To ARMINIANS -Romans 11:32 "for God has shut up all to unbelief, that he might have mercy on all".
To CALVINISTS -1 Timothy 4:10"for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of ALL MEN ESPECIALLY y of those believing."
DOUBTERS I Cor. 15:23-28"But every man in his own order:..For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet..last enemy...destroyed is DEATH... Son also Himself be subject unto Him..that God may be ALL IN ALL"
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. Revelation 13:8 notice how it doesn't say that the names were blot out of the book of life, but that their names were never written in the book of life.
@DerZanDa I covered this already...again, without caps, what time period is this? There are no Christians on the Earth during the time of Revelation 13:8. These are all who are left behind to go thru the judgments. Hello?
@DerZanDa Not God's judgments. Hey, if you want to be here for his judgments, be my guest. Of course I believe in pre-trib. Why else would God take us out of the way?
@DerZanDa And you totally misquoted Revelation 13:8. It does not say that their names were not written in the book from the foundation of the earth. It states that their names were not in the book of the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. Big difference.
@chapmaned It means the same thing, you're just playing semantics now, the fact remains there names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, so I can perfectly state that their names never were in the book of life.
@DerZanDa Oh, no no no...your rewording is different. You make it sound as if their names were never in that book. But it does not say that. Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation is what it states.
@chapmaned I will link it once again... and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. I am not rewording this, it states that names that were not written from the foundation of the world were slain.
@chapmaned The KJV is hardly a more accurate translation as it has Latin influences as well in it's interpretation and words that have completely different meanings now.
@chapmaned I don't worship Calvin, and it was customary for religious scholars of the time to read Latin as that was what was most common translated language of the Bible. I prefer to stick to the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. I don't think the KJV is a bad version per se, but I don't believe it should be used as a primary source at all. The KJV is usually used by people who are more legalistic.
@DerZanDa When we discuss the translations used, we also take into consideration which "original" texts to go by. The NIVr and others are of a different so called "original" text. And then you have the tainted "Wescott and Hort" translations. I trust the KJV in matters of doctrines.
@chapmaned I don't use the NIV at all, I use the NASB, ESV and NKJV. All have a lot of scholarly support and are by my estimates very accurate to the Greek and Hebrew.
like how can the created thing chose the creator>> meaning how can humans chose god when god make all things for a purpose. We we born in gods image an likeness, so in return we create things with a pupose. Thats just like if you created a couch for the purpose of being sat on and the couch tells you you cant sit on me until i tell you!!! DOES IT MAKES ANY SENSE NO!!!!! GLORY IS TO GOD AN NOT TO HUMANS IM OUT !!!!
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths".
I use to think we had free will to choose god. Until i read it for my self an it is self explanitor, most people dont read the bible for themselves, they listen to other preachers who thrive off of prospertiy gospel, to call other people to christiantiy who then base their actions an gods love off of works instead of faith...the two arminian are more basing stuff off what they believe in stead of what the word says.... I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK ITS WHAT THE WORD SAYS!!!
@storie773 If we don't choose God, then Christ died on the cross in vein. The Word states, Joshua 24:15
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK ITS WHAT THE WORD SAYS!!!
Us human's does not have any free will(accept only in the flesh) if we did, we will be able to break our selves away from sin, but we cant . Romans chapter 6:22 "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of god, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life".We did not make this world or the things in it or us!! Romans chapter 11:36 "For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen." I adivise every ne to read!!
@storie773 How about Romans 7:7-11 (DEAD TO SIN (Romans 6:2) means that you are ALIVE, while dead in sin means that you are dead)? We are born IN SIN and not WITH SIN (Original sin is a Catholic Augustine Doctrine) Deuteronomy 1:39 (DEAD TO SIN)? 1 John 3:9? Romans 3:20? Romans 5:13? Romans 7:7? Romans 5:13? Romans 4:15? Romans 4:8? I also advise to read.
So What is the message of the Gospel for the Calvinists? Is it, "Congratulations, God chose you...(and in small print), if you were selected from the foundation of the Earth...no purchase necessary!"
@chapmaned What a poor representation of the doctrines of grace. Arminianism lessens the power of God's grace, while Calvinism believes God's grace is so powerful that the scope is lessened. Does God owe it to ALL men to save them? The answer is simply no, the fact that anyone is saved is all due to the grace of God. Jesus died to SAVE US, not to make us salvable.
@DerZanDa I agree. There seems to be a huge confusion in those type of church's as to what Grace is. Even the Catholics think that Grace is "transferable" for one to give to others in a place they call purgatory, and that, while they use the word Grace, they think that salvation is still a merited issue, as if it is a wage that they earned, and expecting a paycheck of "eternal life" based on the work that they did. It is just so sad.
@DerZanDa But based on Calvinism, the death of Jesus on the cross was just for formality purposes only, as they were already saved from the foundation of the earth to begin with.
@chapmaned God predestined man to be saved from the foundation of the world. It was not a formality, and I don't understand where you get that from, but the Cross was necessary to ensure the salvation of all those whom God had predestined to election as sons. Jesus' death on the Cross was not to give man an opportunity to be saved or to be salvable but in that moment ensured salvation for his sheep. Without the Crucifixion of Jesus there is no hope for salvation.
@DerZanDa God did not predestine WHICH INDIVIDUALS would be saved. God PROVIDED a means for individuals to be saved...IF THEY ARE LOST TO BEGIN WITH. I don't believe in straw man arguments. I believe what I read in the Bible. Read Deuteronomy 1:39, and Romans Chapters 4-7. The Pharaoh could not be LOST as no sin could be IMPUTED to him. Read my references before you comment. I don't misunderstand. In order to be lost, you were once OWNED (NOT LOST). NO knowledge=NOT LOST!
@DerZanDa Everyone...Everyone prior to being lost was not lost. Babies don't go to hell, as they are not lost to begin with UNTIL THEY GET KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. That is why in Deuteronomy 1:39 that the children got to go to the PROMISED LAND, which spiritually is heaven. Who else went to the PROMISED LAND? Caleb and Joshua, and why? Because they had FAITH. God did not force faith down their throat as Calvinism suggests. Promised Land = Faith and NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.
@chapmaned I don't believe Babies go to hell either. But I also don't believe babies are just clean slates and have to learn to sin, if you believe that you never had or worked with kids, kids will just naturally sin. God does not force faith down our throats, but lovingly draws us completely unto himself, please stop butchering the doctrines of grace as you don't know anything about Calvinism except ridiculous propaganda.
@DerZanDa It is obvious that you did not read my references from the Bible, which was Deuteronomy 1:39 and ALL of Romans 4-7. SIN IS NOT "IMPUTED...IMPUTED...IMPUTED" to those who have NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. The only straw man arguments that I see is yours with examples of ice cream and that kids naturally sin. Without KNOWLEDGE, they are NOT ACCOUNTABLE. NO KNOWLEDGE=NO TRANSGRESSION=NO SIN. That is what Romans 4-7 and Deuteronomy 1:39 states. Please Read the references!!
@chapmaned I have Romans 4-7 memorized actually, and I read Deuteronomy 1:39. Shall I go through all of the Biblical references that show that we are wicked from the womb and as children? Let me ask you something, if I as a parent tell my child not to do something and he goes and does it anyway is he not sinning? I gave him the knowledge not to do something and yet he disobeyed me dishonoring me as a parent. ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
@DerZanDa Being "WICKED FROM THE WOMB" is not what I was talking about. What I was talking about, you can be as wicked as you want, but WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, YOU ARE NOT ACCOUNTABLE. TO THAT WICKEDNESS. You say that you don't believe that babies go to hell, but SOME Calvinists do, as they base their answer with "if they are not the elect". If you read correctly, CHRISTIANS as a whole is the ELECT....NOT INDIVIDUALS. You cannot disregard the word IMPUTE from romans 4-7.
@chapmaned Am I those Calvinists? No. Please don't attack a belief that I don't subscribe to, you'll just be wasting your time. I believe babies are born wicked and sinful, but God being merciful chooses to save them in death because of their lack of responsibility to their sins. I will deny that man can live a sinless life, or has the ability to choose God.
@DerZanDa Revelation 22:19 states "...shall take away his part out of the book of life...". But your explanation downgrades that as a curse. Shame, shame on you for doing that, minimizing it, and not acknowledging that it is a deletion from the book of life.
@chapmaned Excuse me? Curses are no small thing to me, as they mean eternal damnation. And I fully believe that if anyone ever changed the Word of God that they would go to Hell. Please stop inferring things that I don't believe.
@chapmaned Revelations 22:19 is a very specific case, and you used it to try and say that names can be erased from the book of life. I deny that notion.
@DerZanDa You deny that notion because you do not comprehend what the book of life is. There are more references to the book of life and the word "BLOT OUT". Everyone begins this life with a clean slate. But your belief system is out of whack with the "BOOK OF LIFE".
@chapmaned The book of life is not the Bible. The book of life is a book in heaven that contains the names of all those who will be saved, and it was written before the foundation of the world. Even the Arminians believe this, your belief on this is outside of orthodoxy. We are not born with clean slates, that is Tabula Rasa and Pelagianism not a biblical concept and is indeed heresy.
@DerZanDa Where do you get the idea that the names in the book of life are those who WILL BE SAVED? You have NOT read the bible. The Exact Phrase "BOOK OF LIFE" is written 8 times. The word "BLOT" in conjunction with the BOOK is in the Bible 5 times. There is NO SUCH THING AS REGENERATIVE GRACE. Sanctification is of the Holy Ghost AFTER salvation, after grace is given.
@chapmaned Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life. Philippians 4:3 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. Revelation 3:5
@chapmaned I'm not going to correspond with you further if you do not correct your tone. All those who are, were and will ever be Christians have their names written in the book of life.
@DerZanDa No, Everyone begins with their names in that book, and are blotted out as needed. The only way to be blotted out is to have knowledge of good and evil, and reject God.
@chapmaned Where do you get this from, that everyone has had their name written in the book of life? It does not say this at all. You are merely interjecting your own assertions into Revelation 3:5 to mean something that it does not.
@DerZanDa By studying the whole bible. Sin is what separates us from God. When there is no law, there is no transgression. You need to finish my references. There is a dispensation. 1. Before the law, 2. During the Law, and 3. After the Law.
@chapmaned and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. Revelation 13:8 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. Revelation 20:12
@chapmaned But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 21:27 Now please concede that you are wrong on this matter, as I have just proved my case as to what the book of life is. Unless you believe every person who will be saved has their name written in the Bible...
@DerZanDa Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was accounted to him for RIGHTEOUSNESS, WITHOUT THE LAW. God did not make Abraham believe. NO SIN COULD BE ACCOUNTED TO ABRAHAM, BECAUSE IT WAS BEFORE THE LAW. The law is the KNOWLEDGE OF SIN...NO KNOWLEDGE=NO TRANSGRESSION=NO SIN ACCOUNTED.
@chapmaned Romans 4 does not deal with predestination or regenerative grace, but justification by faith alone. If we're going to continue discussing you need to calm down and not type everything in all caps as it leads me to believe there is a mad man on the other side. And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed Acts (18:27) Can you explain this verse then?
@chapmaned It simply never states in the case of Abraham if he had assistance in believing or not, but we learn from other passages that they require grace to believe.
@DerZanDa Yes it does. It states that Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. But don't just stop at chapter 4, because it goes until chapter 7.
@chapmaned It did not say why he believed as I said. And as I told you I have Romans 4-7 memorized and don't need you to lecture me on that content of scripture. Paul is using him to describe the doctrine of sola fide, if you wish to discuss the doctrine of election we can talk about Romans 8 and 9 which are actually relevant to this video.
@DerZanDa Oh, my Goodness. Yes it does. Romans 3:3 "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."
@chapmaned How does that scripture give reason to why Abraham believed? It merely states that Abraham received the righteousness of God that comes by faith. It does not explain he ultimately believed in the first place, you're interjecting your own opinions into the text now.
@chapmaned Why do you keep bringing up Romans 3:3, it does not address the issue of his reasoning for believing at all, it simply just states he believed. It says this many place, but in some instances the Bible gives us insight as to why people believe.
@DerZanDa Because there is no such thing as for a reason. God said something, and he believed it. You want there to be a reason that Abraham believed, but Abraham believed on his own accord. Your doctrine makes it out as if God had to make Abraham believe.
@chapmaned I do believe that, and if Abraham believed of his own choice then he has something to boast about does he not? Don't we all if we ultimately are the ones who choose God. Calvinism gives ALL the glory to God, from start to finish.
@DerZanDa You need to study the book of Romans in more detail other than just Romans 9, for which Calvinism is stuck on. The opposite of Grace is attempting to obey the law (works). Abraham did not have works, as there was no law.
@chapmaned I have Romans 1-9 memorized, please don't tell me to get to know the passages better... I probably read Romans 9 the least to be honest with you.
@DerZanDa Like you expect me to believe that? If you did, then you would know that sin is not imputed where there is no law, and blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin, and the where no law is, there is no transgression????? Hmmmm...I highly doubt your claim of memorization.
@chapmaned Romans 5:13 I'm familiar with it, and I already told you my stance on that verse. If you're going to accuse me of being a liar, that's fine with me as we are over the internet I cannot verify it. But if you call me a liar again I will be done discussing with you, as is I can probably do something much more fruitful with my time.
@DerZanDa I never used the word liar, but do not disregard the other verses in regards to the law, and that sin is not imputed, which means counted against you. 1 John 3:9 defines sin as the transgression of the law, and Abraham and the Pharaoh did not have the law. No sin could be accounted to them...either of them.
@DerZanDa Are you hearing me? 1 John 3:9 defines sin as transgression of the law. Scripture states for all have sinned. That includes Abraham. But scripture states that sin is not imputed where there is no law. No sin could be accounted to Abraham because there was no law. The law came about 400 years later under Moses. This is why we are children of Abraham. Jesus took away sin (the law), just as it was under Abraham. The righteousness of Jesus is without the law (Romans 3:21).
@chapmaned Sin has been around since Adam, all the law did was increase the trespass. And it was increased so that grace may abound all the more. Jesus did not do away with the law, but he fulfilled the law rather. And we died to the law through the body of Christ so that we could belong to Jesus instead.
@DerZanDa Romans 3:22-23 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all all all all all all and upon all all all all them that believe: for there is no difference: for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." What does the word all mean? Some? Also, scripture states that God is not a respector of persons. That means he did not choose who will be saved. We are all treated the same.
@chapmaned I don't believe that there will be any person who believe whom God did not predestine, so that scripture does not hurt my position. And I don't think God is a respecter of persons either, I don't think there is anything admirable or worthy about the gift of salvation that was placed upon me. The very choice for choosing me was all grace.
@DerZanDa You have a twisted version of what Grace is. Again, in order to understand what Grace is, you need to know what the opposite of Grace is. What is the opposite of grace?
@DerZanDa And of course Calvinists are indeed familiar with Romans 5:13. Other than Romans 9, that is the most referenced, but only as a purpose to teach original sin, which is non-existent.
@DerZanDa And lets not forget Deuteronomy 1:39 as if it doesn't mean anything, because at one time, Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil, as well. Ignorance of the Law is the excuse. Ignorance is bliss.
@DerZanDa In regards to the book of life deleting names...Revelation 22:19, and others. Look up the KEY WORD "BLOT". You will find it. In other words, do you own research instead of buying off on Calvin's Doctrine, which is a carry over from Catholicism, and yet, he has the nerve to call it reform!!!! HA!
@chapmaned I did my own research, I wasn't always a Calvinist and worked through SCRIPTURE to come to the conclusion that it was correct in regards to the doctrine of predestination. Revelation 22:19 is about a curse upon anyone who will take or add any words into the Bible. This does not destroy my claim whatsoever and is frankly irrelevant to the conversation.
@chapmaned I am a student of the Bible being mentored by my Senior Pastor, I study the Bible for the majority of my day I make absolutely sure that my beliefs are in alignment with the theology presented in the Bible.
@DerZanDa Oh, and I make it my hobby to study the belief system of peoples religions. I have for years. Therefore, you cannot accuse me of not knowing anything about Calvinism. I have come to the conclusion that in denominations, someone else DECIDED what scripture states, and then you conform to his creeds. In a NON-DENOMINATION, it is like Fox News...WE REPORT, YOU DECIDE. In yours, someone else already decided, and you conform to them...OR ELSE.
@chapmaned Your utter mishandling of my theology shows your general lack of knowledge of what we Calvinists actually believe. I also study other religions very thoroughly and am very adept at apologetics and engage in defending the faith daily. I do not conform to his creeds, I look to the Word of God and see that what he taught on the matter to be accurate. I don't agree with John Calvin on all points, so don't accuse me of only subscribing to his ideologies.
@chapmaned I prefer Augustinian, but I conform to what Scripture teaches. But when it comes to the doctrines of grace I pretty much agree with John Calvin. I'm a Christian first.
@DerZanDa Grace, which is the gift of eternal life, is given to those who "UNDERSTAND" that they have sinned against God, and that they are in need of a savior, and that repents for their sin, and being baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin. But those who have NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL are already in that Grace, which is UNMERITED FAVOR. In other words...There are prerequisites on YOUR PART for you to receive Grace.
@chapmaned Calvinists believe that Grace is 100% unmerited favor and all a gift from God. Calvinists believe people receive regenerative grace in order to be convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit and repent and also to have faith in Jesus. It's all grace.
@chapmaned You're presenting a straw man argument saying that Calvinists make no choices, and you use Joshua 24:15 to state that man does choose God see! But you misunderstand that we believe we choose God, but that's only because his effectual grace allows us to do so. Let me explain the bondage of the will to you, as moral agents we will make the choice that we have at the time of decision a higher inclination or proclivity towards.
@chapmaned Imagine you have two type of ice cream in front of you, chocolate and vanilla. You will inherently at the time of your decision have a inclination to pick one of those things over the other because of your proclivity to that certain ice cream. It works the same with God, when sin and God are weighed by man in his fallen state he will always choose sin because that is his nature, it is not until God regenerates that man to come to the truth can that man believe and then be saved.
@DerZanDa BE REMINDED THAT Names are deleted from the book of life, they are not added to. This shows that everyone has the opportunity to be saved (If they are lost to begin with), and it is NOT limited to any one group of people. Jesus died for everyone, and it is up to the individual to CHOOSE his own fate, IF YOU HAVE KNOWLEDGE. Original Sin is a screwed up doctrine from Catholicism, and Calvin continued a Catholic doctrine. He couldn't shake all of Catholicism from his body.
@DerZanDa SIN IS NOT IMPUTED (COUNTED) AGAINST ANYONE WHO HAS NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. ROMANS CHAPTERS 4-7 AND DEUTERONOMY 1:39, AND THE STORY OF ADAM AND EVE BEFORE THEY GOT KNOWLEDGE.
@chapmaned Sin spread to ALL MEN Romans 5 read it. If you don't believe that all men have sinned then you are a heretic and I'm done talking with you. Where does it say that names are taken out of the book of life? In fact he says I WILL NEVER BLOT OUT YOUR NAME. You deny mans sinful nature, which is pelagian and not a Christian view.
I am sorry to say it, but if I had to talk to the Irish guy I would feel as though, of all the people God could send me with a character, atitude, obnoxiousness, (even face) etc like his, God had definitely picked the EXACT one to most irritate me and seem to represent all things unChrist-like. But then, that would most probably be the best way God could use to illustrate to me how shamefully unChrist-like I was in my hatred towrds other people. God chooses us to make a choice, I believe.
Those saying the presenter, black guy moderator on the right is biased, that's is because Calvinism is a FRINGE! they are a small group, like Mormons and JW's, maybe a little bigger, but not that much
@openyourbible I hear you I came here to see what all the noise was about. Then I realized it was just that, noise. More noise to add onto the Christian divisions all in an desperate effort by Satan (I'm convinced) to divide Christians. In reality we should all be united trying to help each other to get closer to God. Acceptance, repentance, love, and obeyance. It's that simple doctrine that Satan doesn't want us to hear.
if christ died for ALL of manSin then God would be a unjust God, once a debt is paid it would be unjust for it to ask to be paid again, like wise if you were in court and someone paid your fine and justice was paid in full it would be unjust for the judge to come at you and ask for you to pay it again, so if christ died for everyone's sin and paid it in full then sends them to hell he would be unjust, why? because the sin of UNBELIEF was also paid. watch > Is Unbelief Sin, Non-Calvinist?
@greatestgiftis A gift can only be given if the receiver takes the gift from the giver. A guilty person can have their sentence commuted still has to accept the the verdict or the person will be punished. Offer and acceptance is God's contract with humans beings. God did all the work in and by Grace. A human only get the Grace of forgiveness by acceptance. God is all sovereign with in God's freedom of chose. .
@MRGV7373 God takes his Elect and does a work on them called The doctrine of regeneration, then the Elect who was not willing like all men them the Elect are now willing to except . Even the faith that the elect receive is a gift in order that they believe , it's all of God. The none elect he leaves them to there desires there choice, an there choice is to reject Christ and love there sin, all he does is remove his hand restrain his grace. Simpley give them what the wanted
It was only called Calvinism in honour of Calvin - who had already been dead 50 years when the Arminians brought their remonstrance to the Reformed Church and were defeated in the Synod of Dort. Luther wrote much more vehemently on this subject than Calvin ever did. Read his book "The Bondage of the Will" - then ask yourself how you can object to this with your logic. The derminator is not your logic, it is Scripture. Your logic is sinful.
"Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed," says the LORD, who has compassion on you.
@CBALLEN To me one of the most beautiful things about Jesus's teachings is how one man can look at them and feel saved, and another can look at them, and feel angry/confused among others things. It's great.
Look up "jesus is a jerk" on google. Seriously atheists really are fools :P
@CBALLEN For the same reason people teach in parables - to make difficult and/or foreign concepts more understandable through the use of language and concepts which are common to those hearing the message.
@taenstrom Jesus told His disciples the reason He taught in parables is so some wouldn't understand and be saved.In other words,Jesus just came to save HIS PEOPLE .This is staying consistent with scripture when it says that GOD will do all His Holy Will.When the Bible now says that salvation is for ALL people,it means not only Jews ,as it had always was in the OT,but Gentiles too.That's why the Lord;s will WILL be done and some still go to Hell,because that's exactly His will.
@CBALLEN The tortured interpretation was meant for this comment. I want to make sure I understand you - you theology is God chose to create a class of people who would not and could not understand the Gospel message, have no chance at redemption, are predestined to hell and in short, are without hope. This brings up several questions: 1) Why? 2) What about all of us being God's children? 3) What's the purpose of having any Gospel message at all if it's only for the elect?
1.To demonstrate All His attributes to His Creation.
2.No where does the Bible teach we are all God's children,it says only those adopted into the kingdom become children of God,Jesus called the Pharisees children of their father the Devil,as are all goats.
3.The Bible teaches that it is hearing the gospel that converts the sinner.Let all who have ears to hear,come.
@CBALLEN Again what attribute is God displaying through the His deliberate creation of a damned group? Hate/Vengence/Wrath? What happened to hating sin, but loving the sinner? And why, if God created a damned group, would there be the need for an 'external call'? At best it would be a sham - nothing more than God's cosmic tease. Additionally, this notion of irresistable grace seems to me to cheapen the whole process. What's the big deal about going to heaven if one never had a choice anyway?
@taenstrom Ever read any commentaries by Matthew Henry,John Gill,Johnathan Edwards?They are all first class Bible theologians and they all interpret it the same way.
@taenstrom The thing is everyone who repents and believes will be saved,so instead of worrying about the elect and non-elect,don't worry about it,who ever calls upon the name of the lord will be saved.Only the elect will do this.
@CBALLEN Thank you for helping me make my point - if ONLY the elect will repent, it can't be WHOEVER calls on the Lord - since one group is exclusive, while the other is inclusive. In fact, your theos says the non-elect can't call on the Lord, so the point regarding repetance is moot from the outset. Moreover, why would the elect need to repent since God has already pre-destined them to Heaven and will at some point give them an internal call and flip the grace switch to let them in?
@taenstrom ...Hey,I used to believe the same as you,and I didn't want it to be true,but people showed me the scriptures and I JUST COULDN'T DENY IT ANYMORE,LOL.It's earth shaking to say the least and I certainly didn't want it to be true.I was even asked to leave my church when my pastor found out what I believed ,I even helped start this church of 12 years and I left,but I would have left anyway since I didn't agree with what was being preached.
@CBALLEN Well I appreciate that, but I doubt you believed the same as me - unless you consider the passage from Proverbs 23:7 - "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he" to be one of the foundational tenants of Jesus' true message.
@taenstrom All false religions as well as Christian cults teach that man is able to choose his god,only true Christianity teaches God chooses His people.The angel says that you shall call Him Jesus,for He shall save His people.False christianity teaches that Jesus just tries to save everyone,but fails with the majority.True Christianity teaches that Jesus does not fail even one time,that all He intends to save will be saved and none will be lost to Hell,only the goats will be lost.
@CBALLEN Well, no one 'chooses his God' - God is God regardless of anyone's choice. But this still fails to address one of the fundamental inquiries - why would a supposedly loving and just God create a class of people bereft of hope? There is certainly no justice in pre-destining somone to hell. As for the love aspect, you said only the elect are God's children - who then created the non-elect? Now if your position is God creates the elect and Satan creates the non-elect, that's consistent.
@CBALLEN As noted earlier, I read Romans 9 and while I don't think your interpretation is in line with other scripture, it also brings up, again, this notion of evangelism. If your interpretation is correct, there is simply no utility in evangelism. The hardened can't hear it and even if by some chance they could they could not understand nor choose it; and the elect don't need it. I think this brings us full circle to the beginning.
@taenstrom The thing is preaching to every creature is a command,and HYPER-CALVINISTS don't evangelize,but Calvinists started all the colleges,hospital,sent missionaries and was the only protestant religion in America until 140 yrs ago,Arminianism is the Johnny come lately,it's roman Catholicism without the frills.
@CBALLEN And this brings us again to the circular aspect of the argument. You say evangelism is a commandment, but pre-destination makes it either moot or unnecessary. I appreciate the contributions made to society by Calvinists and again, I don't know what Arminianism is, my contention with Calvinism is based on logic, not theology.
Your perception of predestination is actually a description of fatalism{big deference}. Evangelism is necessary for it is used by God to accomplish His will in bringing His elect to faith in Christ.
@InTheSpirit12 Actually, this 'perception' is not mine, it is God's, as per Calvinists. This is so due to the principle of bivalence and thus this is where the logical disagreement arises. If God is as the Calvinist propose, there is simply no need for evangelism nor the commandments. God has already pre-destined the elect and the non - and since God cannot fail, none of the elect will fail to reach Heaven and the non have no hope to reach it - regardless of human efforts.
@InTheSpirit12 BTW - I've already seen this video series and while I feel the moderator could have certainly done a better job, I also think the Cavinist representative benefitted from the fact no one on the panel knew enough about their own theos, let alone his, to ask real questions. The ony time they got close is when they called him on the doctrine pertaining to those who died prior to Jesus. Just to re-iterate, I don't know what Armainism is. My objections to Calvin are logic based.
Acts 13:48 says that...as many as were appointed to eternal life.believed,,,NOTas many as believed was appointed to eternal life.Appointment must be done by The Father first,then belief will come
John 6:44 No one can come to me (none are able)unless the Father who sent me draws him (draw means to overcome all resistance,such as drawing water from a well,or drawing a bow string) and I will raise him up on the last day (once drawn ,they are saved and kept until their glorification,by Jesus).
@taenstrom This is the Arminian position " O God, thou knowest that I am the architect of my own fortunes and the determiner of my own destiny. Thou mayest indeed do something to help me in the securing of my purposes after I have determined upon them. But my heart is my own, and thou canst not intrude into it; my will is my own, and thou canst not bend it. When I wish thy aid, I will call on thee for it. Meanwhile, thou must await my pleasure." - BB Warfield
@CBALLEN Look, I don't even know what Arminianism is and my belief in what God desires for man is completely different from any of what has been talked about here. But I do know, from a purely logical perspective, a theos which holds a group of people are pre-destined, or elected, to go to heaven, yet must still be 'shown the way' is wholly inconsistent. Perhaps Calvinism doesn't recognize the common meaning of the term 'pre-destined.' If one is pre-destined there is no reason for the Gospel.
@CBALLEN It is God who causes us the be born again by changing our nature from a God hater to a God lover first,only then will we want our Lord Jesus.We didn't choose Him,He chose us.
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the
@CBALLEN No, Jesus said it is the Gospel that would lift Him up and He would draw all men to himself. The Calvin model is redundant. Now I do believe the Jesus who has been presented by the modern church is not the real Jesus.
@taenstrom All men in Jn 12simply means Jews and Gentiles,this meant a lot because only Jews were chosen in OT times and God hardened the Jew s hearts against Jesus so we Gentiles could be grafted in Romans 11.Because if the Jews would have accepted Jesus as Messiah,that would have been it,we who are Christians now would have never been chosen for salvation.
@CBALLEN Of course it meant Jews and Gentiles, b/c those are the only two types of people there are - even today. So all men = all men. To me, the message of Jesus was completely different from what has been portrayed in modern churches. Regardless, Calvinism has at least two (2) unresolved issues. Namely, the notion of pre-destination makes a mockery of the Cross and the Gospel; and two, I think it confuses knowledge with causation.
@taenstrom Hey,I didn't believe what I believe overnight either,but if you have the Holy Spirit in you,He'll lead you into all truth,I have to hit the hay,but it's been real nice talking to you,maybe we can talk some more later.God Bless
ps,if you need anything just PM me,I'll help anyway I can.
@taenstrom God's ways are not our ways,but it seems that when God does things differently than man would do them,man will reject God for one they can understand,one they've created in their own mind,one that is a failure just like man is.
@CBALLEN So everyone who is not a Calvinist looks at God as a failure? Nice. God calls Himself a God of justice and no thinking person can see any justice in pre-destining someone to Hell, esp. if Hell is supposed to be a place of torment and punishment. How could a just God punish someone for ending up precisely where he created them to end up? The Calvinistic refusal to recognize man as an independent moral agent is more troubling in this context than in the pre-destination to Heaven.
@taenstrom Did you read those verses in Romans 9 I showed you?That's the God of the Bible and some people will say that I'd never believe in a God like that and they are right,unless God takes out their hear of flesh,as scripture says,and replaces it with a heart of flesh that makes them born again, it is impossible.
@CBALLEN Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
@CBALLEN Wow, that is a tortured interpretation. Jesus said this to his apostles b/c they had been w/him and already understood what he was saying, but others did not. Not b/c God is trying to hide the message from others. What would be the purpose? Since Calvinism says there are only 2 types of people - Elect and Non - both types being pre-destined, there is no reason to talk to anyone, in parables or not.
Jn.3:16-- are we to assume that the word "world" in this passage means every single individual? Do we not recognize that there are quite a few different ways the term "world" is used, especially in John's writings? In Jn.17:9, Jesus says, "...I pray NOT for the world..." Clearly, the term "world" in Jn.3:16 is used in a different way than in 17:9.
The term "world" in Jn.3:16 is clearly used in a creative/eschatological sense, not in an individual sense.
host way toooooo biased
5686tobi 5 months ago
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To ARMINIANS -Romans 11:32 "for God has shut up all to unbelief, that he might have mercy on all".
To CALVINISTS -1 Timothy 4:10"for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of ALL MEN ESPECIALLY y of those believing."
DOUBTERS I Cor. 15:23-28"But every man in his own order:..For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet..last enemy...destroyed is DEATH... Son also Himself be subject unto Him..that God may be ALL IN ALL"
motibi 5 months ago
angus stewart is killing it with scripture!!!
storie773 5 months ago
how do we got free will on what god gave us!!!!
storie773 5 months ago
we aint got free will an christ didnt die in vein he died for his sheep
storie773 5 months ago
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. Revelation 13:8 notice how it doesn't say that the names were blot out of the book of life, but that their names were never written in the book of life.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa I covered this already...again, without caps, what time period is this? There are no Christians on the Earth during the time of Revelation 13:8. These are all who are left behind to go thru the judgments. Hello?
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned Well you believe in Pre-Tribulation rapture which I think honestly is a pretty bankrupt position with little to no support Biblically.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa How can that be? We are not for God's wrath. Romans 5:9.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned We are not under wrath but under grace. Does that mean that nothing bad ever happens to Christians?
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Not God's judgments. Hey, if you want to be here for his judgments, be my guest. Of course I believe in pre-trib. Why else would God take us out of the way?
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned It never states that he takes believers out explicitly.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Oh, please.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@DerZanDa And you totally misquoted Revelation 13:8. It does not say that their names were not written in the book from the foundation of the earth. It states that their names were not in the book of the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. Big difference.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned It means the same thing, you're just playing semantics now, the fact remains there names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, so I can perfectly state that their names never were in the book of life.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Oh, no no no...your rewording is different. You make it sound as if their names were never in that book. But it does not say that. Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation is what it states.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned I will link it once again... and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. I am not rewording this, it states that names that were not written from the foundation of the world were slain.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Sorry, Pal, try the KJV...Obviously, you have a bible that conforms to Calvinism.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned The KJV is hardly a more accurate translation as it has Latin influences as well in it's interpretation and words that have completely different meanings now.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa For someone against Latin, your Calvin knew it! However, your bible words things different than mine does.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned I don't worship Calvin, and it was customary for religious scholars of the time to read Latin as that was what was most common translated language of the Bible. I prefer to stick to the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. I don't think the KJV is a bad version per se, but I don't believe it should be used as a primary source at all. The KJV is usually used by people who are more legalistic.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa When we discuss the translations used, we also take into consideration which "original" texts to go by. The NIVr and others are of a different so called "original" text. And then you have the tainted "Wescott and Hort" translations. I trust the KJV in matters of doctrines.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned I don't use the NIV at all, I use the NASB, ESV and NKJV. All have a lot of scholarly support and are by my estimates very accurate to the Greek and Hebrew.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
like how can the created thing chose the creator>> meaning how can humans chose god when god make all things for a purpose. We we born in gods image an likeness, so in return we create things with a pupose. Thats just like if you created a couch for the purpose of being sat on and the couch tells you you cant sit on me until i tell you!!! DOES IT MAKES ANY SENSE NO!!!!! GLORY IS TO GOD AN NOT TO HUMANS IM OUT !!!!
storie773 5 months ago
Proverbs 3:5-6
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths".
storie773 5 months ago
I use to think we had free will to choose god. Until i read it for my self an it is self explanitor, most people dont read the bible for themselves, they listen to other preachers who thrive off of prospertiy gospel, to call other people to christiantiy who then base their actions an gods love off of works instead of faith...the two arminian are more basing stuff off what they believe in stead of what the word says.... I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK ITS WHAT THE WORD SAYS!!!
storie773 5 months ago
@storie773 If we don't choose God, then Christ died on the cross in vein. The Word states, Joshua 24:15
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK ITS WHAT THE WORD SAYS!!!
chapmaned 5 months ago
Us human's does not have any free will(accept only in the flesh) if we did, we will be able to break our selves away from sin, but we cant . Romans chapter 6:22 "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of god, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life".We did not make this world or the things in it or us!! Romans chapter 11:36 "For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen." I adivise every ne to read!!
storie773 5 months ago
@storie773 How about Romans 7:7-11 (DEAD TO SIN (Romans 6:2) means that you are ALIVE, while dead in sin means that you are dead)? We are born IN SIN and not WITH SIN (Original sin is a Catholic Augustine Doctrine) Deuteronomy 1:39 (DEAD TO SIN)? 1 John 3:9? Romans 3:20? Romans 5:13? Romans 7:7? Romans 5:13? Romans 4:15? Romans 4:8? I also advise to read.
chapmaned 5 months ago
So What is the message of the Gospel for the Calvinists? Is it, "Congratulations, God chose you...(and in small print), if you were selected from the foundation of the Earth...no purchase necessary!"
chapmaned 7 months ago
@chapmaned What a poor representation of the doctrines of grace. Arminianism lessens the power of God's grace, while Calvinism believes God's grace is so powerful that the scope is lessened. Does God owe it to ALL men to save them? The answer is simply no, the fact that anyone is saved is all due to the grace of God. Jesus died to SAVE US, not to make us salvable.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa I agree. There seems to be a huge confusion in those type of church's as to what Grace is. Even the Catholics think that Grace is "transferable" for one to give to others in a place they call purgatory, and that, while they use the word Grace, they think that salvation is still a merited issue, as if it is a wage that they earned, and expecting a paycheck of "eternal life" based on the work that they did. It is just so sad.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@DerZanDa But based on Calvinism, the death of Jesus on the cross was just for formality purposes only, as they were already saved from the foundation of the earth to begin with.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned God predestined man to be saved from the foundation of the world. It was not a formality, and I don't understand where you get that from, but the Cross was necessary to ensure the salvation of all those whom God had predestined to election as sons. Jesus' death on the Cross was not to give man an opportunity to be saved or to be salvable but in that moment ensured salvation for his sheep. Without the Crucifixion of Jesus there is no hope for salvation.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa God did not predestine WHICH INDIVIDUALS would be saved. God PROVIDED a means for individuals to be saved...IF THEY ARE LOST TO BEGIN WITH. I don't believe in straw man arguments. I believe what I read in the Bible. Read Deuteronomy 1:39, and Romans Chapters 4-7. The Pharaoh could not be LOST as no sin could be IMPUTED to him. Read my references before you comment. I don't misunderstand. In order to be lost, you were once OWNED (NOT LOST). NO knowledge=NOT LOST!
chapmaned 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Everyone...Everyone prior to being lost was not lost. Babies don't go to hell, as they are not lost to begin with UNTIL THEY GET KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. That is why in Deuteronomy 1:39 that the children got to go to the PROMISED LAND, which spiritually is heaven. Who else went to the PROMISED LAND? Caleb and Joshua, and why? Because they had FAITH. God did not force faith down their throat as Calvinism suggests. Promised Land = Faith and NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned I don't believe Babies go to hell either. But I also don't believe babies are just clean slates and have to learn to sin, if you believe that you never had or worked with kids, kids will just naturally sin. God does not force faith down our throats, but lovingly draws us completely unto himself, please stop butchering the doctrines of grace as you don't know anything about Calvinism except ridiculous propaganda.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa It is obvious that you did not read my references from the Bible, which was Deuteronomy 1:39 and ALL of Romans 4-7. SIN IS NOT "IMPUTED...IMPUTED...IMPUTED" to those who have NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. The only straw man arguments that I see is yours with examples of ice cream and that kids naturally sin. Without KNOWLEDGE, they are NOT ACCOUNTABLE. NO KNOWLEDGE=NO TRANSGRESSION=NO SIN. That is what Romans 4-7 and Deuteronomy 1:39 states. Please Read the references!!
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned I have Romans 4-7 memorized actually, and I read Deuteronomy 1:39. Shall I go through all of the Biblical references that show that we are wicked from the womb and as children? Let me ask you something, if I as a parent tell my child not to do something and he goes and does it anyway is he not sinning? I gave him the knowledge not to do something and yet he disobeyed me dishonoring me as a parent. ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Being "WICKED FROM THE WOMB" is not what I was talking about. What I was talking about, you can be as wicked as you want, but WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, YOU ARE NOT ACCOUNTABLE. TO THAT WICKEDNESS. You say that you don't believe that babies go to hell, but SOME Calvinists do, as they base their answer with "if they are not the elect". If you read correctly, CHRISTIANS as a whole is the ELECT....NOT INDIVIDUALS. You cannot disregard the word IMPUTE from romans 4-7.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned Am I those Calvinists? No. Please don't attack a belief that I don't subscribe to, you'll just be wasting your time. I believe babies are born wicked and sinful, but God being merciful chooses to save them in death because of their lack of responsibility to their sins. I will deny that man can live a sinless life, or has the ability to choose God.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Again, and yet you disregard Deuteronomy 1:39 and the word "IMPUTE".
chapmaned 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Revelation 22:19 states "...shall take away his part out of the book of life...". But your explanation downgrades that as a curse. Shame, shame on you for doing that, minimizing it, and not acknowledging that it is a deletion from the book of life.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned Excuse me? Curses are no small thing to me, as they mean eternal damnation. And I fully believe that if anyone ever changed the Word of God that they would go to Hell. Please stop inferring things that I don't believe.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa And yet, you minimized it, attempting to tell me that it didn't say what I said that it states.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned Revelations 22:19 is a very specific case, and you used it to try and say that names can be erased from the book of life. I deny that notion.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa You deny that notion because you do not comprehend what the book of life is. There are more references to the book of life and the word "BLOT OUT". Everyone begins this life with a clean slate. But your belief system is out of whack with the "BOOK OF LIFE".
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned The book of life is not the Bible. The book of life is a book in heaven that contains the names of all those who will be saved, and it was written before the foundation of the world. Even the Arminians believe this, your belief on this is outside of orthodoxy. We are not born with clean slates, that is Tabula Rasa and Pelagianism not a biblical concept and is indeed heresy.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Where do you get the idea that the names in the book of life are those who WILL BE SAVED? You have NOT read the bible. The Exact Phrase "BOOK OF LIFE" is written 8 times. The word "BLOT" in conjunction with the BOOK is in the Bible 5 times. There is NO SUCH THING AS REGENERATIVE GRACE. Sanctification is of the Holy Ghost AFTER salvation, after grace is given.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life. Philippians 4:3 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. Revelation 3:5
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Pleas...get with it...all those who ARE Christians are in the book of life. They will not be blotted out.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned I'm not going to correspond with you further if you do not correct your tone. All those who are, were and will ever be Christians have their names written in the book of life.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa No, Everyone begins with their names in that book, and are blotted out as needed. The only way to be blotted out is to have knowledge of good and evil, and reject God.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned Where do you get this from, that everyone has had their name written in the book of life? It does not say this at all. You are merely interjecting your own assertions into Revelation 3:5 to mean something that it does not.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa By studying the whole bible. Sin is what separates us from God. When there is no law, there is no transgression. You need to finish my references. There is a dispensation. 1. Before the law, 2. During the Law, and 3. After the Law.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. Revelation 13:8 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. Revelation 20:12
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa In Revelation 13:8, what specific TIME PERIOD is it discussing? Please...get with it.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 21:27 Now please concede that you are wrong on this matter, as I have just proved my case as to what the book of life is. Unless you believe every person who will be saved has their name written in the Bible...
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was accounted to him for RIGHTEOUSNESS, WITHOUT THE LAW. God did not make Abraham believe. NO SIN COULD BE ACCOUNTED TO ABRAHAM, BECAUSE IT WAS BEFORE THE LAW. The law is the KNOWLEDGE OF SIN...NO KNOWLEDGE=NO TRANSGRESSION=NO SIN ACCOUNTED.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned Romans 4 does not deal with predestination or regenerative grace, but justification by faith alone. If we're going to continue discussing you need to calm down and not type everything in all caps as it leads me to believe there is a mad man on the other side. And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed Acts (18:27) Can you explain this verse then?
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa I never said that Romans 4 did. My CONTEXT, however begins in chapter 4 with the EXAMPLES of Abraham.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned It simply never states in the case of Abraham if he had assistance in believing or not, but we learn from other passages that they require grace to believe.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Yes it does. It states that Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. But don't just stop at chapter 4, because it goes until chapter 7.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned It did not say why he believed as I said. And as I told you I have Romans 4-7 memorized and don't need you to lecture me on that content of scripture. Paul is using him to describe the doctrine of sola fide, if you wish to discuss the doctrine of election we can talk about Romans 8 and 9 which are actually relevant to this video.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Oh, my Goodness. Yes it does. Romans 3:3 "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned How does that scripture give reason to why Abraham believed? It merely states that Abraham received the righteousness of God that comes by faith. It does not explain he ultimately believed in the first place, you're interjecting your own opinions into the text now.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa That is my point, God did not make Abraham believe. Abraham believed on his own accord.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Romans 3:3 specifically states that Abraham believed and it was accounted to him for righteousness. You are re-wording it.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned Why do you keep bringing up Romans 3:3, it does not address the issue of his reasoning for believing at all, it simply just states he believed. It says this many place, but in some instances the Bible gives us insight as to why people believe.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Because there is no such thing as for a reason. God said something, and he believed it. You want there to be a reason that Abraham believed, but Abraham believed on his own accord. Your doctrine makes it out as if God had to make Abraham believe.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned I do believe that, and if Abraham believed of his own choice then he has something to boast about does he not? Don't we all if we ultimately are the ones who choose God. Calvinism gives ALL the glory to God, from start to finish.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa You need to study the book of Romans in more detail other than just Romans 9, for which Calvinism is stuck on. The opposite of Grace is attempting to obey the law (works). Abraham did not have works, as there was no law.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned I have Romans 1-9 memorized, please don't tell me to get to know the passages better... I probably read Romans 9 the least to be honest with you.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Like you expect me to believe that? If you did, then you would know that sin is not imputed where there is no law, and blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin, and the where no law is, there is no transgression????? Hmmmm...I highly doubt your claim of memorization.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned Romans 5:13 I'm familiar with it, and I already told you my stance on that verse. If you're going to accuse me of being a liar, that's fine with me as we are over the internet I cannot verify it. But if you call me a liar again I will be done discussing with you, as is I can probably do something much more fruitful with my time.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa I never used the word liar, but do not disregard the other verses in regards to the law, and that sin is not imputed, which means counted against you. 1 John 3:9 defines sin as the transgression of the law, and Abraham and the Pharaoh did not have the law. No sin could be accounted to them...either of them.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned Are you trying to assert that there was no sin at all before the law came?
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Are you hearing me? 1 John 3:9 defines sin as transgression of the law. Scripture states for all have sinned. That includes Abraham. But scripture states that sin is not imputed where there is no law. No sin could be accounted to Abraham because there was no law. The law came about 400 years later under Moses. This is why we are children of Abraham. Jesus took away sin (the law), just as it was under Abraham. The righteousness of Jesus is without the law (Romans 3:21).
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned Sin has been around since Adam, all the law did was increase the trespass. And it was increased so that grace may abound all the more. Jesus did not do away with the law, but he fulfilled the law rather. And we died to the law through the body of Christ so that we could belong to Jesus instead.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Why do you insist on ignoring the word impute, and the phrase "no transgression"?
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned And the word liar was inferred by your statement, you don't actually have to say the word for me to understand that is what you meant.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Romans 3:22-23 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all all all all all all and upon all all all all them that believe: for there is no difference: for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." What does the word all mean? Some? Also, scripture states that God is not a respector of persons. That means he did not choose who will be saved. We are all treated the same.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned I don't believe that there will be any person who believe whom God did not predestine, so that scripture does not hurt my position. And I don't think God is a respecter of persons either, I don't think there is anything admirable or worthy about the gift of salvation that was placed upon me. The very choice for choosing me was all grace.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa You have a twisted version of what Grace is. Again, in order to understand what Grace is, you need to know what the opposite of Grace is. What is the opposite of grace?
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned Excuse me!? I'm done talking with you now, I have better things to do with my time then listen then partake in this fruitless discussion.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Be that as it may, you don't know the opposite of grace. The opposite of Grace is the law.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@DerZanDa And of course Calvinists are indeed familiar with Romans 5:13. Other than Romans 9, that is the most referenced, but only as a purpose to teach original sin, which is non-existent.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@DerZanDa My caps are for emphasis only. Sorry.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned No emphasis needed, I can perfectly ascertain your inflections if you use proper grammar. And apology accepted.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa And lets not forget Deuteronomy 1:39 as if it doesn't mean anything, because at one time, Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil, as well. Ignorance of the Law is the excuse. Ignorance is bliss.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@DerZanDa In regards to the book of life deleting names...Revelation 22:19, and others. Look up the KEY WORD "BLOT". You will find it. In other words, do you own research instead of buying off on Calvin's Doctrine, which is a carry over from Catholicism, and yet, he has the nerve to call it reform!!!! HA!
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned I did my own research, I wasn't always a Calvinist and worked through SCRIPTURE to come to the conclusion that it was correct in regards to the doctrine of predestination. Revelation 22:19 is about a curse upon anyone who will take or add any words into the Bible. This does not destroy my claim whatsoever and is frankly irrelevant to the conversation.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@chapmaned I am a student of the Bible being mentored by my Senior Pastor, I study the Bible for the majority of my day I make absolutely sure that my beliefs are in alignment with the theology presented in the Bible.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Oh, and I make it my hobby to study the belief system of peoples religions. I have for years. Therefore, you cannot accuse me of not knowing anything about Calvinism. I have come to the conclusion that in denominations, someone else DECIDED what scripture states, and then you conform to his creeds. In a NON-DENOMINATION, it is like Fox News...WE REPORT, YOU DECIDE. In yours, someone else already decided, and you conform to them...OR ELSE.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned Your utter mishandling of my theology shows your general lack of knowledge of what we Calvinists actually believe. I also study other religions very thoroughly and am very adept at apologetics and engage in defending the faith daily. I do not conform to his creeds, I look to the Word of God and see that what he taught on the matter to be accurate. I don't agree with John Calvin on all points, so don't accuse me of only subscribing to his ideologies.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa And yet, you do misdirection, and minimize deuteronomy 1:39, and disregard the word "IMPUTE" from our conversation.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@DerZanDa You do not conform to his creeds, and yet you are called a Calvinist?
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned I prefer Augustinian, but I conform to what Scripture teaches. But when it comes to the doctrines of grace I pretty much agree with John Calvin. I'm a Christian first.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa If you knew your history about Augustine, you wouldn't. I prefer PAUL, PETER, MOSES, ISAIAH, JESUS, ETC.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Calvin has a distorted view of what Grace is, and who it is given to, and why.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned Why do you believe grace is given then, and I will see if it lines up with the teachings of the Bible.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa Grace, which is the gift of eternal life, is given to those who "UNDERSTAND" that they have sinned against God, and that they are in need of a savior, and that repents for their sin, and being baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin. But those who have NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL are already in that Grace, which is UNMERITED FAVOR. In other words...There are prerequisites on YOUR PART for you to receive Grace.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned Calvinists believe that Grace is 100% unmerited favor and all a gift from God. Calvinists believe people receive regenerative grace in order to be convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit and repent and also to have faith in Jesus. It's all grace.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@chapmaned You're presenting a straw man argument saying that Calvinists make no choices, and you use Joshua 24:15 to state that man does choose God see! But you misunderstand that we believe we choose God, but that's only because his effectual grace allows us to do so. Let me explain the bondage of the will to you, as moral agents we will make the choice that we have at the time of decision a higher inclination or proclivity towards.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@chapmaned Imagine you have two type of ice cream in front of you, chocolate and vanilla. You will inherently at the time of your decision have a inclination to pick one of those things over the other because of your proclivity to that certain ice cream. It works the same with God, when sin and God are weighed by man in his fallen state he will always choose sin because that is his nature, it is not until God regenerates that man to come to the truth can that man believe and then be saved.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
@DerZanDa BE REMINDED THAT Names are deleted from the book of life, they are not added to. This shows that everyone has the opportunity to be saved (If they are lost to begin with), and it is NOT limited to any one group of people. Jesus died for everyone, and it is up to the individual to CHOOSE his own fate, IF YOU HAVE KNOWLEDGE. Original Sin is a screwed up doctrine from Catholicism, and Calvin continued a Catholic doctrine. He couldn't shake all of Catholicism from his body.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@DerZanDa SIN IS NOT IMPUTED (COUNTED) AGAINST ANYONE WHO HAS NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. ROMANS CHAPTERS 4-7 AND DEUTERONOMY 1:39, AND THE STORY OF ADAM AND EVE BEFORE THEY GOT KNOWLEDGE.
chapmaned 5 months ago
@chapmaned Sin spread to ALL MEN Romans 5 read it. If you don't believe that all men have sinned then you are a heretic and I'm done talking with you. Where does it say that names are taken out of the book of life? In fact he says I WILL NEVER BLOT OUT YOUR NAME. You deny mans sinful nature, which is pelagian and not a Christian view.
DerZanDa 5 months ago
I am sorry to say it, but if I had to talk to the Irish guy I would feel as though, of all the people God could send me with a character, atitude, obnoxiousness, (even face) etc like his, God had definitely picked the EXACT one to most irritate me and seem to represent all things unChrist-like. But then, that would most probably be the best way God could use to illustrate to me how shamefully unChrist-like I was in my hatred towrds other people. God chooses us to make a choice, I believe.
Galatians514 8 months ago
Jesus died for all humans. Many does not exclude anyone. So Jesus blood is shed for all. One died for all in John from the high priest's prophesy.
MRGV7373 9 months ago
Those saying the presenter, black guy moderator on the right is biased, that's is because Calvinism is a FRINGE! they are a small group, like Mormons and JW's, maybe a little bigger, but not that much
hemet92544 9 months ago
This is painful to watch.......
kamaujackson811 10 months ago
two charismatics against a non-charismatic and still the non-charismatic won with more scriptures in harmony.
the host is not neutrral cos he bless the other but not the other
TheMonetwork 10 months ago
two charismatics against a non-charismatic and still the non-charismatic won with more scriptures in harmony
TheMonetwork 10 months ago
@openyourbible I hear you I came here to see what all the noise was about. Then I realized it was just that, noise. More noise to add onto the Christian divisions all in an desperate effort by Satan (I'm convinced) to divide Christians. In reality we should all be united trying to help each other to get closer to God. Acceptance, repentance, love, and obeyance. It's that simple doctrine that Satan doesn't want us to hear.
Biblehastheanswer 11 months ago
@6:54. I'm not sure about Calvinism but the presenter is exposed (rightly) as being blatantly biased!
musicbox2345 1 year ago
@musicbox2345 Thank you!
Doulos7608 11 months ago
if christ died for ALL of manSin then God would be a unjust God, once a debt is paid it would be unjust for it to ask to be paid again, like wise if you were in court and someone paid your fine and justice was paid in full it would be unjust for the judge to come at you and ask for you to pay it again, so if christ died for everyone's sin and paid it in full then sends them to hell he would be unjust, why? because the sin of UNBELIEF was also paid. watch > Is Unbelief Sin, Non-Calvinist?
greatestgiftis 1 year ago
@greatestgiftis A gift can only be given if the receiver takes the gift from the giver. A guilty person can have their sentence commuted still has to accept the the verdict or the person will be punished. Offer and acceptance is God's contract with humans beings. God did all the work in and by Grace. A human only get the Grace of forgiveness by acceptance. God is all sovereign with in God's freedom of chose. .
MRGV7373 9 months ago
@MRGV7373 God takes his Elect and does a work on them called The doctrine of regeneration, then the Elect who was not willing like all men them the Elect are now willing to except . Even the faith that the elect receive is a gift in order that they believe , it's all of God. The none elect he leaves them to there desires there choice, an there choice is to reject Christ and love there sin, all he does is remove his hand restrain his grace. Simpley give them what the wanted
greatestgiftis 9 months ago
It was only called Calvinism in honour of Calvin - who had already been dead 50 years when the Arminians brought their remonstrance to the Reformed Church and were defeated in the Synod of Dort. Luther wrote much more vehemently on this subject than Calvin ever did. Read his book "The Bondage of the Will" - then ask yourself how you can object to this with your logic. The derminator is not your logic, it is Scripture. Your logic is sinful.
Halloranhill 1 year ago
lol i love those questions :D
Nakutao 1 year ago
"he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD." 1 John 2:2
cornwallsteve 1 year ago
Isaiah 54:10
"Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed," says the LORD, who has compassion on you.
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
whosoever not in the original??? That is a boldfaced lie! "Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν Υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς Αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον."
The "πᾶς" you see is "pas" which is translated "all, any, every, the whole..."
This guy is a liar... no wonder he's a calvinist. I'd be one too if I was a liar...
BibleGeeek 1 year ago
To all Arminians,why did Jesus teach in parables?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN To mess with people's heads.
TheCarydal 1 year ago
@TheCarydal Amen.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN To me one of the most beautiful things about Jesus's teachings is how one man can look at them and feel saved, and another can look at them, and feel angry/confused among others things. It's great.
Look up "jesus is a jerk" on google. Seriously atheists really are fools :P
TheCarydal 1 year ago
@CBALLEN For the same reason people teach in parables - to make difficult and/or foreign concepts more understandable through the use of language and concepts which are common to those hearing the message.
taenstrom 1 year ago
@taenstrom Jesus told His disciples the reason He taught in parables is so some wouldn't understand and be saved.In other words,Jesus just came to save HIS PEOPLE .This is staying consistent with scripture when it says that GOD will do all His Holy Will.When the Bible now says that salvation is for ALL people,it means not only Jews ,as it had always was in the OT,but Gentiles too.That's why the Lord;s will WILL be done and some still go to Hell,because that's exactly His will.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN The tortured interpretation was meant for this comment. I want to make sure I understand you - you theology is God chose to create a class of people who would not and could not understand the Gospel message, have no chance at redemption, are predestined to hell and in short, are without hope. This brings up several questions: 1) Why? 2) What about all of us being God's children? 3) What's the purpose of having any Gospel message at all if it's only for the elect?
taenstrom 1 year ago
1.To demonstrate All His attributes to His Creation.
2.No where does the Bible teach we are all God's children,it says only those adopted into the kingdom become children of God,Jesus called the Pharisees children of their father the Devil,as are all goats.
3.The Bible teaches that it is hearing the gospel that converts the sinner.Let all who have ears to hear,come.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Again what attribute is God displaying through the His deliberate creation of a damned group? Hate/Vengence/Wrath? What happened to hating sin, but loving the sinner? And why, if God created a damned group, would there be the need for an 'external call'? At best it would be a sham - nothing more than God's cosmic tease. Additionally, this notion of irresistable grace seems to me to cheapen the whole process. What's the big deal about going to heaven if one never had a choice anyway?
taenstrom 1 year ago
@taenstrom Did you read Romans 9,IT ANSWERS YOU.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Yes I read it - but I'm not sure your interpretation lines up with other passages (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Tim. 2:20, 21).
taenstrom 1 year ago
@taenstrom Ever read any commentaries by Matthew Henry,John Gill,Johnathan Edwards?They are all first class Bible theologians and they all interpret it the same way.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@taenstrom The thing is everyone who repents and believes will be saved,so instead of worrying about the elect and non-elect,don't worry about it,who ever calls upon the name of the lord will be saved.Only the elect will do this.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Thank you for helping me make my point - if ONLY the elect will repent, it can't be WHOEVER calls on the Lord - since one group is exclusive, while the other is inclusive. In fact, your theos says the non-elect can't call on the Lord, so the point regarding repetance is moot from the outset. Moreover, why would the elect need to repent since God has already pre-destined them to Heaven and will at some point give them an internal call and flip the grace switch to let them in?
taenstrom 1 year ago
@taenstrom The thing is Brother,only the Elect will call on the Lord,goats would never call on Him.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@taenstrom ...Hey,I used to believe the same as you,and I didn't want it to be true,but people showed me the scriptures and I JUST COULDN'T DENY IT ANYMORE,LOL.It's earth shaking to say the least and I certainly didn't want it to be true.I was even asked to leave my church when my pastor found out what I believed ,I even helped start this church of 12 years and I left,but I would have left anyway since I didn't agree with what was being preached.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Well I appreciate that, but I doubt you believed the same as me - unless you consider the passage from Proverbs 23:7 - "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he" to be one of the foundational tenants of Jesus' true message.
taenstrom 1 year ago
Comment removed
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@taenstrom All false religions as well as Christian cults teach that man is able to choose his god,only true Christianity teaches God chooses His people.The angel says that you shall call Him Jesus,for He shall save His people.False christianity teaches that Jesus just tries to save everyone,but fails with the majority.True Christianity teaches that Jesus does not fail even one time,that all He intends to save will be saved and none will be lost to Hell,only the goats will be lost.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Well, no one 'chooses his God' - God is God regardless of anyone's choice. But this still fails to address one of the fundamental inquiries - why would a supposedly loving and just God create a class of people bereft of hope? There is certainly no justice in pre-destining somone to hell. As for the love aspect, you said only the elect are God's children - who then created the non-elect? Now if your position is God creates the elect and Satan creates the non-elect, that's consistent.
taenstrom 1 year ago
@taenstrom Read romans 9:8-24 Paul answers that very question that you are asking,you will be amazed.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN As noted earlier, I read Romans 9 and while I don't think your interpretation is in line with other scripture, it also brings up, again, this notion of evangelism. If your interpretation is correct, there is simply no utility in evangelism. The hardened can't hear it and even if by some chance they could they could not understand nor choose it; and the elect don't need it. I think this brings us full circle to the beginning.
taenstrom 1 year ago
@taenstrom The thing is preaching to every creature is a command,and HYPER-CALVINISTS don't evangelize,but Calvinists started all the colleges,hospital,sent missionaries and was the only protestant religion in America until 140 yrs ago,Arminianism is the Johnny come lately,it's roman Catholicism without the frills.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN And this brings us again to the circular aspect of the argument. You say evangelism is a commandment, but pre-destination makes it either moot or unnecessary. I appreciate the contributions made to society by Calvinists and again, I don't know what Arminianism is, my contention with Calvinism is based on logic, not theology.
taenstrom 1 year ago
@taenstrom
Your perception of predestination is actually a description of fatalism{big deference}. Evangelism is necessary for it is used by God to accomplish His will in bringing His elect to faith in Christ.
God bless :-)
InTheSpirit12 1 year ago
@InTheSpirit12 Actually, this 'perception' is not mine, it is God's, as per Calvinists. This is so due to the principle of bivalence and thus this is where the logical disagreement arises. If God is as the Calvinist propose, there is simply no need for evangelism nor the commandments. God has already pre-destined the elect and the non - and since God cannot fail, none of the elect will fail to reach Heaven and the non have no hope to reach it - regardless of human efforts.
taenstrom 1 year ago
@InTheSpirit12 BTW - I've already seen this video series and while I feel the moderator could have certainly done a better job, I also think the Cavinist representative benefitted from the fact no one on the panel knew enough about their own theos, let alone his, to ask real questions. The ony time they got close is when they called him on the doctrine pertaining to those who died prior to Jesus. Just to re-iterate, I don't know what Armainism is. My objections to Calvin are logic based.
taenstrom 1 year ago
Acts 13:48 says that...as many as were appointed to eternal life.believed,,,NOTas many as believed was appointed to eternal life.Appointment must be done by The Father first,then belief will come
John 6:44 No one can come to me (none are able)unless the Father who sent me draws him (draw means to overcome all resistance,such as drawing water from a well,or drawing a bow string) and I will raise him up on the last day (once drawn ,they are saved and kept until their glorification,by Jesus).
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@taenstrom This is the Arminian position " O God, thou knowest that I am the architect of my own fortunes and the determiner of my own destiny. Thou mayest indeed do something to help me in the securing of my purposes after I have determined upon them. But my heart is my own, and thou canst not intrude into it; my will is my own, and thou canst not bend it. When I wish thy aid, I will call on thee for it. Meanwhile, thou must await my pleasure." - BB Warfield
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Look, I don't even know what Arminianism is and my belief in what God desires for man is completely different from any of what has been talked about here. But I do know, from a purely logical perspective, a theos which holds a group of people are pre-destined, or elected, to go to heaven, yet must still be 'shown the way' is wholly inconsistent. Perhaps Calvinism doesn't recognize the common meaning of the term 'pre-destined.' If one is pre-destined there is no reason for the Gospel.
taenstrom 1 year ago
@taenstrom Jesus said that it's the gospel that causes His people to come.I don't make the rules I just follow them.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@CBALLEN It is God who causes us the be born again by changing our nature from a God hater to a God lover first,only then will we want our Lord Jesus.We didn't choose Him,He chose us.
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the
resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN No, Jesus said it is the Gospel that would lift Him up and He would draw all men to himself. The Calvin model is redundant. Now I do believe the Jesus who has been presented by the modern church is not the real Jesus.
taenstrom 1 year ago
@taenstrom All men in Jn 12simply means Jews and Gentiles,this meant a lot because only Jews were chosen in OT times and God hardened the Jew s hearts against Jesus so we Gentiles could be grafted in Romans 11.Because if the Jews would have accepted Jesus as Messiah,that would have been it,we who are Christians now would have never been chosen for salvation.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Of course it meant Jews and Gentiles, b/c those are the only two types of people there are - even today. So all men = all men. To me, the message of Jesus was completely different from what has been portrayed in modern churches. Regardless, Calvinism has at least two (2) unresolved issues. Namely, the notion of pre-destination makes a mockery of the Cross and the Gospel; and two, I think it confuses knowledge with causation.
taenstrom 1 year ago
@taenstrom Hey,I didn't believe what I believe overnight either,but if you have the Holy Spirit in you,He'll lead you into all truth,I have to hit the hay,but it's been real nice talking to you,maybe we can talk some more later.God Bless
ps,if you need anything just PM me,I'll help anyway I can.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@taenstrom God's ways are not our ways,but it seems that when God does things differently than man would do them,man will reject God for one they can understand,one they've created in their own mind,one that is a failure just like man is.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN So everyone who is not a Calvinist looks at God as a failure? Nice. God calls Himself a God of justice and no thinking person can see any justice in pre-destining someone to Hell, esp. if Hell is supposed to be a place of torment and punishment. How could a just God punish someone for ending up precisely where he created them to end up? The Calvinistic refusal to recognize man as an independent moral agent is more troubling in this context than in the pre-destination to Heaven.
taenstrom 1 year ago
@taenstrom Did you read those verses in Romans 9 I showed you?That's the God of the Bible and some people will say that I'd never believe in a God like that and they are right,unless God takes out their hear of flesh,as scripture says,and replaces it with a heart of flesh that makes them born again, it is impossible.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Sholud be unless God takes out their heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh(it's getting late)
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
Matt.13
And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted."
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Wow, that is a tortured interpretation. Jesus said this to his apostles b/c they had been w/him and already understood what he was saying, but others did not. Not b/c God is trying to hide the message from others. What would be the purpose? Since Calvinism says there are only 2 types of people - Elect and Non - both types being pre-destined, there is no reason to talk to anyone, in parables or not.
taenstrom 1 year ago
Jn.3:16-- are we to assume that the word "world" in this passage means every single individual? Do we not recognize that there are quite a few different ways the term "world" is used, especially in John's writings? In Jn.17:9, Jesus says, "...I pray NOT for the world..." Clearly, the term "world" in Jn.3:16 is used in a different way than in 17:9.
The term "world" in Jn.3:16 is clearly used in a creative/eschatological sense, not in an individual sense.
rkg62976 1 year ago