Hearing is Believing - The Ultimate Small Mixing & Mastering Room

[MRHDOTCOM1]

Many swear by the ARC system. Do you think It's good in combination with good acoustical treatment?

[EthanWiner]

@MRHDOTCOM1 I some cases room EQ can help a little, in conjunction with bass traps and other treatment, but it's not a substitute for treatment as many believe.

[graphite412]

I've seen the graphs on the frequency response of the room, before and after the treatment was applied. It seemed as if you had about 10 dB of swing from the dips to the peaks in the low end. Would you say that this is what should be expected? Also how about the decay times for the modal ringing? What is their ideal length? I know having a larger room would help out, but I'm wondering what sort of swing and decay would be tolerable for a mastering environment.

[EthanWiner]

@graphite412 A 10 dB span is about as good as possible in a small room like this. Yes, with even more bass traps it could be improved. But compared to Before it's a night and day difference. Practical consideration limit what's possible. This is why we played recorded music Before and After, so people can judge for themselves. Brian Lucey at Magic Garden Mastering has this same system of absorbers and diffusers, and he mastered The Black Keys "Brothers" which won 3 Grammys.

[graphite412]

@EthanWiner Awesome! So it is possible to do mastering in a smaller room if there is the right sound trapping and diffusion coupled with the right equipment? What room dimensions in cubit foot would you say is the smallest space that could be tolerable or accurate, after treatment, with the right dimension ratios, for a mastering situation? 1,000 cu ft? 3,400 cu ft? 8,000 cu ft? Maybe these aren't even the right questions... Thanks for the answers so far though!

[EthanWiner]

@graphite412 Yes, with enough treatment you can do real work in a small room. But the smaller the room, the more treatment you need. Your questions are the right ones, but the answers are more elusive. It's a matter of how good you want versus how much you can invest. 1,000 cubic feet is pushing it, but 2,000 is definitely in range for great results given enough treatment. The room in this video is about 1,500 cubic feet, and Brian Lucey's room I mentioned is only 2,065 cubic feet.

[graphite412]

@EthanWiner That is awesome to hear.  Was Brian Lucey's room only treated with traps and diffusiors and the type of treatment used in the video? Was there something similar to krk's ergo or software correction also set up to get a little better reduction of the peaks of room modes? Have you used any of these type of products? I know they do a couple different things like time domain correction, which I haven't really studied yet. Do you have any comments on these type of systems?

[EthanWiner]

@graphite412 Brian's room has no EQ in the monitor chain as far as I know. There are two articles on the RealTraps site about the futility of trying to solve room acoustics problems with EQ or other such products.

[TheFunkmeisterD]

Okay, that really made a difference. Appeared to snap things into focus and got rid of the hall like sound. All that might look a bit strange in my living room though lol

[Parkinson9999]

That guy could be a radio presenter (I wouldn't be surprised if he is), he's got a great voice. It's the first thing that I noticed, even though the subject of the video is totally different.

[hickerydickerydoe]

Hi, What software did you use to generate all of the graphs shown in the video? Thanks heaps :)

[EthanWiner]

@hickerydickerydoe That's Room EQ Wizard, and it's freeware.

[hickerydickerydoe]

@EthanWiner Oh wow! Freeware? That's awesome. I thought I was going to have to spend 100 or so dollars. Thank you so much!

[StillLearning1000]

Very impressive demo. It clearly shows the improvements. I know less than nothing about any of this, but I have some reservations about the monitors used. They don't sound like anything I've heard before. Very clear, but very unnatural. Is this typical of studio monitors?

[EthanWiner]

@StillLearning1000 I don't think you can judge the naturalness of monitors by listening to a recording made in a room through a Zoom H2 portable recorder. The point is to hear the relative reduction in room tone after installing diffusers and bass traps. Regardless, those are Mackie HR824 pro monitors.

[StillLearning1000]

@EthanWiner The relative reduction was clearly apparent. The only reason I asked was because people that I've spoken to say they use monitors in their studio because they can hear things better, but that they would not use the monitors for home stereo. It's contra-intuitive to me. Anyway, thanks.

This video is a good demo!

[EthanWiner]

@StillLearning1000 If you think about it, the goals when listening to music for fun and for work are the same: Flat response and low distortion. So I disagree that different types of speakers are needed or useful. If you're ever in my neighborhood, you're welcome to visit and listen.

[oatstao]

can you order these without the logo branded on each one? it's distracting

[EthanWiner]

@oatstao Sure, we can build them that way.

[dmandavidbeverly]

If that was a subtle change in sound, I wonder what you consider dramatic.. :)

[ionraygun]

Good video, shows that you really can tame the acoustics in a smaller room.

[electroneticTV]

you completly killed the room sound?

[EthanWiner]

@electroneticTV Did you watch the video? This acoustic treatment completely cleaned up the excess ambience and ringing in the room, and made the sound neutral. Which is what you want in a listening room.

[oatstao]

@electroneticTV you have to pay attention to the key words in the title. When you MIX and MASTER you want to have neutrality. This is not a room to RECORD music in. That is where you want character and ambience, special reflections ect for certain Recording applications. 

[MrRafaelblock]

Awesome! I can clearly hear all the differences even on my laptop with tiny speakers....

[usedmanateesalesman]

Very impressive video. I think it would be interesting for RealTraps to come up with a few different pricing configurations and make similar videos. The A/B on this is stunning even over YT compression.

But, really, if $12k is the high point, how about incrementally improving packages starting at $2k and going up in $2k chunks. Or a comparison (With the graphs and A/B) of how much effect $12k of treatment has versus the most optimized $2k treatment using the same brand. no doubt different.

[EthanWiner]

@usedmanateesalesman We have many different products starting at a much lower price point. This video is meant to show what's possible in a "money is no object" setting. These days many professional mixing engineers are using small rooms. So for someone who has $40k worth of audio gear, and needs their room to be as accurate as possible, this is the solution. In fact, recent reviews in Pro Sound News and Pro Audio Review profiled Magic Garden Mastering, our customer who has this modular system.

[SyncronikMusic]

Amazing video! very very useful! Tnx a lot :)

[kusgilb]

Great video Ethan. More than just a subtle difference.

I sort of like some aspects of the sound of the untreated room, now all you need to do is develop a wet/dry lever for the room. ;-)

[genemz5]

What speakers are those? It looks like two woofers in each box. Is that a time aligned tweeter mounted in a cavity that appears to be a woofer?

[EthanWiner]

@genemz5 Those are Mackie HR824s, the original models, not the newer MK II type.

[xxdanger06xx]

The diffusers do accomplish what they are made to accomplish, which is to make the recorded sound appear as if it were recorded in a larger room than it was originally recorded in!

[alexmcginness]

Ethan, thanks for all of your hard work on educating people. If I ever win the lottery, Ill be doing my room just like the one in this video.

[hardstyle905]

Could you tell me the name of the song that starts at 7:51, that kind of western or Honky Tonk music.

[EthanWiner]

@hardstyle905 That's Steve's Boogie by Eric Johnson.

[deliciousjammusic]

@hardstyle905 Steve's Boogie by Eric Johnson. They also play Trademark by Eric Johnson at 6:38

[michalczar7]

what is the name of the 4th sample song , its looks like some kind of trance music, what is the title?

[EthanWiner]

@michalczar7 That music is from a "music library CD" called Tension Realm, written by my friend Ed Dzubak. Google can find you Ed's web site. I also noticed a used copy for sale on Amazon.

[simodean4]

How do i treat a room measuring 8x8 Feet?. i tried so hard and still not getting any result.

[kuehling83]

@simodean4 Use it to store your cases

[MusicallyG]

It is possible to get quality stuff for prices that won't break the bank.. informing video

[Meteotrance]

it's totaly true you can have the better mic of the world and have shit acoustic room, i love using the zoom h2 in my car, the acoustic treatment is more good than my room ^^ !!!

[fullmetalchemist34]

so the budget for treatment is $12,000 and they use Zoom H2 in this video, which costs around $130. That's funny:)

[hardstyle905]

@fullmetalchemist34 why, it sounds great

[AlexanderCollection]

Sounds good, but for $12000 it better had!! Considering this is a small bedroom sized room too. Don't think many bedroom producers will budget for this. Wonder how much a decent sized studio would cost??

Think i'll continue building my own until I strike my first deal then ill be in touch (+:

Great work though!!



[EthanWiner]

@AlexanderCollection People on a tight budget will always look for inexpensive ways to treat their room, and that's fine. It's the same with any other audio purchase, such as microphones and preamps and converters. Do you want good or do you want cheap?

[AlexanderCollection]

@EthanWiner

Hey Ethan. Don't get me wrong I think its fantastic. I just wish I could afford it. My only option is to make do at the moment.

[Neocron]

@EthanWiner

Well, i want a mid price solution, say around 3000 Dollars. Imho more is just not realistic, considering the average home studio.

[PSYTRACKED]

How much for all the treatment in this video?

[EthanWiner]

@PSYTRACKED I think it comes to about $12,000, though I forget the exact amount. Of course, you don't need that much treatment to make a very large improvement in a room that size!

[TheHelixSpirit]

I started working "in 1995" on how to use audio beams using a divided audio transmitter that interacts with other audio transmitters. The signal would touch the other signal and complete the audio wave. So one transmitter would send a vacuumed vibration not audio and would become audio with the other type transmitter. Audio reaction. Although I was eighteen and had been writing about how to cloth light from stars into a memory from past reflected light. I was very close to making uncanceled EYE.

[nu77yworld]

hi Ethan, great vids. watched one of your vids in a studio and you were saying about the cieling having complete absortion. Would i be correct in thinking that this would work on the walls aswell. i understand bass tapping would still be needed but would complete absortion in the room apart from the floor be a goodlistening enviroment( control room only).all the best Dave..

[EthanWiner]

@nu77yworld How much absorption you put on the walls depends on a lot of factors including the size of the room. This is a terrible venue for Q&A, so if you have questions, please ask in whatever audio forum you know me from.

[heyawhaw]

It's not clubs and bars that should have these traps, even though some acoustic awarness is nice when designing any room. It's when you mix and master the recordings you need it. You don't want to hear the room you mix in and you don't want to hear the speakers, so you try to shortcut anything that colors the sound. The idea is that you want the sound to be neutral when you mix, and then it will sound great in as many rooms as posible when you play it back in their respective sound systems : )

[richg101]

The change is apparent, but simply putting up curtains and sofa will do pretty much the same thing. shortening lf decay etc.

A room can be as flat as you can make it, but how many clubs or bars do you hear music in where the rooms are treated with all this expensive mumbo jumbo?

produce in a room with at least a bit of 'typical' listening room characteristics or the music you make will be sounding a great deal different to you while making it than it does to the end listener

[EthanWiner]

Curtains and sofas do not absorb a useful amount at low frequencies. This is a common misconception, easily proven using room measuring software as shown in this video. You are correct that performance venues don't have extensive acoustic treatment, but the good ones definitely address acoustic problems. A large room is very different than a bedroom. Small rooms have more problems, especially in the bass range.

[VibrationRecords]

lol - richg101.... what a bellwhiff!

[Sirvanslayer]

Fantastic! If only I had money. I like how the traps and diffusers can be moved around easily. Very clever

[kehkichan]

This is just wow. all i can say is wow. At first i know that acoustic treatments are important...but after watching this video, I discovered why.

[squidskunk]

verrrry informative....well done...and thank you..

one problem...most people whatching this vid. will not have treated listening inviroments...so they will not be able to get the full/entire effect of the tutorial...they expirience the same problems you address in the vid. in their own rooms...and that is a shame...

[EthanWiner]

Yes, though you can avoid that with headphones. But even in an untreated room the difference in clarity is pretty obvious.

[beejay1980]

this is a great video

a must watch!

You guys are Awesome!

[Chadfish]

Wow! There's a giant difference. No imagine if you were playing 24 bit files, how much better it would sound!

Just kidding Ethan. Awesome gear man.

[2009soundman]

The "before" and "after" examples underscore the value of effective acoustic treatment. Narrative and visual materials are well organized - a very interesting and informative presentation indeed! Five stars!!

[astralum]

Grate video, i love how you clearly demonstrate the difference so that everyone can hear the importance of acoustic treatment.

Cheers!

[spomajom]

again. NICE

those songs were awesome.

i'm guessing they are yours.

post more songs.

PLEASE.

[spomajom]

nice.