so he kills person for his oun mistake of creating people that can sin. lamb aggment
ansd this guy did what most cristhanss do when posed with a Questhan god loves you. not really he killed hes son for hes mistake punesed someone else for his mistakes aswell as make femalef bear laber becuose of hes oun unjustic then he can not be god.. the aggment is simple if god know about sin then hes killing hes son unjustly aswell as blaming others for hioun mistake if he didnt hes not allknowing simlpe
The death of Christ is not about sin primarily. The death of Christ is first the extolling of God's Person. What would equal God's Nature.? Someone High as God Himself in Holy Character. The Nature of God can only be satisfied by the Nature of God Himself for justice done righteousness imputed. Yes, God revealed Himself through the cross but Christ did not just satisfy sin's offense but all the Nature of God not found in law or the breaking of it.!
@killerproctologist88 These laws are more or less properties of the universe, it isn't that they must follow them its that they are a part of the universe. It wouldn't be a universe if it didn't have those properties. The thing is we never see dictionaries expanding or changing form like the universe or acting strangely, and the universe as I said before doesn't act how we'd like it to unlike a dictionary.
if god's plan went wrong that makes god imperfect or less powerful than his adversary, if he did then i'd question his moral standing which would make him immoral or amoral and if he had no choice then he's a puppet to fate. In any case divine foreknowledge doesn't leave much excuse for mistakes.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence How does it make God less powerful than Satan? Satan tried to be like God, that was his sin, so God kicked him out of heaven with a third of the angels that sided with satan. When satan and his angels sin all they do is separate themselves from God which is the same for humans except we can be forgiven and they can't. This is one of the reasons why we're Gods greatest creations, because through Christ and the Blood of Yeshua the Messiah our sins can be redeemed. Amen.
@killerproctologist88 You missed my point entirely. A god has no excuse for failures or mistakes, if satan can screw up god's plan then god is inept or satan is more or equal to god in power. Not to mention this becomes an omnipotence paradox, and makes god a being without free will guided by his own foreknowledge. The whole martyr thing is just god paying for his own failures to stop a being more powerful than himself which he is responsible for. We humans are chess pieces.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence I disagree. God didn't make the mistake, Satan made it. God was not in control of Satans freewill when he attempted to overthrow God. In order for true love (God) to exist, the possibility of transgression must also be present. Without possible transgression, it is robotic programming. No soul. Angels, Cherubs, and Seraphim are spiritual beings with free will that can and have sinned (except maybe the Seraphim) as a result of abusing their freewill.
@killerproctologist88 If god failed to prevent Satan from corrupting humans then god must be inept, evil, oblivious, weak, or working with satan. If all you need for love is to choose why not make yourself known? Why make your finest creatures without knowledge to begin with? Free will also makes prophecy and foreknowledge impossible, if we are to be truly free god cannot know what we will do before we do it.
@killerproctologist88 Furthermore if god created these angels foreknowing they would turn against them, then why create them at all? Furthermore by saying angels can sin in the presence of god means that there must be evil in heaven if there is free will. This also means means god must have some evil in him as well. So your whole belief begins to fall apart with the free will defense. If we are fated to do things then god has no right to punish us. So which is it fate or free will?
@Requiemxtoxinnocence I would say that you misunderstand. There must be a possibility of evil in order for genuine true love to manifest. If there was no temptation to transgress (evil to God is simply transgressing from His law.) Evil here exists so abundantly because WE let it, not God. So evil only exists if you disobey God even if there is no evil in that realm prior to thatand you have the freewill to do that, as do angelic beings because we humans are made in the likeness of their image.
@killerproctologist88 In that case evil must have always existed with good, if god was ever able to love anything and must be corrupted by evil if he chose to do create the universe. Also I would say evil happens not due to gods absence but because of clashing dreams with good intentions. Using god as your moral compass does not suffice when dealing with evil as god never acts to stop evil and is therefore unrighteous or apathetic to human suffering. Free will destroys prophecies as well.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence Not evil itself, but its possibility. Evil didn't exist until Satan rebelled. As on earth, the tree of knowledge was not itself evil, but the eating of it. God stops evil everyday, you just don't recognize it because you have no faith. God does not stop evil for people that do evil, even if you're a Christian. Why do you think so much evil has visited us? People love not God, for the heart of man is wicked beyond all understanding.
@killerproctologist88 So you are saying god created evil knowingly without realizing the consequences of sending a majority of humanity to hell making humanity's existence futile. This in turn makes god irresponsible by putting blame upon beings he created knowing full well the capability of what they'd be like. This makes god the ultimate evil. How can one love something that will send us to hell, and blame us for the misfortunes we were created with?
@Requiemxtoxinnocence No, you are trying to compartmentalize God into your humanistic ways. This is not possible. Humans existence is not futile, believe it or not God created you so that God might share his love with you. Life is a gift, not a curse. The only curse is ignorance of Godliness which we bring upon ourselves. Man is without excuse, and God is no respecter of persons. We were not created sinful, we became that way because of Adam and Eve chose to eat the forbidden fruit.
@killerproctologist88 So god created humans for his ego? Human existence is futile if a majority of humanity is going to hell and even Jesus says so, so this whole entire plan is flawed. We are ignorant of what god is because we have no real proof of it, we have multiple religions that all have different ideas on this undefined being. I also have to say blaming the whole of humanity over 2 people is completely unjustified especially over something as important as knowledge.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence God created humans to share His love. You undervalue humans with your view, just as Hitler did, just as Nero did, as Stalin did. The one thing you have in common with those men is you hate God. We are not ignorant of God but by our own will. Your will is in a sense sovereign, in a sense we are all mini Gods because we are empowered by our freewill which is a gift from Him. If you want to know who God is, read about Jesus. Jesus IS God. That is how we know His character!
@killerproctologist88 How can I undervalue humans when we are finite beings and valuable in that we will never exist again? I don't hate god, I can't comprehend god or see no evidence of him. I lack the evidence to say this thing exists, your reasoning is also very circular. I also think you shouldn't compare me with the likes of mass murderers, when you yourself worship a god that supposedly killed billions. I have never killed anyone for that denies human values.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence The problem with your doctrine is that it's very, very, easy to slip into a very self centered view of life if there is no life after this one. If there is no life after this, what stops one from being completely and utterly selfish? By that standard, everyone is better served obtaining whatever they can for themselves since this is all there is and all there ever will be then pretty soon people are behaving like animals.
@killerproctologist88 The reason this view is not self centered is because of our self reliance upon everything else around us. We rely upon other humans, animals, the sun, the plants for this coexistence which is valuable because its finite. This whole system is based off the antithesis of selfish nature, and guess what we humans are animals. We are higher animals privileged enough to experience every waking moment to better the world around us before our inevitable decline.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence But what would stop you from manipulating the use of others for your own gain if we're all just programmed animals and we are only accountable for actions in the most relative sense of self? People naturally take advantage of others for their own gain, and with your belief your own gain comes before others gain even if you're reliant on their services.
You are a relativist with only a brief glimpse of a moral framework. Truth isn't any more relative than 2+2=4.
@killerproctologist88 Your question is horrible, society is based upon humans working for other humans for gain if we didn't do this we'd have complete anarchy. Not to mention our reliance on everything else means we must care for them.
I'd say my morals are constructive not relative, our morals are based on a number of factors survival, societal benefits, science, well being of others, emotion, nature, reason..just to name a few.
@killerproctologist88 Your views on life make it worth nothing, you've placed all value on god and nothing on the world around you. You are worshipping the embodiment of nothingness and giving it praise so you can live on forever eternally which is completely pointless. You deny your humanity and reason for this instead of accepting humanity for what it is and living in the moment.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence God did not create evil, he created this possibility to disobey Him so you could experience genuine love, which can only come from God. Without a possibility of transgression, you do not know God. Which as I have already said, is a curse. In human terms, it's a bit like "tough love." Sometimes you have to do things that seem bad at the time, to bring about a greater good later. All things work for good for those who love God. Basically, God knows, and you don't.
@killerproctologist88 If he did this knowing the full consequences then this love isn't worth it. If this great good causes the majority of humanity to be in agony eternally then the ends do not justify the means, which means it'd be best if humanity never existed. These are all the actions we'd expect to see from a well intentioned extremist who puts the few before the many.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence You type as if you assume every consequence is not a just judgment by a loving God. You reap what you sow, it's that simple. You transgress, God looks the other way. I'm sorry if living in a world where there's consequences for your actions isn't politically correct enough for you, but this is reality.
@killerproctologist88 I'm just pointing out the flaws in this perfect divine plan. I do believe we should own for our actions yet god never does. I am perfectly fine with consequences but what I am saying is you aren't living in reality by believing in this, you hold onto an illusion out of fear of death. People suffer horribly and god crosses his arms and shrugs, its business as usual for him and he intends to let it happen all for his own ego.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence This plan is only flawed if you don't understand God. I don't believe in God out of fear, that would not be genuine belief. I believe in God because I see evidence of Him everywhere. What do you think man deserves?
@killerproctologist88 No the plan is flawed because humans don't know which god to believe nor have genuine knowledge of this thing, and the consequences of not believing this is going to hell because according to you they aren't christians. This means a majority of the world is doomed and this is god's perfect plan? Man deserves much better, but I think all we can do is accept our fate and love it.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence I respectfully disagree. Knowledge of God is seared on the heart of every human being that is able to comprehend. Therefor, the ignorance is willful so we WISH to believe in things that are not of God because it suits us better. Lets face it, we like to be sinful and some of us would rather believe in a deity that allows us to sin without consequence rather than one that holds us accountable and these days that's most people.
@killerproctologist88 Really now, how can that be true with so many conflicting theological ideas? We can hardly grasp our own universe yet you think we can somehow understand something far more complex just by intuition. That's laughable. The reason we are accountable is because we understand consequence and actions, god never comes into contact with that and again you deny human nature for your special god.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence Human nature is to sin and hate God. I try to deny sin because I love God. I know this concept is foreign to you, but I do not conform to things that tickle the human ego. We can't understand God with our limited brains no, but existence itself is a window into His divine nature. How do you explain guilt and shame even if you don't believe in sin?
@killerproctologist88 So you are saying you are inhuman? I don't conform to things over my ego, I question them and look for answers and doubt. Could you explain how the universe is somehow a window? Guilt and shame is human nature which I don't deny unlike you, its what we humans emote when we feel we've made a mistake. It's really not that hard to explain at all.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence I assure you, I am quite human. I'm tempted to sin by the same things you are being a Christian doesn't really change that. The universe is a window because through our fallen nature we can behold the glory of God. I speak of the infinite universe, the perfect balance of nature, the perfect balance of everything, the perfection of math...it's a miracle and a testament of intelligent design. When you see evidence of intelligence you do not assume unintelligence.
@killerproctologist88 math isn't perfect, and the universe acts very very strange and not as we'd like to perceive. I could also point out numerous problems for us in this universe especially when everything is trying to kill us and potentially can at a moments notice. Sometimes things that appear created are not, and ID is not falsifiable or testable so its useless scientifically and will tell us nothing of our universe.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence How is math not perfect? 2+2=4 is a law. That does not change, like God. Just because problems exist doesn't mean God isn't here. You forget that God originally made everything perfect, and the universe didn't start going down the toilet until Satan tried to be like God. The Bible does not say whether or not God knew Satan was going to sin because this conflict happened before time existed. It's impossible to answer in our minds.
@killerproctologist88 math is incomplete, and you are just dealing in basic math with non-abstract things math can also change with certain factors like if you have larger values of 2 you will get a higher number. for instance 2.90 +2.90 = 5. Right why should I believe any of this? Why blame satan when god created the guy knowing he'd screw up his plan? All this means to me is god is controlled by fate and satan is free willed chaos. Your god is imperfect as fare as I can tell.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence God sees it all at once. Like I already said, the end result of this is God wins and everything returns to paradise. Where will the nay sayers be then?
@killerproctologist88 You presume god wins, but if satan could easily corrupt humans then it won't be a problem to just screw up god's plan like before. Not to mention a higher power being that knows what god is and knows his plan would be easier to counter. This whole plan is flawed.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence It's only flawed if you don't think God is going to win, which He will. Love beats evil already and the end hasn't even come yet! God allows Satan to corrupt humans only if they sin. God is in control of Satan. Noah's Ark illustrates this perfectly. Satan was trying to corrupt the blood lines of men with his fallen angels because he knew the Messiah (Jesus) was going to be born sometime in the future. But God trumped Satan by killing all the evil Nephilim and Noah floated
@killerproctologist88 If god cannot stop satan like he did before I would expect him to fail to do so again, and it appears as though he couldn't do it meaning satan is of equal or greater power. That was a perfect example of god's failure, he couldn't stop the angels before hand meaning he doesn't know everything or isn't all powerful. Furthermore the generations after failed too making the entire endeavor futile.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence God can stop Satan and He has by sending Jesus to die on the cross. Basically, Satan though he'd won when he crucified the Messiah, but actually God won because now Satan can't take every soul to hell. God had to punish Satan for transgression, so he kicked him out of heaven. I fail to see how Satan won?
@killerproctologist88 But Satan still takes more to hell anyway regardless of your martyr because of all the people that have lived most have not been christians. So god didn't win anything, he just created a loophole in his own screwed up plan which he planned out in the first place. No matter how you look at it, this sacrifice isn't enough. God is being lead on by fate while satan does whatever he wishes chaotically and freely.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence Do you even know what it takes to get saved? All it takes is faith in Jesus Christ, there are a lot more saved people than you might think. His sacrifice is enough to get ANYONE saved so it is enough.
@killerproctologist88 I'm talking about the whole of the world here, jesus only appeared in a very small country a few thousand years ago and only later did his message reach out to the other parts of the world. homo sapiens have been around for 250,000 years so just think of all who are roasting because yahweh took so long and still hasn't reached many places on earth.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence According to the Bible, this stage of earth (the version where man exists) is only about 9,500 years old. But that is beside the point. That stanza of earth was different (Old Testament) and the Jews (Christians of the day) were spoken to by YAH personally. So the gospel was around at the early stages of human history, and just like now most people foolishly denied God. But like you, are without excuse.
@killerproctologist88 HAHAHHA you're a young earth creationist, I've taken a geology class and know how they measure the age of the earth and you are completely wrong. Many civilizations thought they had revelations from gods and we know humans try to find agency in what they don't understand. As far as i'm concerned I don't know god, perhaps if he shows up i'll accept him if he is good. But Yahweh is not that perfect god.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence God can stop Satan from doing anything, you fail to understand God uses Satan to execute his Judgments upon the unrightious because HE KNEW they would be sinful so THAT is why God allowed Satan to sin so He could use him to judge sinful angels and men.
@killerproctologist88 Obviously not he didn't stop the corruption of humanity, angels producing with humans, idol worshipping of other tribes, ect. From your view we are but pawns in a celestial feud, and no one in this game really has many options. In your view perfect good allows for perfect evil to destroy everything only to attempt to stop it with a sacrifice that won't save the majority. There is no winner in this conflict.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence We are the pawns while at the same time our choices are all that matter. God allows Satan to do evil only as much as we transgress from the laws of God. Perfect good allows evil to destroy they that are evil. God wants every soul yes, but He won't because of people like you that have hardened their heart from the truth that you are a sinner and you need to be saved.
@killerproctologist88 I am no pawn to either actually, i'm an agnostic but certainly open tot he idea of gods if there is any proof. God allowing evil makes god imperfect himself. Why should I be saved from a god that cannot allow me or any other another choice apart from heaven or hell? Who would allow for evil to roam free unchecked. I ask for a third option.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence Nothing works without love. In order to experience true love, there HAS to be evil. Otherwise we would not be able to distinguish between the two (good and evil) thus sincere true unconditional love would not ever be experienced by human beings. That would be hell on earth my friend and as bad as it can be here, it's never as bad as hell actually is.
@killerproctologist88 Love works based upon two interactions between two beings that can understand one another and care for them, who are there for one another until the end. Your god has none of these aspects and evil is not a part of it at all. The fact that god allows hell to exist and allow for people to be there is testament to his own evil. Love also doesn't threaten, nor put them in a place with no options. God is not love but evil and nothingness who rules with an iron fist.
@killerproctologist88 Funny you claim I made stuff up when you said the earth was less than 4.5 billion years old as proven by your holy book. Thanks for the conversation.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence@killerproctologist88 wait wait sorry but to add in 2 cents, haha. Requie, it seems like you're slightly missing the point. It's like a wife. If you bought you wife flowers just because it was tuesday, she would love you and love it. But if you bought them and told her that you "had" to because she is your wife....she wouldn't accept that as loving. That is religion not love. Ok, sorry to bring yall back. I just wanted to say that. Ok bye
@ebj1871 The only thing you are missing in your analogy is that if the woman didn't accept your flowers you would torture her forever until she said she loved you, while in another scenario if I had to buy her flowers she could choose to accept them or not but still know I loved her regardless with no consequence.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence You must understand, by denying sin you bring yourself closer to God. Thus, you are better off. People seal their own fate by denying God. The penalty for sin is death, thus every man dies (we're all sinners.) The only way you don't go to hell is just by acknowledging who you are (a sinner) and the only way you don't go to hell is by accepting Jesus.
@killerproctologist88 You want me to deny my innate human nature for something I know nothing about? I told you before I can't comprehend god, it might exist but there is no reason to suggest it exists. Auto damnation over human nature is evil, in that case god is responsible for making us this way and is torturing us over the way he made us which is circular. Why accept Jesus? Buddha was far wiser and Jesus's teachings aren't exactly new.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence No reason to suggest God exists? Ok, when you open a dictionary, you see that it has every word spelled right and in alphabetical order. I would hope that you are smart enough not to assume that that dictionary came together by accident in a printing press explosion someplace. But for some reason when it comes to the perfection of balance in the earth and universe, people illogically assume chaos? Why?
@killerproctologist88 A dictionary is not a biological organism or a universe. There are certain factors that provide us reasons to suggest that we aren't intelligently designed nor that our universe is. I also never said chaos, but this is our only observable universe why factor in that its perfect when we have no other universes to observe. But you just keep jumping to these conclusions out of a presupposed belief.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence Metaphors are used to describe the same context from a different source. Saying, "oh the universe isn't a book" doesn't refute my point at all.
@killerproctologist88 I'm aware what metaphors are, but a book is not relatable to something that changes like the universe and us. So your point stays refuted.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence The universe may change, just as new additions to a dictionary may change. But there is always a constant in which both can be described. My point is not refuted at all.
@killerproctologist88 A universe may be complex but that doesn't mean its orderly, and you presume its like a dictionary. Except dictionaries aren't abstract things, they are objective. You completely missed my refutation of your example because you don't understand this.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence There are laws this universe MUST abide by no? Like the law of motion, of gravity etc etc. These are abstract laws of the universe are they not? Just like a dictionary must have laws, correct spelling, alphabetical etc.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence You are not automatically damned. You obviously have never read the Bible and if you have you have failed to comprehend it. The Bible is Gods manual for His people. You wanna learn about God? Go by yourself an Authorized 1611 King James Bible.
@killerproctologist88 Actually you are, if you die not as a christian in your belief you burn for eternity no exceptions. You either accept this faith or suffer, god has no third options. I've also read the bible, and its probably one of the most facepalm induced barbaric ridiculous absurd luniacal books i've ever read.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence You think of it that way because that's what you wanted to read when you read it. Just know that in the end, God wins and paradise will be regained. But in order for that to happen, people must suffer. All the heathen sees is the suffering. I see His inevitable glory and triumph over sin, evil, and Satan because I have faith. He that does not sees only suffering, for that the spirit grieves.
@killerproctologist88 funny you accuse me of not interpreting it correctly when there are vast sects of christianity that all disagree with one another. Who knows I might be right, there is no proper way to read the bible. You have your thoughts and dreams in the clouds, mine are grounded on earth to make this world a better place. It's horrible that you think your own selfish reward is more important than those who suffer for it, you obviously don't care about humanity.
@Requiemxtoxinnocence Who are you to decide what humanity deserves? Is your ego really that big? The penalty for transgression is death my friend. It is only by His love for us that we can save ourselves, but He hold us accountable to humble ourselves because otherwise belief in Him would be robotic and fake.
@killerproctologist88 When I hear of thousands suffering i'd like to think we life forms deserve not to. It's not my ego talking its the fact that I care for other life forms other than myself, god is the egotistical one here. Again his love isn't worth it if billions will suffer eternally, i'd never wish that to happen all because god is alone and couldn't instead just make himself another god to love.
Only the one that love sin and will not turn from sinning , God will destroy.Because I was born a sinner you were born a sinner but God took me out and is now leading me to perfection and he can do the same for you if you sincerely ask him
WE CAN NOT OVER CAME SIN WITH OUT GOD
1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
IT IS GOD IN US THAT OVERCOMES THE WORLD NO MAN CAN DO IT ON HIS OWN
Of course God's plan was for all mankind to fall in the flesh in Adam. Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world in God's eternal plan hidden in Christ. Would God plan for Jesus to be crucified before the foundation of the world if there was no sin in the plan of God?? God has not lost control. EVERYTHING is happening ACCORDING TO PLAN.
downtoawhisper, read romans 9 vs 16 through 21 it specifically adresses your humanistic view of what God should be like, and yes we are all sinful from birth genesis 8 vs 21.
So in Piper's eyes, God made us all sinful, yet we are still guilty. But doesn't guilt mean that there was a choice? And if we're just born in sin, where is the choice to transgress the law...where is the responsibility on the sinner's part?
Furthermore, God hates sin..."The boastful cannot stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity" (Psalms 5:5). Why would God create us into something He hates...and then punish us when we have no choice in the matter?
@downtoawhisper Because He so willed. When it comes down to it -- it comes down to can God do as He wills with His creation?? Is God so magnificent that He doesn't fit in anyone's box of what a "nice God" would be like?? But, rather, He is God ruling and reigning over all creation -- and worthy to be feared?? You see, He has many enemies who would love Him if He was their friend on THEIR TERMS. But, will you be God's friend on HIS TERMS?? Will you worship the God of Providence?
@downtoawhisperSo in Piper's eyes, God made us all sinful, yet we are still guilty.Not in Piper's eyes but God said it. Romans 11:32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
@GrizzlyMonkey15 Perhaps he is. I'm not familiar with him. However, if Ravi Zacharias will not bend his knees before God and worship Him who sits on the Throne who made all of us for His own pleasure -- who rules and reigns absolutely -- if he's not a MILITANT CHRISTIAN who will SURRENDER to the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD -- he's a wimp. You know, Michael the archangel is a mighty angel who fully submits to God's Sovereign will and fulfills all God's commands. Like a CENTURION SOLDIER OF THE CROSS.
@AegeanKing, not really. I think people should read the Bible for themselves and use theologians sermons as references to increase their understanding. In no way am I underestimating theology. It is just that it becomes dangerous when people start to follow a certain theology more than they follow the Bible, now that is how cults get started.
@DarthLin U can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say. You can say lets just read the Bible instead of listening to calvin or arminian but then you are just reducing everything to biblical relativism. Thats how cults get started.
You must understand, it is because of hundreds and hundreds of years of the tradition of scripture that Calvinism and Arminianism exist. No one made it up to sound important.
If one were to go back to only reading scripture and seeking to actually understand it, he would find himself in one or the other category (or between them).
Neither of them are bad. Both very respectable. There are obstinate angry Arminians and there are obstinate and angry Calvinists. They're people.
Well, both are right. As long as they emphasize the truth that there is half a glass of water.
However, if they try to influence people into believing that either "glass is half full, or the glass is half empty". Then they are both wrong, because they are wrapping the truth that the glass is half full with their own perceptions.
People forget that, both Calvinism and Arminianism are human theology, both are human interpretation of the Bible. It is not wise for people to preach the Bible with focus to influence people into a certain theological belief other than the Bible.
@patrckhh20, are you saying that God actively put sin into his plan before creation? Are you saying that God is the author of sin? The Bible, has never said God is the author is sin, which only lead to death. The Bible, said God is the author of life. So what do you mean by not true?
Every time I listen to John Piper's sermons, I always get a feeling that everything he preaches he is inclined more towards his Calvinistic theology and double predestination theology more than the Bible. It's almost like he is telling half truth to back up his own opinions, theology and opinions rather than preaching Biblical truth.. And sometimes he says things that is just not Biblical at all..
@MnSspictures, I agree that God already knew it would happen. What John Piper should have said, was that God "permitted" sin to happen, and because God is sovereign over sin, and our sinful wills, God has a plan to bring creation back to Himself through the suffering of Jesus Christ. There is a difference between God "actively" put sin into creation as a part of His plan, and God "permitting" sin and has a plan for salvation.. I think the idea that God "put" sin as a part of His plan is wrong
Oh no! Piper presumes to know God's plan then tells us not to try and figure out God totally!! ummmmm isn't that what you just did?! You quote from Paul on the incomprehensibility of God's ways, yet he adheres to Calvinism which removes any kind of mystery from God's nature. He then mocks 'wimpy Christians". Yet he is the one who has anthropomorphized God. To Piper God is merciful and wrathful and hateful depending on his mood at any given time and on who you are....
@brendos444 ... Of course, only those like Piper will be saved. All the others are "wimps". And his God is not a wimp, by which he means totally loving and merciful to all, not just the "elect". This man is pitiful. No wonder Christianity gets such a bad name.
@brendos444 Christianity gets a bad name by people who pick and choose attributes of God to glorify and deny, and pick and choose which parts of the Bible they feel comfortable with and throw away the rest.
The whole Bible (Gen--Rev) is inspired and sufficient for learning about God and His character like as much as God is Love He is also Righteous, Wrathful, Holy, Merciful, Faithful, Powerful, All Knowing, Good, Immutable, Just, Truthful, Wise, and Sovereign.
@brendos444 Oh no! Brendos presumes that john piper is stating that he knows Gods plan and that somehow agreeing with some calvanist theology somehow removes the mystery of God! how do you get to that presumption exactly?!! Is it not possible to be merciful and wrathful if by nature you are totally loving and Righteous. I seriously hope He is both, a righteous judge is what this world needs!
Not sure I agree that God 'planned' the fall and sin in His original design for Creation. But I agree w/ Pastor John and many others about the solution or remedy to our problem, that's what counts! Jesus is the answer for the world's problems today and every ache and pain of this messed up world, this I think we can all agree as believers..
this is all wrong, sin never existed becuase that was never part of GODs will or thought at any time sin is a transgression of GODs will adam and eve were created good and perfect but, once they transgressed the cosmic order (GODs will) sin was born which gave birth to the law which was the source of sins power since it gave the knowledge of what evil is.
@doctorw2 2 Timothy 1:9: "[God] saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages begin." So God gave us grace before Genesis 1:1 ever occurred. Before anything existed, before any world was created, grace was given to us in Christ Jesus. What is grace? Grace is a response to sin. Therefore, God's plan, from before the foundation of the world, included sin because it included grace.
@clayhutchins grace is umerited favour a love that can not be gained by someones effforts, adam and eve were sinless becuase they did not know what good and evil was when they were created sin did not exist becuase where there is no transgression there is no sin. GOD gave us grace becuase he did not want us to die in sin seperated from him eternaly because he is compassionate and mercifull. GODs will never included sin at any time grace was given as a tool of salvation.
@doctorw2 I would encourage you to meditate more on the implications that 2 Timothy 1:9 has. They are massive. I am troubled by your statement, "God's will never included sin at any time." There are many biblical examples of God willing and ordaining sin. I encourage you to look these up: Acts 4:27-28; Rev 17:16-17; 2 Thess 2:8-13; Ex 9:12; 10:20, 27; 11:10; 14:4; Deut 2:26-30; Josh 11:19-20; Rom 11:7-9; Mark 4:11-12; 1 Sam 2:22-25; 2 Sam 24:1. These texts show that God can and does will sin.
@clayhutchins no these verses do not show GOD willed sin quite the contrary, they show the price for transgression if a person chooses to rebel against GOD do you not think GOD would know that before hand? there is a thing called election and preordination GOD is not limited to time he forknows everything but, that does not mean he wills sin to be if that were the case then GOD would be acting against his own nature GOD hates sin and evil.
@doctorw2 These verses, if you stop and meditate on them, do actually show quite plainly that God does will that sin would occur. For instance, God willed that Jesus' death. "It was the will of the Lord to crush him" (Is 53:10). God willed that the death of Jesus would occur - but yet, this could not have occurred apart from sin. It is an extremely sinful thing to crucify the Son of Man. It came about by betrayal, abandonment, false accusation, and murder - and God willed all of these sins.
@clayhutchins no, you misunderstand that verse which is connected to john 3:16 GOD sent jesus as a sacrificial substitute for sin since the wages of sin is death and GOD wanted to save mankind from the penalty of sin which is death thats why the hebrew torah permited animal sacrifice they were used to atone for sins but, they could only provide a temporary absolution for sin. Jesus sacrifice was ordained by GOD to be a perpetual atonement for sin for all times.
@doctorw2 I agree with everything you just said, and I see no contradiction between John 3:16 and Acts 4:28. Here, let's go to a different, more straightforward, example. The sons of Eli were having sex with the women who served at the tent of meeting, and Eli tried to convince them to repent and to stop, but the text says that "they would not listen to the voice of their father, for it was the will of the LORD to put them to death" (1 Sam 2:25). Why didn't they repent? God wanted to kill them.
@clayhutchins they commited a very serious transgression and these sons of eli had hearts that were unrepentant so GOD wanted to kill them GOD does not grant grace to obstinate sinners who are set in their ways becuase like i said GOD hates sin and as jesus taught all people you must repent or die in your sins.
@clayhutchins no, you dont understand what im saying, GOD did not will that the sons of eli sin and die he only willed that they die becuase they sinned had they repented of their ways GOD would not have been set on killing them.
@doctorw2 It is true that if they would have repented, God would have not killed them. However, the fact of the matter is, they did not repent. Why didn't they? 1 Samuel 2:25 says that the reason they did not repent is because God wanted to kill them. So why didn't they heed the voice of their father and turn from their sin? Answer: "It was the will of the Lord to put them to death." That is why. The reason why they didn't repent is because God wanted to kill them.
@clayhutchins no they didnt repent becuase they didnt want to, thats why they did not listen to their father they wanted to keep on sinning so thats why GOD was intent on killing them.
@doctorw2 You are right, but 1 Samuel 2:25 goes further. You know that right? I'm not making this stuff up, it's there in scripture. "They would not listen to the voice of their father - " Why? Why not? Why didn't they listen? " - FOR it was the will of the Lord to put them to death" (1 Sam 2:25). You don't have a problem with what I'm saying. You have a problem with that verse.
@clayhutchins no i dont, you misunderstand what the verse is saying its teaching you this when you have a willfull heart to sin then GODs will decrees that you should be put to death they didnt listen to their father becuase their sin had already put a death sentence upon them.
@doctorw2 What you are describing is this: "God desired to put the son of Eli to death because they were unrepentant." That is a true statement. God did desire to put them to death because they were disobedient - that's true. It's just not what this verse says. This verse says exactly the opposite: "The sons of Eli were unrepentant because God desired to put them to death." What you have been saying is the exact opposite of what 1 Samuel 2:25 says. This verse says it the other way around.
Satan is called the "prince of the power of the air" in Ephesians 2:2. He is also called the "ruler of this world" in John 12:31.
This is one of the reasons we are all sinners. If we were not to sin we would be like robots doing what god tells us to do. Yet still if we didn't sin we would still be like filthy rags before god.
The reason there exist pain,and sadness in the world is,because human's consume and eat dead meat,animal's which are dead.It will better for human's to consume ,-alive animal's or not to eat meat at all.No wonder humanity its going down under.....!
So if I'm interpreting correctly... God's plan included sin before he created a single living being to make a choice to sin, yet God is completely innocent and human beings are entirely guilty?
@Taxicab3 Yep. Don't like it, then by all means, do something about. Put God on trial, if you can. If you think yourself able, hold Him to account for the things you've done, because hey, man is the victim in all of this, right?
Sin isn't something unfortunate that happened to man, it's something we did, and although it was preordained that it would occur, we are still the very ones who sinned. We are guilty. We are born enemies of God and children of the devil. We are not victims.
@Doulos7608 Luckily, I don't subscribe to this warped interpretation of Christianity so there is no need for a trial. This would be the same logic as holding the actors in a play responsible for the bad screenwriting. If I did believe that, then I probably would have to put God on trial. I believe He is big enough to handle the simple questions of man and is not drawn to fury or even offended just by humanity asking questions.
@Taxicab3 Are you really that much of a blind, arrogant fool? Who do you think you are? Was it your hand that formed the mountains and spread out the heavens like a tent? Does your holiness exceed that of the worms under the earth? Do you have the wisdom of a man? Are you powerful enough that you think you could subdue the Creator and He would submitt to you and make a covenant with you? You are just a man, and death will reach out its hand to you and to the dust you will return.
@Doulos7608 Geez, calm down brother. No, I don't think I could "subdue" the creator. I believe that the Creator is just. Don't fool yourself, we all put God on trial. We all have to make a decision on whether His ways are "Just." I don't believe God hates this process, but welcomes it. It has nothing to do with thinking I am greater than God. It has to do with the process of discovering the Truth of who God is.
@Taxicab3 But it is exactly that. The underlying principle that forbids God to be the cause of all events is not reverence but self-worship. If God must adhere to -your- standard in order to remain righteous, then in your thinking, he is not God, but you are.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of his will,
@Taxicab3 You are only an effect of the Ultimate Cause, a created thing. And no created thing has the authority to say to the one that molded it, "Why did you make me like this?" Has not the potter right over the clay? Mankind is not all of God's children. We are born His enemies, with the devil as our father, and we love to do his work. Mercy is unmeritted kindness, do not forget this. It is ill-deserved.
@Doulos7608 Again, you are speaking to me as if I agree with your original premise that God planned for Sin to be in the world from the beginning. I don't believe that. I take full responsibility of my sin, knowing that God had no intention of me living the way that I do. Because of this I know that I desperately need his mercy and forgiveness and I praise him daily for the grace that He gives me. I know it is ill-deserved. No argument there.
He is not the author of sin. But in making people willing to choose freely he new sin would enter! If he had not given us the availability of takig decisions hew would not take all the Glory because then we would have been like robots!
@jrcandelaria20 Who was it that created the heavens and the earth, and all that is in them? Who created the Garden of Eden and placed every plant and animal in the place of His own choosing? Who was it that placed man in an environment that would lead to his fall into sin?
@jrcandelaria20 What's more, just saying "if all is predestined then we are just robots" doesn't prove your position to be true, it just proves that you don't think it's fair. If the power of the cross to save lies in your own free will, if the power of the sacrifice of God's Son lies in whether or not you "accept" Jesus, then how does it not boil down to the glory ultimately being yours for your own salvation? In what way were your works not involved?
@Doulos7608 Yes he is creator of all no doubt. Unless you are a hypercalvinist you will say God created sin. Creating sin and Him willing sin to enter the world are different things. God is Holy and doesn't make anyone fall into temptation that is our own doing.. He willed it alright but he did not plant that in your heart. Yes he can test our hearts but He doesn't tell you to do it. I'm not talking about freewill concerning salvation I know he predestined his children. He is never unjust.
@jrcandelaria20 He is never unjust. This is true, He is pure and holy in all that He does. But read the following passages. Read Isaiah 45:7, " I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things." Now the Hebrew word translated as "calamity" in English is "ra" (רָ֑ע Strong's 7451), which means disaster, calamity, but also is the same word that is translated as "wicked" or moral evil.
@Doulos7608 Yes and I agree. He does what he wants and can cause calamity using whatever he wants causing destruction, but He does not make you sin. James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. God Bless!
@jrcandelaria20 Believing that God is the ultimate cause of all things, even sin, does not make one a hyper-calvinist. And even so, say a man is the manufacturer of a product that is used in every single house in the world. Let's call these things widgets. Now the man is the creator of all widgets. Is he a widget, or to be confused with his creation or what it does? Of course not.
@jrcandelaria20 Curious, when Christians get to heaven will they have the choice/availability of sinning? Being a robot for eternity doesn't sound like a situation I want to be in.
@ndjarnag Hello, when we get into heaven we will be free of sin. Sin will exist no more. We will be in complete perfection because our bodies will be glorified as Jesus is. 1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
@jrcandelaria20 Thanks for the reply. So it seems there will be no more free will in heaven. That could be a good or bad thing depending on how you look at it.
@jrcandelaria20 Define the word "tempt". If you mean that God will never issue a command, and then tell someone, "Hey, disobey Me. It'll be awesome", then I agree with you. If, however, you mean that God doesn't send evil spirit to tempt men, then I have to disagree with you based upon what's written in 1 Chronicles 21:1 and 2 Samuel 24:1. God uses secondary causes to accomplish His purpose when it pleases Him.
@Doulos7608 Where speaking about different things. Im not saying he doesn't send evil spirits. Even paul had a evil spirit sent by God to control his pride in 2 Corinthians 12:8. I'm saying God is Holy and does not have evil in him because he hates sin. So if he hates sin and curses sinners it's impossible to make God responsible of something that people do by their own doing. If God makes me sin then it means he is not holy. And we know that's not true!
@jrcandelaria20 “Let it be unequivocally said that this view certainly makes God the cause of sin. God is the sole ultimate cause of everything. There is absolutely nothing independent of Him. He alone is the eternal being. He alone is omnipotent. He alone is sovereign.” Gordon Clark, God and Evil pg. 38
@Doulos7608 I'm not in for what Gordon Clarck can say. I'm for what God in his word declares. And if he says he doesn't tempt anyone I believe him! I believe he willed it to happen and I believe he had a purpose, the same way he uses satan for his will. But he doesn't plant it in me. Because then eventually your telling me he is the cause of my sin. No way!!!
@jrcandelaria20 Ultimately, yes. Nothing exists apart from him and nothing happens which is not by his decree. At the same time, however, he cannot be held as responsible for the sins that we commit.
I have a problem with God being the author of sin. I find it problematic from a biblical perspective to say the least. That's why it's Molonism and Middle Knowledge for the win baby!
But I'm still a Piper fan because I believe in regeneration not decisionism. Keep at it brother Piper!
if this is how God is then i will willfully go to hell because this means that God created most people specifically to be tortured for all of eternity.
@nwpspwns Well...God has a grip on me and I couldn't let go if I wanted to even with all of this...jeesh I don't want to be a Calvinist, but it is very much increasingly so...Even Arminians I've talked to believe God knows who's going to heaven or hell as of now. I still pray for salvation of my friends/old friends.
@AvantGrapes Thats great! Just know that God is just and is beyond all our understanding. The God who created justice is going to know justice and we just have to believe Him :)
so he kills person for his oun mistake of creating people that can sin. lamb aggment
ansd this guy did what most cristhanss do when posed with a Questhan god loves you. not really he killed hes son for hes mistake punesed someone else for his mistakes aswell as make femalef bear laber becuose of hes oun unjustic then he can not be god.. the aggment is simple if god know about sin then hes killing hes son unjustly aswell as blaming others for hioun mistake if he didnt hes not allknowing simlpe
rudeboywaz 2 weeks ago
The death of Christ is not about sin primarily. The death of Christ is first the extolling of God's Person. What would equal God's Nature.? Someone High as God Himself in Holy Character. The Nature of God can only be satisfied by the Nature of God Himself for justice done righteousness imputed. Yes, God revealed Himself through the cross but Christ did not just satisfy sin's offense but all the Nature of God not found in law or the breaking of it.!
polopowers1 1 month ago 2
@killerproctologist88 These laws are more or less properties of the universe, it isn't that they must follow them its that they are a part of the universe. It wouldn't be a universe if it didn't have those properties. The thing is we never see dictionaries expanding or changing form like the universe or acting strangely, and the universe as I said before doesn't act how we'd like it to unlike a dictionary.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
if god's plan went wrong that makes god imperfect or less powerful than his adversary, if he did then i'd question his moral standing which would make him immoral or amoral and if he had no choice then he's a puppet to fate. In any case divine foreknowledge doesn't leave much excuse for mistakes.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence How does it make God less powerful than Satan? Satan tried to be like God, that was his sin, so God kicked him out of heaven with a third of the angels that sided with satan. When satan and his angels sin all they do is separate themselves from God which is the same for humans except we can be forgiven and they can't. This is one of the reasons why we're Gods greatest creations, because through Christ and the Blood of Yeshua the Messiah our sins can be redeemed. Amen.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 You missed my point entirely. A god has no excuse for failures or mistakes, if satan can screw up god's plan then god is inept or satan is more or equal to god in power. Not to mention this becomes an omnipotence paradox, and makes god a being without free will guided by his own foreknowledge. The whole martyr thing is just god paying for his own failures to stop a being more powerful than himself which he is responsible for. We humans are chess pieces.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence I disagree. God didn't make the mistake, Satan made it. God was not in control of Satans freewill when he attempted to overthrow God. In order for true love (God) to exist, the possibility of transgression must also be present. Without possible transgression, it is robotic programming. No soul. Angels, Cherubs, and Seraphim are spiritual beings with free will that can and have sinned (except maybe the Seraphim) as a result of abusing their freewill.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 If god failed to prevent Satan from corrupting humans then god must be inept, evil, oblivious, weak, or working with satan. If all you need for love is to choose why not make yourself known? Why make your finest creatures without knowledge to begin with? Free will also makes prophecy and foreknowledge impossible, if we are to be truly free god cannot know what we will do before we do it.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 Furthermore if god created these angels foreknowing they would turn against them, then why create them at all? Furthermore by saying angels can sin in the presence of god means that there must be evil in heaven if there is free will. This also means means god must have some evil in him as well. So your whole belief begins to fall apart with the free will defense. If we are fated to do things then god has no right to punish us. So which is it fate or free will?
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence I would say that you misunderstand. There must be a possibility of evil in order for genuine true love to manifest. If there was no temptation to transgress (evil to God is simply transgressing from His law.) Evil here exists so abundantly because WE let it, not God. So evil only exists if you disobey God even if there is no evil in that realm prior to thatand you have the freewill to do that, as do angelic beings because we humans are made in the likeness of their image.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 In that case evil must have always existed with good, if god was ever able to love anything and must be corrupted by evil if he chose to do create the universe. Also I would say evil happens not due to gods absence but because of clashing dreams with good intentions. Using god as your moral compass does not suffice when dealing with evil as god never acts to stop evil and is therefore unrighteous or apathetic to human suffering. Free will destroys prophecies as well.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence Not evil itself, but its possibility. Evil didn't exist until Satan rebelled. As on earth, the tree of knowledge was not itself evil, but the eating of it. God stops evil everyday, you just don't recognize it because you have no faith. God does not stop evil for people that do evil, even if you're a Christian. Why do you think so much evil has visited us? People love not God, for the heart of man is wicked beyond all understanding.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 So you are saying god created evil knowingly without realizing the consequences of sending a majority of humanity to hell making humanity's existence futile. This in turn makes god irresponsible by putting blame upon beings he created knowing full well the capability of what they'd be like. This makes god the ultimate evil. How can one love something that will send us to hell, and blame us for the misfortunes we were created with?
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence No, you are trying to compartmentalize God into your humanistic ways. This is not possible. Humans existence is not futile, believe it or not God created you so that God might share his love with you. Life is a gift, not a curse. The only curse is ignorance of Godliness which we bring upon ourselves. Man is without excuse, and God is no respecter of persons. We were not created sinful, we became that way because of Adam and Eve chose to eat the forbidden fruit.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 So god created humans for his ego? Human existence is futile if a majority of humanity is going to hell and even Jesus says so, so this whole entire plan is flawed. We are ignorant of what god is because we have no real proof of it, we have multiple religions that all have different ideas on this undefined being. I also have to say blaming the whole of humanity over 2 people is completely unjustified especially over something as important as knowledge.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence God created humans to share His love. You undervalue humans with your view, just as Hitler did, just as Nero did, as Stalin did. The one thing you have in common with those men is you hate God. We are not ignorant of God but by our own will. Your will is in a sense sovereign, in a sense we are all mini Gods because we are empowered by our freewill which is a gift from Him. If you want to know who God is, read about Jesus. Jesus IS God. That is how we know His character!
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 How can I undervalue humans when we are finite beings and valuable in that we will never exist again? I don't hate god, I can't comprehend god or see no evidence of him. I lack the evidence to say this thing exists, your reasoning is also very circular. I also think you shouldn't compare me with the likes of mass murderers, when you yourself worship a god that supposedly killed billions. I have never killed anyone for that denies human values.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence The problem with your doctrine is that it's very, very, easy to slip into a very self centered view of life if there is no life after this one. If there is no life after this, what stops one from being completely and utterly selfish? By that standard, everyone is better served obtaining whatever they can for themselves since this is all there is and all there ever will be then pretty soon people are behaving like animals.
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killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 The reason this view is not self centered is because of our self reliance upon everything else around us. We rely upon other humans, animals, the sun, the plants for this coexistence which is valuable because its finite. This whole system is based off the antithesis of selfish nature, and guess what we humans are animals. We are higher animals privileged enough to experience every waking moment to better the world around us before our inevitable decline.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence But what would stop you from manipulating the use of others for your own gain if we're all just programmed animals and we are only accountable for actions in the most relative sense of self? People naturally take advantage of others for their own gain, and with your belief your own gain comes before others gain even if you're reliant on their services.
You are a relativist with only a brief glimpse of a moral framework. Truth isn't any more relative than 2+2=4.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 Your question is horrible, society is based upon humans working for other humans for gain if we didn't do this we'd have complete anarchy. Not to mention our reliance on everything else means we must care for them.
I'd say my morals are constructive not relative, our morals are based on a number of factors survival, societal benefits, science, well being of others, emotion, nature, reason..just to name a few.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 Your views on life make it worth nothing, you've placed all value on god and nothing on the world around you. You are worshipping the embodiment of nothingness and giving it praise so you can live on forever eternally which is completely pointless. You deny your humanity and reason for this instead of accepting humanity for what it is and living in the moment.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
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killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence God did not create evil, he created this possibility to disobey Him so you could experience genuine love, which can only come from God. Without a possibility of transgression, you do not know God. Which as I have already said, is a curse. In human terms, it's a bit like "tough love." Sometimes you have to do things that seem bad at the time, to bring about a greater good later. All things work for good for those who love God. Basically, God knows, and you don't.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 If he did this knowing the full consequences then this love isn't worth it. If this great good causes the majority of humanity to be in agony eternally then the ends do not justify the means, which means it'd be best if humanity never existed. These are all the actions we'd expect to see from a well intentioned extremist who puts the few before the many.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence You type as if you assume every consequence is not a just judgment by a loving God. You reap what you sow, it's that simple. You transgress, God looks the other way. I'm sorry if living in a world where there's consequences for your actions isn't politically correct enough for you, but this is reality.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 I'm just pointing out the flaws in this perfect divine plan. I do believe we should own for our actions yet god never does. I am perfectly fine with consequences but what I am saying is you aren't living in reality by believing in this, you hold onto an illusion out of fear of death. People suffer horribly and god crosses his arms and shrugs, its business as usual for him and he intends to let it happen all for his own ego.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence This plan is only flawed if you don't understand God. I don't believe in God out of fear, that would not be genuine belief. I believe in God because I see evidence of Him everywhere. What do you think man deserves?
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 No the plan is flawed because humans don't know which god to believe nor have genuine knowledge of this thing, and the consequences of not believing this is going to hell because according to you they aren't christians. This means a majority of the world is doomed and this is god's perfect plan? Man deserves much better, but I think all we can do is accept our fate and love it.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence I respectfully disagree. Knowledge of God is seared on the heart of every human being that is able to comprehend. Therefor, the ignorance is willful so we WISH to believe in things that are not of God because it suits us better. Lets face it, we like to be sinful and some of us would rather believe in a deity that allows us to sin without consequence rather than one that holds us accountable and these days that's most people.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 Really now, how can that be true with so many conflicting theological ideas? We can hardly grasp our own universe yet you think we can somehow understand something far more complex just by intuition. That's laughable. The reason we are accountable is because we understand consequence and actions, god never comes into contact with that and again you deny human nature for your special god.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence Human nature is to sin and hate God. I try to deny sin because I love God. I know this concept is foreign to you, but I do not conform to things that tickle the human ego. We can't understand God with our limited brains no, but existence itself is a window into His divine nature. How do you explain guilt and shame even if you don't believe in sin?
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 So you are saying you are inhuman? I don't conform to things over my ego, I question them and look for answers and doubt. Could you explain how the universe is somehow a window? Guilt and shame is human nature which I don't deny unlike you, its what we humans emote when we feel we've made a mistake. It's really not that hard to explain at all.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence I assure you, I am quite human. I'm tempted to sin by the same things you are being a Christian doesn't really change that. The universe is a window because through our fallen nature we can behold the glory of God. I speak of the infinite universe, the perfect balance of nature, the perfect balance of everything, the perfection of math...it's a miracle and a testament of intelligent design. When you see evidence of intelligence you do not assume unintelligence.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 math isn't perfect, and the universe acts very very strange and not as we'd like to perceive. I could also point out numerous problems for us in this universe especially when everything is trying to kill us and potentially can at a moments notice. Sometimes things that appear created are not, and ID is not falsifiable or testable so its useless scientifically and will tell us nothing of our universe.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence How is math not perfect? 2+2=4 is a law. That does not change, like God. Just because problems exist doesn't mean God isn't here. You forget that God originally made everything perfect, and the universe didn't start going down the toilet until Satan tried to be like God. The Bible does not say whether or not God knew Satan was going to sin because this conflict happened before time existed. It's impossible to answer in our minds.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 math is incomplete, and you are just dealing in basic math with non-abstract things math can also change with certain factors like if you have larger values of 2 you will get a higher number. for instance 2.90 +2.90 = 5. Right why should I believe any of this? Why blame satan when god created the guy knowing he'd screw up his plan? All this means to me is god is controlled by fate and satan is free willed chaos. Your god is imperfect as fare as I can tell.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence God sees it all at once. Like I already said, the end result of this is God wins and everything returns to paradise. Where will the nay sayers be then?
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 You presume god wins, but if satan could easily corrupt humans then it won't be a problem to just screw up god's plan like before. Not to mention a higher power being that knows what god is and knows his plan would be easier to counter. This whole plan is flawed.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence It's only flawed if you don't think God is going to win, which He will. Love beats evil already and the end hasn't even come yet! God allows Satan to corrupt humans only if they sin. God is in control of Satan. Noah's Ark illustrates this perfectly. Satan was trying to corrupt the blood lines of men with his fallen angels because he knew the Messiah (Jesus) was going to be born sometime in the future. But God trumped Satan by killing all the evil Nephilim and Noah floated
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 If god cannot stop satan like he did before I would expect him to fail to do so again, and it appears as though he couldn't do it meaning satan is of equal or greater power. That was a perfect example of god's failure, he couldn't stop the angels before hand meaning he doesn't know everything or isn't all powerful. Furthermore the generations after failed too making the entire endeavor futile.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence God can stop Satan and He has by sending Jesus to die on the cross. Basically, Satan though he'd won when he crucified the Messiah, but actually God won because now Satan can't take every soul to hell. God had to punish Satan for transgression, so he kicked him out of heaven. I fail to see how Satan won?
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 But Satan still takes more to hell anyway regardless of your martyr because of all the people that have lived most have not been christians. So god didn't win anything, he just created a loophole in his own screwed up plan which he planned out in the first place. No matter how you look at it, this sacrifice isn't enough. God is being lead on by fate while satan does whatever he wishes chaotically and freely.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence Do you even know what it takes to get saved? All it takes is faith in Jesus Christ, there are a lot more saved people than you might think. His sacrifice is enough to get ANYONE saved so it is enough.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 I'm talking about the whole of the world here, jesus only appeared in a very small country a few thousand years ago and only later did his message reach out to the other parts of the world. homo sapiens have been around for 250,000 years so just think of all who are roasting because yahweh took so long and still hasn't reached many places on earth.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence According to the Bible, this stage of earth (the version where man exists) is only about 9,500 years old. But that is beside the point. That stanza of earth was different (Old Testament) and the Jews (Christians of the day) were spoken to by YAH personally. So the gospel was around at the early stages of human history, and just like now most people foolishly denied God. But like you, are without excuse.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 HAHAHHA you're a young earth creationist, I've taken a geology class and know how they measure the age of the earth and you are completely wrong. Many civilizations thought they had revelations from gods and we know humans try to find agency in what they don't understand. As far as i'm concerned I don't know god, perhaps if he shows up i'll accept him if he is good. But Yahweh is not that perfect god.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence God can stop Satan from doing anything, you fail to understand God uses Satan to execute his Judgments upon the unrightious because HE KNEW they would be sinful so THAT is why God allowed Satan to sin so He could use him to judge sinful angels and men.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 Obviously not he didn't stop the corruption of humanity, angels producing with humans, idol worshipping of other tribes, ect. From your view we are but pawns in a celestial feud, and no one in this game really has many options. In your view perfect good allows for perfect evil to destroy everything only to attempt to stop it with a sacrifice that won't save the majority. There is no winner in this conflict.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence We are the pawns while at the same time our choices are all that matter. God allows Satan to do evil only as much as we transgress from the laws of God. Perfect good allows evil to destroy they that are evil. God wants every soul yes, but He won't because of people like you that have hardened their heart from the truth that you are a sinner and you need to be saved.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 I am no pawn to either actually, i'm an agnostic but certainly open tot he idea of gods if there is any proof. God allowing evil makes god imperfect himself. Why should I be saved from a god that cannot allow me or any other another choice apart from heaven or hell? Who would allow for evil to roam free unchecked. I ask for a third option.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence Nothing works without love. In order to experience true love, there HAS to be evil. Otherwise we would not be able to distinguish between the two (good and evil) thus sincere true unconditional love would not ever be experienced by human beings. That would be hell on earth my friend and as bad as it can be here, it's never as bad as hell actually is.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 Love works based upon two interactions between two beings that can understand one another and care for them, who are there for one another until the end. Your god has none of these aspects and evil is not a part of it at all. The fact that god allows hell to exist and allow for people to be there is testament to his own evil. Love also doesn't threaten, nor put them in a place with no options. God is not love but evil and nothingness who rules with an iron fist.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence You're making stuff up now. I'll leave you alone.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 Funny you claim I made stuff up when you said the earth was less than 4.5 billion years old as proven by your holy book. Thanks for the conversation.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence @killerproctologist88 wait wait sorry but to add in 2 cents, haha. Requie, it seems like you're slightly missing the point. It's like a wife. If you bought you wife flowers just because it was tuesday, she would love you and love it. But if you bought them and told her that you "had" to because she is your wife....she wouldn't accept that as loving. That is religion not love. Ok, sorry to bring yall back. I just wanted to say that. Ok bye
ebj1871 2 months ago
@ebj1871 The only thing you are missing in your analogy is that if the woman didn't accept your flowers you would torture her forever until she said she loved you, while in another scenario if I had to buy her flowers she could choose to accept them or not but still know I loved her regardless with no consequence.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence You must understand, by denying sin you bring yourself closer to God. Thus, you are better off. People seal their own fate by denying God. The penalty for sin is death, thus every man dies (we're all sinners.) The only way you don't go to hell is just by acknowledging who you are (a sinner) and the only way you don't go to hell is by accepting Jesus.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 You want me to deny my innate human nature for something I know nothing about? I told you before I can't comprehend god, it might exist but there is no reason to suggest it exists. Auto damnation over human nature is evil, in that case god is responsible for making us this way and is torturing us over the way he made us which is circular. Why accept Jesus? Buddha was far wiser and Jesus's teachings aren't exactly new.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence No reason to suggest God exists? Ok, when you open a dictionary, you see that it has every word spelled right and in alphabetical order. I would hope that you are smart enough not to assume that that dictionary came together by accident in a printing press explosion someplace. But for some reason when it comes to the perfection of balance in the earth and universe, people illogically assume chaos? Why?
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 A dictionary is not a biological organism or a universe. There are certain factors that provide us reasons to suggest that we aren't intelligently designed nor that our universe is. I also never said chaos, but this is our only observable universe why factor in that its perfect when we have no other universes to observe. But you just keep jumping to these conclusions out of a presupposed belief.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence Metaphors are used to describe the same context from a different source. Saying, "oh the universe isn't a book" doesn't refute my point at all.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 I'm aware what metaphors are, but a book is not relatable to something that changes like the universe and us. So your point stays refuted.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence The universe may change, just as new additions to a dictionary may change. But there is always a constant in which both can be described. My point is not refuted at all.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 A universe may be complex but that doesn't mean its orderly, and you presume its like a dictionary. Except dictionaries aren't abstract things, they are objective. You completely missed my refutation of your example because you don't understand this.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence There are laws this universe MUST abide by no? Like the law of motion, of gravity etc etc. These are abstract laws of the universe are they not? Just like a dictionary must have laws, correct spelling, alphabetical etc.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence You are not automatically damned. You obviously have never read the Bible and if you have you have failed to comprehend it. The Bible is Gods manual for His people. You wanna learn about God? Go by yourself an Authorized 1611 King James Bible.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 Actually you are, if you die not as a christian in your belief you burn for eternity no exceptions. You either accept this faith or suffer, god has no third options. I've also read the bible, and its probably one of the most facepalm induced barbaric ridiculous absurd luniacal books i've ever read.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence You think of it that way because that's what you wanted to read when you read it. Just know that in the end, God wins and paradise will be regained. But in order for that to happen, people must suffer. All the heathen sees is the suffering. I see His inevitable glory and triumph over sin, evil, and Satan because I have faith. He that does not sees only suffering, for that the spirit grieves.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 funny you accuse me of not interpreting it correctly when there are vast sects of christianity that all disagree with one another. Who knows I might be right, there is no proper way to read the bible. You have your thoughts and dreams in the clouds, mine are grounded on earth to make this world a better place. It's horrible that you think your own selfish reward is more important than those who suffer for it, you obviously don't care about humanity.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence Who are you to decide what humanity deserves? Is your ego really that big? The penalty for transgression is death my friend. It is only by His love for us that we can save ourselves, but He hold us accountable to humble ourselves because otherwise belief in Him would be robotic and fake.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@killerproctologist88 When I hear of thousands suffering i'd like to think we life forms deserve not to. It's not my ego talking its the fact that I care for other life forms other than myself, god is the egotistical one here. Again his love isn't worth it if billions will suffer eternally, i'd never wish that to happen all because god is alone and couldn't instead just make himself another god to love.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 2 months ago
Only the one that love sin and will not turn from sinning , God will destroy.Because I was born a sinner you were born a sinner but God took me out and is now leading me to perfection and he can do the same for you if you sincerely ask him
WE CAN NOT OVER CAME SIN WITH OUT GOD
1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
IT IS GOD IN US THAT OVERCOMES THE WORLD NO MAN CAN DO IT ON HIS OWN
prittydeb 3 months ago
so basically, the Church, for most of its history, would have declared Piper a heretic.
kylejoshua85 3 months ago
Of course God's plan was for all mankind to fall in the flesh in Adam. Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world in God's eternal plan hidden in Christ. Would God plan for Jesus to be crucified before the foundation of the world if there was no sin in the plan of God?? God has not lost control. EVERYTHING is happening ACCORDING TO PLAN.
TotalInabilityTruth 4 months ago 2
downtoawhisper, read romans 9 vs 16 through 21 it specifically adresses your humanistic view of what God should be like, and yes we are all sinful from birth genesis 8 vs 21.
MrChris189 4 months ago
I like the way he knows what God's thinking...
... yes... that's insulting enough
LN1992 5 months ago
So in Piper's eyes, God made us all sinful, yet we are still guilty. But doesn't guilt mean that there was a choice? And if we're just born in sin, where is the choice to transgress the law...where is the responsibility on the sinner's part?
Furthermore, God hates sin..."The boastful cannot stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity" (Psalms 5:5). Why would God create us into something He hates...and then punish us when we have no choice in the matter?
downtoawhisper 5 months ago
@downtoawhisper Because He so willed. When it comes down to it -- it comes down to can God do as He wills with His creation?? Is God so magnificent that He doesn't fit in anyone's box of what a "nice God" would be like?? But, rather, He is God ruling and reigning over all creation -- and worthy to be feared?? You see, He has many enemies who would love Him if He was their friend on THEIR TERMS. But, will you be God's friend on HIS TERMS?? Will you worship the God of Providence?
TotalInabilityTruth 4 months ago
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@downtoawhisperSo in Piper's eyes, God made us all sinful, yet we are still guilty.Not in Piper's eyes but God said it. Romans 11:32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
CBALLEN 3 months ago
So according to Piper, Ravi Zacharias is a wimpy Christian? Oh my...
GrizzlyMonkey15 5 months ago 2
@GrizzlyMonkey15 Perhaps he is. I'm not familiar with him. However, if Ravi Zacharias will not bend his knees before God and worship Him who sits on the Throne who made all of us for His own pleasure -- who rules and reigns absolutely -- if he's not a MILITANT CHRISTIAN who will SURRENDER to the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD -- he's a wimp. You know, Michael the archangel is a mighty angel who fully submits to God's Sovereign will and fulfills all God's commands. Like a CENTURION SOLDIER OF THE CROSS.
TotalInabilityTruth 4 months ago
@AegeanKing, not really. I think people should read the Bible for themselves and use theologians sermons as references to increase their understanding. In no way am I underestimating theology. It is just that it becomes dangerous when people start to follow a certain theology more than they follow the Bible, now that is how cults get started.
DarthLin 5 months ago
It is the same with Christian preachers.
What do we believe? Calvin? Armanius? Or the Bible itself.
I don't know about you, but I think it is more important to fix my eyes on the Bible other than human theology.
Because both Calvanism and Arminarism are interpretations of the real truth, the Bible. So these interpretations might not be entirely right.
I think it is sad when preachers preach a sermon with emphasis on Calvanism or Armanianism, instead of focusing on the Bible.
DarthLin 6 months ago
@DarthLin U can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say. You can say lets just read the Bible instead of listening to calvin or arminian but then you are just reducing everything to biblical relativism. Thats how cults get started.
AegeanKing 5 months ago
@DarthLin
You must understand, it is because of hundreds and hundreds of years of the tradition of scripture that Calvinism and Arminianism exist. No one made it up to sound important.
If one were to go back to only reading scripture and seeking to actually understand it, he would find himself in one or the other category (or between them).
Neither of them are bad. Both very respectable. There are obstinate angry Arminians and there are obstinate and angry Calvinists. They're people.
DanPrinMan 5 months ago
@DanPrinMan Great point...
3333333333joeberry 5 months ago
Let me use an example.
Two people saw half a glass of water.
Mr. A says the glass is half full.
Mr. B says the glass is half empty.
Who is right?
Well, both are right. As long as they emphasize the truth that there is half a glass of water.
However, if they try to influence people into believing that either "glass is half full, or the glass is half empty". Then they are both wrong, because they are wrapping the truth that the glass is half full with their own perceptions.
DarthLin 6 months ago
People forget that, both Calvinism and Arminianism are human theology, both are human interpretation of the Bible. It is not wise for people to preach the Bible with focus to influence people into a certain theological belief other than the Bible.
DarthLin 6 months ago
@patrckhh20, are you saying that God actively put sin into his plan before creation? Are you saying that God is the author of sin? The Bible, has never said God is the author is sin, which only lead to death. The Bible, said God is the author of life. So what do you mean by not true?
DarthLin 6 months ago
Every time I listen to John Piper's sermons, I always get a feeling that everything he preaches he is inclined more towards his Calvinistic theology and double predestination theology more than the Bible. It's almost like he is telling half truth to back up his own opinions, theology and opinions rather than preaching Biblical truth.. And sometimes he says things that is just not Biblical at all..
DarthLin 6 months ago
@DarthLin Not true.
patrckhh20 6 months ago
@MnSspictures, I agree that God already knew it would happen. What John Piper should have said, was that God "permitted" sin to happen, and because God is sovereign over sin, and our sinful wills, God has a plan to bring creation back to Himself through the suffering of Jesus Christ. There is a difference between God "actively" put sin into creation as a part of His plan, and God "permitting" sin and has a plan for salvation.. I think the idea that God "put" sin as a part of His plan is wrong
DarthLin 6 months ago
How can God be righteous, holy, and have a spotless character if he planned sin? Piper is almost saying that God is the author of sin.
The Bible consistently showed that God is absolutely righteous, so what the heck is Piper saying that God planned sin from the beginning?
Piper, has gone too far here..
DarthLin 6 months ago
@DarthLin not quite, he planned for it, because he knows things before they happen. He didn't cause it to happen, but he knew it would.
MnSPictures 6 months ago
Oh no! Piper presumes to know God's plan then tells us not to try and figure out God totally!! ummmmm isn't that what you just did?! You quote from Paul on the incomprehensibility of God's ways, yet he adheres to Calvinism which removes any kind of mystery from God's nature. He then mocks 'wimpy Christians". Yet he is the one who has anthropomorphized God. To Piper God is merciful and wrathful and hateful depending on his mood at any given time and on who you are....
brendos444 8 months ago
@brendos444 ... Of course, only those like Piper will be saved. All the others are "wimps". And his God is not a wimp, by which he means totally loving and merciful to all, not just the "elect". This man is pitiful. No wonder Christianity gets such a bad name.
brendos444 8 months ago
@brendos444 Christianity gets a bad name by people who pick and choose attributes of God to glorify and deny, and pick and choose which parts of the Bible they feel comfortable with and throw away the rest.
The whole Bible (Gen--Rev) is inspired and sufficient for learning about God and His character like as much as God is Love He is also Righteous, Wrathful, Holy, Merciful, Faithful, Powerful, All Knowing, Good, Immutable, Just, Truthful, Wise, and Sovereign.
EverydayRevival 7 months ago
@brendos444 Oh no! Brendos presumes that john piper is stating that he knows Gods plan and that somehow agreeing with some calvanist theology somehow removes the mystery of God! how do you get to that presumption exactly?!! Is it not possible to be merciful and wrathful if by nature you are totally loving and Righteous. I seriously hope He is both, a righteous judge is what this world needs!
seph00007 7 months ago
@Clay and Doctor. Your both right. Merge your views together and you have the answer.
iDeceivedOhio 8 months ago
Not sure I agree that God 'planned' the fall and sin in His original design for Creation. But I agree w/ Pastor John and many others about the solution or remedy to our problem, that's what counts! Jesus is the answer for the world's problems today and every ache and pain of this messed up world, this I think we can all agree as believers..
Drooblemeister 9 months ago
this is all wrong, sin never existed becuase that was never part of GODs will or thought at any time sin is a transgression of GODs will adam and eve were created good and perfect but, once they transgressed the cosmic order (GODs will) sin was born which gave birth to the law which was the source of sins power since it gave the knowledge of what evil is.
doctorw2 10 months ago
@doctorw2 2 Timothy 1:9: "[God] saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages begin." So God gave us grace before Genesis 1:1 ever occurred. Before anything existed, before any world was created, grace was given to us in Christ Jesus. What is grace? Grace is a response to sin. Therefore, God's plan, from before the foundation of the world, included sin because it included grace.
clayhutchins 10 months ago
@clayhutchins grace is umerited favour a love that can not be gained by someones effforts, adam and eve were sinless becuase they did not know what good and evil was when they were created sin did not exist becuase where there is no transgression there is no sin. GOD gave us grace becuase he did not want us to die in sin seperated from him eternaly because he is compassionate and mercifull. GODs will never included sin at any time grace was given as a tool of salvation.
doctorw2 10 months ago
@doctorw2 I would encourage you to meditate more on the implications that 2 Timothy 1:9 has. They are massive. I am troubled by your statement, "God's will never included sin at any time." There are many biblical examples of God willing and ordaining sin. I encourage you to look these up: Acts 4:27-28; Rev 17:16-17; 2 Thess 2:8-13; Ex 9:12; 10:20, 27; 11:10; 14:4; Deut 2:26-30; Josh 11:19-20; Rom 11:7-9; Mark 4:11-12; 1 Sam 2:22-25; 2 Sam 24:1. These texts show that God can and does will sin.
clayhutchins 10 months ago
@clayhutchins no these verses do not show GOD willed sin quite the contrary, they show the price for transgression if a person chooses to rebel against GOD do you not think GOD would know that before hand? there is a thing called election and preordination GOD is not limited to time he forknows everything but, that does not mean he wills sin to be if that were the case then GOD would be acting against his own nature GOD hates sin and evil.
doctorw2 10 months ago
@doctorw2 These verses, if you stop and meditate on them, do actually show quite plainly that God does will that sin would occur. For instance, God willed that Jesus' death. "It was the will of the Lord to crush him" (Is 53:10). God willed that the death of Jesus would occur - but yet, this could not have occurred apart from sin. It is an extremely sinful thing to crucify the Son of Man. It came about by betrayal, abandonment, false accusation, and murder - and God willed all of these sins.
clayhutchins 10 months ago
@clayhutchins no, you misunderstand that verse which is connected to john 3:16 GOD sent jesus as a sacrificial substitute for sin since the wages of sin is death and GOD wanted to save mankind from the penalty of sin which is death thats why the hebrew torah permited animal sacrifice they were used to atone for sins but, they could only provide a temporary absolution for sin. Jesus sacrifice was ordained by GOD to be a perpetual atonement for sin for all times.
doctorw2 10 months ago
@doctorw2 I agree with everything you just said, and I see no contradiction between John 3:16 and Acts 4:28. Here, let's go to a different, more straightforward, example. The sons of Eli were having sex with the women who served at the tent of meeting, and Eli tried to convince them to repent and to stop, but the text says that "they would not listen to the voice of their father, for it was the will of the LORD to put them to death" (1 Sam 2:25). Why didn't they repent? God wanted to kill them.
clayhutchins 10 months ago
@clayhutchins they commited a very serious transgression and these sons of eli had hearts that were unrepentant so GOD wanted to kill them GOD does not grant grace to obstinate sinners who are set in their ways becuase like i said GOD hates sin and as jesus taught all people you must repent or die in your sins.
doctorw2 10 months ago
@doctorw2 And therefore you agree with me, that God has, can, and does will that sinful acts happen.
clayhutchins 10 months ago
@clayhutchins no, you dont understand what im saying, GOD did not will that the sons of eli sin and die he only willed that they die becuase they sinned had they repented of their ways GOD would not have been set on killing them.
doctorw2 10 months ago
@doctorw2 It is true that if they would have repented, God would have not killed them. However, the fact of the matter is, they did not repent. Why didn't they? 1 Samuel 2:25 says that the reason they did not repent is because God wanted to kill them. So why didn't they heed the voice of their father and turn from their sin? Answer: "It was the will of the Lord to put them to death." That is why. The reason why they didn't repent is because God wanted to kill them.
clayhutchins 10 months ago
@clayhutchins no they didnt repent becuase they didnt want to, thats why they did not listen to their father they wanted to keep on sinning so thats why GOD was intent on killing them.
doctorw2 10 months ago
@doctorw2 You are right, but 1 Samuel 2:25 goes further. You know that right? I'm not making this stuff up, it's there in scripture. "They would not listen to the voice of their father - " Why? Why not? Why didn't they listen? " - FOR it was the will of the Lord to put them to death" (1 Sam 2:25). You don't have a problem with what I'm saying. You have a problem with that verse.
clayhutchins 10 months ago
@clayhutchins no i dont, you misunderstand what the verse is saying its teaching you this when you have a willfull heart to sin then GODs will decrees that you should be put to death they didnt listen to their father becuase their sin had already put a death sentence upon them.
doctorw2 10 months ago
@doctorw2 What you are describing is this: "God desired to put the son of Eli to death because they were unrepentant." That is a true statement. God did desire to put them to death because they were disobedient - that's true. It's just not what this verse says. This verse says exactly the opposite: "The sons of Eli were unrepentant because God desired to put them to death." What you have been saying is the exact opposite of what 1 Samuel 2:25 says. This verse says it the other way around.
clayhutchins 10 months ago
@clayhutchins not realy in the original language of this verse the hebrew clearly points out what ive been saying the english translation is fualty.
doctorw2 10 months ago
he will always think why he is bald and ugly and unatractive ,wats ur sin piper?
conimahoni 10 months ago
Why did this perfect God produce such bastard human sinners?
winstono75 11 months ago
@winstono75
Satan is called the "prince of the power of the air" in Ephesians 2:2. He is also called the "ruler of this world" in John 12:31.
This is one of the reasons we are all sinners. If we were not to sin we would be like robots doing what god tells us to do. Yet still if we didn't sin we would still be like filthy rags before god.
lastochka101 11 months ago
The reason there exist pain,and sadness in the world is,because human's consume and eat dead meat,animal's which are dead.It will better for human's to consume ,-alive animal's or not to eat meat at all.No wonder humanity its going down under.....!
TOLTECAAZTECA 11 months ago
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ndjarnag 11 months ago
So if I'm interpreting correctly... God's plan included sin before he created a single living being to make a choice to sin, yet God is completely innocent and human beings are entirely guilty?
Taxicab3 11 months ago
@Taxicab3 Yep. Don't like it, then by all means, do something about. Put God on trial, if you can. If you think yourself able, hold Him to account for the things you've done, because hey, man is the victim in all of this, right?
Sin isn't something unfortunate that happened to man, it's something we did, and although it was preordained that it would occur, we are still the very ones who sinned. We are guilty. We are born enemies of God and children of the devil. We are not victims.
Doulos7608 11 months ago
@Doulos7608 Luckily, I don't subscribe to this warped interpretation of Christianity so there is no need for a trial. This would be the same logic as holding the actors in a play responsible for the bad screenwriting. If I did believe that, then I probably would have to put God on trial. I believe He is big enough to handle the simple questions of man and is not drawn to fury or even offended just by humanity asking questions.
Taxicab3 11 months ago
@Taxicab3 Are you really that much of a blind, arrogant fool? Who do you think you are? Was it your hand that formed the mountains and spread out the heavens like a tent? Does your holiness exceed that of the worms under the earth? Do you have the wisdom of a man? Are you powerful enough that you think you could subdue the Creator and He would submitt to you and make a covenant with you? You are just a man, and death will reach out its hand to you and to the dust you will return.
Doulos7608 11 months ago
@Doulos7608 Geez, calm down brother. No, I don't think I could "subdue" the creator. I believe that the Creator is just. Don't fool yourself, we all put God on trial. We all have to make a decision on whether His ways are "Just." I don't believe God hates this process, but welcomes it. It has nothing to do with thinking I am greater than God. It has to do with the process of discovering the Truth of who God is.
Taxicab3 11 months ago
@Taxicab3 But it is exactly that. The underlying principle that forbids God to be the cause of all events is not reverence but self-worship. If God must adhere to -your- standard in order to remain righteous, then in your thinking, he is not God, but you are.
It is written in Ephesians 1:11,
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of his will,
(emphasis added)
Doulos7608 11 months ago
@Taxicab3 You are only an effect of the Ultimate Cause, a created thing. And no created thing has the authority to say to the one that molded it, "Why did you make me like this?" Has not the potter right over the clay? Mankind is not all of God's children. We are born His enemies, with the devil as our father, and we love to do his work. Mercy is unmeritted kindness, do not forget this. It is ill-deserved.
Doulos7608 11 months ago
@Doulos7608 Again, you are speaking to me as if I agree with your original premise that God planned for Sin to be in the world from the beginning. I don't believe that. I take full responsibility of my sin, knowing that God had no intention of me living the way that I do. Because of this I know that I desperately need his mercy and forgiveness and I praise him daily for the grace that He gives me. I know it is ill-deserved. No argument there.
Taxicab3 11 months ago
He is not the author of sin. But in making people willing to choose freely he new sin would enter! If he had not given us the availability of takig decisions hew would not take all the Glory because then we would have been like robots!
jrcandelaria20 11 months ago
@jrcandelaria20 Who was it that created the heavens and the earth, and all that is in them? Who created the Garden of Eden and placed every plant and animal in the place of His own choosing? Who was it that placed man in an environment that would lead to his fall into sin?
Doulos7608 11 months ago
@jrcandelaria20 What's more, just saying "if all is predestined then we are just robots" doesn't prove your position to be true, it just proves that you don't think it's fair. If the power of the cross to save lies in your own free will, if the power of the sacrifice of God's Son lies in whether or not you "accept" Jesus, then how does it not boil down to the glory ultimately being yours for your own salvation? In what way were your works not involved?
Doulos7608 11 months ago
@Doulos7608 Yes he is creator of all no doubt. Unless you are a hypercalvinist you will say God created sin. Creating sin and Him willing sin to enter the world are different things. God is Holy and doesn't make anyone fall into temptation that is our own doing.. He willed it alright but he did not plant that in your heart. Yes he can test our hearts but He doesn't tell you to do it. I'm not talking about freewill concerning salvation I know he predestined his children. He is never unjust.
jrcandelaria20 11 months ago
@jrcandelaria20 He is never unjust. This is true, He is pure and holy in all that He does. But read the following passages. Read Isaiah 45:7, " I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things." Now the Hebrew word translated as "calamity" in English is "ra" (רָ֑ע Strong's 7451), which means disaster, calamity, but also is the same word that is translated as "wicked" or moral evil.
Doulos7608 11 months ago
@Doulos7608 Yes and I agree. He does what he wants and can cause calamity using whatever he wants causing destruction, but He does not make you sin. James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. God Bless!
jrcandelaria20 11 months ago
@jrcandelaria20 Believing that God is the ultimate cause of all things, even sin, does not make one a hyper-calvinist. And even so, say a man is the manufacturer of a product that is used in every single house in the world. Let's call these things widgets. Now the man is the creator of all widgets. Is he a widget, or to be confused with his creation or what it does? Of course not.
Doulos7608 11 months ago
@jrcandelaria20 Read also 2 Chronicles 18:18-21. I don't have enough room to post it.
Doulos7608 11 months ago
@jrcandelaria20 Curious, when Christians get to heaven will they have the choice/availability of sinning? Being a robot for eternity doesn't sound like a situation I want to be in.
ndjarnag 11 months ago
@ndjarnag Hello, when we get into heaven we will be free of sin. Sin will exist no more. We will be in complete perfection because our bodies will be glorified as Jesus is. 1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
jrcandelaria20 11 months ago
@jrcandelaria20 Thanks for the reply. So it seems there will be no more free will in heaven. That could be a good or bad thing depending on how you look at it.
ndjarnag 11 months ago
@jrcandelaria20 Define the word "tempt". If you mean that God will never issue a command, and then tell someone, "Hey, disobey Me. It'll be awesome", then I agree with you. If, however, you mean that God doesn't send evil spirit to tempt men, then I have to disagree with you based upon what's written in 1 Chronicles 21:1 and 2 Samuel 24:1. God uses secondary causes to accomplish His purpose when it pleases Him.
Doulos7608 11 months ago
@Doulos7608 Where speaking about different things. Im not saying he doesn't send evil spirits. Even paul had a evil spirit sent by God to control his pride in 2 Corinthians 12:8. I'm saying God is Holy and does not have evil in him because he hates sin. So if he hates sin and curses sinners it's impossible to make God responsible of something that people do by their own doing. If God makes me sin then it means he is not holy. And we know that's not true!
jrcandelaria20 11 months ago
@jrcandelaria20 “Let it be unequivocally said that this view certainly makes God the cause of sin. God is the sole ultimate cause of everything. There is absolutely nothing independent of Him. He alone is the eternal being. He alone is omnipotent. He alone is sovereign.” Gordon Clark, God and Evil pg. 38
Doulos7608 11 months ago
@Doulos7608 I'm not in for what Gordon Clarck can say. I'm for what God in his word declares. And if he says he doesn't tempt anyone I believe him! I believe he willed it to happen and I believe he had a purpose, the same way he uses satan for his will. But he doesn't plant it in me. Because then eventually your telling me he is the cause of my sin. No way!!!
jrcandelaria20 11 months ago
@jrcandelaria20 Ultimately, yes. Nothing exists apart from him and nothing happens which is not by his decree. At the same time, however, he cannot be held as responsible for the sins that we commit.
Doulos7608 11 months ago
I have a problem with God being the author of sin. I find it problematic from a biblical perspective to say the least. That's why it's Molonism and Middle Knowledge for the win baby!
But I'm still a Piper fan because I believe in regeneration not decisionism. Keep at it brother Piper!
mgundy 1 year ago
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leedohy 1 year ago
Rather confused thinking from Mr. Piper - ends up being dishonouring to God and blaming him for sin. Think again.
petertimothycooper 1 year ago
if this is how God is then i will willfully go to hell because this means that God created most people specifically to be tortured for all of eternity.
AvantGrapes 1 year ago
@AvantGrapes that sucks :(
nwpspwns 1 year ago
@nwpspwns Well...God has a grip on me and I couldn't let go if I wanted to even with all of this...jeesh I don't want to be a Calvinist, but it is very much increasingly so...Even Arminians I've talked to believe God knows who's going to heaven or hell as of now. I still pray for salvation of my friends/old friends.
AvantGrapes 1 year ago
@AvantGrapes Thats great! Just know that God is just and is beyond all our understanding. The God who created justice is going to know justice and we just have to believe Him :)
nwpspwns 1 year ago
I was a christian years ago until I met Jesus.
lastochka101 1 year ago
@lastochka101 same here.
niceguy999918 1 year ago
@lastochka101 this doesnt make any sense? lol
BigG99 1 year ago
@prinsalmighty1: it's hard to take someone seriously when they can't even spell "dead sea scrolls" correctly.
toobfunnybunny 1 year ago