Chiropractic Adjustments Causing Vertebral Artery Dissection

[leadoptimize]

Why do some chiros get so defensive about this? Car makers don't get defensive about saying, "certain driving techniques cause accidents."  It's simply a true statement. The industry isn't going to tumble down just because another truth comes out.

[tkt2ryd09]

I had a chiropratic stroke last summer at 36 yo. There is a direct link. The naysayers disgust me. There have been many deaths. I feel fortunate to have only lost 6 months of my life, my house and my job. "chiropractic47" is a f'n IDIOT!! Get a real job and a real life you quack.

[Baums77]

@tkt2ryd09 says the person hiding behind a computer screen

[Blackmark52]

You are too forgiving of chiropractic47's comments.

IMO, to proclaim "CHIROPRACTIC first!!!; medicine last !!!" is an admission that chiropractic is not medicine. Those who cannot bear scrutiny without lashing out have no respect for evidentiary based medicine. And to even suggest that you should take down your video smacks of censorship and the strong arm tactics chiropractic uses to claim its legitimacy.

BTW: Chiropractic has been found responsible for death in Canadian court.

[chiropractic47]

@Blackmark52 Chiropractic is definitely not medicine. Why would the best (DC=5200 classroom hrs vs 4600 hrs= MD) align itsself with medicine; the number one cause of death in North America (745,000 Americans died by medicines hands last year). DC's pay only $1500/yr malpractice whilst MD's pay an average of $75.000/year. Insurance is about risk and claims made.

[Blackmark52]

@chiropractic47 You are correct. Chiropractic is definitely not medicine. Medicine is defined as the art and science of healing. Chiropractic is a belief system. Priests devote much time to their practice, but prayer still can't be scientifically verified to work. And of course, priests don't get sued for failed prayer either.

[NYNCsue]

full name please. are you afraid??? I'm not

[NYNCsue]

full name please. are you afraid???

[NYNCsue]

ferguson and what is your full name?

[NYNCsue]

what is your name?

[JaguarSTR]

@NYNCsue John.

[NYNCsue]

@JaguarSTR last name please

[JaguarSTR]

@NYNCsue Sue, what is your last name?

[JaguarSTR]

I'm compelled to put my two cents in here: Me and my family use chiropractic care as our primary care vehicle. It's extremely safe and effective; unlike medicine.

[NYNCsue]

@JaguarSTR really? I'm sad for you. I hope no one in your family has a stroke

[JaguarSTR]

@NYNCsue My aunt died from a prescription medication induced stroke. Be sad for my aunt. The cause of her death is where you should expend your energy.

[chiropractic47]

@JaguarSTR Wow man. Sorry to hear about your aunt. Many prescription drugs cause strokes. The ironic thing is: hundreds of thousands of Americans die each year from medications and their loved ones are told they died from natural causes.

[NYNCsue]

@chiropractic47 and here we go again...scripts and procedures carry warning labels and have consent forms. Really chiros, why don't you tell any of your "customers" what might happen? you may lose money?

what is your real name?

[chiropractic47]

@NYNCsue "...scripts and...carry warning labels? LOL! Susan? Susan? Really?! Is someone ghost writing your posts? Please, stop this foolishness.

[NYNCsue]

@chiropractic47 name please, if you believe in whatt you stand for, or course..

[chiropractic47]

@NYNCsue Susan, It's late, you have school tomorrow, you stayed up late last night, you're not going to stay up late again! Now get to bed! Night!

[NYNCsue]

@chiropractic47 you stand for nothing. what is your real name

[NYNCsue]

@NYNCsue just like I thought, ..a bunch of cowards with no real names that stand for nothing.

[JaguarSTR]

@NYNCsue LOL! Sue? You talking to yourself again? Like chiro47 said...go to bed!

[transtlantic]

@JaguarSTR

sockpuppet... bugger off.

[JaguarSTR]

@transtlantic Ahhh! LOL!

[JaguarSTR]

@transtlantic Ahhh! LOL! It's "Trans-Gender"!

[transtlantic]

@chiropractic47

"trans-gender"? lol... i guess that what you are implying is that tolerance and ethics is something that you've never learned. you probably are a christian fundamentalist who doesn't have an education.

my arguments are quite solid, the fact that you spend post over post insulting people instead of actually presenting evidence says all about your "assumptious-ignorance-based-p­ractice"

sucks to be you

[JaguarSTR]

@transtlantic Why would I waste my "good' words on a little prick such as yourself? If you had come to this forum addressing appropriately you would have recieved notation. You came with knives held behind your back so deserve no love. So suck it!

[transtlantic]

@JaguarSTR

"good words"? you have none of that.

You have nothing to present. You are an ignorant person. if you had anything to show as an argument you would present them.

As it stands, it's obvious you are a sockpuppet. or a complete idiot.

[JaguarSTR]

@transtlantic You sound just like Dwight (Ben Stiller's character) from "Dodge Ball" LOL! "I know who I am. I'm the boss of me..." LOL! Like chiro47 suggests..."You aint worth a "Good Word".

[transtlantic]

@JaguarSTR

and yet you give a lot of atention.

seriously... what do you have to say For Chiroquackery? it is relaxing? sure. it's massage therapy. just stay away from the spine, or you'll get sued.

you sound just like an ignoramus, you know that main character from Zoolander? (that Ben Stellier's character)

you are as dumb as that one.

now bugger off.

[chiropractic47]

@transtlantic chiro47 said suck it...so suck it!

[transtlantic]

@chiropractic47

I said: you have no arguments. And i am obviously right.

Plus... you are obviously wrong.

bugger off, idiot.

[chiropractic47]

@transtlantic Wah, wah, wah... Chiropractic is great!

[transtlantic]

@chiropractic47

great for what? massage time? sure.

[NYNCsue]

@transtlantic i'am your #1 fan. don't bother arguing with these people. they are cowards and hide behind screen names. do you have fb? Send me an inbox if possible . Sue

[chiropractic47]

@NYNCsue transgender would be your #1 fanny to push in his stool.

[chiropractic47]

@NYNCsue don't worry sista, I Keep em away from meds and give em chiro care. I'd do the same if I were you.

[colljonathan]

i don't know if this is 'strong evidence' but as a practicing radiologist i have personally diagnosed 3 dissections in individuals who had a chiropractic adjustment within 24 hrs. that's a fact. high velocity neck manipulation is a dangerous practice in my opinion and i would never endorse it for a loved one or anyone for that matter.

[JohnnyChiro]

@colljonathan Did you see these dissections on a radiograph? Also where were they located and what was the health Hx of the patients involved. HVLA adjustments "MAY" be dangerous in idividuals with previous Hx of dissection, vascular dz or family Hx of either. The HVLA adjustment is not dangerous to those who are not at high risk for dissection to begin with. While I can appreciate your concern, the health of these 3 patients you Dx should also be posted.

[chiropractic47]

@JohnnyChiro Three dissections within 24 hrs? Yea right? Sounds like an extremely busy chiropractic community this "suppossed" radiologist tends to? Wrote this guy off as a medi-pharma rep.

[chiropractic47]

@colljonathan Chiropractic has numerous cervical adjusting techniques. We encourage those that are low force. I use activator and atlas orhtogonal. These are by far the safest cervial adjusting techniques. Check corresponding YouTube vids for these chiro. techniques. If you are a radiologist (I use three very frequently), I highly doubt you viewed three dissections within 24 hours. This frequency would be tantamount to representing an extremely busy chiropractic community. Very doubtful sir.

[lerxt46]

do not trust these quacks....19th century quackery in lab coats

[chiropractic47]

@lerxt46 What did you do? Just come out of the bathroom to post whilst man gue on your hands? Go back to what you where just doing cause it's what you do best. Sorry folks, this guy (lerxt46) is a sick kid.

[cddccddc1]

"15-20% of VAD are PROBABLY caused by chiro adjustments" and "there is PROBABLY some link there that the public should be made aware of"

Oh, brother. 15-20%?! Evidence please!

I'm 43 years old and never ONCE heard of a friend or even a friend of a friend that was hurt by a chiro. I've never even seen a news story about someone being injured by a chiro (although I am sure SOMEBODY has). But I HAVE heard of thousands who have been injured by medicine or medical doctors.

What a joke.

[9pt9]

THERE IS ZERO LINK BETWEEN CHIROPRACTIC ADJUSTMENTS AND STROKE. PROVEN FACT.

Spine magazine: FEB 2008, vol 33

THIS IS MEDICAL PROPAGANDA.

[cddccddc1]

I don't know WHO'S propaganda this is, nor do I really care. I just know chiropractic has helped me a lot.

There are times when I was down from low back pain and my medical doctor couldn't do a dang thing. He gave me some drugs. We tried physical therapy, and finally, I went to a chiropractor. The chiro was the ONLY one who helped. It pisses me off that my MD never even recommended a chiro.

I'm sure there are quacks in every group, but I love my chiro. He got me back to work- the MD didn't.

[chiropractic47]

@cddccddc1 Way to go! Chiropractic is great!

[chiropractic47]

@9pt9 Amen. Chiropractic is very safe and effective. We only pay $1500/year malpractice insurance/year. We all know insurance is determined by RISK and CLAIMS MADE. MD's pay anywhere between $50,000 to $300,000/year med malpractice insurance. Go Chiropractic!

[transtlantic]

@chiropractic47

your insurance argument is also a pile of BS. insurance companies already take into account the fact that chriquackers have a disclaimer at their doors and they can't perform certain manipulations.

the quantity of insurance to pay is also proportional to the responsability of the practitioner. the fact that MDs have such insurance to pay per year just goes to show how big is the requirement for excellence in US medical practice.

chiroquackery is basically...massage therapy

[JaguarSTR]

@transtlantic Ahh, my old friend "trans-gender"! It's warming to see that you came out of the gender reassignment surgery in one piece (instead of having two), LOL!

[chiropractic47]

@JaguarSTR Your a card man! I like the way you ass whipped "trans-gender" and his gal pal Sue.

[chiropractic47]

@transtlantic LOL! "trans-gender"! ...nope....my posts holds more water than what you force up your butt. LOL!

[jersey1969krw]

i would like know if this "strong evidence" includes physical therapists and/or osteopathes since both of these health care professions perform cervical manipulation. actually some of these physical therapists/osteopathes learn manipulation from instructors who happen to be chiropractors. i personally find it interesting that chiropractors are being singled out when the number of physical therapists performing cervical manipulation is on the rise.

[chiropractic47]

I have been a chiropractic doctor for 20 years and help 550 pv/week. Never once did I cause a stroke. This video is complete bull shit in trying to brainwash anyone who misfortunately stumbles upon this piece of shit. Please move on to anothe video that has good intentions. CHIROPRACTIC first!!!; medicine last !!!

[leadoptimize]

@chiropractic47 I agree that chiropractors have helped many people and I appreciate caution chiropractors like yourself who are obviously careful about neck manipulations. Thank you for being a leader in your industry.

[chiropractic47]

@leadoptimize The medial industry conducted a major study two years ago exonerating (dismissing) chiropractic from: "occassional" and "frequent". In fact, the medical study found that the incidence of vertebral artery dissection following a cervical spinal adjustment was so remote that they had to guess it at 1 in 20,000,000 adjustments (chiropractic guesses 1 in 50,000,000). The study further concluded that the incidence of stroke was the same following a visit to a DC vs an MD office.

[NYNCsue]

thanks for posting this video!

You are brave for putting yourself out here and trying to gather us all up! we are here for you!

[chiropractic47]

@NYNCsue Thanks for your support of chiropractic Sue.

[NYNCsue]

@chiropractic47 funny quack, you're not getting any support from me. You post all this nonsense from your soapbox in a cornfield . If you believe in what you do for a living, why don't you tell us all what your real name is? bet you won't

[JaguarSTR]

@NYNCsue I feel sorry for you that you an emotionally ill woman. Chiropractic has helped emotionally ill people worldwide. Along with psychotherapy and a healthful organic diet, you can beat this. I'll pray for you. Namaste.

[NYNCsue]

@JaguarSTR you.are.small.

[chiropractic47]

@NYNCsue Awe Sue...how can you say that about my good pal JaguarSTR? Just because he or she set you straight is no reason to git yer panties in a bundle and all? Jaguar is just doing the right thing...defending good and necessary chiropractic from fear mongers such as yourself.

[NYNCsue]

@chiropractic47  Name?

[chiropractic47]

@JaguarSTR You showed utmost respect to a foe of chiropractic. You are honorable. Thank you for setting Susan straight. Now if you could set "trans-gender" straight...that would be a real miracle. LOL!

[NYNCsue]

@chiropractic47 blah blah..if you really live your life the chiro way, what is your real name? no one set me straight, my spine is fine. Name?

[chiropractic47]

@NYNCsue Your spine aint fine Susy. Oh!, you prefer to take the allopathic route..."if it ain't broke don't fix it" (no symptoms-no problemo)? susy, git to a chiro, git an x-ray, and git adjusted. It'll make ya better and healthier person. Chiro fo you girlfriend!

[NYNCsue]

@chiropractic47 name? why won't you tell us all your real name? take a stand for your magical healing powers. Name?

[chiropractic47]

@NYNCsue Anytime I step into my office and give chiropractic the "...magical healing powers" of the body are expressed. Thank you for your help Susan in putting this post together. I bet you believe MD's heal? For sure, the body has no hand in its own recovery. I mean it is ludicrous to assume living things possess no such healing powers. When you cut your finger it heals because an MD put a bandage on it. Right?

[NYNCsue]

@chiropractic47 blah blah..name?

[chiropractic47]

@NYNCsue It's late Susan. Let's call it a night...we can pick up on it tomorrow, ok? Get some rest...you look tired.

[chiropractic47]

@NYNCsue You have a "funny quack"? You're not going to support your "funny quack"? Sue, you lost your glue.

[9pt9]

@chiropractic47 Research has found NO link between chiropractic and strokes/VAD.

SPINE 2/2008 vol 33

In 12 years of practice in a busy clinic I have never had one case of stroke or been sued for any adverse reaction to my care. The fact is these people are unknowingly having pre-stroke symptoms that cause them to seek chiropractic care.

[chiropractic47]

@9pt9 Thank you for the Journal and study exonerating (removing) chiropractic from the hands of those who wish to harm good and much necessary...chiropractic. Keep giving the people chiropracTIC...chiropracTOR. ADIO!

[transtlantic]

@chiropractic47

lol... you are full of bs. 550 patients a week? lol... what...around 15 patients an hour? AHAHAH hilarious.

Chiroquackery is a pile of amateur bs. If anyone requires good medical atention for recovery of muscle-skeleton disorders that person should seek a physiotherapist.

chiroquackery is a pile of bs. i don't care if there's one or two who know what they are doing. as long as it is filled with pseudo-science and unregulated creditation, it's a danger to everyone.

Not

[JaguarSTR]

@transtlantic Sorry folks; gender reassignment surgery has rendered "trans-gender" a tourette he-she.

[chiropractic47]

@JaguarSTR LOL! "trans-gender"!

[NYNCsue]

@JaguarSTR You are all cowards. Can't say your real name...would rather bash people and hide behind a screen name. you stand for nothing

[chiropractic47]

@NYNCsue Bed time!

[NYNCsue]

@chiropractic47 just like i figured. coward.

you. are.small.

[JaguarSTR]

@NYNCsue Chiro47 said go to bed already!

[NYNCsue]

@JaguarSTR you stand for nothing unless you post your real names...names?

[JaguarSTR]

@NYNCsue So my name is John....so now what?

[NYNCsue]

@JaguarSTR John, what is your last name?

[transtlantic]

@9pt9

the study you mention is a pile of crap.

"It certainly does not invalidate all the previous evidence. It says nothing about the patients who have collapsed on the table when being treated for symptoms not related to the head or neck. It says nothing about the relative benefits of neck manipulation compared to gentle mobilization and other treatments."

the fact that the study you mention does not focus on these points virtually invalidates it.

you are an idiot.

[JaguarSTR]

@transtlantic Can't take the truth that chiropractic will whip (ooh, you probably love that) your medical ass? LOL!

[chiropractic47]

@JaguarSTR "trans-gender"? LOL! I like that one. Keep kicking his medi-phrma ass bro.

[Seldona]

@chiropractic47

"A chiropractic doctor?" Your not equating yourself with an actual medical doctor, are you? "CHIROPRACTIC first!!!; medicine last !!" is not only misleading, it is likely criminal.

You may have a doctorate degree, but you sure as hell are no 'doctor.'

I can't even rate you in the 'quack' class, because even the worst among quacks have an actual MD. Chiropractic doctor? What a joke.

Do you have a degree in crystal healing as well? Or work with people's 'auras?'

LOL

[chiropractic47]

@Seldona That's correct "Sell Donna", chiropractic is the best and safest ($1500/year malpractice insurance) of the primary health care professions. We are primary care doctors under the Medicare Act and all 50 states. Your jelousy of chiropractic is understandable. I had four MD's in my chiropractic class. They shared this with us and are now Chiropractic Doctors (DC). it's never too late to become a DC. Come join us!

[yunn1981]

Strong evidence? its a rare for a start and not fully understood, and its not well researched. how can there be strong evidence? there is strong anecdotal evidence but that might just be finger pointing. If there is an associated risk I would love to know being a DC. but it seems this is being used as a political weapon to damage chiropractic.

[docsrocks]

@yunn1981 I wouldn't even say strong anecdotal evidence. There is some, but 'strong' is an overstatement. And that's exactly it. There are many idiots out there that think we would still adjust using the same method if there where any actual 'smoking gun' because we don't have to carry malpractice insurance and just plain don't care. Of course that's complete and total BS. They also don't seem to realize we have about 100 techniques available to us.

[whatupessay]

excellent vid thanx for sharing

[chiropractic47]

It's a sucky video!!! Poor job!!!

[JohnnyChiro]

There are many other parameters and information that should be included but this should get you started on the right path. If you truly want good answers then do good research before posting your findings as fact. In the end you will know your research was done better and your results are better.

You really should take down this video until you acquire legitimate test results though, its not fair to chiropractors or people who may be influenced by your bogus results.

[JohnnyChiro]

I would suggest having all of your "subjects" get each of their medical records sent to you. Then you can go through each of them, check each of their actual diagnoses from each of their doctors and truly see if the doctor attributed their VBA to a chiropractic cervical adjustment. Also check their history of any prior medical conditions or surgeries, family history of vascular abnormalities, history of any other types of trauma, or lifestyle risks: smoking,birth control,alcohol,stress..etc.

[mcmjr405]

@JohnnyChiro I checked out his website, and had only 3 cases studies, of which one was a patient who had seen a chiropractor. Reading further, the stats on the patient revealed that the patient had a "persistent bitemporal headache for four weeks" also smoked 20 cigarettes daily.

[chiropractic47]

@mcmjr405 The vids poster is likely trying to become a martyr as a means to fend off loneliness? Chiropractic is very safe and effective. Go Chiropractic!

[JohnnyChiro]

It's not just about the possibility of a weirdo sending you mass e-mails. It's more about the study itself. You're discussing scientific matters and publically posting your bogus results as fact. I'm all for a good study and if good results come out and prove your theory to be true then so be it. However, until you hold a clinically significant trial where you can see these patients charts and truly see what their legitimate diagnoses were then anything you post is indeed not valid.

[leadoptimize]

Johnny,

Thanks for the feedback. The VAD site is obviously not my full time job so the info often gets pieced together - often without the time to go back and clean up, or update, the previous info (such as the old 15% versus the new 50% figure).

Your email theory is worth considering. There COULD BE some kook out there sending me chiro-related emails using fake names from multiple emails.

Thanks

[chiropractic47]

@leadoptimize Don't you feel it's time to remove your video from circulation? The jury went out and it returned with a verdict of "Not Guilty", chiropractic cervical adjustments are extremely safe and it's very rare for an accident to occur. We do appreciate your concern for public safety, however chiropractic cervical adjustments are innocent. Why don't you go after MD's who kill 800,000+ Americans each year from misdiagnosis, prescription drug reactions, etc. Chiropractic killed no one.

[leadoptimize]

@chiropractic47 I know chiropractors have helped many people and I know the incidence of VAD's is very small. I don't know much about the many ways MD's kills people each but I do get letters from people saying they were on the chiro table when the chiro caused their VAD. Read the personal stories on the website and forum.

[chiropractic47]

@leadoptimize People always look for "Scape goats". When someone produces a solution to their confusion, they'll jump on it. We understand cervical adjustments have harmed some, but not anything near a frequency claimed by this forum. Ya want something to chew on? Then read "Death by Medicine" Gary Null, PhD, et al. Here he and medical professionals (MD's, DO's, RN's) collaborate. The stunning and frightening medical maiming and death statistics in one year of medicine: 800k deaths.

[JohnnyChiro]

Next, how many of these patients have you met in person to acquire valid information? I'm not saying that the info you have isn't legitimate but before someone posts results "chiro manipulation is the leading cause of VBA (your own words)" shouldn't you be sure you have accurate data. I mean anyone can send an e-mail. I myself have numerous e-mail addresses. Point being if I send you an e-mail from more than one account wouldn't your data be.....inaccurate?

[JohnnyChiro]

I want to address your study parameters a little bit regarding your 40 patients that have e-mailed you and spoke about their incidents. In your own typed words "Input: 20 of 40 say "neck manipulation by my 'chiropractor' caused my VAD" The remaining 20 are various causes. Conclusion: chiro manipulation is the leading SINGLE cause."

Not sure where you got the 10-15% number in your video but 20 of 40 would be 50 %. If you could clear up those numbers I would grealy appreciate it.

[JohnnyChiro]

Couple of key points about your video and the e-mails on your site (very interesting btw)

First, I'm very sorry that you suffered a VBA. I'm sure it was a very frightening experience to go through and I'm happy to see that you are doing well after the fact.

I'm not here to tell you to stop verbalizing or posting your opinions about chiropractic and I also understand that you are simply trying to gain knowledge about the possible causes of VBA and to get others to post there experiences.

[drmyers879]

You state that there is "strong evidence that chiropractic adjustments cause vertebral artery dissections" in this video's title, yet you say in the video that you are getting information from e-mails. Is that your "strong" evidence - from e-mails? You are more likely to get a VAD from visiting your hair stylist than from a chiropractor, yet, I don't see you trying to defame them. How about medical doctors and physical therapists who adjust and call it a "chiropractic adjustment"?

[leadoptimize]

I have heard of VAD's caused by hairstylists but have never actually heard FROM anyone whose VAD was caused by a trip to the barber. I would like to see the research backing your statement.

Please tell me where I am "defaming" anyone and I will gladly remove that statement. The video even says, "I am not saying chiropractors are bad..."

To be clear, chiropractors provide a good service for many people. I simply want to clarify the link between chiropractic neck manipulations and VAD.

[drmyers879]

This is where you are defaming chiropractic: "There is strong evidence that chiropractic adjustments cause vertebral artery dissections." It is in the description of this video. I don't know if it was you or someone else who posted it, but if say you will "gladly remove that statement", then go ahead.

[docsrocks]

Yes. And there is actually a substantial amount of research that has already been done that doesn't show any link stronger than coincidence. If there was a true, 'smoking gun' tenchnique, or even relationship, it would be showing up by now. Fact is, there just isn't. The rate of stroke for going to an MD for a 'visit' is the same as going to a DC. MD's generally never manipulate the spine, nor even do much in the way of NMS exams.

[drmyers879]

1:1.5-2 million chance of complication (not death) following cervical spine manipulation

1:1000 chance of serious GI event following NSAIDs

1:200 chance of DEATH following cervical spine surgery

1:65 chance of neurologic complication following cervical spine surgery

Published in "Spine" and "Annals of Internal Medicine"

[leadoptimize]

Those are interesting numbers - really - but saying that other events cause harm is not an argument.

You are also comparing a "natural" treatment to the use of drugs and surgery.

I/we are completely open to arguments and I am happy to keep your comments posted here.

Thank you for contributing.

[drmyers879]

I know what you are trying to prove - the association between chiropractic adjustments and VAD, I just wanted people to realize the safety of chiropractic versus conventional medicine, showing that chiropractic is MUCH safer. In respect to chiropractic causing stroke, I would refer you to an article in my next comment.

[drmyers879]

SPINE Volume 33, Number 4S, pp S176S183.

In this study, they found a "connection" between chiro adjusting and VBA, but they also found that same "connection" between visiting a primary care physician (PCP) and VBA. Symptoms of a VBA are headache, light headedness, vertigo, etc. People with these symptoms will go to their doctors (DC, MD, DO, ND, etc.). This study revealed no statistical significant difference between visiting an MD and visiting a DC with the occurence of a VBA.

[drmyers879]

People who visited their PCP (MD) were likely never even touched by that doctor, yet they ended up with a stroke. The fact is, if a person is having a stroke or about to have a stroke, they will likely visit a doctor. Chiropractors are trained to be astute and screen for risky patients, and a properly trained DC from a CCE accredited college will know how to perform the adjustment safely.

To be fair, be careful of "weekend warriors" (MD's, PT's, friends) who take one course and adjust.

[bluepearl2001]

My point about the malpractice insurance issue is that the cost of coverage is based on the perceived risk of the treatments provided. That's why a pediatrician or neurosurgeon pays a HUGE annual malpractice fee while a family practicioner pays much less. Then when we see that DC's pay so little, it has nothing to do with "Cheap" insurance and everything to do with the relative SAFETY of Chiropractic medicine even if we acknowledge that all forms of medicine have some risk.

[leadoptimize]

The key word is "perceived." Thank you for your comment. If you have any research to apply to the matter, please let us know how you can help.

[bluepearl2001]

If manipulation by LICENSED Doctors of Chiropractic was so dangerous, why is our malpractice insurance SO LOW? I guess the Insurance Companies just like Chiropractors? NOT! If they could charge more based on medical risk, we would be paying as much as MD's and DO's. Think about it. My malpractice insurance costs less than $2,000/year. I guess I'm not so risky after all. Maybe you should consider this line of inquiry before you get all whipped up about risky Chiropractic medicine.

[leadoptimize]

"All whipped up"  Can someone please watch the video and tell where in the video I get "all whipped up about risky chiropractic medicine"?

If you read the responses from chiropractors below you can tell that they obviously did not pay attention to the video.

Your logic about cheap malpractice insurance = safe is weak (if it has any substance at all).

I stand by the comments made in the video - now more than ever.

[Bronstone]

Spine. 2008 Feb 15;33(4 Suppl):S176-83.

Spine. 2008 Feb 15;33(4 Suppl):S170-5.

Review the evidence, do a comparitive analysis with other common treatment methods for neck pain (i.e. NSAIDs) and let's have an intelligent, factual discussion.

[monicachadha143]

we are not massage therapists with SOME medical education. if you look at our curriculum in any chiropractic college, you will see that chiropractors actually take more anatomy, physiology, pathology, diagnosis, technique, biology, etc. courses than any medical doctor in the profession. the only course we do not take is pharmacology..because we are NATURAL HEALERS..hence the name CHIROPRACTIC...chiro = hand. we heal with the ability of our bodies. an adjustment is to 're-wire' the nervous system

[leadoptimize]

I said I believe chiropractors are often SEEN as massage therapists with more education. You make some pretty bold statements insinuating chiropractors are more educated that doctors on many topics.

Either way, I appreciate that you take responsibility for the fact that you CAN cause damage to your patients and hope you will encourage other chiropractors to be so responsible as well.

[monicachadha143]

As a Chiropractic student...i think that ignorance is the key to much misunderstanding in today's medical world. Many VAD's are already present in ones' body without the adjustment. Some people are just made prone to the situation, just like osteoporosis in young male/females, or cancer...there are things we just cannot personally control. As a chiropractor we are taught to rule out many of these risks and take high precautionary steps.

[leadoptimize]

I had a VAD when I was 27 - NOT caused by a chiro, by the way. There was very little information about it so I started the site to help others with the condition. I invite people to share their experiences and helpful information and it seems fairly clear that chiro adjustments are the leading single cause of vertebral artery dissections. They are very rare but devastating to those who get them.

[yunn1981]

how do you provide clarity on chiropractic being the leading cause? based on what? where is your facts? concrete facts not heresay!!!!!!!!!!!!! and how does it help people who have had a VAD, all you are doing is trying to smear the chiropractic profession!!!! and again you are using the title chiropractor, include anyone using manipulative or adjustive techniques cause we are not the only ones using them. we are however (chiropractors) more schooled in using manipulative or adjustive techniques

[leadoptimize]

Input: 20 of 40 say "neck manipulation by my 'chiropractor' caused my VAD" The remaining 20 are various causes. Conclusion: chiro manipulation is the leading SINGLE cause.

Chiropractors often give two arguments against the statement that chiro neck manipulation causes VAD's. 1. It's rare. (so what) 2. Other various practitioners do harm, too. (so what).

I only want to create awareness - not "smearing" anyone. More educated should equal more responsible, too.

[yunn1981]

my previous post should have read - without concrete proof. its clear to you?

and what do you do? chiro? MD?

how are yu so passionate about this?

how do you intend to prove a link?

[yunn1981]

defensive coz there are so many people viciously attacking my profession with concrete proof. in the uk osteopaths practice similar techniques as do a number of physios. so why is it that chiros cop the flack for this alleged link to vbai's? we are all separately governed. In order for you to increase awareness of potential of vbai's you need first to prove the potential for vbai's following manipulation. how do you propose to do this?

[leadoptimize]

I am not sure how direct of a link you need between a person seeing a chiropractor and leaving with a VAD to believe there is a connection between the two but it is pretty clear to me. Correlation is NOT causation but after enough instances, some connection becomes pretty clear.

Please be clear that I am not attacking chiros. I want more of them to be aware and responsible about the potential for causing a VAD.

[leadoptimize]

I had a VAD...more posted above.

[yunn1981]

get a medical degree, do some research and dont rely on anecdotal evidence as it is a weak indicator of positive correlation. oh and attack the manipulating physios and osteopaths as well if you persue this not just chiropractors!

[leadoptimize]

As I clearly say, "I am trying to put together the link between..." and I am looking for more information.

Watch the video again. If any of the numerous people mention physios or osteopaths instead of chiropractors I would look into those.

I have nothing against chiropractors. My goal is to increase awareness of the potential for VADs.

You are pretty quick to jump on the defensive. I am trying to do more research and I want to find the real truth. Help or stay out of it.

[salvadoraceves]

chiropractic-care seems to work towards releasing pressure excerted on specific points. and since spinal adjustments seem to be the more common, one might corelate the practice with damage to the vertebral artery. we must also consider prevalent damage that could have developed over time from lack of needed treatment; if you give a level 4 cancer patient too many rads of radiation therapy, chances are the radiation will kill the patient b/c the body is too attinuated to survive.

[leadoptimize]

I agree with you partially. The problem is that the fact that prevalent damage is a possibility means that the chiropractors should be MORE careful. It does not mean they cannot be held responsible for the final damage.

[salvadoraceves]

you do bring up a good point, but a bigger issue is that chiro is under-observed by entities like the a.m.a., and because of it the understanding of not only its true dangers but also its true benefits, are limited and in need of more attention. by accusing chiro of malpractice, it stimulates negative attention from both sides, and can regress a health-care practice that could possess socially-needed potential.

[leadoptimize]

That is a big issue for chiropractors. I see this as an opportunity for chiropractors to say, "yes, here is a real problem and we show that we are real doctors (not just back/neck crackers) by doing our due-diligence in finding the source of your pain or discomfort before we begin manipulation." I believe chiropractors are NOT seen as diagnosticians or doctors but as massage therapists with some medical education.