Josh McDowell Testimony Part 1

[dancedivaforchrist]

@NotAnotherGeneration Just curious what word would you use if not an oddity. I consider it a privilege to be that sort of oddity. @MrAdvancedAtheist please clarify what you are trying to say with that statistic.

[MrPs103]

@t0mwidd if you don't have an alcoholic parent, you can only assume the shame the children of such live with. you truly don't know for a certainty the shame that is felt. being someone that had an alcoholic, abusive, and drug addicted grandfather, it's truly a shame that i have a difficult time explaining.

[edavisdavis]

People drink to forget

[tigoldbitties1]

why doesnt he talk more real to people he speaks in a naritive that is odd

[kittycatcarley]

My dad is an alcoholic and I can attest to that.

[Doomkin1110]

@restless1999 All the time. :)

[jazer120605]

go,go,go dr.josh mc dowell,he is a christian evangelical faith defender.

[Puckford]

just cause you don't like it otherwise, doesnt mean a crackpot fantasy is true.

[MyFartsRock]

23 seconds into this...Yes I have felt alone. It was when I realized relgion was a lie. All of the people I new that were christian let me go. I wasnt alone with them, I was alone because they choose not to talk to me anymore because I had my doubts about faith and prayer. Religion is a lie that makes you feel good. Like the Sanata Clause story did when you were a kid. There was no point in going more than 24 seconds. Just like the bible I cant get past the first sentance.

[bravo51408]

@MyFartsRock You are completely illiterate. Buy a dictionary. Seriously.

[PhoenixCrusar]

@bravo51408

Hey may be illiterate, but what he says makes a lot of sense when you get around some of his grammar since it really isn't that hard to understand.

[MrPs103]

@PhoenixCrusar yeah. he testifies that his grammar has never been good, and that he's struggled with it for a long time, but still his stuff makes sense.

[kittycatcarley]

@bravo51408 LOL!

[LMMLM2]

I will most likely never have opportunity of happiness or satisfaction from someone that has a better life from such council. This is okay cause the council is not for my benefit, but theirs.

[LMMLM2]

I would possibly be one of the hypocrites you refer to. But I have been told that to learn from ones mistakes, not repeat them, and helping others avoid them is called wisdom. Its not an in your face wisdom that says you must follow my way. But if I can help others avoid challenges and pain Ive experienced, that would be a blessing.

[hexusziggurat]

Bravo!

All too often I see young people just ride headlong into the escapades of today thinking they are at the cutting edge of all things awesome that are happening. This constant excuse of using intellect as a reason for the blatent disregard to restraint. It proves how untempered they are by not using the wisdom of those that came before us.

[NotAnotherGeneration]

If Josh McDowell personally live the message he gives in his books he would have been a 32 year-old virgin on his honeymoon!

See: tinyurl com/yg96tu5

[LMMLM2]

R U saying there is something wrong with being a virgin? Some people would take offense at this suggestion.

[LMMLM2]

Are you saying there is something wrong with being a virgin? Or maybe there is something special about not being a virgin? What is—is. And God, in Jesus Christ is, I quote "I Am..."

[NotAnotherGeneration]

In my experience, ministry leaders who preach abstinence do not respect those who actually live it.

You might want to ask Mr. McDowell that question, on the first page of his book "Why True Love Waits" he refers to a 20 year-old virgin as being "an oddity".

[LMMLM2]

I am sorry, I am not that familiar with Mr. McDowell's work here to argue the virgin as an oddity.

[LMMLM2]

My experience with ministry leaders, and lay-people are more split in two categories. The one you indicate lacking respect towards people who practice it are from the camp that have a belief practice called "Pharisee" in the time of Jesus. These people followed rules God and humans directed so well they worshiped their abilities. Because of this they saw themselves above the "sinners" around them. If this has been your only experience, I am sorry you haven't encountered the other type.

[LMMLM2]

The other type of ministry leader/layperson I have encountered is one who has walked in the path others may take. They speak from personal experience to try to help other's from repeating the errors they have done. The concern is not how I can manipulate others for my own gratification, but how can I help that person have a better life than I by helping them avoid pain and tribulation I have experienced. It is compassion.

[NotAnotherGeneration]

There should be a 3rd type, and those who actually lived the message they preach. Instead we have 2 ministry types who preach zero-tolerance "sexual purity" messages. Ignoramuses who got married before they were old enough to drink, and hypocrites who try to "make-up" for their guilt by dumping unrealistic expectations on others. Ultimately my goal is to generate two sided public conversations about these issues. You seem reasonable, you should contact me.

[LMMLM2]

I would argue the position of compassion is not zero-tolerance. For example I am a parent. I express to my child what I expect in some behavior and the possible ramifications the child could experience if this behavior is not followed. The child chooses to ignore my council and experiences one of the consequences I detailed. I do not drive the child from my home. I still love the child.

[LMMLM2]

But I will reinforce that the council I gave had a reason, and indicate that other council I provide may be worthy of deeper consideration the next time the child has a decision to make. I dont see this as zero tolerance here.

[NotAnotherGeneration]

I don't disagree with your point of view, however your it is completely contrary to traditional theology about it.

1 Cor 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

According to this scripture and the traditional understanding of a 'fornicator' you should put that child on the street if they have premarital sex.

[LMMLM2]

This was in reference to people who knew better. The people had good council in behavior that would make their life better and their witness to the Christ something worth of respect. You failed to continue the council:

1 Cor 5:12-13

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you.

[dancedivaforchrist]

@NotAnotherGeneration I must admit that I have not read his book, however statistically I can believe that a 20 year old virgin is an oddity. However that does not mean it is a bad thing to wait until you are married. If everyone jumped off a cliff would you jump to just because it was an oddity that you didn't?

[NotAnotherGeneration]

@dancedivaforchrist Virginity is not a bad thing. What is bad is when minsitry leaders like Josh McDowell insist on a zero-tolerance message of "Sexual Purity"then belittle people who actually live it. Calling somone an "oddity" is derogatory, especially from a man (Josh McDowell) who would have been a 32 year-old virgin on his honeymoon if he actually lived his own message.

[MrPs103]

@NotAnotherGeneration don't you agree that virginity is an oddity today? not that it's wrong, but that it's entirely uncommon

[NotAnotherGeneration]

@MrPs103 I agree it's uncommon, but labeling someone who actually walks-the-walk on that message as an 'oddity' seems disrespectful to me. Especially when McDowell would have been a 32 year-old virgin IF he lived his own message. I'm surprised he would use that term, and I'm surprised his publicist and publisher didn't catch it. I'm not saying McDowell is wrong to use that label, but I think these are matters he should clarify.

[MrPs103]

@NotAnotherGeneration i agree. thank you for clarifying your point to me. God bless you.

[MrAdvancedAtheist]

@dancedivaforchrist The surveys I've seen show a median age for men's sexual debut of about 17. That means half the guys have sex before that age, despite all the religious antisex propaganda in the U.S.

[hexusziggurat]

WHO ranks France as #1 in a wide-spread net effect of its overall healthcare system. Though its lazer eye surgery is not the best in the world, they don't have the best nuero surgeons in the world, do they deliver the best individual humanitarian needs for cancer treament no, these things are all ranked higher in other countries. Though an overall sweeping net of healthcare they are top indeed. If you want lazer eye surgery are you going to go to France...or Canada? (not counting logictics)

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

Listen, France is overall number 1. Quit Red Herring the arguement.

Secondly, love and morality are all chemical reactions in the brain. You can't say you get morality from the God of the Bible. The Bible has verses of raping women and murdering children.

Thirdly, all moral actions are done, because it's beneficial collectively to our species. It's really a common sense concept. There's a Scientific and true answer for almost everything. Just get your head out of the Bible and look

[hexusziggurat]

Theres no Red Herring there, it goes towards the point which you are still not understanding.

Love and morality are chemical reactions in the brain??? hmmm ....more like ...thats just what mankinds test-o-meters pick up and record, so thats how they have to explain it.

Interesting barbs you continue to throw at me as well...i don't miss a single one. "a common sense concept" .....hmm somehow i have lost all my common sense and yours seems to be the most common.

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

Yes there was a Red Herring. Quit lying about everything.

And yes, love and morality are just chemical reactions in the brain. To deny that would be to sacrifice intelligence for emotion. They are just chemical reactions and if you don't like that, too bad. That's how it is. We exist by chance, nothing more. Any other beliefs, are personal beliefs. They are not a Universal Truth. That's how it is. Period. This Conversation is over. I'm tired of you dragging this out to no point.

[hexusziggurat]

The point....you believe that you are comepletely correct without regress, & that clearly defines you at this time. I don't believe we are here by chance, but I am open to conversation. Conversation is'nt about trying to one-up each other, its about being open to ideas that others present regardless if those ideas make an impact on our personal/world views or not. "We exist by chance, nothing more. Any other beliefs, are personal beliefs" ...looks to me like you are trying to say Universal Truth

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

Listen dude. You believe in the Bible.  That is one book that is definitely not true. Until you want to present real evidence disproving Evolution, The Big Bang Theory, the age of the Earth, etc, this conversation is over.

I'm not going to waste time with someone who Red Herrings everything I say. What the fuck does the definition of "conversation" have to due with the subject/thesis of the conversation? Nothing. Once again, a Red Herring.

[hexusziggurat]

Evolution i do believe in (though your version may differ than mine). The Big Bang Theory is just that...its really just a moot point to argue over something thats "theory". Age of the earth is just fine...its old & keeps on getting older...wheres the problem?

I gave the definition cause you keep pointing a finger at me & talk about red herrings though. I continue to try & redirect your thoughtwaves to a more simplistic form so you can understand where our conflict is developing.

 take care.

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

Yeah, you try and redirect the conversation. That's a Red Herring.

[hexusziggurat]

hehe.....see you keep taking what i say and then recreate it to fit what you believe you hear. I did not redirect the conversation....I was trying to redirect YOU so you could understand me. Read what is said, not what you need to continue making false points & baseless remarks about me.

p/tyvm kbai

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

Your Red Herring AGAIN. You cannot stay on a subject. You probably failed Writing because you can't stay on topic. What I believe I heard? It's in the comments. Look it over. You change the subject and turn the whole subject of the arguement on me.

[hexusziggurat]

Red Herring = a deflection in the conversation. Understanding = a modification in the subject matter to a more simplistic topic to create a bridge by which both persons can communicate.

See if we cannot even communicate on a subject matter that we can both understand...it is best we talk about the subject in more simplistic terms until we reach a point where we can both nod our heads and say "yea that makes sense".

Its only turned on you because you continue to throw barbs...

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

There was no reason to dumb down the conversation. You were just deflecting questions you couldn't answer and statements you couldn't refute. You were changing the subject to avoid admitting you didn't have anything. Thus a RED HERRING.

Quit lying about what you were doing. Isn't that one of the ten commandments? Thou shall not lie.

[hexusziggurat]

hehe FM, yer a card. What needs to be admitted?

and yet more barbs.....

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

You do mental gymnastics to convince yourself that you are guilty of what I'm accusing you of. The same mental gymnastics all Christians use to convince themselves there is a god. lol

[hexusziggurat]

still more barbs. If those are the mental gymnastics you do for exercise....give me God anyday!

[hexusziggurat]

science is not greater than religion. they are comepletely non comparable. Its as if you are saying a car is better than a fruit tree....but not to the man that is starving, but yes to the man that needs to get to his own wedding...thats how they are relative if you compare them to each other....one can't be "better than the other" when they are not even in the same field to compare.

[hexusziggurat]

And you "know" they are lying how?

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

God told me.

[hexusziggurat]

;) take good care of yourself FM.

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

Some people aren't fundamentally weak and they don't need a comfort story to wake up in the morning. I can take care of myself. ;)

[hexusziggurat]

no man is an island, which you'll probably understand more clearly with a bit of seasoning from time and experience. Keep telling yourself, others are "fundamentally weak" if that makes you feel better about getting up in the morning or somehow gives you the qualifications to think of yourself as "he without a comfort story".

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

Are you trying to sound philosophical or something? If you are, you are failing miserably. You sound stupid. I'm not the one who puts myself on a pedestal. You Christians are the ones who do that. If you don't like the tone in my reply, don't be condescending in the first place.

Jesus is Santa Claus for adults.

[hexusziggurat]

If I sound stupid then you really haven't figured it out yet. The way you so easily name call a perfect stranger who challenges your testimony which has no basis shows that don't like words of advice/wisdom. "No man is an island" is a profound statement...& one not created by me, though if you don't understand the words you will always struggle & never understand your misery. Pedestal? what pedestal? Who mentioned anything about pedistal perching.

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

I have figured it out. Don't think just because I insult you that I'm a stupid person. I'm just really blunt with people there's no hope for. You're one of them. You say I'm miserable? You don't know anything about me. I'll repeat myself, I don't need fairytales and comfort stories to be happy.

Also, you've had yourself on a pedestal this whole conversation.

If you still don't get the point I'm trying to make, I'll send you a simple video that puts my thoughts into words.

[BruNoLoCc]

Yeah I think hex is right bro you are miserable, and bitter, and if you think you're happy, you're really not. The pleasure of sin only lasts a season, and there are consequences for you rejecting and disobeying God with your rebellious attitude.

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

I'm miserable? There's another example of you Christians putting yourselves on pedestals. You believe in the one true God, and anyone who doesn't is miserable and condemned to hell. You judge people. Well, you got it all wrong.

You think I'm Atheist because I want to sin? You must be really stupid. You don't know anything about me or Atheists in general. Don't make ignorant assumptions and judgementson people you have never even met.

[hexusziggurat]

I didn't say you are miserable because you don't believe in a divine being. My intention of your misery stemmed from the notion that you did not understand "no man is an island" (& you don't have to read any religious ideas into that at all). All people sin...regardless of their inclination to believe in a divine being or not. Its "sometimes" the desire for people to want to gravitate towards atheism so they can explore life's debaucheries & maintain a clear conscience.

[BruNoLoCc]

You put yourseld on a pedestal, you think it's all about you. I as a christian put God on a pedestal, it's not about me at all, I am weak and he is strong. Where do you get that christians put themselves on a pedestal?

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

Hahaha, where do I get that Christians put themselves on a pedestal? You guys claim to know it all, and that God loves you and made you in his image. That's the pedestal. You think you're special.

Atheists on the other hand just go with the truth. If the truth is that we are all here by spontanious chance, then so be it. We don't delude ourselves to feel special. That's you.

[hexusziggurat]

Well the belief isn't that God just made "us" (the so-called christians) He made all of us...everyone...regardless of differences in belief or our idea of what He is. We're not the only ones who are special...you are too regardless of what you believe!

Atheist go with "the truth". One thing can be for certain..not a single person "knows" the truth, thats why theists have faith and non theists are steadfast to tangible/retestable/already-pr­oven facts & neither are "wrong" in these motivations.

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

People don't gravitate toward Atheism because they want to have a clear conscience. Once again, you are generalizing and judging a whole sect of people.

You're right that nobody knows the truth. We could be in the matrix right now and not know it. The best we have is Scientific emperical proof. That lies in favor of Atheistic/Secular beliefs.  There is no Scientific proof in favor of the Christian God. None at all. That's why people gravitate toward Atheism.

[hexusziggurat]

"Some" people is the key word. "some" means a section of the whole, that is not a generaliziation. Atheism is not science...that is a generalization (I might add that is also pedastal perching right there, to believe that simply because one has faith they are lesser somehow because the atheistic sector somehow has their foundations in "science" therefor elevating their status...there are just as many in the theistic world that place value in science and utilize it to its fullest capacity.

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

Wrong again. There is not as many Christians that value Science the way Atheists do percentage wise. Not even close. Also, I pointed out a fact. If I note that my own group of people values Science, how is that putting myself on a pedestal? You're fishing...

[hexusziggurat]

Well the group of people that I come from (theistic community) we value science as well. We're not talking about percentages, and how can you quantify how somebody values something? i never said "relative about emperical proof", i said the word "best" is relative to the individual" excepted by when a mass votes on something but still does not supercede what is neccessarily "best" for the individual and the placement of circumstances of whats happeing to the individual at the given time.

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

You didn't comprehend my comment. Read it again. When in the context of "fact" it's not a relative term. Think about it.

[hexusziggurat]

I will agree with you facts are great, but facts are simply fragments of a "truth" Humanity does not have all the "facts", we only have some of the "facts" & therefor can only explain some things that make up the entire truth. Science does not give us a black & white world it simply lets us see a little more clearly in the grey.

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

Just because we don't have all the answers now, that doesn't mean we won't have all the answers eventually. Science only makes more and more discoveries, much of which, go in direct opposition of the Bible's claims. The two are incompatible, and one provides evidence for it's claims. The other provides nothing and leaves people to rely on faith alone.

[hexusziggurat]

The "other" provides lots, which you have not begun to understand & it doesn't just leave people to rely on faith alone...thats pure assumption again trying to group all theists' religions as without value & only relying on faith.

[hexusziggurat]

I'd like to point out "The best we have is Scientific emperical proof." "best" is very very relative to situational subject. "Best" is relative to the individual alone & on a larger scale "best" is determined by the masses which is not neccesarily good for the individual or the situation. "Best" is clearly a personal interpretation because what works one day may not work the next. (I could explain more on this to clarify but the key being "best"=relative). Both camps use "empiracal proof".

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

You're wrong about that. In the context of this conversation, "best" is not relative. There is not emperical proof in both camps either. There's nothing relative about emperical proof, and none of that proof lies within the believer's camp.

[hexusziggurat]

as quoted by you "the best we have is scientific empirical proof"....thats currently the best for you...and thats all you can claim about that statement...at this given time.

I'll use your arguement you used earlier...I surely don't "know you"...but surely you don't "know me" either and surely you don't know whats best for me.

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

It's not a personal assertion, which is why in that context, the term "best" is not relative. Emperical proof is the best thing humans have of knowing the truth. Emperical proof can go in favor of anything. It's just proof.

I stand by that quote, and still do not find it to be relative at all. If I was talking about personal beliefs, then it would be relative. I'm not talking about beliefs, I'm talking about emperical proof.

[hexusziggurat]

you are right in your statement. But your assesment of saying the "best" we got is "empirical proof" was being stacked against a religious belief-system....and neither are comparitive. neither one reigns supreme over the other because they are apples to oranges which I tried pointing out earlier. When comparing the two as in "what is best for humanity" they are certainly "relative", which is another point I was also trying to make.

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

No they are not relative at all within context. If I say France has the best healthcare system in the world, that would not be relative because it is a fact. It's the same concept with emperical proof.

Btw, I'm not assuming about the Bible providing little to no proof, self-contradiction, and inconsistencies. I've looked up a lot on the Bible, and I'm not assuming. My research is what has put my lack of "faith", written in stone. One does supreme over the other, and it's Science.

[hexusziggurat]

best healthcare in what regards...they may have the "best" in the eyes of masses & in fact excell in a great number of areas but they will not have the "best" in all regards. Some country somewhere would be more specialized in one area or in the same fields with a better actiove role on a specified number of individual cases that are non-confroming to the majority...so that one group would actually be the "best" or perhaps even how it delivered to the patient on a humanitarian level.

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

No, wrong again. World Health Organization ranks France as the overall best Healthcare system in the world. It's a fact that is not relative in this case.

Your analogy is faulty. A car doesn't disprove a fruit tree, but Science does disprove religion. It is not a relative statement. Science is far more reliable, and has supremed over religion for a long time. The internet we're communicating through is proof of that. That was invented by Science, not religion.

[hexusziggurat]

you're not really catching the point, even if my "analogy" is somewhat lacking. The analogy is not needed for actual "facts" but to bring to light an honest truth.

All the science in the world won't conduct a true moral fiber that is above mankind's personal viewpoint. Science is everything in the tools we use, you don't really have to point that out. you can believe science reigns supreme its just a tool, but thats akin to saying your drill-o-matic is better than love. I'll take love anyday.

[BruNoLoCc]

We are all weak in some aspect or another. Keep lying to yourself, it will catch up to you my friend.

[IFloridaMotocrossI]

I'm not, I just don't like when people go on pity trips about having disfunctional families. Over 70% of families in the US are considered disfunctional.

[hexusziggurat]

which does not dimish the testimony of somebody coming forward and voicing their own experience.

[thejette61]

My parents didn't come looking for me either. They are good folk. My Dad figured I'd come home eventually. I took it as a sign that they really didn't care. I was not special to them. I hated that about them. And I felt very much alone. I never knew this about you. Never heard your testamony. Powerfull. Makes me feel better knowing I wasn't the only one. I wish no one felt that way. Then God took my hand.

[NegativeNick]

you're obviously deluded by i can feel your pain and see why you've deluded yourself

[dimic]

Deluded, how? Explain how one can be deluded and not eluded for their belief? Deluded doesn't correlate within contextual terms of belief in a monotheistic being.

[chuytony7]

You didn't go on a pity trip about it, you're different, is that a problem for you that others think differently ???

[Pantherfan85]

Powerful testimony. I've had the privilege of hearing him speak live. Great man of God. God bless you Josh Mcdowell.

[23smith23]

Christians....tell EVERYONE you know about this guy!

[Potomacstud]

Bless you Uncle Josh !

[ytrimble]

Incredibly candid testimony of personal pain, God is glorified.