Re: SEPTEMBER DAWN FORCES LDS CHURCH TO ADMIT GUILT

[FernandoMuratMenezes]

It's a good thing people are entitled to their own opinion on all matters. This video presents the author's. Mine differs.

[llewellleo]

So from the oficial action we see the nature of the leaders, they did not want conflict, that other individuals,acting against the teachings of the church, commited this crime is truelly sad but to falsely accuse Brigham of knowing and participating in the slaughter by commanding it is a lie.

[llewellleo]

It is clear to me you do not know us so investigate, go to a sacrament meeting and see how it truelly is, all welcome, Sunday starting at 9.

[llewellleo]

How does it help us to present aspects of our history,culture,beliefs,practi­ses and our leaders in a false and dishonest way, are you any more honest?

[Braxtonmccoy]

I have been reading your responses to comments on your video for about 5 minutes now and my conclusion is simple. You're clearly a delusional moron regurgitating you're friends/family's/bishops false information and claiming it as fact. Then when fact is presented to you, you write it off saying 'there's no proof of that' when clearly there is. Don't bother responding, I don't have time to trade words with an ingrate.

[llewellleo]

I do not expect honesty from you, you have made it plain you do not care to be so but simply to continue your smear campaign. A small note, in the end the Federal goverment took controll of Utah and it was their responsibility to pursue the criminals and not Church members who at this time were a truely disinfranchised people, poor and hated by people simply because they had a differnt view on religion which did not suit the professors who claim divine authority but who lack it.

[llewellleo]

What you also love to omit is Brighams shock at what occured at MM. Your aim is to vilify him so all reactions that do not suit you will not be used simply because you lack objectivity. True the Leaders did nothing because they had serious concern and yes they did not rush to expose event simply because another possible massacre could have occured but this time against innocent Mormons who had nothing to do with the MMM. I fully understand Brighams actions because his concern was for the living.

[llewellleo]

The movie was a load of crock, plain and simple and good it failed because it lacked honest content. .Your view on history is very one dimensional. It lacks true insight and instead is filled with conjecture.If one studies the period one will notice that the MMM was not the only dramatic event of the time. A force was mraching on Utah and brighams main concern was not with the dead for wich he could frankly do little but to defend his people.

[IExposeMormonism]

@llewellleo Any defects in the movie only go to help Mormons, The truth is much more sordid. The Mormons had no problem Not killing USA Soldiers, where the Real threat existed. Mormons followed, burned,harassed the soldiers but no deaths. Yet at MMM the women and children and men were separated and systematically murdered. Briggy not knowing what was going on is absurd. He controlled with an iron fist,right down to marriage! The Mormons carefully concealed this crime, a conspiracy on many levels

[IExposeMormonism]

the Movie for all its errors only goes to benefit the Mormon. MMM was much more complex and insidious. All the quotes are true and taken from M' sources. The wagon train did nothing they were set up. They had nothing to do with Pratt or Joe or anything else. These innocent people were set up and ritually murdered, their bodies stripped naked, the bodies searched (!), left unburied, Children kidnapped and then the Indians were blamed! Then a conspiracy of silence ensued. All very Immoral.

[4everclairebear]

why cant people(the media and those uneducated people out there) just let all this stuff be? it is sooo stupid to be going on and on about stuff that needs to be left alone. it was over 150 YEARS ago. so read the article by the church and leave the media to them uneducated selves. they are soooo bias.

[theboofooguy]

Stay with the context of the video. They said that the church was addressing it on their website and in the magazine ensign. The clip of hinkley shows the FORMER mormon stance on it. You, as all mormons, skew the topic in an effort to CREATE a misunderstanding. This is a direct attempt to mislead people. NOT COOL! Why don't you address the Danites, and their role in mormon history? Address the things done by your "prophet" to young girls, and those that opposed mormonism.BTW Movie is factual.

[Jarkko1983]

@theboofooguy

there's nothing to address about the danites since they never got to exist, Smith took over and kicked them out of the church before they got to do anything, or can you furnish any real evidence for the danites?

Little girls were never harassed by Smith, he was sealed to one for the next life, to link the two families together, but marriages to early teens were normal at the times anyway. All reviews of the movie seem to think it's not factual, because it isn't.

[theboofooguy]

@Jerko "The Danites were real & went through 3 stages of developement. 1) Organized specifically for the expulsion of dissenters from the Mormon community. 2)From June to mid October of 1838, the Danites provided protection for the Mormons. 3) In late October of 1838, during the "Mormon War" the Danites stole and harrassed non Mormons. An activity justified and led by Sampson Avard." [Danite Study by Dean C Jessee and David Whittaker: BYU Studies Volume 28, No1 page 12]

[theboofooguy]

@Jerko For not existing, your church sure put a lot of time and effort into studying them. There is a plethora of information on the Danites, and their illegal activities. In short, they were a mormon hit squad who took their orders from joe, Sydney Rigdon, hyrum smith, and Brigham Young. It is well documented that it was they, who on joes orders, destroyed the Expositor printing press, ultimately lading him in Carthage jail.

[theboofooguy]

@Jerko Actually joe harrassed two 14 year old and used pressure on their families to ultimately get them to marry him. This is what Sydney Rigdon said of the practice: "First, insulting young innocent females, and when they resented the insult, these monsters in human shape would assail their characters by lying, and perjuries, with a multitude of desperate men to help them effect the ruin of those whom they insulted, and all this to enable them to keep these corrupt practices from the world."

[theboofooguy]

@Jerko Sydneys quote is from a letter he wrote to the Messenger and Advocate in 1844. He further went on to call joe's affair with Fanny Alger " a most dispicable affair" and also "lecherous." These are direct quotes from your own churches archives. You can look them up yourself so you know I'm not making any of this up.. You need to do your due dilligence before you call others scholar "not factual." Especially when the information comes DIRECTLY from your own church.

[Origin305]

@Christisms

That is your beleif. Now my beleif is that Brigham Young never ordered to kill women and children at any point!!!

Anyone who wants to read the church's account of what happened go to

lds(DOT)org and type in the search box september dawn.

[mrdeleted]

@Origin305 i got an error on their website...

[Christisms]

I feel that, based on the historical records, the shame was the death of these innocent people and the LDS Church's choice to cover it up (from Brigham Young down). This is equivalent to the Roman Catholic Church covering up the sexual abuse that Priests were doing to young children. I think all religious institutions have a moral obligation to inform authorities when these problems arise and to be open to the public when crimes are committed by clergy or membership.

[dajhrm]

Mormon = Moron

[live4shred]

where exactly are religion bashing and intolerance found in God's law and Jesus' teachings with which you claim to be so familiar?

[cbritton11]

Daj,

MORON? I've never heard that one! LOL

I have about 1000 Polock jokes that you'll probably take at face value too.

Just so you don't get sarcasm Polish people are NOT stupid. I didn't want you posting idiotic statements like you've done about the Mormons. Or MORONS......ha ha ha ha ha ha

You kill me!!!!!!

[dajhrm]

Yea its the anti mormons fault we used a peace sign, then murdered them, Wait a minute, you just said thats how christ would not do it that way, yet you claim that you follow christ. That right there is proof that you were not established by god, You should be carefull what you say, you just discreditted everything you have said and all mormon teachings

[dajhrm]

You sir are sitting there like a brainwashed pawn saying that the murder of 120 people was Justified because they were scared, or persecuted, Jesus Rebuked Paul for attacking a roman soldier who was about to take him to his death, Yet becuase they were afraid it was ok to MURDER 120 men and women, YOU SIR ARE INSANE

[dajhrm]

regardless the mormons who claim to be inspired by god killed over 120 people in cold blood, that is directly contrary to gods law. Murder or killing under any circumstance is unacceptable. You are all so brainwashed, J smith and brigam young orchestrated the murders of 100+ people, not something god would condone, the LDS chuch is a tool of satan

[IExposeMormonism]

Every inaccuracy only helps cover the truth of the full extent of the violence and conspiracy. Nothing laughable there. Its not funny when when almost 100 women and little children are ritually and systematically murdered. They were separated and murdered. Intentionally. Under a false Flag of peace and with John D Lee giving Freemason signs of peace! Perverse. "WITHOUT ANTI-MORMONS THIS WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED> You may want to remove this video!: Anyone disagreeing or opposing Mormons is error.

[TrueSaintsLDS]

another great video Jarkko

[gortons]

"..Would have never happened without the Anti-Mormons.." "..without the anti-mormons that fear and attitude would have never risen" And The Holocaust would've never happened without the Jews.

Mountain Meadow: Armed Mormon militia murdering unarmed emigrants after they were promised safe passage.

Haun's Mil: Armed Mormon Militia fighting Armed MO militia in a war.

[Jarkko1983]

Why would the primary or the Sunday school teach this, when they are to teach the gospel principles to it's members?

History of individual members isn't the concern for the church, Does the baptist or Methodists teach in their Sunday schools about a member or members of their church who may have murdered people???? thought so. But in the institute of d&c and the history of the church, mmm is taught as well, also I read about in the seminary of the of the church history, so you were proven wrong.

[Jarkko1983]

the burden of deonstrating how fair is false is still on you, I can say the same thing about your Jon Krakauer that he's writings are only for ignorant people who wont do their own thinking or homework, unless I demonstrate his error, it wont' change anything, I can't be bothered, because I know what's true mosttly and I don't feel the need to read every anti-book that keeps repeating the same stuff, just to convince you that I've done my "homework" I've done enough allready, youy proved nothing

[tylerjwhite]

Well put

[pangeanet]

Thanks for posting your comment!

[pangeanet]

Of course, what decent person would be "anxious to talk" about something that was such a tragedy? Who today likes to talk about 9/11? You never hear about the many murders, violation of women and children, persecution, even the legalized murder of church members by Governor Wilburn Boggs of Missouri with the "Extermination Order" (on the books until 1976). The group at Mountain Meadows was also from Arkansas and Missouri the same place. I find this very interesting and extremely tragic.

[Kafka1479]

"the movie was very poor..." "so clearly done with a hostile intent"

dude you are talking about the murder of american settlers by LDS members and you show no respect for the dead. women and children died that day. women and children. yet you just put the blame on the "anti mormons". anti mormons or not, you don't kill women and children. fuck Brigham and his band of cowards.

[Jarkko1983]

Brigham Young had nothing to do with that event, there's no prove to support that claim, but he did send an letter to tell the people to let the people go, but it arrived 2 days late. Leader of the massacre was punished accordingly and the church as an organisation had nothing to do with it, there's no proof. And in america youare innocent until proven othervise. Anti's like to put it like that mormons arte qulty untill proven innocent.

[dimtry19]

...Mormons should also admit that their founder joseph smith was a purveyor of forgery...wanted for bank fraud...and that he deceived MILLIONS into thinking "God spoke to him and "commanded" him to practice polygamy considerd immorality by the new testament church for 2000 years now.. ...SEE "DNA vs. THE BOOK OF MORMON"...also "THE LOST BOOK OF ABRAHAM (FUUL VIDEO) how science and historians are exposing joseph smith. mormon church founder as a fraud.....

[Jarkko1983]

Dna vs book of mormon has been answered long time ago, it's poor science coupled with false claims concerning the book of mormon and it's geography and claims. The lost book of abraham has been answered throughly aswell, John Gee wrote an rewiev of it tragedy of errors, read that and try to prove his analysis wrong if you can.

I have made videos on the polygamy and demonstrated how the bible doesn't consider it immoral, neither the nt church. prove those videos wrong in their own place.

[mrdeleted]

@Jarkko1983 Hey what school did you go to? Cause you use "an" in places where an "a" is supposed to be.

Also you seem vary defensive of the Church, which means that they taught you what to say. I don't think you are vary open minded, but rather just defending the church here.

Also I grew up Amish, and make videos about my people.

[cyberspektor7]

@mrdeleted I thought you people werent using electronics or accepting electricity... Interesting that you're on YouTube.

[cyberspektor7]

@mrdeleted I thought you people (Amish) werent using electronics or accepting electricity... Interesting that you're on YouTube.  And BTW, if someone was attacking YOU.. You would be defensive too genius.

[mrdeleted]

@cyberspektor7 I see no one attacking you. But you are right, I do defend the Amish at times, but other times I don't cause the person is right. Example is about child abuse, I do not defend the Amish in those cases cause they do need to fix that issue.

[Jarkko1983]

read under the banner of heaven? I have come to know after a long time of antimormon propaganda and after finding out about their mischievous lies, that no anti-mormon book is reliable, so that admonition will change nothing, that book is probably just one more of viscious lies.

The mmm was well known when it happened, it was also investigated by the federal officials, so what could have the mormons been hidings after the public facts were presented??? nothing really.

[ptricky15]

Anti-mormons committed horrible crimes against innocent members of the church and the injustices they faced have been attested to by many non-mormons of THAT time period. Still, the church in no way attempts to cover up any wrong doing by part of individual members of the church. Accountability is extremely important. But yes, they were persecuted.

[tinckerbelle]

what abount former mormon getting their phone lines tap and having their lives treathen I like the september dawn movie it get some hope to people to know what happen.

[Jarkko1983]

this is as plaussible as elvis being alive in a spaceship behind a comet.

[ptricky15]

Many things are distorted in the movie. The President of the Church was not responsible for the Massacre and the Stake Presidents in charge were excommunicated. The movie, although based on facts, is not credible or historically accurate. The Church does not in any way attempt to belittle the seriousness of the massacre and remembers and honors the victims with services every year.

[ptricky15]

Paid for it? Who was paying him for what? If your basis for that claim is on moral grounds and your moral belief system is rooted in the Bible I would direct you to it for clarification as to whether or not poligamy is in all cases considered immoral. Whether or not you agree or not it would have been very hypocritical for fellow Christians to have been so quick to judge so harshly a practice supported by Scripture both groups cherished.

[Jarkko1983]

I have made video's on the polygamy from the biblical standpoint, and bible advocated polygamy and never is against it, go proove my video f that topic wrong if you can.

[Jarkko1983]

we know it was real, I didn't deny that, but real knowledge wasn't available outside of nauvoo, only rumors that didn't ignite any real resistance. polygamy started earlier than is known, but people didn't know that in the 1840's outside the church.

These things are also all from the church history, even d%c states that polygamy was known early, but not publicly, todays knowledge is outcome of research that the people in those days didn't have.

[Jarkko1983]

SMith didn't have the expositor destroyed, it was the whole city council, where smith was also a member, but several non lds were part of it too, and they all agreed that it was a public nuisance, advocating violence towards the saints and especially smith.

Lawyers have investigated the event and come to conclusion that it was actually legal thing to do. So your history is quite distorted, all these facts are available in the church history aswell, nothing is hidden.

[Jarkko1983]

Fair also gives these events reported with te sources accurately, but you just don't like what they say because they can prove your opinnions wrong and the truth is not what you hoped for.

So polygamy had nothing to do with smiths persecution, no one could have persecuted for him for something no one knew anything about.

So current historical knowledge is only available to us and wasn't available then, not even n nauvoo expect as a rumor that didn't ignite anything.

[gortons]

Are you naive enough to believe the Mormon church would historically document anything that doesn't place them in the best light?

[Jarkko1983]

polygamy was not known outside nauvoo by antimormons, even though some rumors were send out, it took all the way untill 1850's before it became public. Polygamy claims from nauvoo times are distorted and exaggerated, and mostly false. Too little of real evidence is available.

[Jarkko1983]

I have red the history and I know that some mormons brought some hatred on themself because of their own actions, but it didn't justify in no case in hauns mill massacre. Because mormons were more eager to trade with each other was not a crime, also some lds were too public with their opinnion agains the slavery which also ignited hatred. Arrogance was the biggest crime lds committed and that's a fact, or are you gonna talk about danites next :D

[Jarkko1983]

And how could mormons bring the hatred against them in nauvoo, it was their own city and a stronghold, most of the people were mormons there, so how could their own actions be to be blamed in nauvoo period? Because mormons were more industrious and had more beautiful city than the loosers on the other side of the river? Or because the mormons had a legion and better weapons manufactured by mormons themself? I guess the fact that mormons didn't use legion or weapons even after the murder says it.

[omiolo]

my ancestors were murdered in Hauns Mill Massacre by the ANTImormons.

[omiolo]

the MMM was a sad chapter in LDS history. We agree the church members didn't handle that well.

Yes, September Dawn was a disaster, not only because of the poor acting, poor script, but because many people consider it fear mongering and bordering on hate speech, similar to the movie BIRTH OF A NATION.