conceivable thing that can possibly be conceived of)(continued)
@jamaicanification - so, morality is subjective between person to person, including between religious doctrines. Everyone claims 'they know the truth' because 'god told them' and that 'because they can conceive of a being a goodness it must be true.' Doesn't matter, your view is subjective on whether the true god gave you the right theology to believe, which puts it on the playing field of the atheist who can also conceive of goodness, surprise surprise.
@jamaicanification - However, when you want to measure morality in an objective sense, you have to really step back and analyze the big picture and how a particular behavior, if carried out repeatedly, will affect all life forms in many situations. For example. hunting deer is morally o.k. hunting deer to extinction is not. Individuals are allowed to be subjectively biased to their own survival. But what is truly objective, is that with any action, there is always a balance
@UPplRSick "However when you want to measure morality in an objective sense, you have to really step back and analyze the big picture and how a particular behaviour, if carried out repeatedly will affect all forms in many situations". Am, sure. I dont disagree with that. And, assuming that God exist, wouldn't he be able to do that better than anyone? No human being and truly fulfill that criteria because we always look at past event through interpretations(continued)
@UPplRSick certain moral attitudes that might have been acceptable 1000 years ago may be unacceptable today, and certain attitudes that we have today may be unacceptable in another 1000 years. So that shows that we look at things purely through a subjective lense. "There is always a point with ANY action that if you tip the balance, take something too far, you end up hurting yourself or other people. I think that point , wherever it is, is the objective point when(continued)
@UPplRSick we look at morality". And who is going to be the one who determines when something has gone "too far"?Hitler for instance slaughered 6 million jews and there was no one to tell him that he had gone "too far". In fact, on an atheistic world view, seeing as though morality is subjective, Hitler could well have made the argument that he didn't go far enough. Who's to say he's wrong?(continued)
@jamaicanification - So your god is the celestrial Hitler, for whatever doesn't match up with God's morality get's thrown into Hell/Gas Chamber. If you don't agree, you die, because human death is meaningless to your god. He doesn't care about it. This world is 'an illusion, a testing ground, and not the true reality.' Your body is the property of god, and so is your soul. The only choice you have is whether you want to bend the knee, which is no choice at all.
@UPplRSick Your an idiot. I already explained to you that people send themselves to hell. Because Hell is to not be in the presence of God. It is separation from God. I dont see how separation from God is like a gas chamber. Its because we are wired to God that, when one separates himself from his divine presence it causes anguish and torment. Its like how we are wired to food. If your an idiot not to have any food what soever, then you cause yourself to starve(continued)
@jamaicanification - If your 'gods morality' is the 'objective' morality because god is the final judgement, I would still reject it as being hypocritically insane. There is no objectivity there, there is just a particular god choosing which parts of his creation he likes more than another. Your morality is an entirely closed system revolving around your imperfect view of what 'goodness' is, and henceforth god.
@jamaicanification - An atheist can say Hitler was wrong/bad/evil on many levels on which I'm sure even Hitler would agree. All I could say to Hitler is, 'Ok Hitler, you have your world view and the power to carry it out, until you don't. If your morality is based on how much power you have, it is no morality at all. In which case, the USA was morally superior to the Nazi's because we were more powerful. If might makes right, it's easy to show how one can be wrong.'
@UPplRSick But who are you to tell hitler that his morality can't be based on power? Again, on atheism the way one interprets morality is purely subjective. Your just imposing your moral presuppositions on hitler. But since everything is relative, why is that view any more valid than Hitler's?
@jamaicanification - Furthermore, the people who he ordered kill could say he is bad/evil, objectively from their standpoint of experiences. Combine those objective experiences with similar experiences and it's easy to tell that a racial holocaust can not be a sustained practice if humanity is to survive. It is easy to extrapolate out that while Hitler and friends were suffering from a mass delusion whose world view could not be tolerated. Don't make me do it.
@UPplRSick Just because the people who say he was evil because he killed them, doesn't mean he was evil. Again, on Atheism its all relative. The Nazi's could argue that the allies where evil for attack many of their soldiers and country men and killing millions of them. The Taliban could argue that american soldiers killing their soldiers is and evil act because their experience says so. Who's to say they are wrong?
@UPplRSick So again, we're back to the issue of subjectivity, where anyone can make up their own moral system, and since everything is relative, no one can really tell you whether your moral frame work is right or wrong
@jamaicanification - there is always a point with ANY action that if you tip the balance, take something too far, you end up hurting yourself or other people. I think that point, wherever it is, is the objective point when we look at morality. When do your actions start hurting other people? And that's great, because we have laws in place that attempt to find those points. Some societies don't have those laws, how can you objectively say they are 'bad/evil.'
@jamaicanification - well great question, but I think the answer to that questions lies in how successful a society that chooses to behave in a particularly odious manner survives. If you have people in society working for the benefit of society, society thrives. If you have people running the show and exploiting everyone else to an extreme, yeah those societies survive for some time, but not that long. There is good evidence for that I think. more
@jamaicanification - how can a society, or humanity for that matter, say they did good when most or all of the people are dead because of some insane societal belief? So, there is some objectivity in that. If the consequences of a person's actions are like that of shooting yourself in the foot/head, how does that same person say those actions are good? So even in individual subjective morality, you can still find objective truths that everyone can relate to. more
@jamaicanification - so we don't need god to tell us what is right or wrong, we can see it, or we can be blind to it but the evidence is still there. Consequences for 'bad' or 'evil' actions tend to have a way of catching up to most people. In which case, that person will know, very objectively, why they made a poor choice. Or maybe they get away it, it happens. But that fact is no more or less true with a picture of god. You just think they'll suffer later.
@jamaicanification - In fact, you think many, many people will suffer in Hell. And really, the bible states that you are not different from those people, except for the fact that you bought this particular theology and not some other. Do you think you would be a christian if 'you' were born in India? Probabilities say no, but you would claim that 'how could I be born in India?' But that's just it, your identity and beliefs are largely shaped by where you grew up, globally.
@UPplRSick but through the fact that creation points to God. As i pointed out, the fact that human nature is wired to God or the divine gives weight to the notion of the divine, just as how humans being wired to food for sustenance proves that food exists. Also, you say god hasn't "pointed me to a particularly correct theology". Do you even know what the definition of theology is in the first place? It is the study of God. So your saying that because you personally think(continued)
@jamaicanification - 'the fact that creation points to god.' that is no fact. Stop misrepresenting scientists. Scientists who do actual research about the way the universe works without resorting to their 'holy book' for the answers. Hell, the people of biblical times thought the world was flat. You think god would have revealed that fact to his people. That's not what God says about the world, God thinks it's flat too, it's in the bible. And yes I've seen the quotes. MOre
@UPplRSick First of, i never misrepresented what Scientists say, because the area of Science does not get into theological issues. Second "people in Biblical times thought the world was flat"......annnnd???? What does that have to do with whether God exist and we should be subject to his moral law? Plus, many of those Scientists that you like to hold up, happen to be religious as well. Just take a look for instance at(continued)
@jamaicanification - First of, you do misrepresent what science says about the universe IF you would claim that evolution didn't happen, dinosaurs existed with man, and that the big bang need a 'divine' creator. That would be a misrepresentation of science. And I believe, from a 'Christian' perspective, Christians won't have to believe any of it because the bible gives them all the answer they need about how the earth was created. If you take the bible to be gods word, that is
@UPplRSick ............................................-_-. Tell me when did i say Evolution never happened? When did i say dinosaurs existed with man? When did i say any of that? Believing in a God does not mean you have to reject any of these. And its ironic that you bring up the Big Bang, seeing as though it was a Roman Catholic Priest by the name of Father George Lemaitre who discovered the Big Bang(continued)
@jamaicanification - People from biblical times, evidenced by their writing, thought the world was flat. The creators of the Jewish mythology had a very human perspective on what 'god said' about the earth, how the earth was formed, what it might look like 'four corners' . You would think that when god told these people about what the earth looked like, he might not have viewed the earth as a flat map. If your god doesn't exist, what moral law could he give?
@UPplRSick Second, the Bible is written under Biblical inspiration. So the people of that time may have believed the Earth was flat. Has no bearing on the theological message that the Bible is trying to present. When i read the Bible im not look for 21st century cosmology, or Einsteins theory of relativity. Thats utter nonsense. Im looking for a theological and moral message that guides my daily life(continued)
@UPplRSick So lets clear things up so you dont continuously misrepresent me or most Christians. I believe the Earth is 4.5 billion years old. I believe the universe is 13.7 billion years old. Its possible there are other universes out there according to M-theory. Has no damn relevance on my faith in God. None at all. And most Christians world wide recognize this(continued)
@UPplRSick Francis Collins, the head of the human genome project who is also a evangelical Christian. Or Ken Miller, evolutionary biologist who is a Catholic. Or John Polkinghorne, eminent physicist and Anglican priest. Also "So your god understands less about the universe than scientist do". Who said that he does? Your just making an assertion right there and im not sure if i should even take that seriously or not. Also, ho are my points not worth refuting?(continued)
@jamaicanification - As far as Francis Collins, and other 'religious' scientists, are concerned, so what? They would never admit that any of their scientific discoveries required 'Intelligent Design'' by the Christian god or they risque having their views not be taken seriously. They can hold an opinion about there being a god who controls the universe, but even a scientist who is a christian, can not claim the world is flat, like your god thinks it is.
@UPplRSick your the one who keeps repeating the same internet- atheists -that- chill- on the -youtube -comment- section all the time talking points. "So i know wha you used the bible to explain hell, is is because it is the only place you'll find a description of it. Your arguing that if the Bible is true, then hell is true". No exactly what the original argument was about. The original argument i was addressing was is the concept of hell evil, and what(continued)
@UPplRSick hell actually is. Im trying to clear away the misconceptions about hell, and expose the hypocrisy of many atheists who say God is a 'celestial dictator' on the one hand, but then on the other moan and complain when he gives you the choice not to be in is presence. "morality is subjective between person to person, including between religious doctrines". In how it is interpreted, yes. But if hypothetically there was a God then you would have(continued)
@jamaicanification - So lets talk about hell, and the implications of it. Here you admitted that not even Thomas Aquinas could 'know god's nature.' Ok, but to be next to God, you have to be EXACTLY like god's nature, or he rejects you. So basically, Hell is the refuse bin for god's unholy creations. For whatever reason, these souls do not measure up to god's standard and he can have no forgiveness for them. However, since the time of A&E, we've all been unholy creations.
@jamaicanification - you can not say I am a holy creation, if I am born into sin, and can not help myself, according to god and experience, humans make mistakes, more or less because we have imperfect knowledge. So god has all the knowledge, as soon as we have some knowledge, 'thank you tree of knowledge,' god then choose to compare his creation, man/woman with his holy self. When god sees what A&E have done, he sets death upon all his creations.
@jamaicanification - In your christian world view, humans are creatures made with imperfect knowledge, punished for wanting to know more, punished for making mistakes, and punished eternally for it. Apparently, the only way for the OT people to 'atone' for being sinners was animal blood sacrifice, because to god killing off useful animals serves a purpose. Then Jesus came, and was the 'final' blood sacrifice, hurray for humanity. Still though, humans are imperfect creatures.
@jamaicanification - And since we are imperfect creatures with imperfect knowledge, god that it would be best to punish humanity further by giving imperfect information about his 'wants and desires' because how is anyone supposed to know that the bible is the 'holy book' that stands out amongst all others. Other religions base their 'holy books' on 'miracles,' same as the bible. How is one supposed to know? God doesn't care, and if you fail to reason through, you go to hell.
@jamaicanification - In fact, I believe I've read that god purposefully 'closes the hearts of men' so that they CAN NOT believe what 'gods prophets' are telling them. Or so the bible claims. Anyway, the point is, if the biblical theology is true, people still do not choose hell, or choose to be apart from god, like many Christian's claim. Nor are blood sacrifices a worthy atonement for wrong doing. You can't kill some animal or someone to make another person 'pure' again.
@UPplRSick God closes mens hearts because their hearts where already closed to begin with. And you really dont understand the old testament sacrificial system. The lamb itself did not take away the sin, but it was symbolic. Because they would sacrifice the lamb, and then enter into communal prayer to atone for their sins. You really need to stop mischaracterizing things
@jamaicanification - And it is exactly because your god is so 'mysterious' that no one knows what the hell he 'really wants' and people who 'claim to know what god wants' ALWAYS GET IT WRONG. It is unreasonable that your god would ETERNALLY PUNISH PEOPLE for not knowing what the hell god wants from them. It turns your god into some repulsive force of 'apparent goodness,' apart from being actual goodness. Your god kills instead of teaches, as evidenced by the O.T.
I have heard that the best person who goes to hell will get it one trillion times worse than all of the suffering ever experienced on earth combined. The best person doesn't deserve that and the worst person doesn't deserve that either. So the doctrine of hell is overkill for what we average people do in a lifetime. Maybe our experience should be as good or as bad as we were. We don't deverve it that badly and a god who inflicts that much suffering on people is The Ultimate Monster!!!!
LifeIsABigPuzzle 1 hour ago
religion poisons everything!
I have no doubt that turek is a good person but he couldnt even bring himself to say ' no young lady, you will not go to hell'.
SuperDriver85 1 hour ago
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Oh man, no matter what logic you throw at the chrisians, they know how to talk circles.
carrboygirl 5 hours ago
Oh man, no matter what logic you throw at the chrisians, they know how to talk circles.
carrboygirl 5 hours ago
Turek is an idiot. run away from questions by using unconfirmed "facts" and silly questions.
wigglesworth19 5 hours ago
Wow, Turek is one mental cunt.
1878EFC2008 8 hours ago
Oh , no such comment here so far ?
Well , here goes :
Fuck Turek !!
NexisFilms 9 hours ago
He could just have said: "Yes."
Gorteenminogue 12 hours ago
this is stupid, if the student should asked about some tribal girl in africa or a girl living in ancient india...she may had stayed on point.
galerouth 12 hours ago
Good fun but she is right and he believes he is right. No ponit. Just fun. I think she is happy to believe that their is no damnation waiting her while he is happy to spend his time on earth talking about god, jesus and heaven for ever.
MrSeanEngland 15 hours ago
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YouTutorials0 18 hours ago
This guy won't give a straight answer to any question she asks. Shiftlessly changing the subject, asking her to define her terms and explain her meanings and never answered her questions. Yet another reason people are waking up to the mythology of religious belief.
CaptainMacNasty 18 hours ago
@CaptainMacNasty Why is it wrong for her to define her terms? If your gonna be in opposition to something, at least have a proper understanding of what you oppose. Frank asked very legitimate questions.
jamaicanification 16 hours ago
@jamaicanification Frank shifted scope to evade the very simple question it was directed at his beliefs not hers, going to hell for not believing. It wasn't until she was starting to walk away that he finally almost answered her question, therefore avoiding the point she was originally probably going to make. I'm assuming it would of been doesn't it seem immoral to punish someone infinitely for something so petty while possibly rewarding immoral people who where saved b4 death
robvlob 14 hours ago
@robvlob read my other comments to the previous guy on this question. First, who are Atheists to say what is moral or immoral when on an Atheistic world view(which is strictly naturalistic) when it is all relative. Things like murder, rape and torture are no less immoral for humans than they are for a lion that tears its prey to shreds, a herd of hornets that torture their victims to death, or a male shark that forcefully copulates(continued)
jamaicanification 8 hours ago
@robvlob with its mate. Second, what Frank was trying to do was clear up misconceptions of the view of Hell that is out there. Hell is separation from God, its just that the New Testament uses pictoral descriptions in order to describe hell. Some depictions use fire or 'the lake of fire', while others describe hell as a place of perpetual darkness. Either way, the descriptions make clear Hell is separation from God(continued)
jamaicanification 8 hours ago
@robvlob Thirdly, to answer the question directly if someone is going to hell, it is a well known fact that Christian theology teaches that salvations comes through Christ. The interesting thing is that if hell is separation from God, and many Atheists would never want to worship God even if he were real, my question would be why is it immoral for God to give beings the choice to separate from himself???
jamaicanification 8 hours ago
@jamaicanification The very basis of the question is does one deserve any kind of punishment for simply not being convinced of this so called loving god, apologists try to muddy the question to not answer it which you have done. Regardless of what you twist an atheists sense of morality into the basis of the question is only about punishment for disbelief the good part can be loosely based on any objective or subjective sense of what good is, you choose.
robvlob 7 hours ago
When put in front of a blind person, take your time. Breath. Unless you're really talented (you, the reader are not ...), he will turn the debate toward one petty idea and you might not see it quickly enough and you'll just follow him toward nowhere.
iChimoRawr 1 day ago
@iChimoRawr Apologetics in a nutshell
robvlob 14 hours ago
Turek spins it like a top. It would be a miracle if something valid came out of his mouth.
leflipmo 1 day ago
Believe it or not.. I rather try n seek God n slim my chances at torture forever than live lik a party animal n hav so called "fun" here on earth.. Wit out faith ur serving a useless god but wit faith we serve a all mighty powerful redeemer.. There is a reason why its hard to go against ur flesh, worldy thoughts will keep u worldly.. If u dont lik wat he preaches than fine.. But until u hav actually tried to seek God, n not b readin books, but u hav actually tried to prayed n asked God to feel
JPrelude23 1 day ago
@JPrelude23 so u'll try to seek god to slim ur chances of eternal torture.Looks like childhood brainwashing is working great.Which god will u try to seek,because there are millions of them.Looks like the god concept is a casino
(i'm taking a wild guess here but i'm guessing u'll try to seek out the god that's already established in ur country's culture already.am I right or am I right?)
Samura1gamer 1 day ago
@JPrelude23 - You would conclude that people have 'never tried' prayer or 'searched for god' before and that is why they came to the conclusion of atheism? You are sorely mistaken. If god talks to you, what does he say? Because I remember prayer, it was just talking to myself, feeling just as stupid as before. Are you going to tell me I didn't pray right? People don't like your theology because it seems to pull a nice warm fuzzy blanket of delusion over peoples eyes,
UPplRSick 1 day ago
I liked the sincerity of the girl - her questions and statements. I hope she reads these comments occasionally. To get an idea of what hell is like, watch a series of 9 videos that interviewed 5 men who experienced it. They did not know each other so there could be no collaboration. Did they lie? I know they didn't but you have to decide for yourself. God loves you and wants you with Him. Now the ball is in your court. For videos, Search UTube for> TO HELL AND BACK, RAWLINGS God bless you!
qbulb 1 day ago
Boy did they get off topic. Will she go to hell? As a christian I would answer her that when her body dies her soul WILL go somewhere. Either to heaven or to hell. God will make that decision, not me young lady. Have a nice day, next?
onemansrage 2 days ago
frank turek is a pretentious idiot.
rhouk 2 days ago
This atheist chick is pwning this guy because he's waffling on what he really believes, or at least what he should believe if he's a Christian. This sort of prideful philosophical rhetoric is a far cry from accurately representing what the bible actually teaches. The fact is, men don't believe the gospel because they "considered all these truths on a case by case basis", they believe because God gave them faith in the new birth (I John 5:1, Gal 5:22).
theearstohear 2 days ago
The girl is right about this much - you cannot prove that God exists through rational arguments. It is therefore pointless to try and argue people into theism. Paul said that "all men have not faith" (II Thes 3:2) and that faith is the gift of God (Phil 1:29). If God has not given someone faith, all the philosophy, book reading, and preaching in the world will never get them to believe, indeed it cannot (II Cor 2:11-14).
theearstohear 2 days ago
@theearstohear I bet we are on opposite ends of the theological spectrum regarding a lot of stuff, but I agree with everything you wrote in this particular post. Listening to skeptics and apologists argue is often amusing (or sometimes annoying), because they think they are bitter enemies who have nothing in common, when in fact they are both, in almost all cases, evidentialists and share many of the same presuppositions. God doesn't need our apologies.
NeoVictorianX 1 day ago
@NeoVictorianX - Often times, neither side is willing to ADMIT their unprovable presuppositions. The atheist denies his presuppositions of logic and math; the Christian his presupposition of God and biblical truth. At times both dwell in the false illusion of "pure observation." Even if that were true they would still be facing the insurmountable problem that no one can make ALL observations and so anything based on observation is relegated to theory. Thanks for your thoughts.
theearstohear 1 day ago
" I don't like prophecies because just about anyone can do that" unfounded stance towards the accuracy of the bible prophecies. I keep hoping you will ask me for proof;) If you don't want to look at it ok, but don't say the lvoe message of the bible is the only thing we can take away from it. I dont think God is for war and i don't know how you came to that assumption of me.
LLThenu 3 days ago
This student asked a valid question that deserved an answer. By asking her what she meant by "being a good person" Turek effectively turned himself into the questioner and put her on the defensive. When an experienced debater does that, the questioner should say: "I asked a straightforward question that is capable of being answered. Please answer it." If the speaker responds in a similar manner, say again: "I asked ..." If necessary, repeat the question. Stand your ground and remain silent.
RichardSaunders76 3 days ago
@RichardSaunders76
He doesn't want to answer because he, and everyone else knows that the concept of hell is absurd, and fundamentally immoral. Christians, not all of them, but many, dance around this issue, because deep down they know it's evil to torture anyone forever.
brajamtho757 2 days ago
@brajamtho757 In the city were I live there is a company called MarketLink. They are a telemarketing company. On the front door of their office there is white lettering. It reads, "NO SOLICITING." Ha ha.... it is a little funny... and pathetic. If I were God I would subject people who run a telemarketing company with a no soliciting sign on its front door to everlasting torture. I know I sound like I am trying to be cute... but I am making a point about the vile nature of humans.
NeoVictorianX 1 day ago
Dude on stage is full of shit. What makes his religion right ? when there's countless of other religions in the world. Like, he needs to pull his head out of his ass
Enrique2NZ 3 days ago
@Enrique2NZ Hmmm....so if there are conflicting views regarding anything all these views must be wrong, given that none are universally accepted?
NeoVictorianX 1 day ago
@NeoVictorianX Correct, that's why we have science. Anyone who thinks there's an imaginary alpha male in the sky is an idiot.
Enrique2NZ 1 day ago
@Enrique2NZ Scientific knowledge is limited to phenomenon occurring in the phenomenal realm. If God exists, God is outside the phenomenal realm. It follows that science cannot possibly yield any information regarding the existence or the non-existence of God.
NeoVictorianX 1 day ago
@Enrique2NZ Also, your belief that there is some type of relationship between a person's intelligence and the truthfulness of their beliefs is silly. There are a lot of atheists in this world who are a lot smarter than I am. And there are a lot of Christians in this world smarter than any of the atheists writing on this thread. Neither fact means anything. You must live a very sheltered life if you are not aware of this.
NeoVictorianX 1 day ago
Wow, this guy can't answer the most simplistic questions. What a fool.
Poetswar 4 days ago 2
God has personally provided ample scientific evidence for his factual appearance and activities.
A small sample of the proof can be found on the left-hand column of my channel page, and even more is in my playlist entitled "PROOF OF GOD."
Conversely, there is no proof or evidence anywhere for the belief in atheist Dogma.
1GodOnlyOne 4 days ago
@1GodOnlyOne The Hindu gods provided "real" scientific evidence. So that means your god is wrong. Hindu gods are the true gods because there are proof. You are an atheist that don't believe in Hindu gods !
Enrique2NZ 1 day ago
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The atheist is desperate to shut down rational discussion on the topic because he knows, deep down, that there is ample scientific evidence for God's factual appearance and activities, and that there is none at all in favor of his belief in atheist Dogma.
That's why the atheist is so fond of silly phrases like "end of discussion," and "end of debate."
The debate is truly over, though -- the atheist lost.
Still, we Theists are not afraid, as the atheist is, to keep the discussion open.
1GodOnlyOne 4 days ago
@1GodOnlyOne Atheist dogma? Care to explain that one? I'm an atheist and very open to rational discussion. You stating that we are desperate to shut down rational discussion is purely a blanket statement deserving of ridicule.
chyrd 4 days ago
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1GodOnlyOne 4 days ago
"the only proof is some guy's word 100 years later"
"and that's exactly why it's amazing! wooo"
how painfully stupid is this turek fella?
jackapplejr 5 days ago
Thank you for posting this, dmanpic.
writersblock26 5 days ago
@writersblock26 no problem
dmanpic 5 days ago
I wonder why people who don't believe in God: (1) get so passionate about the whole debate and feel they need to escalate the exchange to include insults and anger - as some of the comments to this video have - (2) want to know (and care) about going to Hell?! If you are sure there is no God, then why does it matter to you?
TheNomesjoy 6 days ago
@TheNomesjoy This has been answered already but here goes. If theist beliefs never made it past the individuals front door then I would give fuckall about them but when theists try to get their creationist idiocy taught in schools I object. When theists attempt to have legislation passed based on their idiocy I object. When people are willing to kill other people based on their idiotic religious beliefs which have no basis in reality then I object.
KamekoBruns 5 days ago
@KamekoBruns Yes, I guess history has a part here, but I don't often (if ever) see such an uproar about other religions, nor are people who are interested in debating it. And show me (if we are in fact talking Christianity, and not just Theism) a Christian group who goes around killing people.
Again I ask, why people so interested to know if they are going to Hell?
TheNomesjoy 4 days ago
@TheNomesjoy For the first part, Christian fundamentalists have no problem killing abortion doctors. The KKK and racism is stepped in Christian dogma.
As for why atheists are interested in knowing if they are going to hell it has to do with honesty. If I'm a decent, compassionate and productive member of society I want to know if there are those who disregard that and will consider me as doomed to eternal damnation simply because I do not believe in their delusion.
KamekoBruns 4 days ago
@KamekoBruns Yes, there are self-proclaimed 'radical' Christian people who have done that, and probably will continue to. However, if you took a closer look at their lives, you would find that they aren't in fact Christians by how they're living, but mentally ill and often doing other illegal things. And the same for the KKK.....if you read the bible and how Jesus stood for grace and mercy above the law, you would see how those who are racist are going against the Christian faith.
TheNomesjoy 4 days ago
@KamekoBruns Oh, and it's *steeped. :)
But why would you care about what Christian's think of you, or of your fate? I don't care what people of other religions think of me?! I know according to many I'm 'deluded', 'dumb' and 'ignorant', but I believe what I believe. I wear it on my heart.
TheNomesjoy 4 days ago
@TheNomesjoy Because of the prejudice against those without a religious belief, that's why. As soon as religion becomes a personal thing, then we'll shut up. Until then, and while governments create legislation based on religious beliefs, we will fight.
timchilli 4 days ago
@timchilli I think upon closer look you'll find that there are much greater prejudices against those who do have faith. Both on an individual and wider level. I would have thought you'd want to 'fight' those of the (democratic - I'm assuming) government to represent your views.......I'm not sure how asking (and caring) if you're going to Hell would be necessary or logical in your quest to 'win the fight'?
TheNomesjoy 4 days ago
@TheNomesjoy, nope - greater prejudice against non-believers (e.g. sexual orientation legislation, prohibition on stem cell research, religious intolerance statutes, blasphemy laws, etc.). The balance is heavily tipped in favour of those with a belief in an invisible dictator. Just look at the Republican candidates, ffs!
As for hell, I'm sure atheists raise it in discussions to show the illogical nature of your deity - why would he eternally punish those who exercise free-thinking?
timchilli 4 days ago
@timchilli - That's exactly the point about hell, if god gave man a rational mind that has 'free will,' why eternally punish those that fail in that god's 'goodness test.' They were created with a skeptical mind and there is much to be skeptical of. God doesn't just show himself to everybody. Just people who lived thousands of years ago, or so they claim.
UPplRSick 4 days ago
@UPplRSick My thoughts exactly. I was hoping a believer would admit this.
timchilli 4 days ago
@timchilli I'm in Australia, and here, restrictions are increasing against most religions. (Christian) Schools are banning prayer, and not celebrating holidays like easter and sometimes christmas. School chaplins, counsellors and special needs workers are required not to say they have a faith - even if asked. True both our countries have been 'founded' on Christian values, and remnants of that history are probably still seen. But prejudice is on a greater scale socially.
TheNomesjoy 4 days ago
@TheNomesjoy It's because the atheist knows damn well that God's apearance and activities are scientific facts, just like everyone else on the planet knows it. He's just in emotion-based denial.
God bless you!
1GodOnlyOne 4 days ago
Did he say"if atheism was true"??
Evolvedprimate 1 week ago
On proof: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. End of debate.
jameslondon74 1 week ago
@jameslondon74 True, because the extraordinary claims of the atheist have no evidence. Theism wins.
1GodOnlyOne 5 days ago
@1GodOnlyOne, you're mistaken - the burden of proof lies with those who assert (i.e. believers). It is not for atheists to prove that god doesn't exist.
timchilli 4 days ago
@timchilli If you don't assert the belief that God somehow doesn't exist, you're not atheist. You only dodge because you know damn well there is no proof for your silly belief.
If you are atheist, the burden of proof is yours.
God has already personally provided conclusive proof to mankind -- only the lower animal, the vegetable, the fungus, and the atheist lack the intelligence to grasp that ample scientific proof.
atheist total fail
1GodOnlyOne 4 days ago
@1GodOnlyOne, I think you've been smoking some of that fungus.
There is no proof of god. End of discussion.
timchilli 4 days ago
@timchilli You are stupider than the lower animal -- the discussion continues, despite your ignorance:
I have plenty of proof for God's factual appearance and activities, but you are too stupid to comprehend any of it. A small portion can be found on the left-hand column of my channel page, and even more is in my playlist entitled "PROOF OF GOD."
1GodOnlyOne 4 days ago
@1GodOnlyOne, I looked at your playlist and - entirely predictably - it's a pile of nonsense. Your "proof" amounts to Lane-Craig's empty rhetoric about causation and his tenuous grasp of physics. Nothing in your arsenal is of any scientific merit. You can postulate on moral objectivism, but if this is your primary weapon against reason, you're taking a pea-shooter into a nuclear war. Morals shift throughout time, but most are rooted in empathy - which was cultured in our primitive tribal groups.
timchilli 4 days ago
@timchilli You made up your pea-sized mind before you met me. You didn't watch the playlist, liar.
You have failed to provide any rational refutations of any of the arguments in the playlist, so you lose, jackass.
atheist total fail
1GodOnlyOne 4 days ago
@1GodOnlyOne, insults? That's not very christian of you. Surely you guys are better than ad hominem attacks? Also, where's this much-vaunted forgiveness you guys are supposed to dole out? I see neither evidence of god nor your christian "values".
Live your life as a slave, proud of your chains. Leave living to us rational free-thinkers.
timchilli 4 days ago
@1GodOnlyOne You're the one asserting that god exists, so why don't you give us an example of this conclusive proof?
Atheists don't have the burden to disprove his existence. However, you, the one who believe his existence, and mention this to many people, are the one who has the burden of proving it.
So come on, tell us.
ultramatuxen 4 days ago
@ultramatuxen If you don't assert the belief that God somehow doesn't exist, you're not atheist.
If you are atheist, then the burden of proof is yours.
There is a small sample of the ample scientific evidence for God's factual appearance and activities on the left-hand column of my channel page, and even more in my playlist entitled "PROOF OF GOD."
Conversely, there is no evidence whatsoever for your silly belief in atheist Dogma.
atheist total fail
1GodOnlyOne 4 days ago
@1GodOnlyOne Dude, I asked for an evidence, not repetition of your previous comments.
Just answer my question, do you have a certifiable evidence for god's existence? you can write your answer and reply to my comment.
Atheists don't have a doctrine or dogma like religion, atheist is a position where we don't think that there is a god, and it's not necessary for one.
So, prove me wrong, tell me the proof of his existence.
ultramatuxen 4 days ago
@1GodOnlyOne Atheist doesnt mean 'asserting that no God exists.'
By definition it is 'A person who lacks belief in a god or gods.' It is the position of non belief.
The default position of a human being is non belief (Atheist), Therefore the burden of proof is on the one making the claim - Theists.
Also, there is evidence of Atheism. Im an Atheist. So are millions of other people.
You should rephrase your question so you don't sound like as much of a retard.
'Theism total fail'.
MegaLolburger 4 days ago
@1GodOnlyOne - Ohh, you're one of those people who would misrepresent what scientists actually say about the universe. I think I've watched that nonsense video of yours as well. I laughed and laughed at your misunderstanding and lack of rational thought, truly amusing. I'm sure 'your god' appeared to you in a dream and 'that's how you know he exists,' but that 'evidence,' including the nonsense in your videos, is a dreamed up fabrication. Your logic stinks, you 'ought' to know it.
UPplRSick 4 days ago
the presenter is using fear to scare people out of their intelligence and submit to superstition and dogma.
scada67 1 week ago
@scada67 Organizations utilize tv commercials and use "fear" to scare people into buckling up and not drinking and driving. What's the difference?
dmanpic 5 days ago
Look at that little skeptical nod of her head when she asks him how you distinguish between metaphor and no-metaphor in the Bible and he gives a shallow answer.
She's the right stuff -- I'd love to have her in a class of mine to work with.
manthasagittarius1 1 week ago
That girl is tough! :)
stoneking1912 1 week ago
I hate it when Christians think hell is real, and as if they are unified in this belief. You guys are heavily divided! Already more and more Christians don't believe in the existence of hell.
Casshyr 1 week ago
@Casshyr Doesn't change the fact we all need Jesus.
dmanpic 5 days ago
@dmanpic this sort of attitude at which you shove your religion down other people ain't gonna convince any1. You just further drive them away. If that's your goal, congrats, you have succeeded.
Casshyr 5 days ago
@Casshyr What's the definition of shoving? Are you reading the same comments I'm reading by all these atheists who are shoving their beliefs (in an insulting way I may add) on my page. Double standard.
dmanpic 5 days ago
@Casshyr Only you are trying to shove your religion (atheist Dogma) down other people's throats -- dmanpic is not doing that.
1GodOnlyOne 5 days ago
@1GodOnlyOne I'm not even an atheist, how can I shove atheist dogma down other people lol.
Casshyr 4 days ago
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@1GodOnlyOne I'm not even an atheist, how can I shove atheist dogma down other people lol.
Casshyr 4 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@1GodOnlyOne I'm not even an atheist, how can I shove atheist dogma down other people lol.
Casshyr 4 days ago
what a coward. I hate the way Christians always try to reverse the blame when non believers ask if they are going to hell.
Brushles83 1 week ago
@Brushles83 please read thewayhomeorfacethefiredotnet
asianbodyart 1 week ago
@Brushles83 Its not reversing the blame. Its to point to the fact that WE ALL deserve Hell. Atheists/agnostics and the majority of humanity thinks they are "good people" but say that from a faulty perspective. It's God's standard that matters, not ours.
dmanpic 5 days ago
@dmanpic thanks for saying that everyone deserves an eternity of hell fire. What a lovely religion you preach. Psycho...
Brushles83 5 days ago
@Brushles83 That is exactly why the gospel is good news my friend. It is life-changing news to know that someone paid the penalty for what you deserved to give us life and reconcile us to God.
dmanpic 5 days ago
@dmanpic do you have any idea how crazy you look when you type idiotic rubbish like that. The christian teachings are not good, they are horrible (and evil). I'm very sorry you have been brainwashed to the point where you can't see that.
Brushles83 4 days ago
@Brushles83 you have no idea what the christian teachings are - don't you?
girtkaz 4 days ago
@Brushles83 Thank you for your concern.
dmanpic 3 days ago
@Brushles83 I love the way the atheist is obsessed with what he calls "hell," and Theists set the record straight, like Turek did.
1GodOnlyOne 5 days ago
Singularity & miracles are obviously different... how ridiculous & patronizing it is to lean to the notion that it isn't!
poor turek. hope he understands reality better now. :(
keishafabio 1 week ago
@keishafabio please read thewayhomeorfacethefiredotnet
asianbodyart 1 week ago
Turek, if you see this video and read these comments, just know that she kicked your ass on the basis of logic. She knew some of her biblical history, but if she knew even more, she would have had you begging her to stop making you look like a complete idiot
severn841 1 week ago
god loves me but I'm going to hell and burn because he didn't give me enough evidence to believe that he exists............ class act
michaelflorida56 1 week ago 8
@michaelflorida56 Not only that, he also created you with a skeptic tendency that would put you at a greater risk of spending an eternity in hell than lets say... a gullible christian.
mtboger41 1 week ago
@michaelflorida56 did you not watch the video? Firs of all the descriptions in the Bible are metaphors of hell. Some mention fire, others mention utter darkness. Second, Heaven as Frank said is union with God. Hell is separation from God. So why is God such a bad guy if he allows you the choice of not being in his presence in the first place, if you dont want to?
jamaicanification 1 week ago
@jamaicanification - because the choice is this, 'do whatever god says whenever he says to do it, how he says to do it OR YOU ARE COMMITTING SIN and deserve the fires of hell. And since we all deserve the fires of hell now, thank you adam and eve and the irrational god that couldn't forgive them or teach them the error of their ways, we have to bow and scrape and tell jesus how bad we are, how much we need him to'...do what exactly? save us from our own mistakes? no thank you
UPplRSick 1 week ago
@UPplRSick wow. You simply have no understanding of Christian theology do you? All you can do is take down strawmen. All you've done is given a dumb downed, unintellectual version of What Christianity has historically preached. What you have to understand is that God, from the Christian perspective is what the philosophers have identified as the 'Supreme Good'. Now, Genesis 1:25-27 states that humans are made in his image. Therefore our greatest fulfillment is in(continued)
jamaicanification 6 days ago
@UPplRSick divine unity with God, because of the fact that we are wired for God. If you separate yourself from God then all your doing is just putting your soul down a spiritually dead path, that leads to misery in the long term. Its just like how our bodies are wired to food. If you deny your body of food because you think you can live without food, thats your decision. Its a foolish one ultimately because the body needs food our else it could starve(continued)
jamaicanification 6 days ago
@UPplRSick maybe die eventually. It is the same thing with God. You can choose to deny God, cause no one is stopping you, but there are ramifications for your decision in the long term. Every decision one makes in life has consequences, and i dont see how this is any different. Whats amusing is that Atheists complain that God's a 'celestial dictator' and yet when he gives you the choice of being separate from him, its a problem. Your just trying to have your cake and eat it too.....
jamaicanification 6 days ago
@jamaicanification - wow, talk about glossing over my points as strawmen, which they are not, and then espousing theology from the bible as your ONLY supporting evidence for the existence for your god. The thing is, what you are doing is nothing more or less than me inventing my own version of god, and telling you that YOU are going to hell for not believing in the same GOD as me. You CAN NOT cite your holy book as its own self supporting evidence.
UPplRSick 6 days ago
@UPplRSick Am, first of all, the topic has to do with the doctrine of hell. So why in the world can'ts i friggin use my theology and my Holy Book in order to properly explain that theology? Second, on an Atheistic world view concepts such as 'good' and 'evil' are just completely vacuous from a natural perspective. "Even if your theology is correct, which it is thankfully not, your god is still evil. Why you ask(continued)
jamaicanification 5 days ago
@jamaicanification - First of, if you're going to argue the validity or truthfulness of the bible with your ONLY source of evidence being the bible implicitly, you will have to defend your entire theology including why the concept of hell isn't entirely evil. I've already explained how hell is NOT a choice. Rational people, who do exist, don't choose the worst possible scenario because it suits them, ya know? The problem is, IF hell does exists, and atheist are entirely wrong
UPplRSick 5 days ago
@UPplRSick I only used the Bible in order to try and explain the doctrine of Hell. I used it in order to clear up the notion that Hell is just someone burning up in flames. I wasn't arguing whether the Bible was true. Second, again you keep using words like "evil" when your world view thinks that notions such as 'good' and 'evil' are illusory at best, delusional at worst because everything is relative. So stop make these moral judgements(continued)
jamaicanification 5 days ago
@jamaicanification - Right well, so I know why you used the bible to explain Hell, it is because it is the only place you'll find a description of it. You are agruing if the Bible is true, and if the bible is true, then Hell is true. I use words like 'evil' because I am placing myself inside of your world view, trying to live in your shows, as I have before in my life. Term's like good and evil can be looked at subjectively by an atheist, or objectively. More...
UPplRSick 4 days ago
@UPplRSick the basis for objective morality despite subjective interpretations. "Everyone claims they know the truth because god told them, and that because they can conceive of a being a goodness it must be true". In terms the implications of that truth if God existed, sure it can be subjective. I fully grant that. I even fully grant that the way christians interpret Christian theology can be subjective(continued)
jamaicanification 3 days ago
@UPplRSick but there is a difference between the objective truth of something, and its subjective implications. For instance, lets say that we were able to show indisputable evidence that there was life out there in the universe, other than our own. Objectively speaking, yes there would be life. But the implications of such a discovery is subjective and open to interpretation. No different when it comes to the issue of God and morality
jamaicanification 3 days ago
@UPplRSick when your world view gives you no basis to determine whether something is objectively evil or not. Second, i dont care what you feel or dont feel. You keep bringing feelings into this. Im saying if God existed, he gives you a choice as to whether you want to be in union with him or not. Also, you are defining choice based on your own subjective, personal criteria. I really dont see why you as an atheist have a problem(continued)
jamaicanification 5 days ago
@UPplRSick with God allowing you the decision not to be in union with him seeing as though you think he's some celestial tyrant anyways. Also, God is not my subjective concept of Goodness. Because God is the greatest conceivable thing that can possibly be conceived of, as Thomas Aquinas explains in his 3rd proof, the argument from degree, goodness itself emanates from him, because all that is in the world that is(continued)
jamaicanification 5 days ago
@UPplRSick good is just a reflection of his divine nature. Second, so what if the flood story is mentioned in other myths and legends? I wasn't even arguing for the truth of the Bible, but since you brought it up, what does that have anything to do with whether God exist or not? Yes, i totally agree that if you read stories like the Epic of Gilgamesh, you will find a similar story. That is because the people in that region(continued)
jamaicanification 5 days ago
@UPplRSick had a collective consciousness when it came to the stories and oral traditions that where passed down, some of which may be based on real events. Im not taking a closeminded position. I recognize the influence of that the prevailing culture at the time had on the Bible. Im asking you so what? It doesn't bother me one bit. I can accept that and still believe in God, the Bible and still be a Christian(continued)
jamaicanification 5 days ago
@UPplRSick and here's the thing that you have to understand as well. We have free will, but free will is not absolute. There has to be a set of preconditions that regulate free will, other wise their would be total chaos and anarchy. Lets use the example of a sovereign, democratic state that has laws. In such as state, presumably people are given fundamental rights and freedoms. But with freedom comes responsibility, and when you abuse your freedom, there are consequences(continued)
jamaicanification 5 days ago
@UPplRSick and the consequences are metted out by the laws and rules of a society which is enforced with the threat of coercion by the state. If everyone had the freedom to do absolutely everything their desires lead them to, their would be total anarchy and no consequences for certain actions. Why should it be different with God's divine law? In fact, from a theological perspective its because humans are in rebellion against(continued)
jamaicanification 5 days ago
@UPplRSick God's divine standards why we believe there is so much conflict and war within humanity, because human beings are driven by their own personal conflicting desires instead of ordering their wills to God. Second, who says their is limited information? As i have pointed out consistently, God's existence is revealed to us not only through the fact that his nature(being the greatest conceivable thing that can possibly be conceived of)(continued)
jamaicanification 5 days ago
@jamaicanification - so, morality is subjective between person to person, including between religious doctrines. Everyone claims 'they know the truth' because 'god told them' and that 'because they can conceive of a being a goodness it must be true.' Doesn't matter, your view is subjective on whether the true god gave you the right theology to believe, which puts it on the playing field of the atheist who can also conceive of goodness, surprise surprise.
UPplRSick 4 days ago
@jamaicanification - However, when you want to measure morality in an objective sense, you have to really step back and analyze the big picture and how a particular behavior, if carried out repeatedly, will affect all life forms in many situations. For example. hunting deer is morally o.k. hunting deer to extinction is not. Individuals are allowed to be subjectively biased to their own survival. But what is truly objective, is that with any action, there is always a balance
UPplRSick 4 days ago
@UPplRSick "However when you want to measure morality in an objective sense, you have to really step back and analyze the big picture and how a particular behaviour, if carried out repeatedly will affect all forms in many situations". Am, sure. I dont disagree with that. And, assuming that God exist, wouldn't he be able to do that better than anyone? No human being and truly fulfill that criteria because we always look at past event through interpretations(continued)
jamaicanification 3 days ago
@UPplRSick certain moral attitudes that might have been acceptable 1000 years ago may be unacceptable today, and certain attitudes that we have today may be unacceptable in another 1000 years. So that shows that we look at things purely through a subjective lense. "There is always a point with ANY action that if you tip the balance, take something too far, you end up hurting yourself or other people. I think that point , wherever it is, is the objective point when(continued)
jamaicanification 3 days ago
@UPplRSick we look at morality". And who is going to be the one who determines when something has gone "too far"?Hitler for instance slaughered 6 million jews and there was no one to tell him that he had gone "too far". In fact, on an atheistic world view, seeing as though morality is subjective, Hitler could well have made the argument that he didn't go far enough. Who's to say he's wrong?(continued)
jamaicanification 3 days ago
@jamaicanification - So your god is the celestrial Hitler, for whatever doesn't match up with God's morality get's thrown into Hell/Gas Chamber. If you don't agree, you die, because human death is meaningless to your god. He doesn't care about it. This world is 'an illusion, a testing ground, and not the true reality.' Your body is the property of god, and so is your soul. The only choice you have is whether you want to bend the knee, which is no choice at all.
UPplRSick 1 day ago
@UPplRSick Your an idiot. I already explained to you that people send themselves to hell. Because Hell is to not be in the presence of God. It is separation from God. I dont see how separation from God is like a gas chamber. Its because we are wired to God that, when one separates himself from his divine presence it causes anguish and torment. Its like how we are wired to food. If your an idiot not to have any food what soever, then you cause yourself to starve(continued)
jamaicanification 1 day ago
@UPplRSick and you might die. But the ownus is still on you
jamaicanification 1 day ago
@jamaicanification - If your 'gods morality' is the 'objective' morality because god is the final judgement, I would still reject it as being hypocritically insane. There is no objectivity there, there is just a particular god choosing which parts of his creation he likes more than another. Your morality is an entirely closed system revolving around your imperfect view of what 'goodness' is, and henceforth god.
UPplRSick 1 day ago
@jamaicanification - An atheist can say Hitler was wrong/bad/evil on many levels on which I'm sure even Hitler would agree. All I could say to Hitler is, 'Ok Hitler, you have your world view and the power to carry it out, until you don't. If your morality is based on how much power you have, it is no morality at all. In which case, the USA was morally superior to the Nazi's because we were more powerful. If might makes right, it's easy to show how one can be wrong.'
UPplRSick 1 day ago
@UPplRSick But who are you to tell hitler that his morality can't be based on power? Again, on atheism the way one interprets morality is purely subjective. Your just imposing your moral presuppositions on hitler. But since everything is relative, why is that view any more valid than Hitler's?
jamaicanification 1 day ago
@jamaicanification - Furthermore, the people who he ordered kill could say he is bad/evil, objectively from their standpoint of experiences. Combine those objective experiences with similar experiences and it's easy to tell that a racial holocaust can not be a sustained practice if humanity is to survive. It is easy to extrapolate out that while Hitler and friends were suffering from a mass delusion whose world view could not be tolerated. Don't make me do it.
UPplRSick 1 day ago
@UPplRSick Just because the people who say he was evil because he killed them, doesn't mean he was evil. Again, on Atheism its all relative. The Nazi's could argue that the allies where evil for attack many of their soldiers and country men and killing millions of them. The Taliban could argue that american soldiers killing their soldiers is and evil act because their experience says so. Who's to say they are wrong?
jamaicanification 1 day ago
@UPplRSick So again, we're back to the issue of subjectivity, where anyone can make up their own moral system, and since everything is relative, no one can really tell you whether your moral frame work is right or wrong
jamaicanification 1 day ago
@jamaicanification - there is always a point with ANY action that if you tip the balance, take something too far, you end up hurting yourself or other people. I think that point, wherever it is, is the objective point when we look at morality. When do your actions start hurting other people? And that's great, because we have laws in place that attempt to find those points. Some societies don't have those laws, how can you objectively say they are 'bad/evil.'
UPplRSick 4 days ago
@jamaicanification - well great question, but I think the answer to that questions lies in how successful a society that chooses to behave in a particularly odious manner survives. If you have people in society working for the benefit of society, society thrives. If you have people running the show and exploiting everyone else to an extreme, yeah those societies survive for some time, but not that long. There is good evidence for that I think. more
UPplRSick 4 days ago
@jamaicanification - how can a society, or humanity for that matter, say they did good when most or all of the people are dead because of some insane societal belief? So, there is some objectivity in that. If the consequences of a person's actions are like that of shooting yourself in the foot/head, how does that same person say those actions are good? So even in individual subjective morality, you can still find objective truths that everyone can relate to. more
UPplRSick 4 days ago
@jamaicanification - so we don't need god to tell us what is right or wrong, we can see it, or we can be blind to it but the evidence is still there. Consequences for 'bad' or 'evil' actions tend to have a way of catching up to most people. In which case, that person will know, very objectively, why they made a poor choice. Or maybe they get away it, it happens. But that fact is no more or less true with a picture of god. You just think they'll suffer later.
UPplRSick 4 days ago
@jamaicanification - In fact, you think many, many people will suffer in Hell. And really, the bible states that you are not different from those people, except for the fact that you bought this particular theology and not some other. Do you think you would be a christian if 'you' were born in India? Probabilities say no, but you would claim that 'how could I be born in India?' But that's just it, your identity and beliefs are largely shaped by where you grew up, globally.
UPplRSick 4 days ago
@UPplRSick but through the fact that creation points to God. As i pointed out, the fact that human nature is wired to God or the divine gives weight to the notion of the divine, just as how humans being wired to food for sustenance proves that food exists. Also, you say god hasn't "pointed me to a particularly correct theology". Do you even know what the definition of theology is in the first place? It is the study of God. So your saying that because you personally think(continued)
jamaicanification 5 days ago
@jamaicanification - 'the fact that creation points to god.' that is no fact. Stop misrepresenting scientists. Scientists who do actual research about the way the universe works without resorting to their 'holy book' for the answers. Hell, the people of biblical times thought the world was flat. You think god would have revealed that fact to his people. That's not what God says about the world, God thinks it's flat too, it's in the bible. And yes I've seen the quotes. MOre
UPplRSick 4 days ago
@UPplRSick First of, i never misrepresented what Scientists say, because the area of Science does not get into theological issues. Second "people in Biblical times thought the world was flat"......annnnd???? What does that have to do with whether God exist and we should be subject to his moral law? Plus, many of those Scientists that you like to hold up, happen to be religious as well. Just take a look for instance at(continued)
jamaicanification 3 days ago
@jamaicanification - First of, you do misrepresent what science says about the universe IF you would claim that evolution didn't happen, dinosaurs existed with man, and that the big bang need a 'divine' creator. That would be a misrepresentation of science. And I believe, from a 'Christian' perspective, Christians won't have to believe any of it because the bible gives them all the answer they need about how the earth was created. If you take the bible to be gods word, that is
UPplRSick 1 day ago
@UPplRSick ............................................-_-. Tell me when did i say Evolution never happened? When did i say dinosaurs existed with man? When did i say any of that? Believing in a God does not mean you have to reject any of these. And its ironic that you bring up the Big Bang, seeing as though it was a Roman Catholic Priest by the name of Father George Lemaitre who discovered the Big Bang(continued)
jamaicanification 1 day ago
@jamaicanification - People from biblical times, evidenced by their writing, thought the world was flat. The creators of the Jewish mythology had a very human perspective on what 'god said' about the earth, how the earth was formed, what it might look like 'four corners' . You would think that when god told these people about what the earth looked like, he might not have viewed the earth as a flat map. If your god doesn't exist, what moral law could he give?
UPplRSick 1 day ago
@UPplRSick Second, the Bible is written under Biblical inspiration. So the people of that time may have believed the Earth was flat. Has no bearing on the theological message that the Bible is trying to present. When i read the Bible im not look for 21st century cosmology, or Einsteins theory of relativity. Thats utter nonsense. Im looking for a theological and moral message that guides my daily life(continued)
jamaicanification 1 day ago
@UPplRSick So lets clear things up so you dont continuously misrepresent me or most Christians. I believe the Earth is 4.5 billion years old. I believe the universe is 13.7 billion years old. Its possible there are other universes out there according to M-theory. Has no damn relevance on my faith in God. None at all. And most Christians world wide recognize this(continued)
jamaicanification 1 day ago
@UPplRSick Francis Collins, the head of the human genome project who is also a evangelical Christian. Or Ken Miller, evolutionary biologist who is a Catholic. Or John Polkinghorne, eminent physicist and Anglican priest. Also "So your god understands less about the universe than scientist do". Who said that he does? Your just making an assertion right there and im not sure if i should even take that seriously or not. Also, ho are my points not worth refuting?(continued)
jamaicanification 3 days ago
@jamaicanification - As far as Francis Collins, and other 'religious' scientists, are concerned, so what? They would never admit that any of their scientific discoveries required 'Intelligent Design'' by the Christian god or they risque having their views not be taken seriously. They can hold an opinion about there being a god who controls the universe, but even a scientist who is a christian, can not claim the world is flat, like your god thinks it is.
UPplRSick 1 day ago
@UPplRSick your the one who keeps repeating the same internet- atheists -that- chill- on the -youtube -comment- section all the time talking points. "So i know wha you used the bible to explain hell, is is because it is the only place you'll find a description of it. Your arguing that if the Bible is true, then hell is true". No exactly what the original argument was about. The original argument i was addressing was is the concept of hell evil, and what(continued)
jamaicanification 3 days ago
@UPplRSick hell actually is. Im trying to clear away the misconceptions about hell, and expose the hypocrisy of many atheists who say God is a 'celestial dictator' on the one hand, but then on the other moan and complain when he gives you the choice not to be in is presence. "morality is subjective between person to person, including between religious doctrines". In how it is interpreted, yes. But if hypothetically there was a God then you would have(continued)
jamaicanification 3 days ago
@jamaicanification - So lets talk about hell, and the implications of it. Here you admitted that not even Thomas Aquinas could 'know god's nature.' Ok, but to be next to God, you have to be EXACTLY like god's nature, or he rejects you. So basically, Hell is the refuse bin for god's unholy creations. For whatever reason, these souls do not measure up to god's standard and he can have no forgiveness for them. However, since the time of A&E, we've all been unholy creations.
UPplRSick 1 day ago
@jamaicanification - you can not say I am a holy creation, if I am born into sin, and can not help myself, according to god and experience, humans make mistakes, more or less because we have imperfect knowledge. So god has all the knowledge, as soon as we have some knowledge, 'thank you tree of knowledge,' god then choose to compare his creation, man/woman with his holy self. When god sees what A&E have done, he sets death upon all his creations.
UPplRSick 1 day ago
@jamaicanification - In your christian world view, humans are creatures made with imperfect knowledge, punished for wanting to know more, punished for making mistakes, and punished eternally for it. Apparently, the only way for the OT people to 'atone' for being sinners was animal blood sacrifice, because to god killing off useful animals serves a purpose. Then Jesus came, and was the 'final' blood sacrifice, hurray for humanity. Still though, humans are imperfect creatures.
UPplRSick 1 day ago
@jamaicanification - And since we are imperfect creatures with imperfect knowledge, god that it would be best to punish humanity further by giving imperfect information about his 'wants and desires' because how is anyone supposed to know that the bible is the 'holy book' that stands out amongst all others. Other religions base their 'holy books' on 'miracles,' same as the bible. How is one supposed to know? God doesn't care, and if you fail to reason through, you go to hell.
UPplRSick 1 day ago
@jamaicanification - In fact, I believe I've read that god purposefully 'closes the hearts of men' so that they CAN NOT believe what 'gods prophets' are telling them. Or so the bible claims. Anyway, the point is, if the biblical theology is true, people still do not choose hell, or choose to be apart from god, like many Christian's claim. Nor are blood sacrifices a worthy atonement for wrong doing. You can't kill some animal or someone to make another person 'pure' again.
UPplRSick 1 day ago
@UPplRSick God closes mens hearts because their hearts where already closed to begin with. And you really dont understand the old testament sacrificial system. The lamb itself did not take away the sin, but it was symbolic. Because they would sacrifice the lamb, and then enter into communal prayer to atone for their sins. You really need to stop mischaracterizing things
jamaicanification 1 day ago
@jamaicanification - And it is exactly because your god is so 'mysterious' that no one knows what the hell he 'really wants' and people who 'claim to know what god wants' ALWAYS GET IT WRONG. It is unreasonable that your god would ETERNALLY PUNISH PEOPLE for not knowing what the hell god wants from them. It turns your god into some repulsive force of 'apparent goodness,' apart from being actual goodness. Your god kills instead of teaches, as evidenced by the O.T.
UPplRSick 1 day ago