I shouldn't find it so amusing since I am a Christian. I should ptiy you. However, I am human. Only the father is miraculous, not I.I wonder what you atheists will do if you are ever in a life threatening situation? I wonder who you will ask to help??? If you are about to be burned alive, or murdered, or raped, or abused? What if your child was kidnapped? Who will help you? Will you suddenly find GOD.
I shouldn't find it so amusing since I am a Christian. I should ptiy you. However, I am human. Only the father is miraculous, not I.I wonder what you atheists will do if you are ever in a life threatening situation? I wonder who you will ask to help??? If you are about to be burned alive, or murdered, or raped, or abused? What if your child was kidnapped? Who will help you? I bet you will suddenly call on the one you have denied and mocked. God be with you all...
I shouldn't find it so amusing since I am a Christian. I should ptiy you. However, I am human. Only the father is miraculous, not I.I wonder what you atheists will do if you are ever in a life threatening situation? I wonder who you will ask to help??? If you are about to be burned alive, or murdered, or raped, or abused? What if your child was kidnapped? Who will help you? I bet you will suddenly call on the one you have denied and mocked. God be with you all... I hope
I also agree fully with your video. I'm definitely an athiest and believe 'miracles' are just born out of luck. And I do agree that those who survive some great calamity seem to conveniently forget those who did NOT survive, even if they did pray. Taking a course on WW1 cemented my atheism. Sure, it might seem a miracle your son survived, say, Passchendaele, even though he's maimed beyond recognition. But the maimed may think differently: why did God let him survive so horribly disfigured?
@TooSoonTooYoung nothing to do with god, it was mans war. Inside of men proceed anger and hatred and jealousy etc....Life could be much worse if a cruel god existed, man on its own suffices.
Excellent soundtrack, I think what causes the chasm between atheist logic & Christian faith, is the value placed on 'human life' vs. eternal life. If debating within the context of human life being 'the all' then the points and logic of the video would be very compelling towards the atheistic point. But for the true Christian, this human life is but a portion of the journey. Your loss, your unfair brevity of life, the suffering all ends at the grave. and eternity is our promise of reward.
Prayers only have benefits for the person praying. Indeed, if that is the only thing that person "has" (where it is questionable what truly they "have") then this person should cling on to it. Prayers are an act of despair or self-gratification (I'll do something great for someone else), while in reality they don't do anything.
Interesting, your comment made me think about the concept of hope. What is hope really? And what does hope do for a person? I don't mean the mental state but rather as far as results are concerned. Will a dying person be happier when they die because they hoped not to? I am not trying to be sarcastic, I am really wondering....
Interesting video. I love how people who argue with you make up statistics, try desperately to refute your logic, and then say that logic is irrelevant. If god exists, he is a vain, narcissistic, capricious show-off who doesn't give a shit about humanity. For me, it was a mercy killing.
as for miracles...well i dont know but could it be because of unbelief...in the bible Jesus did not many great works in a certain town because of their unbelief...i think nazareth (his hometown) because the said no good can come from nazareth....judging from all the faith im reading on here (sarcastic pun intended) no miracles...no wonder...go figure!!!
well judging from all the atheistic comments pertaing to yokeup and the jesus set me free from homosexuality responses...i doubt very seriously if 100 % of the hypothetical soldiers prayed...more like only 1-2 percent....
I hope this video has the desired effect. It never seems to occur to faith-heads that God seems to have limited healing powers when it comes to miracles. I've never read about anyone re-growing an arm.
Btw... I enjoyed Yokeup's classic line of attack. It's the 'we love you so much! therefore god exists' argument.
By the way, were you the girl who got a rational response video banned for no reason at all? Whatever happened to that? if it was you indeed, Did you receive an answer from YT?
Yes, that was me. Nothing "happened" to that. It was removed due to unjustified copyright infringement and I did not feel like providing YT/Google w/ all my personal details/information in order to fight it.
those selfish pricks they are much more important than everyone else, thus god answered thair players. Because it is god's divine plan that he lives to be a useless scum who won't do squat about humanity and it is more important that he lives despite killing people like firemen and police officers.
you're right, you don't hear from all those that died. If they reached out to God, they are in heaven for eternity with Him... how much more of a reward is there... and those that denied God, they are in hell for eternity... but you don't hear from them either. You all have a choice and it is either God and heaven for eternity or hell... nobody wants that part, but yet they go on denying God... Trust Jesus, surrender today.
"I can only deny something that I know is true." I was told this during the whole blasphemy challenge of RRS here on YT. Well, if that is so, then I am not denying your god. You and every other christian I know clings on and depends on a fictional character and a 1,500+ yrs old book to make the right life decisions. How sad.
The truth is that even whey you get it completely wrong, we still love you and reach out to you with the awesome news of Jesus Christ. We get hammered for our views, but it's very OK, we know we are just the messengers... I appreciate your kindness, be blessed and find a way to trust Jesus.
Same here: I love you too, even though you get it completely wrong and follow a fictional character in a delusional state of mind created by ignorance & lack of education of our forefathers (the creator of the miracle fairytale in the bible).
I gladly admit to be wrong when after my death I meet *god*. But I also will loudly complain that all he had to offer was a dusty story and no evidence. (no .. looking around and/or reading the bible isn't evidence). [...]
I also admit that christians/theists chose the easier way out, because if it just so happens that after your death NOTHING happens, then there'll be no way of you to complain or even to admit that you have been misled all your life.
I know you are taken care of because Jesus loves you, but still:
I realize that faith is a choice. I was born Roman-Catholic & eventually my mind/logic wasn't able to accept the christian belief/life because I need to have more than just faith. Faith on its own stands on shaky ground if implanted into a critical mind. I am not saying this as an insult, but the christian faith doesn't leave much room for critical thinking based on reason & logic.
It is what it is and has to be accepted as such, regardless if it goes against logic. I have been unable to accept that and feel *free* for many yrs now, w/out guilt and conscious of that one life that I need to live at its fullest w/out basing my being on that (too) slim chance of the invisible blessings of an invisible being. I don't consider myself a fundamental Atheist but I'll appreciate good discussion/debates w/ Theists.
Angel13, from what you write in and between the lines, I know you want to believe in something, and yet, belief just isn't coming when requested. That's where the animosity is coming from. You're trying to erase something indelibly written on your heart.
We receive graces from cooperation with God, and that creates faith. Faith is His free gift. Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God"
quite possibly, afterall the need for meaning in the world is cloesly related with our cognitive functions. For example you might well look at a piece of marble and see a human face, or look at the sea and feel like you nearly know what it's going to do next. Unfortunatley this proves we're highly evolved not that a god/gods exsist.
He doesn't give it to everyone. I couldn't possibly have "faith" in a god that has no power to make his presence known. If he is looking down, right now, picking and choosing who lives and dies according to the efficacy of their prayers, I couldn't possibly believe in such a narcissistic entity.
Back home from a lovely month at Lourdes where I saw the real power of prayer, but I see Angel13 is back home to her favorite subject. Can anyone here see the two a priori assumptions in Angel13's "battlefield effect" model which render its conclusions invalid? Guesses anyone? Its like big, neon, flashing obvious...
Please share the experience! How many blind were healed to say? How many lame could walk again? Any walks over water lately? Water to wine? Oh pls, I'd love to hear the "power of prayer" provided through proof, facts...
1) The scenario where the general sends 10,000 "fervently praying soldiers" into battle is an invalid argument, since almighty Science can neither operationally define what "fervent prayer" is, nor can it test each soldier in real time in the heat of battle for the sincerity of their heavenly petitions . So a constructed fantasy such as this cannot prove a real world phenomenon like the positive effect of prayer.
2) The scenario also wrongly assumes the non-praying men have no voice for their views when in actual fact they have a louder voice than the praying group. Having a 10 to 1 propaganda advantage, the non-prayers have more advocates for their position. Their relatives could just as well have spoken out in books, media, among friends and family that prayers are useless. They also have the liberal media, TV, and Dawkins, Hitchens, whydoesgodhateamputees and Angel13 to advocate their views.
Due to the impossibility of verifying the existence of a homogeneous population of dead fervent praying soldiers, or their advocates, we're forced to invoke Occam's Razor, and declare the prayer side wins (hands together) Advantage: Jesus...
Occam's Razor would go like this: 95% of the U.S. population believe in a deity, so did 95% of those soldiers. The fact that only 1% survived is most probably due to the inefficacy of prayer. You "cut" away the miniscule probability that only those 100 soldiers prayed.
Regardless of who believes in what, you still have to measure frequency and fervency of prayer IN a real group ON the battlefield to prove or disprove Angel13's Battlefield hypothesis. C'mon folks, this scenario is basic Karl Popper critical rationalism-It's just scandalous that a Catholic need to remind you of the rules....
That 95% percent of another population applies to the battlefield group in question is STILL speculation. Until you operationally define prayer, develop a method of measuring it with cross-test validity, AND control the extraneous variables, you're in the same ontological boat as us bead-pinching Mary Worshippers. Quelle Horreur!
Funny you would bring up Karl Popper; because I have reason to think he would demonstrate that the "battlefield prayers" hypothesis is testable and falsifiable, yet demographically plausible. Could you elaborate, jolenecassa?
Popper wwould be the first to point out the impossiblity of operationally defining prayer or measuring devoutness in real time. You can't falsify this battlefeild hypothesis that "praying soldiers" died in battle. Even if soldiers are drawn from a "praying population, still, correlation does not imply causation. There's no science and no proper argument here.
Good one, "measuring devoutness in real time". Would prayer fail this way? You can pray all your life, but if a bullet tears your guts apart and you can't think of being devout that very moment, you won't survive? If you have <i>that</i> description of prayer, jolenecassa, I'd go with your grasp of Popper. Alas: There are studies about efficacy of prayer using the dictionary definition, all with the expected results; except one: Cha/Wirth/Lobo. Guess what? They cheated; one's in prison.
Oops, update: "Dr. Rogerio Lobo from Columbia University in New York, took the unusual step of removing his name from the paper! [...] Wirth was arrested and released on bail pending his trial. Yet, the Journal of Reproductive Medicine still refused to take action. On May 17, 2004 Wirth pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit mail and bank fraud. On Nov. 23, 2004 Daniel Wirth was sentenced to five years in federal prison." (ohmynews 2006-01-23)
I would suggest a basic brush up on the foundations of the scientific method. Your missing the point here and not getting the concepts of proof, methodology, hypothesis. A half-credit in research methodology is all that's needed to instantaneously reject the spurious design of the Battlefield Hypothesis.
I admit that it's hard (yet possible) to collect hard evidence for this kind of hypothesis if you admit that demographic profiling can lead to valid assertions about groups of people if applied sensibly. Whereas your arguments above are baseless ("almighty science"; "real world phenomenon...positive effect of prayer"; nonpraying group having a louder voice than praying group; liberal media), the share of praying/dead soldiers can be estimated.
There is no scientific method to PROVE the battlefield hypothes, OR that every soldier that prayed lived, and every soldier that didn't pray died. Experiment can offer lines of evidence that "support" a hypothesis, it can even disprove a hypothesis IF it is falsifiable, but we can never, definitively prove a hypothesis when the object of study involves social phenomena. Science doesn't offer much in the way of existential certainty.
As hypotheses go, I find this one more compelling: ONLY the resurrection as a historical fact could account for transforming the apostles from a little band of defeated cowards hiding in an upper room one day, into a company that no persecution could silence. Science can't really help us here either as there are no historical parallels. Only by grace can one understand it.
Great vid, and great point about the supposed power of prayer. The power of testimony relies on people's natural inability to understand ordinary probability.
Das man so etwas überhaupt erklären muss, ist schon Beweis genug für die Dummheit und Ignoranz der Gläubigen. Aber wir Atheisten sind ohnehin um einige Prozent intelligenter als sie (das sage ich ohne einen Anflug von Arroganz).
Nicht nur intelligenter, sondern auch staerker. Religion ist die Ruestung des aengstlichen Menschens. Ich amuesiere mich immer ueber Christen die so tun, als waeren Atheisten die Feiglinge. Es bedarf eine gehoerige Portion innere Staerke aller Religion den Ruecken zu kehren... nicht in deren Schatten zu existieren.
I'm sorry, but if you pray that you, personally, survive at the expense of others, paticularly if your oun life was spared because the gas chambers were over-crouded, you're a selfish asshole/bitch who deserved death. If anything, the fact that you survived DISPROVES the existance of a just deity who answeres prayers.
Well, over all us humans are very selfish & arrogant. And many times we are at the expenses of others.. the exceptions are TRUE exceptions and rare to find.
I agree with your points, but just a couple things to note: you neglected to note the women who are fighting. and not that I agree with them, but the xians would say that soldiers deaths need not mean prayers are unanswered because it is his (of course, god is a male) will and we don't always understand why he does what he does
Quickly everybody started praising god for this miracle .. it was all over the media. THEN sadly it was discovered that all men had already died. And wouldn't you believe how fast the *miracle* turned from that to "where did the engineers fail? what caused the accident? what did man do wrong?"
Odd.. huh? Nobody said "Praise the lord for killing those men, it was his will."....................
Great video Angel. These personal 'miracle' stories make me sick. I know the people who tell them and claim them as evidence of answered prayers don't realise that by doing so they are indirectly insulting the memory and loved ones of the other 99% who aren't so lucky. If they stopped being so narcissistic and thought about it, they would realise how disgusting it is.
I shouldn't find it so amusing since I am a Christian. I should ptiy you. However, I am human. Only the father is miraculous, not I.I wonder what you atheists will do if you are ever in a life threatening situation? I wonder who you will ask to help??? If you are about to be burned alive, or murdered, or raped, or abused? What if your child was kidnapped? Who will help you? Will you suddenly find GOD.
thetruthgirl11 9 months ago
I shouldn't find it so amusing since I am a Christian. I should ptiy you. However, I am human. Only the father is miraculous, not I.I wonder what you atheists will do if you are ever in a life threatening situation? I wonder who you will ask to help??? If you are about to be burned alive, or murdered, or raped, or abused? What if your child was kidnapped? Who will help you? I bet you will suddenly call on the one you have denied and mocked. God be with you all...
thetruthgirl11 9 months ago
I shouldn't find it so amusing since I am a Christian. I should ptiy you. However, I am human. Only the father is miraculous, not I.I wonder what you atheists will do if you are ever in a life threatening situation? I wonder who you will ask to help??? If you are about to be burned alive, or murdered, or raped, or abused? What if your child was kidnapped? Who will help you? I bet you will suddenly call on the one you have denied and mocked. God be with you all... I hope
thetruthgirl11 9 months ago
I also agree fully with your video. I'm definitely an athiest and believe 'miracles' are just born out of luck. And I do agree that those who survive some great calamity seem to conveniently forget those who did NOT survive, even if they did pray. Taking a course on WW1 cemented my atheism. Sure, it might seem a miracle your son survived, say, Passchendaele, even though he's maimed beyond recognition. But the maimed may think differently: why did God let him survive so horribly disfigured?
TooSoonTooYoung 2 years ago
@TooSoonTooYoung nothing to do with god, it was mans war. Inside of men proceed anger and hatred and jealousy etc....Life could be much worse if a cruel god existed, man on its own suffices.
smokeybirdman 2 years ago
the "battlefield effect" seems like some twisted type of evolution, survival of the (apparently) fittest idea. hmm...
Elvisdogg 3 years ago
Man merkt wirklich das du aus GDR kommst, so ein Titel war wohl noch niemals zuvor einem Amerikaner bekannt.. Ostrock united ;)
Joallesklar82 3 years ago
"Randomness scares people. Religion is a way to explain randomness."
..........Fran Lebowitz
KasparHauser4 3 years ago
Excellent soundtrack, I think what causes the chasm between atheist logic & Christian faith, is the value placed on 'human life' vs. eternal life. If debating within the context of human life being 'the all' then the points and logic of the video would be very compelling towards the atheistic point. But for the true Christian, this human life is but a portion of the journey. Your loss, your unfair brevity of life, the suffering all ends at the grave. and eternity is our promise of reward.
MrVisions 3 years ago
excellent vid, points well argued. but what if a prayer is all someone has? wouldn't this rational pov leave them bereft? thanks. john.
gandersourcefilms 4 years ago
Prayers only have benefits for the person praying. Indeed, if that is the only thing that person "has" (where it is questionable what truly they "have") then this person should cling on to it. Prayers are an act of despair or self-gratification (I'll do something great for someone else), while in reality they don't do anything.
Take care,
~Angel XIII~
anangel13 4 years ago
giving people hope or even false hope isn't not doing anything.
gandersourcefilms 4 years ago
Interesting, your comment made me think about the concept of hope. What is hope really? And what does hope do for a person? I don't mean the mental state but rather as far as results are concerned. Will a dying person be happier when they die because they hoped not to? I am not trying to be sarcastic, I am really wondering....
Take care,
~Angel XIII~
anangel13 4 years ago
a mental state can change the world because in a very real sense that what our world is.
gandersourcefilms 4 years ago
after studying the holocaust at school.. most of the soldiers prayers were answered because they prayed to die!
heatherbombshellx3 4 years ago 2
Interesting video. I love how people who argue with you make up statistics, try desperately to refute your logic, and then say that logic is irrelevant. If god exists, he is a vain, narcissistic, capricious show-off who doesn't give a shit about humanity. For me, it was a mercy killing.
FantasticBabblings 4 years ago
as for miracles...well i dont know but could it be because of unbelief...in the bible Jesus did not many great works in a certain town because of their unbelief...i think nazareth (his hometown) because the said no good can come from nazareth....judging from all the faith im reading on here (sarcastic pun intended) no miracles...no wonder...go figure!!!
donnaskf 4 years ago
well judging from all the atheistic comments pertaing to yokeup and the jesus set me free from homosexuality responses...i doubt very seriously if 100 % of the hypothetical soldiers prayed...more like only 1-2 percent....
donnaskf 4 years ago
This video was of great interest to me. Thanks!
Tiwaking 4 years ago
Yes, they walk through the valley of the shadow of death and forget to ask the real question: Why all of the death??
handygeek 4 years ago
I hope this video has the desired effect. It never seems to occur to faith-heads that God seems to have limited healing powers when it comes to miracles. I've never read about anyone re-growing an arm.
Btw... I enjoyed Yokeup's classic line of attack. It's the 'we love you so much! therefore god exists' argument.
mattshute07 4 years ago
"Oh ye of little faith..."
randy95023 4 years ago
Correction: "Oh ye of NO faith..." NOT in invisible god/s, that's for sure.
~Angel XIII~
anangel13 4 years ago
By the way, were you the girl who got a rational response video banned for no reason at all? Whatever happened to that? if it was you indeed, Did you receive an answer from YT?
Patriot128256 4 years ago
Yes, that was me. Nothing "happened" to that. It was removed due to unjustified copyright infringement and I did not feel like providing YT/Google w/ all my personal details/information in order to fight it.
~Angel XIII~
anangel13 4 years ago
those selfish pricks they are much more important than everyone else, thus god answered thair players. Because it is god's divine plan that he lives to be a useless scum who won't do squat about humanity and it is more important that he lives despite killing people like firemen and police officers.
Patriot128256 4 years ago
Random occurences that bring about positive results are called miracles.
Brainmold 4 years ago
you're right, you don't hear from all those that died. If they reached out to God, they are in heaven for eternity with Him... how much more of a reward is there... and those that denied God, they are in hell for eternity... but you don't hear from them either. You all have a choice and it is either God and heaven for eternity or hell... nobody wants that part, but yet they go on denying God... Trust Jesus, surrender today.
Yokeup 4 years ago
"I can only deny something that I know is true." I was told this during the whole blasphemy challenge of RRS here on YT. Well, if that is so, then I am not denying your god. You and every other christian I know clings on and depends on a fictional character and a 1,500+ yrs old book to make the right life decisions. How sad.
Take care.
~Angel XIII~
anangel13 4 years ago
The truth is that even whey you get it completely wrong, we still love you and reach out to you with the awesome news of Jesus Christ. We get hammered for our views, but it's very OK, we know we are just the messengers... I appreciate your kindness, be blessed and find a way to trust Jesus.
Yokeup 4 years ago
Same here: I love you too, even though you get it completely wrong and follow a fictional character in a delusional state of mind created by ignorance & lack of education of our forefathers (the creator of the miracle fairytale in the bible).
I gladly admit to be wrong when after my death I meet *god*. But I also will loudly complain that all he had to offer was a dusty story and no evidence. (no .. looking around and/or reading the bible isn't evidence). [...]
anangel13 4 years ago
I also admit that christians/theists chose the easier way out, because if it just so happens that after your death NOTHING happens, then there'll be no way of you to complain or even to admit that you have been misled all your life.
I know you are taken care of because Jesus loves you, but still:
Take care
~Angel XIII~
anangel13 4 years ago
It's all about Faith, not proof for me... I appreciate you.
jeff
Yokeup 4 years ago
I realize that faith is a choice. I was born Roman-Catholic & eventually my mind/logic wasn't able to accept the christian belief/life because I need to have more than just faith. Faith on its own stands on shaky ground if implanted into a critical mind. I am not saying this as an insult, but the christian faith doesn't leave much room for critical thinking based on reason & logic.
anangel13 4 years ago
It is what it is and has to be accepted as such, regardless if it goes against logic. I have been unable to accept that and feel *free* for many yrs now, w/out guilt and conscious of that one life that I need to live at its fullest w/out basing my being on that (too) slim chance of the invisible blessings of an invisible being. I don't consider myself a fundamental Atheist but I'll appreciate good discussion/debates w/ Theists.
~Angel XIII~
anangel13 4 years ago
It's always a shame to hear about someone who is ruined for Christ, by man's interpretation... that's not what it's all about...
Yokeup 4 years ago
Angel13, from what you write in and between the lines, I know you want to believe in something, and yet, belief just isn't coming when requested. That's where the animosity is coming from. You're trying to erase something indelibly written on your heart.
We receive graces from cooperation with God, and that creates faith. Faith is His free gift. Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God"
jolenecassa 4 years ago
quite possibly, afterall the need for meaning in the world is cloesly related with our cognitive functions. For example you might well look at a piece of marble and see a human face, or look at the sea and feel like you nearly know what it's going to do next. Unfortunatley this proves we're highly evolved not that a god/gods exsist.
Billy7766 4 years ago
He doesn't give it to everyone. I couldn't possibly have "faith" in a god that has no power to make his presence known. If he is looking down, right now, picking and choosing who lives and dies according to the efficacy of their prayers, I couldn't possibly believe in such a narcissistic entity.
jokernalyd 4 years ago
Ditto.
~Angel XIII~
anangel13 4 years ago
"I know you want to believe in something, and yet, belief just isn't coming when requested."
That is funny. I'm glad you know. If it makes you feel better to "know" that, more power to you.
~Angel XIII~
anangel13 4 years ago
I'm a recovered Catholic myself, so I can relate to your challenge... but for me, Jesus worked....big time..
Yokeup 4 years ago
PS: I just love the whole heaven and hell story. :o) Burn in hell vs. sitting on a happy fluffy cloud. That's lovely.
anangel13 4 years ago
well, you just said tangent stuff, you didn't disprove the validity of her arguments. Just said random things unfocused and evading.
Patriot128256 4 years ago
Back home from a lovely month at Lourdes where I saw the real power of prayer, but I see Angel13 is back home to her favorite subject. Can anyone here see the two a priori assumptions in Angel13's "battlefield effect" model which render its conclusions invalid? Guesses anyone? Its like big, neon, flashing obvious...
jolenecassa 4 years ago
Welcome back.
Please share the experience! How many blind were healed to say? How many lame could walk again? Any walks over water lately? Water to wine? Oh pls, I'd love to hear the "power of prayer" provided through proof, facts...
~Angel XIII~
anangel13 4 years ago
*see
anangel13 4 years ago
back to my favorite subject? Hahahahha..
I guess so are you. jolenecassa's favorite subject = anangel13
I am flattered....
~Angel XIII~
anangel13 4 years ago
On to the battlefield.
1) The scenario where the general sends 10,000 "fervently praying soldiers" into battle is an invalid argument, since almighty Science can neither operationally define what "fervent prayer" is, nor can it test each soldier in real time in the heat of battle for the sincerity of their heavenly petitions . So a constructed fantasy such as this cannot prove a real world phenomenon like the positive effect of prayer.
jolenecassa 4 years ago
2) The scenario also wrongly assumes the non-praying men have no voice for their views when in actual fact they have a louder voice than the praying group. Having a 10 to 1 propaganda advantage, the non-prayers have more advocates for their position. Their relatives could just as well have spoken out in books, media, among friends and family that prayers are useless. They also have the liberal media, TV, and Dawkins, Hitchens, whydoesgodhateamputees and Angel13 to advocate their views.
jolenecassa 4 years ago
Due to the impossibility of verifying the existence of a homogeneous population of dead fervent praying soldiers, or their advocates, we're forced to invoke Occam's Razor, and declare the prayer side wins (hands together) Advantage: Jesus...
jolenecassa 4 years ago
Occam's Razor would go like this: 95% of the U.S. population believe in a deity, so did 95% of those soldiers. The fact that only 1% survived is most probably due to the inefficacy of prayer. You "cut" away the miniscule probability that only those 100 soldiers prayed.
leporidus 4 years ago
Regardless of who believes in what, you still have to measure frequency and fervency of prayer IN a real group ON the battlefield to prove or disprove Angel13's Battlefield hypothesis. C'mon folks, this scenario is basic Karl Popper critical rationalism-It's just scandalous that a Catholic need to remind you of the rules....
jolenecassa 4 years ago
That 95% percent of another population applies to the battlefield group in question is STILL speculation. Until you operationally define prayer, develop a method of measuring it with cross-test validity, AND control the extraneous variables, you're in the same ontological boat as us bead-pinching Mary Worshippers. Quelle Horreur!
jolenecassa 4 years ago
Funny you would bring up Karl Popper; because I have reason to think he would demonstrate that the "battlefield prayers" hypothesis is testable and falsifiable, yet demographically plausible. Could you elaborate, jolenecassa?
leporidus 4 years ago
Popper wwould be the first to point out the impossiblity of operationally defining prayer or measuring devoutness in real time. You can't falsify this battlefeild hypothesis that "praying soldiers" died in battle. Even if soldiers are drawn from a "praying population, still, correlation does not imply causation. There's no science and no proper argument here.
jolenecassa 4 years ago
Good one, "measuring devoutness in real time". Would prayer fail this way? You can pray all your life, but if a bullet tears your guts apart and you can't think of being devout that very moment, you won't survive? If you have <i>that</i> description of prayer, jolenecassa, I'd go with your grasp of Popper. Alas: There are studies about efficacy of prayer using the dictionary definition, all with the expected results; except one: Cha/Wirth/Lobo. Guess what? They cheated; one's in prison.
leporidus 4 years ago
Oops, update: "Dr. Rogerio Lobo from Columbia University in New York, took the unusual step of removing his name from the paper! [...] Wirth was arrested and released on bail pending his trial. Yet, the Journal of Reproductive Medicine still refused to take action. On May 17, 2004 Wirth pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit mail and bank fraud. On Nov. 23, 2004 Daniel Wirth was sentenced to five years in federal prison." (ohmynews 2006-01-23)
leporidus 4 years ago
I would suggest a basic brush up on the foundations of the scientific method. Your missing the point here and not getting the concepts of proof, methodology, hypothesis. A half-credit in research methodology is all that's needed to instantaneously reject the spurious design of the Battlefield Hypothesis.
jolenecassa 4 years ago
I admit that it's hard (yet possible) to collect hard evidence for this kind of hypothesis if you admit that demographic profiling can lead to valid assertions about groups of people if applied sensibly. Whereas your arguments above are baseless ("almighty science"; "real world phenomenon...positive effect of prayer"; nonpraying group having a louder voice than praying group; liberal media), the share of praying/dead soldiers can be estimated.
leporidus 4 years ago
There is no scientific method to PROVE the battlefield hypothes, OR that every soldier that prayed lived, and every soldier that didn't pray died. Experiment can offer lines of evidence that "support" a hypothesis, it can even disprove a hypothesis IF it is falsifiable, but we can never, definitively prove a hypothesis when the object of study involves social phenomena. Science doesn't offer much in the way of existential certainty.
jolenecassa 4 years ago
Agreed, that's Popper the way I recognize him. Though Angel's video wasn't really about "proving" the hypothesis 100% for "every" soldier, was it?
leporidus 4 years ago
As hypotheses go, I find this one more compelling: ONLY the resurrection as a historical fact could account for transforming the apostles from a little band of defeated cowards hiding in an upper room one day, into a company that no persecution could silence. Science can't really help us here either as there are no historical parallels. Only by grace can one understand it.
jolenecassa 4 years ago
That is empty rhetoric, jolenecassa.
leporidus 4 years ago
Good video. Keep 'em coming!
aajoeyjo 4 years ago
Great vid, and great point about the supposed power of prayer. The power of testimony relies on people's natural inability to understand ordinary probability.
websnarf 4 years ago
Well done...5 stars and fav'd!!!!
bubbaj30 4 years ago
"Dead men tell no tales."
...but every grave is an indictment of any alleged god.
proudfootz 4 years ago
Gutes Video, Engelchen. :-)
Das man so etwas überhaupt erklären muss, ist schon Beweis genug für die Dummheit und Ignoranz der Gläubigen. Aber wir Atheisten sind ohnehin um einige Prozent intelligenter als sie (das sage ich ohne einen Anflug von Arroganz).
Samexpm 4 years ago
Ahhh.. gute deutsche Stimme! :o)
Nicht nur intelligenter, sondern auch staerker. Religion ist die Ruestung des aengstlichen Menschens. Ich amuesiere mich immer ueber Christen die so tun, als waeren Atheisten die Feiglinge. Es bedarf eine gehoerige Portion innere Staerke aller Religion den Ruecken zu kehren... nicht in deren Schatten zu existieren.
Danke!
~Angel XIII~
anangel13 4 years ago
I'm sorry, but if you pray that you, personally, survive at the expense of others, paticularly if your oun life was spared because the gas chambers were over-crouded, you're a selfish asshole/bitch who deserved death. If anything, the fact that you survived DISPROVES the existance of a just deity who answeres prayers.
dechha1981 4 years ago
:o) True!
Well, over all us humans are very selfish & arrogant. And many times we are at the expenses of others.. the exceptions are TRUE exceptions and rare to find.
~Angel XIII~
anangel13 4 years ago
I agree with your points, but just a couple things to note: you neglected to note the women who are fighting. and not that I agree with them, but the xians would say that soldiers deaths need not mean prayers are unanswered because it is his (of course, god is a male) will and we don't always understand why he does what he does
nomoxian 4 years ago
Yes, that is true. I failed to mention *women* in regards to *soldiers* but in my mind, I was thinking both genders.
And of course... all is god's will! Great things are because of god's blessings, horrible things are because of man's failure.
Prime example comes to mind: there was a mine accident a while back when ppl thought that the men down there were still alive [...]
anangel13 4 years ago
Quickly everybody started praising god for this miracle .. it was all over the media. THEN sadly it was discovered that all men had already died. And wouldn't you believe how fast the *miracle* turned from that to "where did the engineers fail? what caused the accident? what did man do wrong?"
Odd.. huh? Nobody said "Praise the lord for killing those men, it was his will."....................
~Angel XIII~
anangel13 4 years ago
That was very powerful,
very thought provoking.
/applaud/
great video!
Meloco2007 4 years ago
Great video Angel. These personal 'miracle' stories make me sick. I know the people who tell them and claim them as evidence of answered prayers don't realise that by doing so they are indirectly insulting the memory and loved ones of the other 99% who aren't so lucky. If they stopped being so narcissistic and thought about it, they would realise how disgusting it is.
cantaloupe42 4 years ago
Awesome stuff. Looking at both sides of the coin sorta takes the mystery and wonder out of those sorts of testimonials...that's for sure.
AtheistInTheHat 4 years ago
Thanks !!!! :o)
~Angel XIII~
anangel13 4 years ago
A perfect video Angel! The Battlefield effect clearly demonstrates a 99.99998% failure rate for prayers...
Katalyzt
Katalyzt 4 years ago
Thank you {{{blush}}}.
Probability/luck added w/ wishful thinking = *miracle*.
"What fools those mortals be..." :o)
~Angel XIII~
anangel13 4 years ago
Indeed ;o)
Katalyzt 4 years ago
Where oh where have I heard that......
Ghostwriter6967 4 years ago
WOW!!! That was very powerful. To bad most will dismiss it as your non belief. This was an excellant vid.
Ghostwriter6967 4 years ago
Thanks.
All it takes is common sense. Belief or no belief: if you allow common sense anyone *should* see the logic.
But you are most likely correct.
BTW: Highly recommandable website: whywontgodhealamputees(dot)com
~Angel XIII~
anangel13 4 years ago
Gotta love common sense and logic. Great video!
Brianj1234 4 years ago