Answer: Yes. See: Heaven's Gate. Even the leaders of this cult offed themselves. Either the leaders somehow convinced themselves they were correct, or they're willing to die for a lie.
sooo true! They were close enought to the death and were actually there so they would noe for sure wheter or not it was true. So they wouldnt die for a lie.!
Yes people would die for a lie. Happens all the time. People die for their religions all over world, and I'm sure Lee would insist that those religions aren't true. Then people die because they think it's true or want to believe it's true - even when it isn't. Unless Lee wants to claim that Islam is the one true religion too... Well, his argument is invalid.
@Stairc the problem with that is that people die for their religions all the time now. anyone will die for anything... only the disciples lived withJesus! Unlike u and me, they KNEW whether or not it was true. They KNEW!!! thats more than anyone alive today can say. they witnessed it so they must have KNOWN that Jesus rose back from the dead. They knew the TRUTH and thats y they dies. It wasnt just their "belief", it was a fact.
@LovaticAndJesusLover Nope, doesn't make a difference. People believe things all the time despite evidence to the contrary. Even if people have the facts to determine something isn't true, they still often deny it despite the facts. Like all the young earth creationists. Every fact shows that the world is billions of years old, but they still insist it's only a few thousand. People will still believe falsehoods even when they have evidence to the contrary.
@LovaticAndJesusLover Well, actually there is no solid evidence for god. But, you clearly think there is - and you also think that it's possible for people to be aware of this 'evidence' and yet not accept that god exists. And you also probably think that denying god is going to result in unending torture in hell. So, you seem to think that people would endure torture for all eternity for a lie... So why is it so surprising that people might die for one too?
The Romans blamed the Christians for the fire that destroyed much of Rome in 64 AD. They didn't think that the GODS started the fire as punishment for Rome's tolerance of Christianity (as was the case in future Roman persecutions of Christians). The Romans believed that the Christians themselves deliberately set fire to the buildings in an attempt to destroy the city. Does anyone really think that if the Christians just recanted their religious beliefs then the Romans would have mercy on them?
@bwconklin Most will choose to reject belief in God and most people will be going to hell. Jesus Christ already mentioned it will happen.
Jesus Christ said Matthew 7:13-14---Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
@bwconklin Psalms 14:1a---The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Romans 1:18-19---For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
@bwconklin Romans 1:20-21----For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
@bwconklin Romans 1:22---Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
This is what God and your Supreme Final Judge Jesus Christ has to say about pride arrogant conscience blinded blasphemer people like you and Richard Dawkins.
@BBQFanNo1 It's all well and good to claim the evidence for God is obvious because the Bible says so--but what IS this evidence? Nice ad hominem attack there, calling everyone who disagrees with you all sorts of names without any support for these assertions. By all means, stay a Christian for your entire life, but please, learn to debate respectfully with reasoned arguments instead of copying scripture quotes and calling people names. It's not polite and won't win your point of view respect.
The Pharisees and the Saducees were surely not concerned whether or not Jesus actually survived a crucifixion because as long as he was officially "DEAD" they believed in their own victory; that they had effectively silenced his ministry and indeed, though Jesus is reported to have been witnessed by others after his "death" on the cross, he never preached in public again. The Jewish authorities got what they wanted - or so they thought ...
If we accept the truth of Jesus' existence and crucifixion because it is recorded in the New testament, we also must accept he was taken down from the cross before the Sabbath began. There is no evidence to confirm whether or not Jesus actually died. People who did not witness his "death" but knew he had been crucified would have ONLY believed that he was "resurrected" if they saw him alive and well after his supposed "death".
If you examine all the world religions on the face of the planet in search of any thread of supernatural elements: all are simply embellished stories and myths except one - Judaism and the fulfillment of Judaism The Christ ! Extremely direct prophecies written hundreds even thousands of years before the precise event takes place. FACT - archaeological evidence proves this. If you take it seriously, study the historical evidence yourself without a warp view. Good Luck friends :)
oh and btw the cult leader suicided with the cultists . jesus - if he existed at all- he could have been convinced of truth of his claims but that doesnt make them true. same way a crazy person can be convinced that he is napoleon bonaparte and would rather die than revoke that claim. that doesnt make them napoleon tho
@ajosep12 can you prove the miracles that are written in that silly book of yours are more than just some extraordinary claims written by people on a piece of paper? You cant. First of all you dont even know if jesus existed, and even if for the arguments sake we would accept that he did it still isnt proof of the miraculous claims the book makes about him. So you look extremely silly asking the question you ask.
@ajosep12 If someone writes about me and you couple of hundreds years from now that we were gods and we both performed miracles so that the guy can claim to be our disciple and organise a cult, does that prove that we were gods? a mad man can claim manny things - those things then can be believed by the folowers of the mad man and written down or made up just to make the madman more believable after he died. that doesnt make them true. seriously its so painfuly obvious.....duh
oh and btw you want a real life example of the mechanism i just explained to you put to work? look at scientology, a not mad man this time but greedy crook wanted to create a cult to get more money, being incredibly poor science fiction writer he user his terribad skills to forge a text with bunch of extraordinary claims. then he formed a cult based on the text and today milions of people pay him money and undergo slave work to fill pockets of the cult leaders after him, its called SCIENTOLOGY
and tbh christianitys beggining was very similar. for starters the cult itself is a plagiarism of manny desert stories myths and monsters of the desert culture where cult oryginated. and then it was used to gain power and money - which its use didnt change till today.ITs a moneymaking scheme to make people obidient, silent, closed to the investigation and rational thining and paying up.
manny people die for lies. for example there was a cult that comitted mass suicide cause they sencirely believed theyre gonna go to the alien spaceship at the end of haleys comet tail. they died for a lie. the strength of theyre convictions did not prove the truth of theyre claims and claiming jesus wouldnt die for his lie is moronic, seriously that guy should be hosspitalized
Of course people die for things they believe in, and of course sometimes those things turn out to be lies. You missed th e point. Would they die "for a lie" is what he is presenting. They died because they claimed He was the son of God. They knew if this was a lie.
@casey197930 "They died because they claimed He was the son of God."
No, they died because they were the leaders of Christianity and Nero blamed the great fire of Rome (64 AD) on the Christians. They weren't given the option of recanting their faith. They were executed for being the leaders of a terrorist organization. Would we give Bin Laden the option of recanting Islam?
Of course people die for things they believe in, and of course sometimes those things turn out to be lies. You missed th e point. Would they die "for a lie" is what he is presenting.
This is probably the /worst/ argument in favor of the divinity of Jesus.
Of course people die for things they believe in, and of course sometimes those things turn out to be lies.
The claim that the "disciples" did this is suspect, though; the earliest book of the new testament was written 35-45 years after the crucifixion event. So, yeah. Fail.
Some people go to church almost every week like me. While in the church people are told stories of people dying because of their faith. So, missionaries are prepared to die for their faith. This does not mean that they die becuase they believed something true, but because they believed something. It is likely possible to be self decieved. Also, I would think that people of other faiths die for their faith too, for example: terrorists.
We have ZERO evidence that the apostles even lived, let alone how they died. We have STORIES passed down through the centuries, NOTHING MORE. This is not evidence of ANYTHING.
his distinction between the willingness of terrorists and Jesus' disciples was tenuous at best. He might want to include the topic of Jones town, Branch Davidian's, and Heavens gate in his analysis of willingness to die.
@ExtantFrodo The distinction is clear. The disciples were willing to die for what they saw with their own eyes - Jesus risen from the dead. The terrorists died for an idea/faith which they have no absolute way of verifying.
You think so? I have no way to know WHAT they saw or IF they saw anything or if it's just reported that they saw or wished they saw ( like how they supposedly saw him but didn't recognize him till later? ). Sorry bud, extraordinary claims merit extraordinary evidence. What do you know of the personal experiences of the followers of Jim Jones or David Koresh?
You do have a way. We have eyewitness accounts collected in the New Testament. Jesus died. Then they saw him alive again, in several places over 40 days. They were so impacted they started the Christian movement proclaiming his resurrection based on what they saw. They willingly suffered and died rather than deny what they saw. Why does extraordinary claim demand extraordinary evidence? Extraordinary is a subjective term. Jim Jones and David Koresh did not die and come back to life. Jesus did.
You listed extra-biblical sources. The biblical sources are in the New Testament, including 4 biographies of Jesus and numerous letters from his earliest followers which included opponents like Paul. These are the eyewitness accounts. And yes history writing comes AFTER an event, not before. Yes if you have 500 witnesses, most of whom were still alive to confirm your claim, lived a profoundly changed life of moral integrity and were willing to die for you claim, I would seriously consider it.
@MrFF39 Paul was no eye witness. He'd never seen Jesus alive. His epileptic fit led him to think he could twist Christian worship to be more like Jewish worship and be more pleasing to god by having pseudo-jews rather than just killing christians. You should research the authorship of the gospels. You have so much to learn. Would it not be honest to actually KNOW what the origin of the texts you are relying on are?
One person writing about 500 witnesses is not the same as 500 witnesses writing.
Paul had several encounters with Jesus - visual and audible. I didn't know epileptics had visions and heard voices! Paul was the one that argued that Christian worship should be LESS like Jewish worship! Read Acts 15 and Galatians. Thanks for the tip, but I have done the postgrad research at a secular university. Paul mentioned the 500 so if his readers didn't believe him, there were plenty of other people alive to ask who could confirm his experience. Maybe they were all epileptics too!
@ExtantFrodo He mentioned: Peter, the Twelve Apostles and James - 14 Individuals. I'm sure if anyone asked he would have provided the names of others. But a list of 500 names is not the best use of parchment which was limited in space. You've had encounters too? - tell me all about them. But I suspect that you have not had them so like other sceptics you arrogantly assume that because something has not happened to you, therefore it can't be true.
@MrFF39 Oh but I did meet Jesus. It was no big deal. He was a hallucination like many others I had when I was schizophrenic.
14, not quite 500. Weren't there supposedly 5000 fed on a couple fishes? No mention. 1000 another time? no mention. The dead rising up out of their graves on Easter? No mention. (I guess it was common those days(maybe that's why no one noticed Jesus among the crowd of resurrected dead.)
Sorry you are a schizophrenic. I now know not to take your comments so seriously. Thankfully the many witnesses to Jesus' resurrection were not. And as collective hallucinations do not occur, let alone in different places at different times, we can trust that the apostles were not as deluded as you. No mention? The things you are mentioned in the gospels. Paul was writing letters addressing particular issues. Why was he obliged to write all those details in letters, which are not biographies..
@MrFF39 Ah so schizophrenia means uneducated, retarded unworthy of note? Interesting bias you have there friend. Sorry for your assumptions coercing your hand and life. Glad that's not my problem. Then there's the reading comprehension failure you have. I said I WAS schizophrenic. You can take that how ever you will, But you didn't think of me that way before I mentioned it. Funny how you plaster your preconceptions all over your actual perceptions. Is that common for you?
@ExtantFrodo Sorry for any offence given. Did anyone else share your hallunication at the same time, at the same place, in the same way? And did the shared hallucination occur often? If so, you may have a point. If not, then the comparison between your experience and the gospel accounts is invalid. Jesus' resurrection appearances occured to many people, in different places at different times. Jesus was touched, grabbed and was conversed with. Read - The Birth of Christianity - Paul Barnett
@MrFF39 "Thankfully the many witnesses to Jesus' resurrection were not."
and you know this ...how?
Can you trust the collective sitings actually occurred? Can you trust they weren't just a tale of a collective siting? Mentioned in the gospels by NON-EYE-WITNESSES and not corroborated by any non-biblical sources. You're not going to claim the gospels were written by Jesus' disciples are you?
@ExtantFrodo Are you seriously saying that everyone one of them were schizo? What evidence do you have for such an extreme claim? Yes I can trust them, because the Christian movement emerged almost immediately after Christ's death, in the city where he died and was buried. Too soon for any myths to develop, too many people agreeing with the claims with no motive that could gain them anything but death and suffering. Also Christ's body could have been presented - it wasn't. Read Blomberg's book.
Did you know the Romans would not have let his body down off the cross for several weeks? That's the way they treat criminals. As an example. They WANT people to see the corpse rotting away. You should know that as a "historian"
@ExtantFrodo You have no evidence at all they were schizo yet you choose to believe it - that says a lot. It as the passover, the Jews were already restless, Joseph of Armiathea was a leading Pharisee and made the request. To keep things quiet Pilate acceded to their request. Why assume that things always have to be done the same way all the time? Why historian in inverted commas - do you know me? Please don't prejudge - I know how much you don't like that.
@MrFF39 I don't think they were schizo. I think they were mostly second and third hand tales that were largely fabricated and compounded as most folk tales are. In a time when verifying people statements is damned near next to impossible, you either call the person a liar and risk having him whack your head off or just nod your head and wonder if maybe you don't know everything there is to know.
@ExtantFrodo Why did they fabricate it? Why did they die for what they knew to be a lie? That's the whole point of this video. Again Paul Barnett's book on the Birth of Christianity deals with these objections. Will you read any of the books I recommend, or am I wasting my time mentioning them?
@ExtantFrodo Well given the limitations of this site, and your unwillingess to go beyond what you already know, there isn't much point in continuing this. Major issues of the type we are discussing can not be done any justice with concise statements that allow for no elaboration. So once again, I wish you well, and if you want t o discuss further you can email me here and I'll give you my Skype details.
@MrFF39 I beg your pardon. Just because I'm not going to read your books is no reason for you to state I'm not willing to go beyond what I know. I'm not a fast reader. It would be weeks before I' finish just the list of books you've recommended so far. What do you expect of me? Skype? Not a chance.
@ExtantFrodo The list of books - 2 books! That's an overwhelming list! Well your lack of reading means you will not be able to go much beyond the ideas you currently hold. Sad that you would choose to limit yourself. Skype why not? Why is it that atheists love ranting on sites like this in short little emotional barbs where they don't have to do much explaining or defending of their position. But when given the chance to have a proper dialouge they run a mile. So ends our Youtube correspondence!
@MrFF39 yup 2 books would take about 2 weeks. You want to talk about them tonight? It's not gonna happen. I read quite a lot but I have to pace it according to my busy life. OOP is really new for me. (I've always done procedural programming languages) I'm not much a fan of fiction unless it's science fiction and philosophy is just so much mental masturbation to me. If it makes you feel better about your fail tonight to claim I'm an ignoramus then fine suit yourself.
Respond to this video...2 books in 2 weeks is very good! Go for it. Would love to hear your thoughts after you read them. Did not want to talk about the books tonight. Where did i say I wanted to discuss the books? Did I call you an ignoramus somewhere? I said you were limiting yourself by not reading beyond what you already know. The books I recommended are scholarly works of history by historians not novelists so no problem with your dislike of fiction. I am ready to talk anytime.
@MrFF39 "I said you were limiting yourself by not reading beyond what you already know. "
Yes, I read that. I'm also literate enough to know exactly what it means. Aren't you? History is a lot like biology. Biology is just a lot more useful knowledge. Not likely I'll hit much history for a while. Particularly useless stuff like the kooks following mythical gods.
@ExtantFrodo Still here ready to have a conversation. Sent the email with my skype id. So you dismiss these scholars without even reading a word of what they wrote. Amazing arrogance.
@MrFF39 Misreading me still? I DON'T HAVE TIME to read them. Yes, I don't have time to undertake your courses because I'm NOT fucking content to just read those two books, I'd want to read the rebuttals and support documents both scientific and cultural, psychological, and historical. At 53 years of age I face that I may not have much time if I don't help accelerate the research on immortality (or at least life extension). I'm recovering in leukemia with a BMT from my sister hoping I get 5 years
@ExtantFrodo Yet you have time to rant on this site! Give your problems why waste time watching a Christian video? Why waste time with all these messages all day long. For something you believe doesn't even exist. Still ready to talk. I won't respond to anything else you write. So you can save yourself the
time. My skype is still logged on, but it won't be for much longer.
@MrFF39 "Why waste time with all these messages all day long. For something you believe doesn't even exist."
I guess I'm pretty sure the hope for me living long enough to climb aboard the rocket ship to longevity is shot and I content myself with the hope that what little consciousness raising I can do will help others. Would you say that what I do is making things worse? If yes, then why? In what way?
@MrFF39 The first thing I did was respond to this video. The obvious and repeatedly demonstrated answer is YES PEOPLE WILL DIE FOR A LIE. People do that every day of the year.
@MrFF39 hmm, seems like YOU are the one running away. I just don't care for face to face. Call that running? What ever. Hmmph. I think you just have no response to " Jesus performed those miracles with nanotechnology"
@ExtantFrodo I'm not running away - I'm right here. It doesn't have to be face to face - it can be voice to voice - like a phone chat. I have too much to say! As I said these comment boxes are too restricitve. You just keep moving from issue to issue without resolving any of them. A conversation would make that less likely.
@MrFF39 I see it quite differently. This group text boxes is always available for how ever lengthy a response one wants to put the effort into at an point asynchronously. Speech is almost always dragged to the topic of the moment and very little gets resolved.
@ExtantFrodo You have managed to drag our chats way off the topic of the video and nothing's been resolved. With a conversation we can stop each other if we get side-tracked. It's also more personable. The text boxes ARE limiting. You can't even post weblinks in them. I will email you with my skype id. Even a live typed chat is preferable to this method of communication.
@MrFF39 Oh well. I thought we'd done quite well. You posited a god was the necessary explanation for the miracles of jesus thus proving his divinity. I exposed a plausible natural alternative which you prefer not to accept. I don't expect we'll get much further than this whichever way we proceed.
@ExtantFrodo No you did quite poorly because your natural alternative requires more faith believe than the biblical explanation. You jump to conclusions a lot. You have no idea how we will proceed because you aren't prepared to go beyond what you already know, or try out another method of communication. If you stick to such narrow ways of thinking then yes we will not get much further. The Skype invitation still stands.
@MrFF39 Nanotechnology does not require faith. The feasibility studies have shown superlative results. Natural biology has been working for 3.5 billion years proving nanotech is quite capable of doing everything we think it can.
The biblical explanation isn't an explanation. It sweeps explanations under the carpet of "God did it". How did complexity come about? God. So what explains God's complexity? uhhhhhhh...???
@MrFF39 If my conclusions seem like jumps to you perhaps it is you who has not considered asking for further explanation when I perhaps assumed you had adequate familiarity with the matter.
@MrFF39 "Jim Jones and David Koresh did not die and come back to life."
and YET THEIR followers were again willing to DIE. Thus refuting your notion that only resurrection is sufficient for Jesus' followers to go through martyrdom.
@ExtantFrodo Did Jim Jones and David Koresh rise from the dead? Their followers died because they believed the teachings of these men, Jesus followers died because they SAW him alive, after they had seen him die. It's the extraordinary EVENT of the Resurrection which motivated the message and origins of the Christian movement within weeks of Jesus' death. They died not for an idea or belief, but for what they SAW, TOUCHED, and SPOKE TO - the Resurrected Jesus.
@MrFF39 No, you are talking about a myth. Tall tales made taller in the retelling. Most of those attributed to Jesus predated Jesus by hundreds of years.
That argument has almost taken on mythical status. Very few serious historians would agree with you, as I discovered when I did postgraduate study on the historicity of the New Testament. The Historical Reliabity of the Gospels by Craig Blomberg is a good starting point for you to become better informed. I understand though, I used to think like you, until I did some research.
@MrFF39 So, if Jesus was the son of the god of the old testament, do you find any reason to like either of them? From cursing all men for the indiscretion of Adam and Eve, to wiping out nearly all life on earth because he found most men displeasing, to dragging people through horrible tests of suffering and pain that he knew damned well were too much for them, to promoting genocide, infanticide, war, theft, rape and general discorgiality with other people? Not me.
Not liking God does not make the biblical claims untrue. Nor does compiling selective lists of perceived moral transgressions on God's part. I have no idea on what moral foundation you actually make these judgments, because if there is no God, then morality is relative, and none of the things you mention are absolutely wrong. As the creator of the universe God has the right to do as he pleases. That he saves any of his creatures who so woefully disappoint him is amazing.
@ExtantFrodo How has science and archaeology done it? We are dealing with historical events. Science can not verify or falsify history. Archaeology continually affirms the blblical record. Yes God is so monstrous do die on behalf of humanity. And again, whether you think he's a monster or not, does not change his reality one little bit. Human? It's just one opinion against another where morality is concerned if that is your criteria. Shifting opinions mean any agreements are just as subjective.
@MrFF39 God did not die. According to you if god died that would be IT. Then end of everything. What kind of sacrifice is a video game death that isn't real? I know it doesn't change his reality for being fiction one bit.
One opinion against another? No. Morality is contractual. You are afforded no option to negotiate the moral contract with god. He is AMORAL.
@ExtantFrodo According to me God died and was raised to life. So you got that wrong. We aren't talking about video games, but historical events. No you don't negotiate with your creator. When you realise that your whole life is in his hands, you recognise that you are the weaker partner and accept the terms - which are - believe that I love you and have died for your sins, and you shall have eternal life. That is a tough gig! Are all contracts moral?
@MrFF39 This notion still cracks me up. So God sacrificed himself, to himself, to redeem you from the imperfection he imposed upon you so that you won't suffer the punishment he would otherwise inflict on you. But somehow, free will fits in there, even though he knows in advance every decision you will ever make, thus making it actually impossible for you to choose any other way.
Why did ANYONE have to die for anyone else? Is spilled blood the best God could do? If he ain't dead he didn't die.
@ExtantFrodo Imperfection is not imposed - its a result of free choice. Knowing what we will do in advance, does not mean God makes our decisions for us. The daily experience of free choice that we have clearly shows that we aren't robots. So therefore we are responsible for our actions. Jesus died for us, because we are all sinful creatures facing certain judgment for defying God's holy law. We can't atone for ouselves as we continually sin. Only God could find a way.
@ExtantFrodo You assume that genes are what determines moral choices. God created us free agents. He knows what we will do - but omniscience does not mean that we have no free will. But then according to you, it seems we don't have free will because our genes determine our choice. Everyone you've met is sinful - that you refuse to acknowledge it is symptomatic of the sin problem. Denial!
@MrFF39 "You assume that genes determine moral choices."
Nope. Pay attention. I'm about to radically change your world view. Genes will never determine your moral choices. They WILL and DO however SET THE STAGE AND RANGE OF YOUR MORAL OPTIONS.
Yes i deny that people that people are not worth while, that people are not essentially good but frustrated by so many barriers to them being the best people they could be. It IS enough to make one angry towards the false and fake promises of unreal gods.
@ExtantFrodo People START out nice. They LEARN to be not nice after repeated attempts to be as nice as possible are met with biological and physical limitations. If there's a god, this is his doing and he is to blame. I think it's just shit happens and we're here because of a fluke of evolution. We could have never been if the comet didn't wipe out the dinosaurs. Why didn't god bring us here 700 million years ago when the world was first suitable for human life?
@MrFF39 "omniscience does not mean that we have no free will."
I already said that. But omniscience coupled with being the creator of everything certainly places him splat square in the middle of being responsible for everything. If I know that putting a wall in your path will force you to go around it and I choose to put that wall in your path then are you responsible for going around the wall?
@ExtantFrodo I am not the creator, nor are you. So that is irrelevant. We can only deal with the creator we have. However, if you do some theological study, you might start to understand God's deeds a bit better. I still don't know why you are appalled. "Wondrous people" are cosmic accidents under an athesit worldview (assuming you are an atheist - apologies if you are not) - they have no ultimate worth. So spare me the moral indignation. You have no basis for it.
@ExtantFrodo I know you do think of other people - but you've deluded yourself to think that they matter. People are here for no reason and are going no where - that is the logical outcome of your worldview. If you wish to ascribe people with worth, that is your choice, but the worth is not grounded in objective reality. If I choose to have a different view, that does not make me wrong. God is the source of all ultimate worth and truth. Without God, everything is ultimately meaningless.
@MrFF39 "People are here for no reason and are going no where - that is the logical outcome of your worldview."
Same as yours it seems. Why do you care about people?
What is objective reality? Can you prove you are not a brainlike thing in a vat like thing? Can you prove a single word of the bible wasn't input through wires into your 'brain"?
The god of the bible doesn't know in genesis that he's gonna hate what he created and destroy most of it in a flood. Curious thing for an omniscient.
@ExtantFrodo People are here because God graciously chose to create us. We are going to live with Him. He has given us worth by creating us and then dying for us. Therefore every person has dignity and value because God created them for a purpose. Since you keep asking questions, and these text boxes are limited, perhaps we should talk. If you would like my contact details let me know.
@ExtantFrodo The evidence is God's revelation through his chosen spokespersons and ultimately through Jesus. You should accept it because Jesus' demonstrated his authority on these matters, by rising from the dead. Which takes us back to where we started. I have evidence we can discuss for why we can believe this. Your theories about group hallucinations and alien nanotechnology are speculative fantasies that have no evidence for them - as you well know.
@MrFF39 The evidence is the pretense that a god was speaking through Jesus. You should accept it because Jesus performed those miracles that are only possible with nanotechnology.
@ExtantFrodo But God can because he's the one that made it all. And he's the one with the power to change it all. That is most definitely not the same thing. We are creatures, he is the creator. We are the recipients of life, he is the author of life. Amazing that you can't see the difference.
@MrFF39 Lastly, was Jesus supernatural? I wouldn't believe it for a second. Endowed by aliens with mature nanotech? Much more plausible.
None of his 'miracles' is too hard for good nanotech. He said he came that we could have life and have it more abundantly and his followers turned it into the biggest death cult of all. The suicide god they cannibalize weekly. Talk to them about making people immortal and they cried abomination. They don't listen to their master. Boohoo.
@ExtantFrodo Why wouldn't you believe it? What evidence do you have that a nanotech existed at that time that could do any of the miracles he performed? You really do have an amazing faith to believe your theories. Death cult? Cannibalize weekly? You really have little idea of what Christians believe. I had similar views to you once so I understand. I do hope you start reading beyond the works that simply confirm your assumptions. There is much to discover. All the best.
@MrFF39 biology is nanotech. We've gone from horse and buggy to approaching nanotech ourselves in under 200 years. Any civilized alien culture that developed nanotech a billion years ago would easily be spread all over the galaxy. You don't think christianity is a death cult? Do you seek immortality of the living?
Throughout history people have died for the belief that someone they knew became a Godlike figure.Moses of Crete was a Jewish Messiah claimant in the 5th century C.E.He called himself Moses, and promised to lead the people, like the ancient Moses, dry-shod through the sea back to Palestine. His followers, convinced by him, left their possessions and waited for the promised day, when at his command many cast themselves into the sea, some finding death, others being rescued.
This ridiculous "argument" never fails to make me laugh. Muslims die for their beliefs all the time - that must mean that THEIR BELIEFS are the right ones.
All it "proves" is that these people believed. Not what they believed was actually true.
No, I don't get because you are talking out your ass....
It isn't even a fact that the disciples died for their "faith" and not other reasons. You believe the bible because - it's the bible. If they did die for their beliefs, all that proves it that THEY BELIEVED; not what they believed ACTUALLY HAPPENED. Got it?
You're the one that attacked me first you fucking retard, so you're the one that apparently got "upset." Very cool indeed! Now go get a life....play in someone else's yard, hm?
My first comment clearly stated that the disciples BELIEVED; I clearly said it was "fact" TO THEM. Being fact to them though does not make it fact to everybody else. Strobel is arguing for the validity and "truthfulness" of Christianity here; he is NOT stating that Jesus was "only true" to the disciples, he is stating that since it was true to them, IT WAS TRUE. And you're too fucking retarded to see that. Sad, but oh so true....
Yes, I did get it you retarded asshole. Now fuck off already. Thanks for showing the YouTube community that you have the reading skills and writing skills of a Southpark character.
Does Lee has any evidence that any of the people who supposedly saw the resurrected Jesus was martyred? The Acts of Peter doesn't count unless he also wants to believe that Simon Magus could fly like a bird.
People WILL die for a lie. This argument is worthless. Joseph Smith died for a lie. He knows for a fact that he never saw "the Father" and "the Son" talking to him. Yet he died for it. This happens all the time. Besides there are MANY reasons to die for a lie. The biggest one is obvious: pride.
We know that Jesus was resurrected because the Bible said so. If you don't accept the authority of the Bible, you have bigger problems to deal with.
@quantum0000 Actually, Smith was lynched for trying to become dictator of northern Illinois. I don't think the people who killed him would have let him go even if he had shouted out, 'There is no angel called Moron!"
@axsimulate ugg I guess it's true what George Mcdonald said "Give truth to he who loves it not and you give him more multiplied reasons for interpretation." In other words you can't argue with a fool. The difference is that the apostles knew Jesus, they watched him die. If they were just making the Resurrection up they wouldn't have the conviction to die for something they KNEW to be untrue. There is a difference between belief and knowledge, and that is what you are missing.
How do you know what is contained in the Bible is true? Because somebody told you so? That is called being gullible. Being gullible could be interpreted as being foolish.
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
Andre Gide (1869-1951)
First, you still didn't answer my question.
Do you have any contemporary proof that the apostles actually existed?
How do you explain Jim Jones or Heaven's Gate? Do you think all those people died because they knew the truth?
@dougmoerhoffman "You totally missed the point." Thank you for that intelligent, informative comment. The Bible tells us about unicorns and talking animals and men walking on the water and 4-legged insects and a flat earth and humans made out of dust... And at the end of the story the Prince rides up on his White Horse, rescues the princess, marries her, and takes her away to live happily ever after in his mansion in the sky. Truly a fairy tale worth dying for!
@Imaginefree69 The point is that they were alive at the time. They would have KNOWN for a FACT whether their belief was true or not. Believers today can't, but they COULD. The fact that they refused to recant even to their deaths proves that it is true, because if they knew (which they did) that it was false, they would have given it up.
Don't buy into the bullshit that people would die for a lie. You know that no one would, and you wouldn't either.
Not to mention Galileo. Although he didn't die for his beliefs, he spent the rest of his life under house arrest (only because he recanted) and his work placed on the Index Librorum Prohibitorum by the Catholics and remained there for about 200 years. While we now know his work to be true, religion, because of these passages; Psalm 93-1, Psalm 96-10, 1 Chronicles 16-30, Psalm 104-5, Ecclesiastes 1-5, accused and convicted him of heresy.
@Imaginefree69 He didn't say that once, he said something completely different. You have to be kidding me, I doubt you listened to this video thoroughly, take the pipe-cleaners out of your ears and open your mind.
as idontknowwat2type says, the japanese died buy the MILLIONS for the belief that their emporer was a god. they lived at teh same time as he. they saw him. they touched him. they ate with him an died for him. it was obvious he was not a god, but they were delusioned by their own minds. they threw themsleves into combat, never retreated, kamakazied carriers, an refused to surrender even after the first atom bomb. i think the desciple got trumped. at least on taht issue
ok, so they are sayin that the desciples wouldnt have died for a lie. that if they knew wat jesus siad was a lie, then they wouldnt have died for him. well, example: Davidian compound. those folks back in the middle of the 20th century who drank poison an died for their leader. a few years ago some religious nuts burned themselves in a church. the whole thing an everyone inside. there have been plenty of times in histiry folks died for a lie. this "evidence" is bullshit.
The Branch Davidians burned to death in a church because they believed David Koresh was the Messiah, Jim Jones and his followers drank cyanide laced flavor-aide because they believed all of the lies Jim Jones told them. And don't forget about the Heavens Gate followers that killed themselves to hitch a ride on a comet that was passing by earth at that time before the earth was "cleansed"
No! the disciples of Jesus either saw the risen Jesus or stole his body. Religious terrorists have practically have a belief system brainwashed into them.
i think your totaly missing the point..Terrorist dieing for what they believe is true is far diffrenet then disiples dieing for a lie that they wittnessed(which is what you belive is true). Big diffence. watch the video again till you get it.
Matthew 16:13-14 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets
When Jesus asked his disciples this question, John the Baptist, Elijah, Jeremiah, and all the OT prophets were dead. This shows the disciples were an ignorant superstitious bunch who would believe any fanciful tale. Ebal
They told what people tought and not what they think. The fact that Elia comes back is favoured by the Israelites. At the pascha they keep a seat reserved in case Elia comes by. When Jesus shouted Eli Eli Lama Sabachtani they tought He called for Elia to come. El in Elia is God.
Answer: Yes. See: Heaven's Gate. Even the leaders of this cult offed themselves. Either the leaders somehow convinced themselves they were correct, or they're willing to die for a lie.
Simple as that.
bobmuffins 1 week ago
Very weak argument and I'm a Christian
nomesbirdy 2 weeks ago
sooo true! They were close enought to the death and were actually there so they would noe for sure wheter or not it was true. So they wouldnt die for a lie.!
LovaticAndJesusLover 1 month ago
"Would someone die for a lie?"
Yes people would die for a lie. Happens all the time. People die for their religions all over world, and I'm sure Lee would insist that those religions aren't true. Then people die because they think it's true or want to believe it's true - even when it isn't. Unless Lee wants to claim that Islam is the one true religion too... Well, his argument is invalid.
Stairc 1 month ago
@Stairc the problem with that is that people die for their religions all the time now. anyone will die for anything... only the disciples lived withJesus! Unlike u and me, they KNEW whether or not it was true. They KNEW!!! thats more than anyone alive today can say. they witnessed it so they must have KNOWN that Jesus rose back from the dead. They knew the TRUTH and thats y they dies. It wasnt just their "belief", it was a fact.
LovaticAndJesusLover 1 month ago
@LovaticAndJesusLover Nope, doesn't make a difference. People believe things all the time despite evidence to the contrary. Even if people have the facts to determine something isn't true, they still often deny it despite the facts. Like all the young earth creationists. Every fact shows that the world is billions of years old, but they still insist it's only a few thousand. People will still believe falsehoods even when they have evidence to the contrary.
Stairc 1 month ago
@Stairc Oh! You mean like how people still believe there is no God despite all the evidence for God. Oh hmmm i see that
LovaticAndJesusLover 1 month ago
@LovaticAndJesusLover Well, actually there is no solid evidence for god. But, you clearly think there is - and you also think that it's possible for people to be aware of this 'evidence' and yet not accept that god exists. And you also probably think that denying god is going to result in unending torture in hell. So, you seem to think that people would endure torture for all eternity for a lie... So why is it so surprising that people might die for one too?
Stairc 1 month ago
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BBQFanNo1 5 months ago
The Romans blamed the Christians for the fire that destroyed much of Rome in 64 AD. They didn't think that the GODS started the fire as punishment for Rome's tolerance of Christianity (as was the case in future Roman persecutions of Christians). The Romans believed that the Christians themselves deliberately set fire to the buildings in an attempt to destroy the city. Does anyone really think that if the Christians just recanted their religious beliefs then the Romans would have mercy on them?
KayBeeEee1983 5 months ago
The earliest we can date the stories about the deaths of the apostles is the early 2nd century. These are made up stories, nothing more..
bwconklin 6 months ago
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@bwconklin Most will choose to reject belief in God and most people will be going to hell. Jesus Christ already mentioned it will happen.
Jesus Christ said Matthew 7:13-14---Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
BBQFanNo1 5 months ago
@bwconklin Psalms 14:1a---The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Romans 1:18-19---For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
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BBQFanNo1 5 months ago
@bwconklin Romans 1:20-21----For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
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BBQFanNo1 5 months ago
@bwconklin Romans 1:22---Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
This is what God and your Supreme Final Judge Jesus Christ has to say about pride arrogant conscience blinded blasphemer people like you and Richard Dawkins.
BBQFanNo1 5 months ago
@BBQFanNo1 It's all well and good to claim the evidence for God is obvious because the Bible says so--but what IS this evidence? Nice ad hominem attack there, calling everyone who disagrees with you all sorts of names without any support for these assertions. By all means, stay a Christian for your entire life, but please, learn to debate respectfully with reasoned arguments instead of copying scripture quotes and calling people names. It's not polite and won't win your point of view respect.
Megaritz 5 months ago
The Pharisees and the Saducees were surely not concerned whether or not Jesus actually survived a crucifixion because as long as he was officially "DEAD" they believed in their own victory; that they had effectively silenced his ministry and indeed, though Jesus is reported to have been witnessed by others after his "death" on the cross, he never preached in public again. The Jewish authorities got what they wanted - or so they thought ...
EyeofHorus33 6 months ago
If we accept the truth of Jesus' existence and crucifixion because it is recorded in the New testament, we also must accept he was taken down from the cross before the Sabbath began. There is no evidence to confirm whether or not Jesus actually died. People who did not witness his "death" but knew he had been crucified would have ONLY believed that he was "resurrected" if they saw him alive and well after his supposed "death".
EyeofHorus33 6 months ago
If you examine all the world religions on the face of the planet in search of any thread of supernatural elements: all are simply embellished stories and myths except one - Judaism and the fulfillment of Judaism The Christ ! Extremely direct prophecies written hundreds even thousands of years before the precise event takes place. FACT - archaeological evidence proves this. If you take it seriously, study the historical evidence yourself without a warp view. Good Luck friends :)
IamJohnHello 6 months ago
Why are there so many different religions?
doireallyneed1 7 months ago
oh and btw the cult leader suicided with the cultists . jesus - if he existed at all- he could have been convinced of truth of his claims but that doesnt make them true. same way a crazy person can be convinced that he is napoleon bonaparte and would rather die than revoke that claim. that doesnt make them napoleon tho
86Corvus 8 months ago
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ajosep12 7 months ago
@ajosep12 can you prove the miracles that are written in that silly book of yours are more than just some extraordinary claims written by people on a piece of paper? You cant. First of all you dont even know if jesus existed, and even if for the arguments sake we would accept that he did it still isnt proof of the miraculous claims the book makes about him. So you look extremely silly asking the question you ask.
86Corvus 7 months ago
@ajosep12 If someone writes about me and you couple of hundreds years from now that we were gods and we both performed miracles so that the guy can claim to be our disciple and organise a cult, does that prove that we were gods? a mad man can claim manny things - those things then can be believed by the folowers of the mad man and written down or made up just to make the madman more believable after he died. that doesnt make them true. seriously its so painfuly obvious.....duh
86Corvus 7 months ago
oh and btw you want a real life example of the mechanism i just explained to you put to work? look at scientology, a not mad man this time but greedy crook wanted to create a cult to get more money, being incredibly poor science fiction writer he user his terribad skills to forge a text with bunch of extraordinary claims. then he formed a cult based on the text and today milions of people pay him money and undergo slave work to fill pockets of the cult leaders after him, its called SCIENTOLOGY
86Corvus 7 months ago
and tbh christianitys beggining was very similar. for starters the cult itself is a plagiarism of manny desert stories myths and monsters of the desert culture where cult oryginated. and then it was used to gain power and money - which its use didnt change till today.ITs a moneymaking scheme to make people obidient, silent, closed to the investigation and rational thining and paying up.
86Corvus 7 months ago
manny people die for lies. for example there was a cult that comitted mass suicide cause they sencirely believed theyre gonna go to the alien spaceship at the end of haleys comet tail. they died for a lie. the strength of theyre convictions did not prove the truth of theyre claims and claiming jesus wouldnt die for his lie is moronic, seriously that guy should be hosspitalized
86Corvus 8 months ago
Being sure of one's ability to tell when they are deceived is directly proportional to one's INABILITY to do exactly that.
ZergAteu 8 months ago
There's very flimsy evidence supporting the church tradition about martyred christians since the gospels were written many decades after Jesus died.
But even so, we have plenty of examples of people dying for a lie. Remember Heaven's Gate? 600 followers of Jim Jones? Waco?
paulinator61 9 months ago
Of course people die for things they believe in, and of course sometimes those things turn out to be lies. You missed th e point. Would they die "for a lie" is what he is presenting. They died because they claimed He was the son of God. They knew if this was a lie.
casey197930 9 months ago
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KayBeeEee1983 8 months ago
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@casey197930 "They died because they claimed He was the son of God."
No, they died because they were the leaders of Christianity and Nero blamed the great fire of Rome (64 AD) on the Christians. They weren't given the option of recanting their faith. They were executed for being the leaders of a terrorist organization. Would we give Bin Laden the option of recanting Islam?
KayBeeEee1983 8 months ago
Of course people die for things they believe in, and of course sometimes those things turn out to be lies. You missed th e point. Would they die "for a lie" is what he is presenting.
casey197930 9 months ago
This is probably the /worst/ argument in favor of the divinity of Jesus.
Of course people die for things they believe in, and of course sometimes those things turn out to be lies.
The claim that the "disciples" did this is suspect, though; the earliest book of the new testament was written 35-45 years after the crucifixion event. So, yeah. Fail.
Fordi 9 months ago
Some people go to church almost every week like me. While in the church people are told stories of people dying because of their faith. So, missionaries are prepared to die for their faith. This does not mean that they die becuase they believed something true, but because they believed something. It is likely possible to be self decieved. Also, I would think that people of other faiths die for their faith too, for example: terrorists.
floydnelson92 10 months ago
We have ZERO evidence that the apostles even lived, let alone how they died. We have STORIES passed down through the centuries, NOTHING MORE. This is not evidence of ANYTHING.
bwconklin 10 months ago 2
People will sacrifice their lives and their genitals for a ride on a UFO.
Never underestimate the power of self delusion.
lowcomedy 10 months ago
ProfMTH has done an excellent job of shredding this argument to smithereens....
nightvidcole 1 year ago
Would Someone Die For A Lie?
Yes. See Jim Jones suicidal followers.
*Closes video*
xxxFaustusxxx 1 year ago
his distinction between the willingness of terrorists and Jesus' disciples was tenuous at best. He might want to include the topic of Jones town, Branch Davidian's, and Heavens gate in his analysis of willingness to die.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo The distinction is clear. The disciples were willing to die for what they saw with their own eyes - Jesus risen from the dead. The terrorists died for an idea/faith which they have no absolute way of verifying.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 "..what they saw with their own eyes.."
You think so? I have no way to know WHAT they saw or IF they saw anything or if it's just reported that they saw or wished they saw ( like how they supposedly saw him but didn't recognize him till later? ). Sorry bud, extraordinary claims merit extraordinary evidence. What do you know of the personal experiences of the followers of Jim Jones or David Koresh?
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
You do have a way. We have eyewitness accounts collected in the New Testament. Jesus died. Then they saw him alive again, in several places over 40 days. They were so impacted they started the Christian movement proclaiming his resurrection based on what they saw. They willingly suffered and died rather than deny what they saw. Why does extraordinary claim demand extraordinary evidence? Extraordinary is a subjective term. Jim Jones and David Koresh did not die and come back to life. Jesus did.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39
Gaius Suetonius Tranquilius 70 AD -130 AD
Lucian of Samosata 125 - 180
Cornelius Tacitus 56 - 117
Josephus 37 - 100
Pliny the Younger 61-112
These are your biblical sources. All BORN after Jesus's supposed death and resurrection.
Not EYE witnesses in the least. .GET IT?
Why does extraordinary claim demand extraordinary evidence?
So you would just believe me when I say I was taken to Mars and Jupiter last week by a troop of aliens from Tau Ceti?
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
You listed extra-biblical sources. The biblical sources are in the New Testament, including 4 biographies of Jesus and numerous letters from his earliest followers which included opponents like Paul. These are the eyewitness accounts. And yes history writing comes AFTER an event, not before. Yes if you have 500 witnesses, most of whom were still alive to confirm your claim, lived a profoundly changed life of moral integrity and were willing to die for you claim, I would seriously consider it.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 Paul was no eye witness. He'd never seen Jesus alive. His epileptic fit led him to think he could twist Christian worship to be more like Jewish worship and be more pleasing to god by having pseudo-jews rather than just killing christians. You should research the authorship of the gospels. You have so much to learn. Would it not be honest to actually KNOW what the origin of the texts you are relying on are?
One person writing about 500 witnesses is not the same as 500 witnesses writing.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
Paul had several encounters with Jesus - visual and audible. I didn't know epileptics had visions and heard voices! Paul was the one that argued that Christian worship should be LESS like Jewish worship! Read Acts 15 and Galatians. Thanks for the tip, but I have done the postgrad research at a secular university. Paul mentioned the 500 so if his readers didn't believe him, there were plenty of other people alive to ask who could confirm his experience. Maybe they were all epileptics too!
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 did he mention them by name? No. You are as eager to be deceptive as any I've ever met.
"Encounters"? LOL I've had audio and visual encounters with jesus too. They've got a word for that.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo He mentioned: Peter, the Twelve Apostles and James - 14 Individuals. I'm sure if anyone asked he would have provided the names of others. But a list of 500 names is not the best use of parchment which was limited in space. You've had encounters too? - tell me all about them. But I suspect that you have not had them so like other sceptics you arrogantly assume that because something has not happened to you, therefore it can't be true.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 Oh but I did meet Jesus. It was no big deal. He was a hallucination like many others I had when I was schizophrenic.
14, not quite 500. Weren't there supposedly 5000 fed on a couple fishes? No mention. 1000 another time? no mention. The dead rising up out of their graves on Easter? No mention. (I guess it was common those days(maybe that's why no one noticed Jesus among the crowd of resurrected dead.)
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
Sorry you are a schizophrenic. I now know not to take your comments so seriously. Thankfully the many witnesses to Jesus' resurrection were not. And as collective hallucinations do not occur, let alone in different places at different times, we can trust that the apostles were not as deluded as you. No mention? The things you are mentioned in the gospels. Paul was writing letters addressing particular issues. Why was he obliged to write all those details in letters, which are not biographies..
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 Ah so schizophrenia means uneducated, retarded unworthy of note? Interesting bias you have there friend. Sorry for your assumptions coercing your hand and life. Glad that's not my problem. Then there's the reading comprehension failure you have. I said I WAS schizophrenic. You can take that how ever you will, But you didn't think of me that way before I mentioned it. Funny how you plaster your preconceptions all over your actual perceptions. Is that common for you?
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo Sorry for any offence given. Did anyone else share your hallunication at the same time, at the same place, in the same way? And did the shared hallucination occur often? If so, you may have a point. If not, then the comparison between your experience and the gospel accounts is invalid. Jesus' resurrection appearances occured to many people, in different places at different times. Jesus was touched, grabbed and was conversed with. Read - The Birth of Christianity - Paul Barnett
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 Correction "THE ACCOUNT" claims a shared experience.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@MrFF39 "Thankfully the many witnesses to Jesus' resurrection were not."
and you know this ...how?
Can you trust the collective sitings actually occurred? Can you trust they weren't just a tale of a collective siting? Mentioned in the gospels by NON-EYE-WITNESSES and not corroborated by any non-biblical sources. You're not going to claim the gospels were written by Jesus' disciples are you?
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo Are you seriously saying that everyone one of them were schizo? What evidence do you have for such an extreme claim? Yes I can trust them, because the Christian movement emerged almost immediately after Christ's death, in the city where he died and was buried. Too soon for any myths to develop, too many people agreeing with the claims with no motive that could gain them anything but death and suffering. Also Christ's body could have been presented - it wasn't. Read Blomberg's book.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 every one. Yup all half dozen.
Did you know the Romans would not have let his body down off the cross for several weeks? That's the way they treat criminals. As an example. They WANT people to see the corpse rotting away. You should know that as a "historian"
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo You have no evidence at all they were schizo yet you choose to believe it - that says a lot. It as the passover, the Jews were already restless, Joseph of Armiathea was a leading Pharisee and made the request. To keep things quiet Pilate acceded to their request. Why assume that things always have to be done the same way all the time? Why historian in inverted commas - do you know me? Please don't prejudge - I know how much you don't like that.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 I don't think they were schizo. I think they were mostly second and third hand tales that were largely fabricated and compounded as most folk tales are. In a time when verifying people statements is damned near next to impossible, you either call the person a liar and risk having him whack your head off or just nod your head and wonder if maybe you don't know everything there is to know.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo Why did they fabricate it? Why did they die for what they knew to be a lie? That's the whole point of this video. Again Paul Barnett's book on the Birth of Christianity deals with these objections. Will you read any of the books I recommend, or am I wasting my time mentioning them?
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 I probably won't read them. I have too much on my palate as it is. Learning JAVA for Android is much more important.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo Well given the limitations of this site, and your unwillingess to go beyond what you already know, there isn't much point in continuing this. Major issues of the type we are discussing can not be done any justice with concise statements that allow for no elaboration. So once again, I wish you well, and if you want t o discuss further you can email me here and I'll give you my Skype details.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 I beg your pardon. Just because I'm not going to read your books is no reason for you to state I'm not willing to go beyond what I know. I'm not a fast reader. It would be weeks before I' finish just the list of books you've recommended so far. What do you expect of me? Skype? Not a chance.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo The list of books - 2 books! That's an overwhelming list! Well your lack of reading means you will not be able to go much beyond the ideas you currently hold. Sad that you would choose to limit yourself. Skype why not? Why is it that atheists love ranting on sites like this in short little emotional barbs where they don't have to do much explaining or defending of their position. But when given the chance to have a proper dialouge they run a mile. So ends our Youtube correspondence!
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 yup 2 books would take about 2 weeks. You want to talk about them tonight? It's not gonna happen. I read quite a lot but I have to pace it according to my busy life. OOP is really new for me. (I've always done procedural programming languages) I'm not much a fan of fiction unless it's science fiction and philosophy is just so much mental masturbation to me. If it makes you feel better about your fail tonight to claim I'm an ignoramus then fine suit yourself.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
Respond to this video...2 books in 2 weeks is very good! Go for it. Would love to hear your thoughts after you read them. Did not want to talk about the books tonight. Where did i say I wanted to discuss the books? Did I call you an ignoramus somewhere? I said you were limiting yourself by not reading beyond what you already know. The books I recommended are scholarly works of history by historians not novelists so no problem with your dislike of fiction. I am ready to talk anytime.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 "I said you were limiting yourself by not reading beyond what you already know. "
Yes, I read that. I'm also literate enough to know exactly what it means. Aren't you? History is a lot like biology. Biology is just a lot more useful knowledge. Not likely I'll hit much history for a while. Particularly useless stuff like the kooks following mythical gods.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo Still here ready to have a conversation. Sent the email with my skype id. So you dismiss these scholars without even reading a word of what they wrote. Amazing arrogance.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 Misreading me still? I DON'T HAVE TIME to read them. Yes, I don't have time to undertake your courses because I'm NOT fucking content to just read those two books, I'd want to read the rebuttals and support documents both scientific and cultural, psychological, and historical. At 53 years of age I face that I may not have much time if I don't help accelerate the research on immortality (or at least life extension). I'm recovering in leukemia with a BMT from my sister hoping I get 5 years
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo Yet you have time to rant on this site! Give your problems why waste time watching a Christian video? Why waste time with all these messages all day long. For something you believe doesn't even exist. Still ready to talk. I won't respond to anything else you write. So you can save yourself the
time. My skype is still logged on, but it won't be for much longer.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 It's part of my R&R therapy. See you round.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@MrFF39 "Why waste time with all these messages all day long. For something you believe doesn't even exist."
I guess I'm pretty sure the hope for me living long enough to climb aboard the rocket ship to longevity is shot and I content myself with the hope that what little consciousness raising I can do will help others. Would you say that what I do is making things worse? If yes, then why? In what way?
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@MrFF39 The first thing I did was respond to this video. The obvious and repeatedly demonstrated answer is YES PEOPLE WILL DIE FOR A LIE. People do that every day of the year.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo Will reply to this AGAIN on Skype - otherwise you can read by answer above.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 hmm, seems like YOU are the one running away. I just don't care for face to face. Call that running? What ever. Hmmph. I think you just have no response to " Jesus performed those miracles with nanotechnology"
I know which seems more plausible to me.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo I'm not running away - I'm right here. It doesn't have to be face to face - it can be voice to voice - like a phone chat. I have too much to say! As I said these comment boxes are too restricitve. You just keep moving from issue to issue without resolving any of them. A conversation would make that less likely.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 I see it quite differently. This group text boxes is always available for how ever lengthy a response one wants to put the effort into at an point asynchronously. Speech is almost always dragged to the topic of the moment and very little gets resolved.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo You have managed to drag our chats way off the topic of the video and nothing's been resolved. With a conversation we can stop each other if we get side-tracked. It's also more personable. The text boxes ARE limiting. You can't even post weblinks in them. I will email you with my skype id. Even a live typed chat is preferable to this method of communication.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 Oh well. I thought we'd done quite well. You posited a god was the necessary explanation for the miracles of jesus thus proving his divinity. I exposed a plausible natural alternative which you prefer not to accept. I don't expect we'll get much further than this whichever way we proceed.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo No you did quite poorly because your natural alternative requires more faith believe than the biblical explanation. You jump to conclusions a lot. You have no idea how we will proceed because you aren't prepared to go beyond what you already know, or try out another method of communication. If you stick to such narrow ways of thinking then yes we will not get much further. The Skype invitation still stands.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 Nanotechnology does not require faith. The feasibility studies have shown superlative results. Natural biology has been working for 3.5 billion years proving nanotech is quite capable of doing everything we think it can.
The biblical explanation isn't an explanation. It sweeps explanations under the carpet of "God did it". How did complexity come about? God. So what explains God's complexity? uhhhhhhh...???
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@MrFF39 If my conclusions seem like jumps to you perhaps it is you who has not considered asking for further explanation when I perhaps assumed you had adequate familiarity with the matter.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@MrFF39 "Jim Jones and David Koresh did not die and come back to life."
and YET THEIR followers were again willing to DIE. Thus refuting your notion that only resurrection is sufficient for Jesus' followers to go through martyrdom.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo Did Jim Jones and David Koresh rise from the dead? Their followers died because they believed the teachings of these men, Jesus followers died because they SAW him alive, after they had seen him die. It's the extraordinary EVENT of the Resurrection which motivated the message and origins of the Christian movement within weeks of Jesus' death. They died not for an idea or belief, but for what they SAW, TOUCHED, and SPOKE TO - the Resurrected Jesus.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 No, you are talking about a myth. Tall tales made taller in the retelling. Most of those attributed to Jesus predated Jesus by hundreds of years.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
That argument has almost taken on mythical status. Very few serious historians would agree with you, as I discovered when I did postgraduate study on the historicity of the New Testament. The Historical Reliabity of the Gospels by Craig Blomberg is a good starting point for you to become better informed. I understand though, I used to think like you, until I did some research.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 So, if Jesus was the son of the god of the old testament, do you find any reason to like either of them? From cursing all men for the indiscretion of Adam and Eve, to wiping out nearly all life on earth because he found most men displeasing, to dragging people through horrible tests of suffering and pain that he knew damned well were too much for them, to promoting genocide, infanticide, war, theft, rape and general discorgiality with other people? Not me.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
Not liking God does not make the biblical claims untrue. Nor does compiling selective lists of perceived moral transgressions on God's part. I have no idea on what moral foundation you actually make these judgments, because if there is no God, then morality is relative, and none of the things you mention are absolutely wrong. As the creator of the universe God has the right to do as he pleases. That he saves any of his creatures who so woefully disappoint him is amazing.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39
"Not liking God does not make the biblical claims untrue."
No, archeology and science does that.
"Nor does compiling selective lists of perceived moral transgressions on God's part."
Nope, but it does illuminate who will side with a monster and who won't.
"I have no idea on what moral foundation you actually make these judgments"
Human. The only valid one for me.
"none of the things you mention are absolutely wrong."
If it's not an agreed contract between parties it's wrong.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo How has science and archaeology done it? We are dealing with historical events. Science can not verify or falsify history. Archaeology continually affirms the blblical record. Yes God is so monstrous do die on behalf of humanity. And again, whether you think he's a monster or not, does not change his reality one little bit. Human? It's just one opinion against another where morality is concerned if that is your criteria. Shifting opinions mean any agreements are just as subjective.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 God did not die. According to you if god died that would be IT. Then end of everything. What kind of sacrifice is a video game death that isn't real? I know it doesn't change his reality for being fiction one bit.
One opinion against another? No. Morality is contractual. You are afforded no option to negotiate the moral contract with god. He is AMORAL.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo According to me God died and was raised to life. So you got that wrong. We aren't talking about video games, but historical events. No you don't negotiate with your creator. When you realise that your whole life is in his hands, you recognise that you are the weaker partner and accept the terms - which are - believe that I love you and have died for your sins, and you shall have eternal life. That is a tough gig! Are all contracts moral?
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 This notion still cracks me up. So God sacrificed himself, to himself, to redeem you from the imperfection he imposed upon you so that you won't suffer the punishment he would otherwise inflict on you. But somehow, free will fits in there, even though he knows in advance every decision you will ever make, thus making it actually impossible for you to choose any other way.
Why did ANYONE have to die for anyone else? Is spilled blood the best God could do? If he ain't dead he didn't die.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo Imperfection is not imposed - its a result of free choice. Knowing what we will do in advance, does not mean God makes our decisions for us. The daily experience of free choice that we have clearly shows that we aren't robots. So therefore we are responsible for our actions. Jesus died for us, because we are all sinful creatures facing certain judgment for defying God's holy law. We can't atone for ouselves as we continually sin. Only God could find a way.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 " Imperfection is not imposed"
It sure as hell is. You did not choose your genes. I didn't choose mine. Until we can pick and choose then don't say it's a free choice.
"Knowing what we will do in advance, does not mean God makes our decisions for us."
Not if he's not also the creator of everything. If so then it certainly is. It's when you combine the two that you lose that delicious free will.
I've yet to meet one sinful person. I've heard of a few on the news but never met one myself.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo You assume that genes are what determines moral choices. God created us free agents. He knows what we will do - but omniscience does not mean that we have no free will. But then according to you, it seems we don't have free will because our genes determine our choice. Everyone you've met is sinful - that you refuse to acknowledge it is symptomatic of the sin problem. Denial!
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 "You assume that genes determine moral choices."
Nope. Pay attention. I'm about to radically change your world view. Genes will never determine your moral choices. They WILL and DO however SET THE STAGE AND RANGE OF YOUR MORAL OPTIONS.
Yes i deny that people that people are not worth while, that people are not essentially good but frustrated by so many barriers to them being the best people they could be. It IS enough to make one angry towards the false and fake promises of unreal gods.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo People START out nice. They LEARN to be not nice after repeated attempts to be as nice as possible are met with biological and physical limitations. If there's a god, this is his doing and he is to blame. I think it's just shit happens and we're here because of a fluke of evolution. We could have never been if the comet didn't wipe out the dinosaurs. Why didn't god bring us here 700 million years ago when the world was first suitable for human life?
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@MrFF39 "omniscience does not mean that we have no free will."
I already said that. But omniscience coupled with being the creator of everything certainly places him splat square in the middle of being responsible for everything. If I know that putting a wall in your path will force you to go around it and I choose to put that wall in your path then are you responsible for going around the wall?
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@MrFF39 "When you realise that your whole life is in his hands"
Do you subscribe to "Might makes right"?
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo I subscribe to God makes right.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39
"As the creator of the universe God has the right to do as he pleases."
If you were a creator of sentient beings is this what your attitude would be? I'm appalled.
"That he saves any of his creatures who so woefully disappoint him is amazing."
If you say so. I've seen far too many wondrous people destroyed to concur with your opinion.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo I am not the creator, nor are you. So that is irrelevant. We can only deal with the creator we have. However, if you do some theological study, you might start to understand God's deeds a bit better. I still don't know why you are appalled. "Wondrous people" are cosmic accidents under an athesit worldview (assuming you are an atheist - apologies if you are not) - they have no ultimate worth. So spare me the moral indignation. You have no basis for it.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 "I still don't know why you are appalled."
I'm not a shallow narrow-minded callous fuck that thinks nothing of other people. That's why.
"Wondrous people" are cosmic accidents under an atheist worldview"
Which just makes them all the more unique exotic and precious.
"they have no ultimate worth"
Neither does god.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo I know you do think of other people - but you've deluded yourself to think that they matter. People are here for no reason and are going no where - that is the logical outcome of your worldview. If you wish to ascribe people with worth, that is your choice, but the worth is not grounded in objective reality. If I choose to have a different view, that does not make me wrong. God is the source of all ultimate worth and truth. Without God, everything is ultimately meaningless.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 "People are here for no reason and are going no where - that is the logical outcome of your worldview."
Same as yours it seems. Why do you care about people?
What is objective reality? Can you prove you are not a brainlike thing in a vat like thing? Can you prove a single word of the bible wasn't input through wires into your 'brain"?
The god of the bible doesn't know in genesis that he's gonna hate what he created and destroy most of it in a flood. Curious thing for an omniscient.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo People are here because God graciously chose to create us. We are going to live with Him. He has given us worth by creating us and then dying for us. Therefore every person has dignity and value because God created them for a purpose. Since you keep asking questions, and these text boxes are limited, perhaps we should talk. If you would like my contact details let me know.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 "People are here because God graciously chose to create us."
You make this assertion without any evidence. Why should I accept it?
No thanks, I enjoy the exercise of keeping my posts and responses concise.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo The evidence is God's revelation through his chosen spokespersons and ultimately through Jesus. You should accept it because Jesus' demonstrated his authority on these matters, by rising from the dead. Which takes us back to where we started. I have evidence we can discuss for why we can believe this. Your theories about group hallucinations and alien nanotechnology are speculative fantasies that have no evidence for them - as you well know.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 The evidence is the pretense that a god was speaking through Jesus. You should accept it because Jesus performed those miracles that are only possible with nanotechnology.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@MrFF39 People make their own reasons for being here and going where they will. Why begrudge them that? What does god do? DUH, same thing.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo But God can because he's the one that made it all. And he's the one with the power to change it all. That is most definitely not the same thing. We are creatures, he is the creator. We are the recipients of life, he is the author of life. Amazing that you can't see the difference.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 "god can" what? You dropped the reference.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@MrFF39 Lastly, was Jesus supernatural? I wouldn't believe it for a second. Endowed by aliens with mature nanotech? Much more plausible.
None of his 'miracles' is too hard for good nanotech. He said he came that we could have life and have it more abundantly and his followers turned it into the biggest death cult of all. The suicide god they cannibalize weekly. Talk to them about making people immortal and they cried abomination. They don't listen to their master. Boohoo.
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo Why wouldn't you believe it? What evidence do you have that a nanotech existed at that time that could do any of the miracles he performed? You really do have an amazing faith to believe your theories. Death cult? Cannibalize weekly? You really have little idea of what Christians believe. I had similar views to you once so I understand. I do hope you start reading beyond the works that simply confirm your assumptions. There is much to discover. All the best.
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 biology is nanotech. We've gone from horse and buggy to approaching nanotech ourselves in under 200 years. Any civilized alien culture that developed nanotech a billion years ago would easily be spread all over the galaxy. You don't think christianity is a death cult? Do you seek immortality of the living?
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
@ExtantFrodo What is your evidence that a civilized alien culture has done these things? Immortality is about life, not death. I seek life!
MrFF39 1 year ago
@MrFF39 What is your evidence that it was not a civilized alien culture?
Yes, and must you die before you become immortal?
ExtantFrodo 1 year ago
How did most of the disciples die? Exactly how was each martyred?
RadarKat73080 1 year ago
Would someone die for a lie? To you Christians, I offer one name; Joseph Smith.
shon8121 1 year ago
Throughout history people have died for the belief that someone they knew became a Godlike figure.Moses of Crete was a Jewish Messiah claimant in the 5th century C.E.He called himself Moses, and promised to lead the people, like the ancient Moses, dry-shod through the sea back to Palestine. His followers, convinced by him, left their possessions and waited for the promised day, when at his command many cast themselves into the sea, some finding death, others being rescued.
mrgetrealpeople 1 year ago
Many have died for a lie, for instance communism.
lizazoon 1 year ago
There are many situations in which i would die for a lie. the question is more on selflessness
ShadowxBoi 1 year ago
This ridiculous "argument" never fails to make me laugh. Muslims die for their beliefs all the time - that must mean that THEIR BELIEFS are the right ones.
All it "proves" is that these people believed. Not what they believed was actually true.
1ProudFemaleAtheist 1 year ago
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urheadonastick 1 year ago
@urheadonastick
I listened to it. I did not miss the point. My comment stands.
1ProudFemaleAtheist 1 year ago
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urheadonastick 1 year ago
@urheadonastick
No, I don't get because you are talking out your ass....
It isn't even a fact that the disciples died for their "faith" and not other reasons. You believe the bible because - it's the bible. If they did die for their beliefs, all that proves it that THEY BELIEVED; not what they believed ACTUALLY HAPPENED. Got it?
1ProudFemaleAtheist 1 year ago
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urheadonastick 1 year ago
@urheadonastick
Your mother is a fucking cunt for shitting you out, douchebag. Shut the fuck up already, go suck a dick or something and make yourself useful.
1ProudFemaleAtheist 1 year ago
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urheadonastick 1 year ago
@urheadonastick
"dike" LMFAO what are you, like 12 years old?
You're the one that attacked me first you fucking retard, so you're the one that apparently got "upset." Very cool indeed! Now go get a life....play in someone else's yard, hm?
1ProudFemaleAtheist 1 year ago
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urheadonastick 1 year ago
@urheadonastick
My first comment clearly stated that the disciples BELIEVED; I clearly said it was "fact" TO THEM. Being fact to them though does not make it fact to everybody else. Strobel is arguing for the validity and "truthfulness" of Christianity here; he is NOT stating that Jesus was "only true" to the disciples, he is stating that since it was true to them, IT WAS TRUE. And you're too fucking retarded to see that. Sad, but oh so true....
So fuck off, now K? You've pwned yourself. :-)
1ProudFemaleAtheist 1 year ago
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urheadonastick 1 year ago
@urheadonastick
I said that in my first comment. You're too stupid to read properly. Not my problem, but it explains a lot about you.
Take care now.
1ProudFemaleAtheist 1 year ago
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urheadonastick 1 year ago
@urheadonastick
Yes, I did get it you retarded asshole. Now fuck off already. Thanks for showing the YouTube community that you have the reading skills and writing skills of a Southpark character.
1ProudFemaleAtheist 1 year ago
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urheadonastick 1 year ago
Does Lee has any evidence that any of the people who supposedly saw the resurrected Jesus was martyred? The Acts of Peter doesn't count unless he also wants to believe that Simon Magus could fly like a bird.
HConstantine 1 year ago
People WILL die for a lie. This argument is worthless. Joseph Smith died for a lie. He knows for a fact that he never saw "the Father" and "the Son" talking to him. Yet he died for it. This happens all the time. Besides there are MANY reasons to die for a lie. The biggest one is obvious: pride.
We know that Jesus was resurrected because the Bible said so. If you don't accept the authority of the Bible, you have bigger problems to deal with.
Accept presuppositionalism!
quantum0000 1 year ago
@quantum0000 Actually, Smith was lynched for trying to become dictator of northern Illinois. I don't think the people who killed him would have let him go even if he had shouted out, 'There is no angel called Moron!"
HConstantine 1 year ago
all those people who "died for their beliefs" are only oral traditions, and noone knows if they ever really happened...
steptocheese 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Religion is rapidly dwindling worldwide
as education becomes universal.
Primitive man thought that thunder was the shouting of gods,
that lightning was the spears of gods,
that the eclipse was god turning out the lights.
As science explains more and more natural phenomena
there are fewer and fewer dark corners of ignorance
for god(s) to hide in.
Education dissolves Religion.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
Using Lee's own logic. From a Christian point of view, Islam is a lie, and those people are dying for their "lie", how does he explain that?
axsimulate 1 year ago
@axsimulate ugg I guess it's true what George Mcdonald said "Give truth to he who loves it not and you give him more multiplied reasons for interpretation." In other words you can't argue with a fool. The difference is that the apostles knew Jesus, they watched him die. If they were just making the Resurrection up they wouldn't have the conviction to die for something they KNEW to be untrue. There is a difference between belief and knowledge, and that is what you are missing.
ocja0201 1 year ago
@ocja0201
How do you know what is contained in the Bible is true? Because somebody told you so? That is called being gullible. Being gullible could be interpreted as being foolish.
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
Andre Gide (1869-1951)
First, you still didn't answer my question.
Do you have any contemporary proof that the apostles actually existed?
How do you explain Jim Jones or Heaven's Gate? Do you think all those people died because they knew the truth?
axsimulate 1 year ago
People die for lies every day of the year.
People die for Communism, Islam,
gay rights, political freedom, and Christianity.
Firm belief in a delusion does not make it true.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 You totally missed the point.
dougmoerhoffman 1 year ago
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 The point is that they were alive at the time. They would have KNOWN for a FACT whether their belief was true or not. Believers today can't, but they COULD. The fact that they refused to recant even to their deaths proves that it is true, because if they knew (which they did) that it was false, they would have given it up.
Don't buy into the bullshit that people would die for a lie. You know that no one would, and you wouldn't either.
dougmoerhoffman 1 year ago
@dougmoerhoffman "Don't buy into the bullshit that people would die for a lie. "
Are you being deliberately dense?
People die for lies every day of the year.
Lies which they BELIEVE to be TRUTH, of course.
Like Islam, Xianity, and many other
religious and political and philosophical lies.
Just before Jesus, Socrates willingly died for his truth,
though many Xians consider his truth to have been a lie.
Right?
Well, duh!
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 @Imaginefree69
Not to mention Galileo. Although he didn't die for his beliefs, he spent the rest of his life under house arrest (only because he recanted) and his work placed on the Index Librorum Prohibitorum by the Catholics and remained there for about 200 years. While we now know his work to be true, religion, because of these passages; Psalm 93-1, Psalm 96-10, 1 Chronicles 16-30, Psalm 104-5, Ecclesiastes 1-5, accused and convicted him of heresy.
axsimulate 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69
Religion was so sure they knew the truth they were willing to take a life and silence a brilliant mind over it, just because they disagreed.
axsimulate 1 year ago
@axsimulate Yes, it happens all the time.
And people die for lies every day of the week.
What an absurd "proof" of religious truth.
These people can't recognize reality any more,
they have been lying and believing lies for too long.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69
They wouldn't know truth if it smacked them up side the head.
axsimulate 1 year ago
@dougmoerhoffman "The fact that they refused to recant even to their deaths proves that it is true"
Childish logic.
It proves nothing,
it only suggests that they BELIEVED it to be truth.
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
@Imaginefree69 He didn't say that once, he said something completely different. You have to be kidding me, I doubt you listened to this video thoroughly, take the pipe-cleaners out of your ears and open your mind.
GuitarGuy22221 1 year ago
@dougmoerhoffman "Believers today can't [know that their religion is true]"
That's a very interesting statement.
So you're not sure, eh?
That increases my respect for you a lot.
You may yet escape into the freedom of reality and reson.
Keep seeking truth!
Imaginefree69 1 year ago
Why did 200 people confess to the Lindbergh baby kidnapping/murder? They were obviously willing to die for a lie.
etherbingedotorg 1 year ago 2
as idontknowwat2type says, the japanese died buy the MILLIONS for the belief that their emporer was a god. they lived at teh same time as he. they saw him. they touched him. they ate with him an died for him. it was obvious he was not a god, but they were delusioned by their own minds. they threw themsleves into combat, never retreated, kamakazied carriers, an refused to surrender even after the first atom bomb. i think the desciple got trumped. at least on taht issue
RealisticSigma 1 year ago
ok, so they are sayin that the desciples wouldnt have died for a lie. that if they knew wat jesus siad was a lie, then they wouldnt have died for him. well, example: Davidian compound. those folks back in the middle of the 20th century who drank poison an died for their leader. a few years ago some religious nuts burned themselves in a church. the whole thing an everyone inside. there have been plenty of times in histiry folks died for a lie. this "evidence" is bullshit.
RealisticSigma 1 year ago
@RealisticSigma
The Branch Davidians burned to death in a church because they believed David Koresh was the Messiah, Jim Jones and his followers drank cyanide laced flavor-aide because they believed all of the lies Jim Jones told them. And don't forget about the Heavens Gate followers that killed themselves to hitch a ride on a comet that was passing by earth at that time before the earth was "cleansed"
axsimulate 1 year ago 2
Essentially what can be deducted is: terrorists must have believed in the truth because they died for it. wow...
urGermanfriend 2 years ago
No! the disciples of Jesus either saw the risen Jesus or stole his body. Religious terrorists have practically have a belief system brainwashed into them.
blamtasticful 2 years ago
i think your totaly missing the point..Terrorist dieing for what they believe is true is far diffrenet then disiples dieing for a lie that they wittnessed(which is what you belive is true). Big diffence. watch the video again till you get it.
TrueTaike 2 years ago
Matthew 16:13-14 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets
When Jesus asked his disciples this question, John the Baptist, Elijah, Jeremiah, and all the OT prophets were dead. This shows the disciples were an ignorant superstitious bunch who would believe any fanciful tale. Ebal
ebaltrace 2 years ago
They told what people tought and not what they think. The fact that Elia comes back is favoured by the Israelites. At the pascha they keep a seat reserved in case Elia comes by. When Jesus shouted Eli Eli Lama Sabachtani they tought He called for Elia to come. El in Elia is God.
Your twisted.
Eskon2 2 years ago