Inside Story - Arab Israeli Coexistence - Oct 13 -Part 1

[steute2011]

Another wonderful example of Israeli style Democracy!!

[JohnnyRock2000]

Jews dominate within Israel and Palestine. Jews rediculously claim democracy, while denying Arab culture, Arab land ownership and thousands of other discriminations from the world's most racist state. Israel is now entirely right wing and will some time soon be judged by millions of Arabs that are looking to Israel for justice for their crimes. As they say, Israel is a one bomb country. The whine will be heard world wide.

[src438]

That so chip to interview a parlament icon when bunch of bottles of liquer in the backround - some class and educations will help.

[Lagolop]

So again we see arabs instigating problems.

[steute2011]

@Lagolop How can they be causing the problem, when it was their homes that were burnt down? You racist people are the worst and then you run around crying about antisemitism. You are truly shameless.

[Lagolop]

@steute2011

The arabs only understand destruction, hatred violence and death, unlike the Israeli Jews, Xtians and Atheists who only want peace & freedom.

What do you mean by calling ME a racist. I've said nothing racist. AND I am hardly one to cry "anti-semitism". You pricks always pull that card on the Jews. YAWN... boring already, find another mantra.

PS How the fuck do you know what religion I am (if I have one at all). One need not be Jewish nor religious to want to support Israel.

[steute2011]

@Lagolop You completely contradict yourself...how can you not be a racist, when you have in both your comments insist that "Arabs" instigators of problems (like the illegal settlements being built by Israel), only understand destruction (like when Israeli's bulldoze Arab homes) hatred ( like the Jews in this video who broke the Arabs window, just because he drove through a Jewish neighborhood), violence (like the Jews in the video, burning down Arab homes) and death ( like the Gaza massacre).

[steute2011]

@Lagolop You are correct need not be Jewish or Religious, but certainly brain washed into believing the bullshit lies about what's really going on in that area. Then again you could just not give a shit about right and wrong.

[Lagolop]

@steute2011

I admit I may not like arabs (in general) and I detest islam (not only arabs are islamic) BUT that doesn't make me a racist. Arabs are Not a race anymore than Scots or Swedes.

AND what makes you the expert on Middle East affairs?

[steute2011]

@Lagolop Arabs are technically not a race, as Jews are not a race. They can both be considered ethnic groups. However, when using the term "racist", we all instinctively know that this technicality has no significance. In any case, your views of these people seems to come from some event that you have wrongfully associated with everyone who practices Islam or is Arab? I am not an expert, I simply research the facts on both sides, compare it with international law and develop an opinion.

[Lagolop]

@steute2011

"Arabs are technically not a race"

I rest my case.

You speak of brainwashing and fact finding? I think that applies to YOU!

[steute2011]

@Lagolop OK, since you want to play semantics, I will just call you a bigot! Better? Now stop watching Fox News or you will only get worst.

[Lagolop]

@steute2011

Fine, call me what you will.

PS I don't watch Fox; don't even get the channel with our cable service. Too bad.

[Lagolop]

@steute2011

Further, it has been more than amply demonstrated that arabs/muslims have a wish to see Israel utterly destroyed. They besmirch the name of Jews worldwide & deny Israel. Leftist anarchists have joined the throng of arab/muslim pandering naive idiots.

If I was an Israeli Jew I'd not want arabs or muslims in my country, but the gov of Israel is fully democratic & ALL have full freedoms there.

That's how I call it. I'm going next winter to personally witness what goes on.

[steute2011]

@Lagolop Again, you sound like Glenn Beck. Just repeating what you hear on the news. Grow up and develop your own opinion based on all the facts. Yet another misconception provided to you via the media...Muslims do not enjoy full freedoms in Israel. Do a little research. You will not see what goes on in the illegally occupied territories, because you will not be allowed there. That's were the abuses by Israel are taking place and they do not want you to see that.

[Lagolop]

@steute2011

And how about you not acting like a condescending cunt if you want to talk to me?

Have you ever been to Israel, know any Israelis, know any Jews or Christians living there? Do you even know any God damn muslims ... period?

[Lagolop]

@steute2011

I find it rich that you accuse me of watching FOX when I am watching YOUR filthy arab rag RIGHT HERE to try and get a different view.

PS I happen to enjoy GB, he has balls to say what he thinks and has not castrated himself with political correctness and pandering to a misogynistic death cult.

PPS I am a Zionist, a Neo Zionist. I truly believe int he revival of the movement. I fully support Israel, our gov fully supports Israel too. Israel is our ally.

[steute2011]

@Lagolop Your no Zionist, your just a dumb punk, who hates Arabs. Why don't you go tell the family members of the 34 US sailors who died on the USS Liberty about how Israel is our ally. Israel is the US leech, they couldn't give 2 shits about you and your stupid Neo Zionist bullshit! They just want the money (3 billion dollars a year). So go jerk yourself off to some Glenn Beck videos.

[Lagolop]

@steute2011

Ah yes, the Liberty "mantra". LONG ago proven to be an accident. Liberty NOT ID'iing itself. Lesson to all.

I'm not a Zionist? I love it when twats like you tell other what they are, who they are, what they believe. If I say black, you will say white. Fuck ya. I know who I am and what I stand for so don't inform me.

2 can play that game; u r a liberal leftist arab pandering twat. And what about the money that the fakestinians get?!?! Israel is an ally; deal with it or move.

[steute2011]

@Lagolop You probably forgot that there were 170 survivors on that ship...dick cheese! I was about as accidental as the bomb on Hiroshima. Not a Zionist? Look back at your own post..."PPS I am a Zionist, a Neo Zionist." Stop smoking that shit! As for moving, you are the one sucking Zionist dick and soon going to find a boyfriend in Telaviv, so why not just stay there? Maybe get a niece tattoo of the Israeli flag on your ass cheek? Now fuck off smegma!

[Lagolop]

@steute2011

I didn't forget there were survivors; that does that have to do with the accident?

I AM a Zionist; I never said I was not. In fact if you re-read what I wrote it said so quite clearly, dope.

I understand you are infuriated and filled with impotent rage (as most leftists and muslims are), but really, your language could use a bit of cleaning up.

[steute2011]

@Lagolop The 170 survivors have everything to do with what really happen. A few of those survivors have spoken out and their versions of events do not support the 'accident" excuse, given by Israel. Furthermore, there were 2 IDF officers whom also spoke about what happen on that day, which clearly shows that they knew it was an American ship. About my language, it was you who started with the foul language, "cunt" and 'fuck ya". So I guess your could take your own advise.

[Lagolop]

@steute2011

And as for your sexual epithets about gays, I find it that often times those that scream the loudest are usually the ones that have the most self doubts about their sexual orientation. Perhaps you are gay and hate it so you lash out?

And ya, u can be gay in Israel cuz it is a free democracy unlike all the surrounding islamic shit holes where you would be crucified for being a homo.

Israel BTW, is not immune to idiots leftists and whiners (to the delight of you ilk).

[Lagolop]

@steute2011

And more than a few have spoken out CONTRARY to what you imply. You stepped into that pile ... LOL.

[steute2011]

@Lagolop I won't continue to tell you what you don't want to hear. So, keep your head in the sand. If you ever want to know the truth, it can easily be found. Good luck with that tattoo, that's gonna hurt!

[shayshalom]

arabs go out of my historical land - u have 22 states go there if u r suffering animal bastards who never pay taxes or serve the state - one day the jews will have enough with u n we r waiting 4 this day

[StraussBR]

@shayshalom

you are just as racist as the anti-semtic that persecute you

[TheTollundWoman]

Whoever participated in this riot is a disgrace to Israel and everything it stands for! Shame.

[fndog]

I lived in Jerusalem for the last 8 years and can relate to this discussion. Unfortunately, Arabs don't feel comfortable in "Israeli" towns and we don't feel comfortable in their towns. I think the whole thing is stupid. Everyone should be treated equally. I don't care what race, religion, and ideologies you have. America has proved its ability to remove racism that was prevalent for thousands of years, now its time for Israel, the rest of the Middle East, and hopefully the rest of the world!

[gameking50P]

the only answer is a one-state solution where jews and muslims live in peace and equality and are INTEGRATED with one another

[Tomislavv2]

@gameking50P

You can dream as much you wish that there will be no Israel,Israel is here to stay for ever.Anyone trying to atack Jewish statehood will pay intolerable high prize

[TheTollundWoman]

@Tomislavv2

well said. Israel is here to stay!

[Shanniquitie]

SAVE THE PALESTINIAN INNOCENTS

[TheTollundWoman]

@Shanniquitie

Save ALL innocents

[Shanniquitie]

@TheTollundWoman especially those who are being destroyed systematically by Zionist Nazis. AMEN.

[MojaveViper29]

ATM, you know very little of Israeli society. You just repeat ignorant remarks.

[coldbloodykiller5]

hahahahahahahaahahahahaha wtf u xpect all u live in a holiday omigod arabs really piss me of

[khitb]

equally ... thats bullshit

[99domino99]

Ugh I'm english and while im not so fond of arabs- I absolutely HATE Israelis and so do alot of people here. They are basically ugly nazis trying to purify their stolen land. Can't stand those fuckers, they talk so much shit. The excuse that they're protecting themselves is BULL

[SLADODET]

Well this I can say..,israelis are among some of the most rudest/impolite fuckers I have ever meet!There's no politesse what so ever when they are dealing with each other as well as other people,especially when you get them in a large group.Rude,rude fuckers!

[alexanderlinden]

Well you two seem to be very polite and thoughtfull in your expression yourselfs!

The pot blames the kettle

[ATMleb]

You can't blame them. They a very militarized society where every person goes through 2 or 3 years of brainwashing. They are convinced to put their lives on the line so they can satisfy the ego and plans of the leaders

[iyavor]

Israel's a democratic country with a free press, free speech and a variety of political opinions. I think its citizens are very aware of how crucial their participation in defending the country really is.

[piromx2]

you stupid english muffin? you don't know wtf your talkiing about? so shut up!

[99domino99]

lol "engish muffin" then a question mark?! you cant even insult me properly and trust me, I do know what I'm talking about. We all do, we're sickened to death by how much it's rammed down our throats and our hearts are with the INNOCENT palestinian civilians being killed by Israeli attacks, even the UN sees this but Israel keeps coming out with bullshit excuses. Israel=the most un-humanitarian country right now and I've been there-its a shithole.

[skymunro]

Really? ?More inhumane (unhumanitarian, you're the idiot) then Lebanon, where women cant look men in the eyes? More inhumane then Sudan who is neglecting their own Muslim people and killing them? I mean you want me to go on? Why is it, an an Englishman tell me, that when Palestine was a mandate it was vacated by arabs, it was 36% Jewish, hardly an insignifigant minority, yet when Jews statred to move back and bring water to the desert then they wanted land? you know nothing of the history.

[iyavor]

@99domino99 Bombing of civilians in Sderot for eight years apparently didn't sicken you at all, that's apparently excusable, no?

[skymunro]

you're an idot and an uneducated bigot

[luball416]

YOu realistically don't like zoinists, I am guessing. neither do I

[iyavor]

@luball416 you only wish you knew what a Zionist is- do you mean the original and authentic definition, or the Zionism that the Arabs made up?

[PLOAuthority]

Palestinian citizens of Israel should serve the Israeli Army AFTER a regional peace deal is agreed upon which includes a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem its capital ALONGSIDE Israel

[ballbreaker1900]

make all isreali arabs serve in the army that will solve the problem!

[halpyman]

yea so they can betrey the israelis, great idea, not

[allforall48]

the riot was bad, but if it had been the other way around and a jew did something bad on like radaman all the jews would be killed

[dukke61]

when pals are attacked the isrlies have them removed claiming they are trying to protect them. but the fact is it is a ploy to purify that part of the country. like when the shooter that attacked hundreds of worshipers in a mosque, the isrlie gov't refused the arab population from going back claiming that they are protecting them but the fact is they are purifying it for their own agenda. the arabs are right when they protest for they know whats relly happening.

[fivestarmichael]

TVparkdale... if you want to see an interesting video, check out, "American show its TERRIBLE part1" The video is very interesting.

I have been having some interesting conversations with Russians. You and I might think we are distinctive. However, they see Canada, Britain, New Zealand, Australia and America as one big threat.

[TVParkdale]

fivestarmichael:

We're about as threatening as Sweden:p

All we want is to spread the joy of Bison Burgers, Stampede BBQ sauce and Labatt's Blue with a side order of good healthcare.

However, with our idiot PM, I'm not surprised after wanking off with Bush they don't trust us either:(

[fivestarmichael]

Sadly, the rest of the world doesn't see us like that. You should watch that video I suggested. Some people think we want to take over the world or control everything.

However, we just want to sell Coca-cola, McDonalds, computers, cellphones and entertainment. We want to have access to third world countries to put the junk together. We want people to be free to buy and build our products.

[TVParkdale]

fivestarmichael:

I'm keeping your message to watch it as soon as I get a chance.

If you haven't' seen it, watch "The Corporation" and anything by Naomi Klein or Linda McQuaid:)

The US gov't is hated mainly for it's interventionist foreign policy.

I'm glad to see South America is starting to realize it's a game they don't want to play, anymore.

[fivestarmichael]

The corporation is a good documentary. I watched it a couple of years ago. The U.S. has become a country controlled by corporations. Because we just want to drink a beer, eat Taco Bell and watch American Idol.

We want to invest our money so we can retire one day, so we invest in mutual funds. Millions of Americans investing in a wide range of corporations. Individually we own .001 percent of the company. As a collective we own 60% of the company. However we have no say in how the... cont.

[fivestarmichael]

Company is run. It can pay it's CEO $100 a year and we have no power to stop it. We contribute to the corporation but we have no oontrol over it. The corporation has no conscience, it has no feelings. It just wants to attract investors and grow. It has no moral obligation. It can piss off a million people and still make a profit. Because I have a contract with T-mobile... it can do anything it wants... as long as it provides me with service. It can bill me for things I didn't ask for.

[TVParkdale]

fivestarmichael:

Exactly. Another point is that when America/England etc were working towards a democratic process, freedom of business was about *ENTREPRENEURS* not corporations.

Entrepreneurs have to think about the future to some degree if they don't want to by lynched by their own communities. They do not live in one country while destroying another.

Their labour comes from the same community they are living in.

They don't live in some profit vaccuum.

[fivestarmichael]

If a person acted like a coporation, walking through life with no sense of accountability. we would consider that person a sociopath. 'Did I just kill ten people? Well let me write their families a check.'

An 18 year old girl earning sustinence wages working 60 hours a week putting together a pair of shoes that will sell for twice here weekly wage must think Nike is evil.

But that girl is far away from the people who buy those shoes, they never see the grief the low-prices are causing.

[TVParkdale]

fivstarmichael:

It's not about the cost of labour. That's the biggest pile of steaming horsh*t they are selling. They're after *control* and a worker union wants concessions.

Pennies goes into labour. Pennies into the resources, transport. A dollar or two goes into advertising. Another dollar goes into "labelling" techniques.

The rest is sheer, unmitigated greedy profit on behalf of the "shareholders" who are friends of the CEO.

[fivestarmichael]

Your right. No overtime laws, no insurance, no safety measures... basically they don't have to be decent to their employees at all, many live at the factory. It has been a while since I have seen the corporation... I should watch it again.

A lot of these women aren't even working to send money back to their families or for a better future. They earn near slave wages and work for years until their bodies give out. It is just plain evil.

[fivestarmichael]

And Americans are just as detached from what our government is doing. We don't see the grief it is causing. Then we wonder why people hate America. Most Americans don't know about this and they don't care... then some looney flies a passenger jet into one of our buildings.

Then we still don't care... it's a religous fanatic! Why would someone do something like this unless they are crazy? Crazy or fed up or feeling powerless against a machine that doesn't care.

[TVParkdale]

fivestarmichael:

I agree Americans are completely disenfranchised from the rest of the world. The Patriot Act is NOT democracy.

The rest of the world tries to tell US citizens that there are more methods of democracy that allow the citizens MORE say in where the tax money goes, and what the government will do.

We just get screamed at as being "commies" by people who can't even correctly define "communism" *sigh*

After a while, we just stop explaining:(

[fivestarmichael]

I've been texting with Russians on another video page. They think America is this aggressive imperialistic country that wants to take over the world. At first it sounds crazy, then I start looking at America from a Russian's perspective... it is scary.

We have the worst, most expensive healthcare system in the world and anytime someone talks about fixing it they say, "Look at Canada's fucked up socialist healthcare system." So we leave it broken.

Americans are under the illusion...cont.

[fivestarmichael]

That the two parties are different. Neither party is offering a real solution... they just want to spend more money. Neither party is doing more to help America. Which is why the elections are such a sham. Shouldn't one party be able to stand up and say, "This is what we have done for you the past 4 years?"

Instead they are arguing over who has the best idea of how to run the country in the next 4 years. If either party knew how the run the country America wouldn't be so fucked right now.

[TVParkdale]

Well vote for the one who doesn't think that dissent is treachery. That leaves you one choice. Not a good choice, but the better choice.

[hardyk1]

South Africa Aparthide started in 1948

Israeli Aparthide also started in 1948

[KhmerD0g]

there is always a jew problem

[luxcretia2]

Acre went up in flames all at once. It was a clash between poor and poor, Jews and Arabs, egged on by nationalists, with a religious holiday as the catalyst - the most dangerous of all possible clashes, which threatens to ignite a conflagration. The fire could be out by press time, but as of yesterday afternoon it seemed liable to break out anew: Young men from the housing project had agreed to meet that evening.article by gideon levy: acre jews warn: the arabs will kill you with knives

[manwiththecalicobag]

the israelis jews have no credibility at all its a documented racial cleansing of that area ,and according to there scriptures has been going on for thousands of years ,and as demonstrated by the actions of recent years is elitist, raciest, antidemocratic ,is the spirit of the anti Christ ,this jewish holocaust ,this golden calf , peace is the final solutions, truth is the way ,

[biggerflexible]

When I watch videos of Israel I feel like Im watching civil rights videos from the USA in the 1950's and 60's.

[fivestarmichael]

Bigger...It is a lot like the United States civil rights movement. Remember it was non-violent resistance that shamed people into giving blacks equal-rights. Violence begets violence.

[Warnomore50]

So you can't drive a car on their holy day but you can riot and burn houses.

[TVParkdale]

This is not going to slow down until everyone takes "God" out of it.

Separate church and state or these tensions will NOT calm down.

Look at this from the viewpoint of other countries.

A man drove down a street on a religious holiday. That caused a bunch of people to burn down houses and cars causing an evacuation?

That sounds more like an *excuse* covering previous tensions rather than a cause of conflict.

[fivestarmichael]

They hate each other. I don't blame the Palestinians for being angry, I would be angry if someone bulldozed my house. However, the Palestinians need to stop the violence and work on developing their own economy. This type of resistance did nothing for Irish. How long did that conflict last? How many people died? And the British are still in Northern Ireland. Progress was only made when the IRA and IRPA stopped armed resistance.

[TVParkdale]

fivestarmichael:

I think that's a good analogy. The British gov't also, for their own benefit, manipulated Irish politics just as the US gov't is doing.

I think the progress in Ireland was more complex than than simply laying down weaponry.

I think there was a confluence of factors including unaffordability of British intervention, global economic factors as well as pressure from other countries that Britain was being unnecessarily colonialist and exposure of the abuses of the military.

[fivestarmichael]

TVpark... I have read several books on the Irish disarmament process. It was complicated getting disparate groups to agree on a cease-fire. However, they did it. Sein Fenn was a moderate political arm of the IRA and IRPA. Whereas Hamas is a radical arm of the Palestinian movement.

Arabs are angry and they want a political movement that is going to fight for them. More bloodshed and insisting on the destruction of Israel will get them no-where. Fighting over who started it, a road to no-where

[TVParkdale]

fivestarmichael:

I agree that this situation is going nowhere fast.

Before the Irish laid down arms however, there was some understanding that *all* Irish needed to have political representation and some sense of fairness in the process.

Until Palestinians feel that their concerns can be addressed--I don't think the situation is going to improve.

[fivestarmichael]

Good observations. Which shows another similarity. The Israels don't respect Arabs as people. Just as the British Didn't respect the Irish. The British stole their land then charged the Irish to live on it. When the Irish were hit with a famine the British would only help non-catholics.

The Arab struggle could go on as long as the Irish "struggles" and that is sad. So really, the world should put more pressure on Israel to comprimise and end this.

[TVParkdale]

fivestarmichael:

Thank you.

I find political insularity, whether it is the American, Israeli or anyone else causes leaders to stop looking at the maximum amount of creative solutions.

It stalls into short-term thinking.

So I like to look at many possible solutions. Unfortunately, there seems to be pay-offs for those who wish to keep the conflicts going.

[fivestarmichael]

A lot of poeple in this forum are saying the same thing. There are those who gain something by keeping the conflicts going. I like Luxretia2's discription of events... Sounds like he/she was there.

[TVParkdale]

fivestarmicheal:

Yes, I thought it was interesting too.

I'm trying to figure out what the US gov't's percentage is in this conflict. Just keeping a friendly presence powerful in the middle east? Letting Israelis be involved instead of their own troops because it saves money?

I'm not really sure but rarely is any long-term conflict just 2 sides:(

[justinstaw]

What kind of payoffs?

[TVParkdale]

justinstaw:

That depends on the country in conflict. Can be political influence, access to resources, safety from invasion or any other number of pay-offs that can go with keeping another nation involved in civil conflict.

[TomMarAlem1987]

What are the conditions for inclusion into the Political process? Is there an oath you have to utter like "I promise to support and defend the state of Israel against all enemies foreign and domestic." If that's the case the "enemy" is the Palestinians. In that case the Arab who joins will be holding the weapon against the Palestinians.

[TVParkdale]

TomMarAlem1987:

Inclusion is a good point you have raised.

Perhaps it is time that Israel and Palestine looked over the processes for inclusion policies in other countries.

For example, in New Zealand, a certain percentage [is it 15%?] of all running candidates must be of Maori extraction.

In Canada, there is "distinct society" status.

None of those are perfect, or even desirable however, there are some bases to look at possible creative solutions.

[fivestarmichael]

What have Palestinians done to help themselves? Arab countries are happy to give them weapons. Why aren't they helping them become economically developed? Arabs don't care about their own people... why should anyone else?

[jerkinp]

A stupid ignorant American response. Arabs do give funds to help the Palestinians economically but there is no point if Israel keeps destroying economic projects from power generators to even hospitals as part of it collective punishment methods. If Arabs were giving weapons to Palestinian rebels. Israel would have long pulled out its settlement in the Westbank and East Jerusalem. Think about it. What would happen if they had the weaponry of Hezbollah? Including anti-aircraft arsenal.

[fivestarmichael]

Arab countries are good at pledging aid, not very good at delivering it. America alone helped prop-up and build the State of Israel. Arab countries promise a lot, but then deliver only substinence.

Why does Israel keep attacking Palestinians? Who is provoking them?

Hamas isn't getting all the weapons it needs to destroy Israel, but it's not from lack of trying. This is so similar to the struggles in Northern Ireland. The Irish were often hungry, but they never lacked weapons.

[mengwise36]

You are right. Let's exterminate them all. Wait, the Jews did not care about their own people enough to stand up against the Nazi. Why don't we exterminate them all?

[TVParkdale]

mengwise36:

I think your irony is being misunderstood:(

[mengwise36]

It comes with the territory.

[fivestarmichael]

Meng... the Israelis are acting the same way they are treated, that is ironic. However, this conflict is more like the "troubles" in Ireland and less like the holocaust. Years of bloodshed in Ireland solved nothing. And you know another irony? The world really didn't care much about the Irish when they were being violent. Irish-Americans were always happy to give them money for weapons. But no one was really helping them develop economically.

[mengwise36]

I think you are missing the Northern Ireland with Ireland as a whole.

Just like Colonial America trying to get out from under Britain, these "oppressed" people need weapon/military support more than economy. You can not have an economy when you are occupied, and anything of value can be taken from you.

[TVParkdale]

mengwise36:

Colonialism in America was a different story altogether for many historical reasons. The "oppressor" moved in, committed mass murder on the populace then moved it's own "settlers" onto the land--then the "settlers" rebelled with the assistance of the very populace that had been displaced with the hope of a better deal from a new gov't.

Israel is complicated in many many ways. When first established, they actually *bought* 70% of the land they occupied.

Then it branched out.

[mengwise36]

Still, if someone argue that France should have helped the 13 colonies with their economy instead of sending war ships, it would be laughable.

We are not talking about how the Europeans exterminated the Natives here nor are we talking about how the Israeli-Palestine relationship came to where it is today.

[TVParkdale]

mengwise36:

I realize that. It's an extremely complex history, as well as recent.

I don't see the Israelis as originally having particularly colonialist designs.

The middle east was in serious conflict long before Israel was born. It was, in fact being politically manipulated by *other* colonialist powers for it's resources and I sometimes wonder how much that plays into this conflict.

[mengwise36]

Don't forget that most of the other nations who immediately recognized Israel also rejected the Jewish refugees.

[TVParkdale]

mengwise:

Actually it was economic manipulation that the French used in Canada.

Are you seeing the Israelis as colonizing? Or are you seeing it as something else?

Please explain...

[mengwise36]

The return to the "promise land" is obviously more complicated than colonizing. Of course being rejected by the world complicated things further. However, if you moved into someone else's back yard and simply declared independence, there will be hard feelings.

Palestine was under British control at the time. The UN proposed two states and it was rejected by the Arabs. It was kind of underhanded on the Jews part to declare independence without an agreement with their neighbors.

[pakiman47]

rejected by the world? stop this cult of victimization!! there were jews all over the world, including many in the arab world b4 1948!

[mengwise36]

We are talking about the Jews escaping Europe. Many of the countries who supported the idea of a Jewish state in Palestine did not want the refugees.

You need to calm down.

[TVParkdale]

mengwise:

Zionism existed long before the genocide in Germany.

I agree that global guilt for not taking refugees during the holocaust as well as afterwards increased world pressure to accept the Israeli state.

What was not put into place, was a demand that Israel attempt to make accommodations and a democratic process for Palestinians who wanted to remain.

[mengwise36]

Israel can not allow the Palestinians to return because they would loose majority if all the Arabs are back. That is one of the sticking point in the negotiation, isn't it? The Arabs who fled their homes during the 1948 war either by their own free will or pressured by Jews can not return.

I do blame Zionism for much of this. Being an atheist, I see nothing good from forming a country based on religion, be it Christianity, Judaism or Muslim.

[TVParkdale]

mengwise:

I personally agree that Theocracy is never a good idea. It's polarizing.

The Arabs weren't just pressured by the Israelis to leave--they were pressured surrounding Arab countries. Fearmongering was rampant on the airwaves that Muslims would be destroyed by the Israelis. Also announced, they would be considered traitors by their Arab neighbours when the war was over.

It's just not one-sided here.

That being history, there must be *some* way to sort this out.

How, I can't fathom:(

[fivestarmichael]

If I plant trees in my neighbors yard, it doesn't make it my yard. So I get a shot gun and kill my neighbor and bulldoze his house... now it's my yard?

In America I would go to jail for a long time. In Israel I would be called a settler.

I am getting mad because my neighbor's friends and relatives have started shooting at my house. They are trying to use force to get the house back. Are they wrong? I used force to take the house.

[TVParkdale]

fivestarmichael:

Your opening statement is exactly how the USA was formed.

The only way this conflict is going to get resolved is when all sides are willing to sit down at the table and figure out what they can all live with.

Not desire, not revenge, just what they can "live with" so *everyone's* children can live in relative safety.

[fivestarmichael]

Exactly, the revenge needs to stop or this could last another hundred years.

[TVParkdale]

fivestarmichael:

*sigh* The more I look at the Mohawk's idea of how community should work [the council of [clan] grandmothers comes to mind] the more I am thinking they were right to give grannies veto power over the war council.

Maybe the middle east needs to sit all the grannies down at the table so the testosterone will stop and common sense will start:o

[mengwise36]

Actually, in America you would be called a settler too. Where did you think the Europeans got American from?

[TVParkdale]

mengwise36:

Uh, are you referring to me in the "settler" remark?

[mengwise36]

I was referring to "fivestarmichael" remark.

[fivestarmichael]

So the Israelis thought of the Palestinians as backwards heathens? I would like to argue that we have evolved a little as human beings. But as George Carlin said, "America has no problem killing brown-skin people. So whatever you do... don't be brown."

The Palestinian issue is a racial issue. It is easier to victimize people who are non-white and non-christian. So what gives the Jews the right to victimize the Palestinians?

[mengwise36]

You can argue that we evolved but the reality is we have not.

If it is a racial issue, it would be easier to solve.  Unfortunately, it is a religious issue and everyone has GOD on his/her side.

[fivestarmichael]

I am really not trying to say we have evolved. We have not evolved. We still treat brown-skin people with the same indifference. Were the crusades about God? Look at the city of Petra, now abandoned. At one time it was an intregal city in the east-west trade routes. What was in between the wealthy empires of the West and far-East? The middle-east? Yesterday it was silk today it is oil. I believe money and resources are at the heart of the conflict.

[mengwise36]

Money might be at the heart of the conflict but it is never the reason for war. For commoners, it is always religion.

[fivestarmichael]

Your right... leaders use religion to whip up the masses, it was once the opiate of the masses. Now the masses have television to numb their brains.

[mengwise36]

Religion was, is and will always be the opium of the masses. No one goes to war because TV.

[fivestarmichael]

Television is doing a pretty good job whipping the masses into fear over Russia and terrorists. The new pulpit is the newsdesk.

[mengwise36]

TV is a tool for religion, not the other way around.

[Tothose]

Well it a double edged sword . goes bothe ways.

[TVParkdale]

fivestarmichael:

Colour certainly plays a part in the conflict. It certainly plays a part for outside players [eg US] who benefit from keeping the conflict going.

It's painful to see it from both sides. One afraid of genocide and the other being indigenous.

Solutions won't happen while two sides look at "who's right and who's wrong".

Solutions are only possible when both sides look at what is *reasonable*.

[fivestarmichael]

I agree with you... good insights. Most of the world sees Israel as a U.S. puppet. I have just recently had contact with quite a few Russians on youtube.

Tvpark is Canadian, Ming is an New Zealander? Lol and I am an American. We are all looking at this conflict the same. Russians see Israel as a puppet of the United States, a sphere of influence in the region. How has our culture defined out views on this debate?

[nonoyramos]

Americans would love to see the financial aid to Israel and Palestinians be spend in their mainland than in foreign countries.

[TVParkdale]

fivestarmichael:

How has our culture defined it? I don't know really. I know that I'm tri-cultured, so to speak, so I tend to try to see how all sides can find solutions.

I don't see Israel as a "puppet" so much as utilizing supports. However, I do see the USA as having a strong interest in keeping the middle east conflict going to protect their oil interests.

As well, I realize that Israel military is a lion.

The US can't afford NOT to co-operate.

[fivestarmichael]

These lower oil prices are actually de-stablizing oil-rich countries right now. Countries like Saudi Arabia and Libya use oil money to support a massive welfare system. There is no underlying economy. There is massive non-employment. When prices fall under $100 a barrel they can't send out the welfare checks and Arab citizen start blaming the Royal family.

Arab countries are eager to see prices go up so their leaders can stay in power. They don't want stability in the region.

[TVParkdale]

fivestarmicheal:

How do you think this oil greed is affecting the inability of oil countries to not diversify the economy [creating more employment] and trying for alternative solutions that are not oil based?

[did that question even make sense?]

So, are you saying even the Arabs don't want the area stabilized because it drives up the price of oil?

[fivestarmichael]

There is no incentive for the population to diversify. I saw something on Frontline detailing the pressures of the Royal Family in Saudi Arabia. They have to maintain a massive welfare state in order to keep the population copesetic. However the population has grown so fast the oil money can't keep up. So OPEC needs a price increase.

Have you ever noticed how gas prices go up everytime someone farts on an oil well?

[fivestarmichael]

I tell my friends to stop shooting at the Israeli house, because now the Israelis are shooting at my house. Why should I suffer? I'm not doing anything wrong.

So how do I get my friends to stop shooting and how do I get the Israelis to stop shooting? Is this violence getting us anywhere?

[TVParkdale]

mengwise36:

I agree with much of what you've said.

I wouldn't say Israel was "underhanded" just desperate for a homeland. Then the British withdrew abruptly and let the region explode.

It's a complex situation and it would take a great deal of discussion, compromise and willingness to come to some equitable agreement. I'm not sure either side is prepared to negotiate in good faith, yet.

Some day maybe.

[mengwise36]

The British did not withdrew abruptly. They already decided to terminate the mandate by May 15th, 1948.  Israel declared independence on May 14th. You see why I say it is "underhanded"?

[TVParkdale]

mengwise36:

Israel was public for decades that they wanted to declare independence. Zionism was a large movement from the beginning of the century. They consistently bought land from the Palestinian land owners while using guerrilla tactics against the British.

What's underhanded about that?

If they'd been *renting/leasing* land, that might be a different situation.

Expanding from that original land, this new conflict has occurred.

[mengwise36]

The underhandedness come from the fact that they declared independent a day before the British would leave WITHOUT any international agreement. The UN proposal was rejected by the Arab nations.

Individuals can own land. However, to form a country, you can't do it because your "people" collectively own a bunch of land.

[fivestarmichael]

In some ways I agree with you. The documentary "A Death in Gaza" made me sick. I'm not against resistance. However, violence turns away world-support for their cause. I would be pissed if I was Irish or Palestinian. However, America had a thriving economy... it just needed weapons and military support.

[mengwise36]

But America developed that thriving economy without British soldiers occupying Boston, New York and Philadelphia, right?

[TVParkdale]

mengwise:

America did not develop that thriving economy without the south selling cotton to the British based on a slave labour pool as well as Northern industry selling products and resources overseas.

Realistically however, the cost of occupying a country when there are no land supply lines is exorbitant unless the resources make it worthwhile. Wars of attrition are expensive.

It's the reason the British pulled out of the Middle East and India.

[super8hogan]

sterilize the muslims and there would be no fighting....in Africa, Asia, Europe, and Middle East are all fighting grounds for the "religion of peace"

[mengwise36]

Too bad no one thought of sterilizing your daddy 32 years ago.

[TVParkdale]

mengwise36:

Couldn't have said that better myself;p

[XXXZaZaXXX1982]

get your facts right.

the jews started this!!!!

they stone the arab man first!

[KhmerD0g]

there is always a jew problem.

[aquamammal]

Fucking Zionism. Fuck religion.

XVX for life, R.A.S.H. 'til death.

[TomMarAlem1987]

It is all about the conditions to entry into the Government. What are the conditions imposed on the Arabs for entry into the Israeli Government?