Irreverance Larrikinism and Australian Values

[kwicksandz]

thats a mug you DONT want to chug!

[SalehUddin1986]

How do you define someone's 'nation'? As far as I know all the people in the skit have embraced their 'aussieness'.

It is funny, many people say that, I rarely see it though. I see contempt for others, but little contempt for self. I ask again, can someone mock or disrespect the flag or ANZAC day? There was and is an international movement to have such things be punishable by gaol time.

[SalehUddin1986]

I have grown up here, my family has been here for generations, and I am yet to see any hallmark examples of self-depreciation in Australia's cultural heritage, be it movies or literature. Though I am happy to be corrected.

Then that is your position, however it does not really relate to my point.

[SalehUddin1986]

The Castle and the Dish do not mock Australian culture, they revel in it! How is that humour self-deprecating? The Chaser is a recent, left wing show, who's main purpose was often political commentary. This is not a tradition of self-deprecating humour, especially when you compare it to most of the targets of our 'larrikinism' in the public sphere. Look at the movies that people see as defining us, like Gallipoli, there is certainly not much of it there!

[SalehUddin1986]

When you say 'take the piss out of yourself humour' do you mean to imply that the Castle presented a negative view of Australian culture, because that is not how most people see it. Many high school students study it & that is not what they are taught.

Oh don't take that as my argument, Australians are about as racist as many other people, my objection is to the idea that we are not, that we take the piss out of everyone equally. This is not the case. We attack others then claim 'irreverence'

[SalehUddin1986]

I refer to the popular conception of that movie. If it were a condemnation of Australian values, it would hardly have achieved such success.

I don't believe in irreverence, I think that as much as possible one should respect others. I don't particularly like the flag for example, it has the Union Jack on it (British) and the Southern Cross (on many other flags, including Brazil's), however I don't mock it.

[SalehUddin1986]

Haha... I like the symbolism of the Indigenous flag to be honest. I am unsure though, what would you like to see? I think it should be something agreed upon by the nation, I don't think the Southern Cross deserves its status amongst many Australians as something 'Australian'.. then again if thats how they feel, what can you do? We did fight under the Union Jack at Gallipoli, rather than the Australian Flag.

[SalehUddin1986]

I respectfully disagree, just because it also symbolises the place of New Zealand, Brazil, Argentina, South Africa and indeed all of the Southern Hemisphere.

I think the Indigenous flag is important in that id does represent one part of Australian society, so I don't think it would be appropriate for everyone else to adopt it. Otherwise there are many other things far more Australian than the Southern Cross, and far more unique.

[SalehUddin1986]

@saganfan44 That does not however constitute something uniquely Australian.. which is why I think it is odd. That is the thing, what is 'traditionally Australian-esque'? I find that these national narratives are defined really only by their exclusivity. What is 'Australian' is what is white, male and Christian.

You know why? Because I come from an Irish Catholic/Scandanavian family?

[SalehUddin1986]

@saganfan44 What am I? And who says I am anti-everything Australian. I am Australian, am I anti-myself?

[SalehUddin1986]

Admit that I am wrong about what?

[SalehUddin1986]

What do you see as my chosen path? And what makes it in our discussion makes it wrong?

[SalehUddin1986]

What defines me as either of those things? I am Western and I am Australian, they are aspects of my identity. To be critical of either does not make me against them in entirely. I was more critical before I was Muslim and I was never called anti-West or anti-Australian.

Is there something wrong with critique? Are either Australia or the 'West' above criticism?

[SalehUddin1986]

@saganfan44 You confuse me, so what then am I wrong about? Also what makes me un-Australian then? Or anti-Western?

[SalehUddin1986]

I want you to make clear what it is you mean, so we don't have to work under a veil of assumptions about each others arguments.

[SalehUddin1986]

It is not I who are being evasive. I am asking you a straight question. Answer it and we can move on to discuss it.

[Splinta13]

lol BRO!CUT TO DA CHASE n stop da fukn wannabe scholar like bak n fourth chattin wit dis BITCHMADE ARSEtralian,u kno wat dis clown means,he's sendin u subliminals on wat he feels is right n dat ur wrong "coz ur not really an "ARSEtralian", u do not meet da norms n how dare u criticize us ANGLO-ARSEtralians wit ur bullshit well worded speech on ARSEtralian irreverence n uncouth larrikinism" IS WAT HE REALLY MEANS DONT GET IT TWISTED!LIKE HE SAID HIMSELF U KNO N HE KNOwS WAT HE REALLY MEANS! LMAO

[proteanview]

Selective irreverence. Seems like even the most irreverent have a sensitive spot. In this case, because that sensitivity stems from defense of Australian culture, It does sound a lot like cultural chauvinism.

[SalehUddin1986]

@proteanview

Many thanks for your comment, I am happy you agree.

[TheStig000]

If you expect Australians to make fun of Australia, I think that's a big of a stretch. However, I'm sure you can find plenty of non-Australians that would laugh at Australian mockery.

[Ultraslainmonkey]

I say that mocking the Australian image is perfectly fine in the name of humour. Hell I even enjoy a good joke at my half Russian heritage though the Russian stereotypes tend to be more fun (Soviet jokes are quite fun I must admit).

[SalehUddin1986]

I am not necessarily confining this to 'mocking', the skit in question wasn't really that funny, rather I am referring more broadly to things that others find offensive. Blackface, for many people is probably worse than flag burning in what it invokes.

[Ultraslainmonkey]

Oh the skit was utter crap no question but I don't think there was any intent to be racist. Given the nationalities of the people evolved (one of which having black skin) and the fact that because Minstrels never had a history in Australia most people seem to not know about it or understand the ramifications of it. Part of this perceived racism I think is part od cultural divide and yes there is race issues in Australia but it's ultimately a globle issue and here is no different.

[kwicksandz]

I think using symbols like the flag or anzac day are bad examples but i agree that not all things are equally as acceptable to make light of. That is true of any culture larikinism or not.

The overly politically correct way harry reacted to the skit is no doubt due to his countrys values just as how a danish judge whos culture taught him about Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet might find nothing objectionable.

Maybe its my larikinism but i find that people who decry makeup as racist need to chill

[SalehUddin1986]

Do you think that Australia does not have a history of racism towards Black people? Do you think the sketch, despite being outside of the American context had no racial undertones, considering that they made a reference during it to Kamahl?

People use 'politically correct' as two words to dismiss those who are genuinely offended by racism or sexism. Considering our experience in High School of 'ethnic minority bashing day' do you really think this country doesn't have a problem with racism?

[ReddKlay]

There was no ethnic minority bashing day at my school. Stop talking shit.

[SalehUddin1986]

I was referring to Kwicksandz, whom I know personally.

[Obrien2512]

To answer your question (I am an Australian) I am not so sure. I know we make fun of a lot of things including other Australians especially those who watch good news week, the chasers and other programs mainly on the ABC. I haven't seen any other country mock the flag or their soldiers though I think that is the same in many other countries. Obama got into trouble in the election campaign fro not weaing a flag pin. Those who criticsed the Iraq war were told they weren't patriotic. So I dunno.

[SalehUddin1986]

The other factor is that this mockery does not discriminate based upon power difference. The 'jokes' made in the name of a 'larrakin culture' often target the disadvantaged in society, minorities and women. There is little humour mocking the homoerotic nature of 'mateship', be it between speedo'd life-savers or sweating soldiers.

The same words used jokingly to mock me in person are screamed across the street as racial abuse, is it that easy to distinguish between the two?

[artsab0tage]

Wow, what a sexy man! :O

[sckma]

You should have ended with "My name is Willverine, and I endorse the following flame-war that will ensue"

[SalehUddin1986]

Haha, I should change my name from 'SalehUddin' to 'WILLVERINE!'

Yes with the exclamation mark.

[sckma]

hahah yes, it is that much more..... emphatic.