@dtmtung Nah, Skyrim is scripted to no end. It's all just walk around a big world killing shit that has been manually placed and stays there forever waiting for YOU the single solider of all awesome to stroll by so they can attack you and then you do a quest in a linear dungeon where you are supposed to kill bad guy XYZ and you have no other option but to oblige and be the games bitch pretty much.
Sure you can improve weapons and shit but the game has an end goal. Do A, B and C and then you win.
most people just think of non-linearity as "freedom" but it isnt... its about making the mechanics work in a larger scope
being given the choice of 20 weapons is more linear if you were able to change them at any time
but if for example you had to find a "weapons hub" in order to change, then that is not as linear, because you have to take into account the bigger picture of planning your journeys
@velocityeleven This is easily circumvented by being realistic, having a reasonable limit on the number of items you can fit in you inventory, for example. Perhaps allowing the player to carry entire armfuls of items (certain items being harder to stack or balance ), but making combat and negotiating certain terrain hard or even impossible without dropping some or all of your inventory. Obviously a mechanic like that would be very difficult for developers to pull of effectively.
I just read an article in GameInformer about a game called Dishonored which looks like it's gearing up to be a great, truly non-linear, game with layers of game mechanics that all work together to make amazing gameplay. It's art direction comes from the same guy who made City 17 in Half-Life 2 look so real and depressing. It looks effing amazing.
I'd rather play a really short non-linear game like you describe with tons of possibilities than a really long linear game with tons of cut scenes and little player agency.
I probably would get just as much hours out of this theoretical short game because replaying it would be a different experience for multiple playthroughs
I think by far the greatest example of non-linearity failing in mainstream games would be Spore. Go watch the GDC '05 Spore announcement video, then play the actual game. So much potential squandered.
I think it's best to clearly define linear v. non-linear. I take a sandbox approach. If a game has branching storylines and several endings, it's still linear. It may offer several degrees of freedom in how the story plays out, but it doesn't let you create or shape your own narrative.
It's the difference between reading a story (or choose-your own adventure) and simply writing a story yourself. Non-linear games are just a medium for that story to be written.
Sandbox zombie game please. L4D had the right mechanics to place an MMO "survivor family" in a large city/countryscape. Add a properly scaled real-death mechanic and it would literally be game on!
And wasn't Deus Ex non-linear plot progression way back??
I like that he brought up FarCry 2. This game had so much potential, and I was stoked to play it.
Unfortunately, the game is plagued by the problems he mentioned. (as well as poor AI and other issues)
This doesn't bother me so much as all the missed opportunities though. Imagine if FC2 had as many factions and options as Fallout 3, but rather than being tied to one central story, you could choose one of many goals to pursue, for the good of the African people, or for personal gain?
Harvest Moon/Animal Crossing games are non-linear. Hell, in both you're not really required to do anything, as long as you don't mind failing to pay your rent.
Seriously though, you say linearity like it's a dirty word. some of the best games were pretty dang linear, but they can use it to properly pace the game. Really linearity V non linearity is apples V oranges. both can be good and bad for what they are, but they are not inherently better than the other.
I apologize if this comment seems "uneducated", but I myself get upset when people have bashed Final Fantasy XIII for being "linear", when for all intents and purposes, (almost) ALL Final Fantasies have been somewhat linear/scripted. Just because you have more room/opportunities to explore/backtrack doesn't make it totally or even primarily nonlinear. If you do backtrack, it's to complete side quests or to level grind.
Dwarf fortress is a great sandbox game. The problem with it is that the interface is completely subpar. It has improved marginally in the last few years, but in the whole it is still an ugly beta of an interface, which makes playing it even harder considering the steep learning curve it already has. The problem mainstream developers would have with developing a game like this, is first they would have to improve the graphics to something the average person would find playable.
then the memory use would go up by a LOT unless they settled with something a little less crisp than dragon age 2, and even then the sheer amount of features involved would take MANY years of production. Dwarf fortress has been in production for nearly 5 years. it's not half way done. Sure, it's two guys doing it, but lets see you co-ordinate a team of people to get as many features in at a reasonable budget. You do realize it costs a LOT of money to make games, right?
scribblenaughts...well, at least tries their best. there are so many ways to reach your intended goal, yet so many ways that SHOULD work that...just dont.
1. the ability to navigate the enviornment similarily to mirrors edge and assasins creed.
2. the ability to develop and improve upon a vast number of skills, traits, ideas and beliefs similarily to oblivion but far more complicated and layered ( almost impossible to perform even basic actions until they've been developed properrly ).
3.an NPC/enemy AI system that can react to the slightest change in the world.
5. the ability to truely tackle any situation in almost any way imaginable.
I could go on forever.
my point is a truely nonlinear game should be an MMO/RPG/FPS/RTS/survivalhorror/TPS/puzzler
and it will take many years of trial and error before we come close to the right ballence of each.
games like farcry 2, demon's souls, assasins creed, penumbra all show promise in their own limited fields, but only through the blending of the genres will we ever come close to nonlinearity.
@InsanePickle007 I dunno if that's non linear, just replayable class roles with side quests. You still play the main missions the same way for each class don't you?
Sush about Minecraft guys. Minecraft is basically Dwarf Fortress for Dummies. Not that it isn't a good game mind you, it's a lot easier to play and looks better then Dwarf Fortress to be sure.
swarf fortres:matrix=pong:games, plus i always craved for possibility to completely destroy organisations outside of story or for games that dont have a scripted story and are superior to linear games in all aspects. Most importantly, everything you said after 7:23 should be written in the constitution, in gold.
The most non linear game I have ever played is Minecraft. There is nothing to unlock and nothing dictates how you play it. Hell, there is no real objective besides "Try to not die".
@leon00778 That's true. I just got it and it's just really expansive and immersive. The freedom to do and build what you want is really jarring at first, but it's great.
@DreviewerS i love minecraft but, i would hardly call it non-linear.
all you really do is look for diamond so you can find more diamond, or farm a heap of wheat and take it exploring or build super-structures. 3 things to do truely isnt a linear game, but that is just my opinion.
i understand that linear does mean 1 direction, but i feel that it can be used as a more blanket term for, say, not many directions, or 2 or 3 directions. i dont want to get pedantic about 1 word.
@EvlonAlpha I understand what you're saying but minecraft can be played many different ways. You can go on a crazy quest for diamonds or you can use resources you have to make crazy rollercoasters, giant castles or make a giant lake of lava. The beauty of it is that there isn't a set goal except survive so you can do pretty much anything you want.
Hitman is a really good example of a game that's none lineare or at least really satisfiying for the creativity. Just take Blood Money, the Opera Mission, and find out how many ways they are to kill the two guys without being seen. I have played this mission so many times I actually found at least 5 ways to execute them with 100% stealth.
Try out Fallout New Vegas too. First time I made a game that long without killing anythink except for animals and zombies...
I'm not sure the examples he gives are non-linear at all - you still have to kill the prescripted guy in GTA for example. Why can't you choose not to kill him and be friends instead? True non-linear games would allow you to do ANYTHING you could in the real world. Also, they should observe the butterfly effect: small choices you make early on should radically change the way the world unfolds later on. Otherwise a game is still scripted with a set path and ending.
My first leader in Dwarf fortress was good at engraving stone. I had a massive MASSIVE dining hall. Anyway, 90% of the engraving on the wall and floor, are her rise to power.
Hurray! I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees that inFamous isn't some awesome open world thing, but all it really does it let you shoot at people and then shoot at other people until you've shot everyone and then there's nothing.
i may be wrong but isn't Metal Gear Solid 4 like the game you wanted to see? it lets you choose how you want to get around things, like either run in and kill everyone, kill and save one side of the war (at the beginning) and have them be best friends with you, or silently sneak around and kill or so on, as for nonlinearity in story doesn't heavy rain give that?
Assassin's Creed II does an excellent job at being nonlinear, and that's why I personally loved it. While some assassination targets were linear like the ****SPOILER**** one where you use Leonardo's flying machine, but many others especially the side assassinations gave you plenty of freedom on how you wanted to go about things.
Multiple ways to complete a mission doesn't make a non-linear game, but a non-linear mission in the game. Non-linearity is what happens when a story is based on characters and what they would do and how they react to the player rather than on scripted events. It's like DnD or a LARP, the game reacts to the player and what they do. Events or even full missions happen or occur differently because of how the player is interacting with the world.and not on which of the 2-3 outcomes you chose.
Even though all of the events and how to trigger them are forced in the Way of the Samurai series, the ability to say "you know what, fuck this job, I'm killing my clan's leader" or "well, this town's not much different from the last one I washed up on so I'm leaving forever" or "you know what? I'm not gonna kill anybody. I don't do that. I'll just punch them into being sorry for their behavior" made that what I consider to be the most "non-linear" gaming experience I've ever had.
This is exactly what I've been talking about for a decade. I thought new technology in 2001 - 2010 would be geared towards investments in things such as Advanced "radiant" AI, emergents gameplay engines etc, etc, etc. Instead the exact opposite is happening. More and more games are being played by the developer instead of a gamer, and that's sad.
heres an idea, at the start of every mission in a game, start the character off beside a truck or in a room filled with all types of weaponry, after picking out weapons you are given your objective then the game lets you take your time with that mission, either planning an assassination or a full out assault, that would be awesome!
Dwarf fortress is the only game where this happens. I walked into a cave and fought a troll and the troll grabbed my helmet, pulled it off, and beat me unconscious with it. Then my character woke up hours later to see the troll had forgotten about me so I crawled over to it (since my leg was broken) and stabbed it right in the leg instantly shattering the bone and having the troll fall to the ground. I then went to beat it to submission with my sword until it died.
@sheep334 The graphics in Dwarf Fortress are the most advanced ever.. in a way. if you think about it. because your little story just painted an awesome picture in my head.. with my imagination. better than any linear game.
@sheep334 that's ridiculous and frustrating. How come a game which's graphics consist purely of ASCII symbols have that kind of complexity? and it's frustrating because it's so incredibly hostile to new players I cant possibly imagine mysel playing it =/
@conceitarturo I agree, I've played the game (poorly) and considered what a more user friendly dwarf fortress would be like, and based on my observations of the game, it would be entirely possible to recreate the UI of the game to make it much more user friendly. Firstly by completely removing the silly ASCII graphics and replacing them with real, representative tilesheets (you can do mods like this, but they suck and don't translate 100%) and using a real UI instead of purely hotkeys.
@conceitarturo thats my first reaction when i first played the game too so i uninstalled it... but i read a lot of epic stories that honestly, made me jealous.. people descending into the depths of hell to retrieve a sword and then confronted with dozens and dozens of demons, wrestling matches with trolls depicted in gory details, so i finally gave in and tried it again but this time with a tileset and from then on, it was spilling peoples guts and then strangling them with it
"Sandbox game" is an even more abused term. Playing Sim City is actually kind of like playing in a sand box. Playing Railroad Tycoon with monetary constraints turned off is even more like it. Infamous and sandboxes have nothing in common.
I hate it when people don't back up criticism. I have a huge story. Basically, I 'trolled', for lack of a better word, she flamed and trolled back and I won 95% of the fight. She got pissed and it was hilarious. Just because she didn't back up her criticism right away.
We need a zombie game with the GTA engine and design that is very challanging and "truly nonlinear". Hell it wouldn't even need to be related to GTA with it's over the shoulder/3rd person mechanics. It could be like Left4dead or Fallout 3 with its first person view and be 100% make your own story. choose what you will storyline. do you jump in a car and save your love ones? do you dash for the city limits in a chance to escape? or do you camp out and wait for a rescue? 100% make your own game.
I think Crackdown in sense is non-linear because you don't need to take out the people in an exact order and there are different ways you can go about killing them. Of course if you don't go in an order its significantly harder but hey its still in a sense non-linear
people call FFXIII too linear, 10 was linear, all final fantasy games have linear storylines with exploration added in near the end (when you get an airship)
What about Shadow of the Colossus? Sure, the actual order you do stuff and exactly how you have to take down the colossi is scripted, but the boss fights do actually have a lot of emergent moments.
yeah so far I find myself saying that I actually prefer "linear" games, simply because I love to blow my mind on a game for a couple hours and not have to plan my day around what I need to do, and make lists. I find myself doing things like this in Oblivion type games. I think a lot of game designers would actually define "non-linear" as referring to the order in which smaller linear events happen, instead of defining it as referring to the way options and events are available.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Your "non-linear" GTA3 example is, in fact, linear. I've watched several of your videos, and all I can say is, please stop. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Here's what's up op89x... you accuse the guy of not being good at what he does, but you don't offer up any constructive criticism, nor a true example as to why he's wrong.
Instead you simply criticize, and incorrectly. Linear means 1 direction, his example showed several directions to get to the goal.
There are MANY ways to complete the objective, hence NON-LINEAR.
Next time back up what you're saying with facts, examples, and a real rebuttal, or stop wasting everyone's time.
Wait so you are trying to refute objective evidence by claiming... ah I don't know... nothing except that you disagree with these rants? You define troll, seclude yourself and save the rest of us the annoyance of dealing with you.
the easiest way to provide a "non-linear" game, is to program in a lot of things that no-one knows exist. so program a lot of those things in the punisher game in, don't tell anyone and see if anyone finds them out, it will give an illusion of non-linearity that's a lot more convincing than infamous
in GTA 3, they just programmed a thousand ways to kill people and said, "for this mission, pick one" it bottle-necked at killing the guy. True non-linearity, would allow us to effectively say, "No, I don't want to", and bear the consequences.
Hell, even Spelunky said that a damsel can be thrown, block darts, and kill things it lands on, but all that had to be designed and programmed in.
Not to mention, a lot of these things Anthony's talking about seem like they HAVE to be scripted, just not in the way he's thinking. He did mention it would be hard to do, so I'd guess he knows some effort has to go into making non-linearity. However, the Baby in Dwarf Fortress won't commit suicide unless they program in the ability for it to do that. At most, they'd be able to say, "commit suicide" the character asks, "with what?" then have them search their area.
For example, in the original Mario, in one abstraction, there are all sorts of way to get to the end of each level, jumping, using a mushroom or power star, going through a pipe or not doing it, but it bottle-necks at the end when you grab the flag.
for another abstraction, you have to beat the game and find the princess. You could use the warps to speed up your progress, or enjoy yourself getting through all the levels, you'll bottle-neck at the end by beating the game.
basically, my idea is that non-linearity is, in actually, undo-able. It's like asking, "I want a big number" and someone says, "you should take infinity" well, infinity doesn't exist, it's a concept. The best games can do is try semi-non-linearity.
The Definition of Non-linear still seems ambiguous and undefined to me. I mean, the way computers, not just game consoles, but computers in general work is through a series of steps. No matter how you manipulate the steps, they're always linear.
I don't know if that makes sense, but the truth is that True Non-linearity leads to a game like Ultima Online, where there's no official, canonical storyline. You can't have an end, because that forces the non-linearity to bottle-neck at the finish.
No offense meant here but I think it stands to reason that linear games are the biggest part of the market because your typical gamer (that would be assumed to be a younger person with no attention span) doesnt want to have to think a situation out. They WANT to just run in shooting. I think that is slowly becoming something of the past with the recent Wii and DS titles I've seen though.
Flashpoint has some variability even though it's a shooter, especially on the hard mode. You get no directions, have to think your way around the enemy, and if you just run in guns blazing you die instantly. Personally I think that;s the direction to be headed in, not childish titles on DS (yes, yes, I have Scribblenauts, it's overrated).
Just a note: I think there's a large market out there for non-linear games. I personally love Morrowind because I can go where ever I want and do what ever I want within the limitations of the game, but when i've tried handing the controler over to my friends/roommates they get so lost without a sense of direction and stop playing. I truly wish more designers and gamers could be more like us, Rev.
I don't know if people suggested it, but did you play 2008's Prince of Persia? That was a non-linear game from top to bottom. Level design, storytelling with the optional dialogue, and plot progression after each world.
How they made your non-linear progression in the world and then somehow have a linear course for the plot events was really cool. At one point, the Prince actually starts getting emotional and nice towards Elika, but it's hard to guess when ;)
Well the new Heavy Rain game that going to come out about next year is nonliner because there is so many possiblities on how you can go through a single chapter and even killing your character is one and if that happens the story will still continue without that character instead of getting a game over.
The boundaries of nonlinearity should be talked about. I love dwarf fortress but not everyone can stand not having any structure in a game. Some would even argue without some definite mission or structure it ceases to be a game, and is more a sim or toy... Like, for me the punisher game just seemed like a tree of ways to go about a linear goal.
You are forgetting that he reviews games and this is his JOB.
Also, with all of the horrible fucked up shit that's going on in the world, you choose to to yell at people who can't do a thing about it instead? Great way to use your brain there champ. (This is a reply to DeadPianoPlayer if youtube screws up the comment order. :P)
Watching this 2 and a half years later, I can say only one thing:
Skyrim.
Your wish has been granted. You're welcome.
dtmtung 1 month ago
@dtmtung Nah, Skyrim is scripted to no end. It's all just walk around a big world killing shit that has been manually placed and stays there forever waiting for YOU the single solider of all awesome to stroll by so they can attack you and then you do a quest in a linear dungeon where you are supposed to kill bad guy XYZ and you have no other option but to oblige and be the games bitch pretty much.
Sure you can improve weapons and shit but the game has an end goal. Do A, B and C and then you win.
RealCadde 10 hours ago
most people just think of non-linearity as "freedom" but it isnt... its about making the mechanics work in a larger scope
being given the choice of 20 weapons is more linear if you were able to change them at any time
but if for example you had to find a "weapons hub" in order to change, then that is not as linear, because you have to take into account the bigger picture of planning your journeys
velocityeleven 3 months ago
@velocityeleven This is easily circumvented by being realistic, having a reasonable limit on the number of items you can fit in you inventory, for example. Perhaps allowing the player to carry entire armfuls of items (certain items being harder to stack or balance ), but making combat and negotiating certain terrain hard or even impossible without dropping some or all of your inventory. Obviously a mechanic like that would be very difficult for developers to pull of effectively.
gamegloss 2 months ago
Mount and Blade does this stuff REALLY well, you have complete freedom.
Naranja797 3 months ago 3
Try Magicka. The levels are seriously linear, but the ways you go about fighting is pretty nonlinear.
ApprenticeNick 4 months ago
I think the closest to non-linear that I've played was the original Mercenaries. Now, that was a fun game. :)
falariem 5 months ago
I'd consider Xcom and Star Control 2 pretty close to true nonlinearity
viewtifuljoe99 5 months ago
Wow. This blew my mind. I am going to go to bed and rethink my life.
Thecooljason1 6 months ago
I am surprised you did not talk about Fallout 3...or Mass Effect.
MusicJustin15 6 months ago
3 words: Just Cause 2
jokerswild00 7 months ago
@jokerswild00 Good game, but as the man says "I don't mean a game with a big world that you can dick around in and make stuff explode"
ilikeagirlfromthebu 6 months ago
I just read an article in GameInformer about a game called Dishonored which looks like it's gearing up to be a great, truly non-linear, game with layers of game mechanics that all work together to make amazing gameplay. It's art direction comes from the same guy who made City 17 in Half-Life 2 look so real and depressing. It looks effing amazing.
TheB345T007 7 months ago 2
"Dorf-- Dwarf Fortress."
Your /v/ is showing :D
MessrDookie101 8 months ago 12
some linear games are better that way aka heavy rain its a linear game(which is good for itself) that feels non linear
arga400 8 months ago
Good rant
tzatee1 8 months ago
Heavy Rain!!!!!!
EyeAmBatman 8 months ago
MInecraft.
superhippie87 8 months ago 2
I'd rather play a really short non-linear game like you describe with tons of possibilities than a really long linear game with tons of cut scenes and little player agency.
I probably would get just as much hours out of this theoretical short game because replaying it would be a different experience for multiple playthroughs
cwlithium 9 months ago
I think by far the greatest example of non-linearity failing in mainstream games would be Spore. Go watch the GDC '05 Spore announcement video, then play the actual game. So much potential squandered.
TheBaron87YT 9 months ago
I think it's best to clearly define linear v. non-linear. I take a sandbox approach. If a game has branching storylines and several endings, it's still linear. It may offer several degrees of freedom in how the story plays out, but it doesn't let you create or shape your own narrative.
It's the difference between reading a story (or choose-your own adventure) and simply writing a story yourself. Non-linear games are just a medium for that story to be written.
Agett 9 months ago
Sandbox zombie game please. L4D had the right mechanics to place an MMO "survivor family" in a large city/countryscape. Add a properly scaled real-death mechanic and it would literally be game on!
And wasn't Deus Ex non-linear plot progression way back??
lusulpher 9 months ago
@lusulpher meet survival crisis z, rogue survivor and project zomboid
scr3wthegovernment 7 months ago
Always love hearing a DF plug.
skellytinhood 10 months ago
I love how he read that article while the punisher is just murdering people behind him. c:
gumbobadman 10 months ago
I like that he brought up FarCry 2. This game had so much potential, and I was stoked to play it.
Unfortunately, the game is plagued by the problems he mentioned. (as well as poor AI and other issues)
This doesn't bother me so much as all the missed opportunities though. Imagine if FC2 had as many factions and options as Fallout 3, but rather than being tied to one central story, you could choose one of many goals to pursue, for the good of the African people, or for personal gain?
StraitRaider 11 months ago
Harvest Moon/Animal Crossing games are non-linear. Hell, in both you're not really required to do anything, as long as you don't mind failing to pay your rent.
JZHassan 11 months ago
stalker is linear. But the non linear parts are the best.
Random encounters with stalkers, and bloodsuckers are so fucking awesome because they can happen in so many ways so randomly.
lyzedpara 11 months ago
inb4 scribblenauts.
Seriously though, you say linearity like it's a dirty word. some of the best games were pretty dang linear, but they can use it to properly pace the game. Really linearity V non linearity is apples V oranges. both can be good and bad for what they are, but they are not inherently better than the other.
Exarian 11 months ago
Would oblivion and red dead be nonlinear?
Megatallica572 11 months ago
I apologize if this comment seems "uneducated", but I myself get upset when people have bashed Final Fantasy XIII for being "linear", when for all intents and purposes, (almost) ALL Final Fantasies have been somewhat linear/scripted. Just because you have more room/opportunities to explore/backtrack doesn't make it totally or even primarily nonlinear. If you do backtrack, it's to complete side quests or to level grind.
RocMegamanX 11 months ago 2
is bioshock nonliner?
RadioZombieX 11 months ago
Scribblenauts?
GamerKT35 11 months ago
Dwarf fortress is a great sandbox game. The problem with it is that the interface is completely subpar. It has improved marginally in the last few years, but in the whole it is still an ugly beta of an interface, which makes playing it even harder considering the steep learning curve it already has. The problem mainstream developers would have with developing a game like this, is first they would have to improve the graphics to something the average person would find playable.
afbee 1 year ago
@afbee Use the Phoebus graphic pack
35k1l0 11 months ago
then the memory use would go up by a LOT unless they settled with something a little less crisp than dragon age 2, and even then the sheer amount of features involved would take MANY years of production. Dwarf fortress has been in production for nearly 5 years. it's not half way done. Sure, it's two guys doing it, but lets see you co-ordinate a team of people to get as many features in at a reasonable budget. You do realize it costs a LOT of money to make games, right?
afbee 1 year ago
scribblenaughts...well, at least tries their best. there are so many ways to reach your intended goal, yet so many ways that SHOULD work that...just dont.
unsuburban 1 year ago
minecraft would count as nonlinear on hope
animekidbleachnaruto 1 year ago
I only clicked on this because I saw dwarf fortress in the background on the icon in the "Suggested videos" section.
Buggaton 1 year ago
old star wars galaxies; pre-holocron era; damn, i loved this game
"there you have a character. now do something... what? i don't know WHAT you shall do, it's YOUR character for fucks sake"
SoPoG 1 year ago
I played the storytron not long ago, that's pretty nonlinear (kind of the point of the entire thing, took Mr Crawford over a decade to make)
kimborambo 1 year ago
OK guys, Oblivion. That is all.
InsanePickle007 1 year ago
To me true nonlinearity in a game is:
1. the ability to navigate the enviornment similarily to mirrors edge and assasins creed.
2. the ability to develop and improve upon a vast number of skills, traits, ideas and beliefs similarily to oblivion but far more complicated and layered ( almost impossible to perform even basic actions until they've been developed properrly ).
3.an NPC/enemy AI system that can react to the slightest change in the world.
4.a mind blowingly complex web of events.
etc.
Amarkcalledme 1 year ago
@Amarkcalledme
5. the ability to truely tackle any situation in almost any way imaginable.
I could go on forever.
my point is a truely nonlinear game should be an MMO/RPG/FPS/RTS/survivalhorror/TPS/puzzler
and it will take many years of trial and error before we come close to the right ballence of each.
games like farcry 2, demon's souls, assasins creed, penumbra all show promise in their own limited fields, but only through the blending of the genres will we ever come close to nonlinearity.
Amarkcalledme 1 year ago
@InsanePickle007 I dunno if that's non linear, just replayable class roles with side quests. You still play the main missions the same way for each class don't you?
dan7564 1 year ago
Sush about Minecraft guys. Minecraft is basically Dwarf Fortress for Dummies. Not that it isn't a good game mind you, it's a lot easier to play and looks better then Dwarf Fortress to be sure.
KilloZapit 1 year ago
@KilloZapit Well minecraft is a copy of infiniminer which is based on Dwarf Fortress so that is why.
protercool 1 year ago
play deus ex! your choices drastically affect the progress of the story and there are many ways to solve each mission
Apotheosis275 1 year ago
swarf fortres:matrix=pong:games, plus i always craved for possibility to completely destroy organisations outside of story or for games that dont have a scripted story and are superior to linear games in all aspects. Most importantly, everything you said after 7:23 should be written in the constitution, in gold.
635574 1 year ago
The most non linear game I have ever played is Minecraft. There is nothing to unlock and nothing dictates how you play it. Hell, there is no real objective besides "Try to not die".
leon00778 1 year ago
@leon00778 That's true. I just got it and it's just really expansive and immersive. The freedom to do and build what you want is really jarring at first, but it's great.
drumsticks57 1 year ago
The last time I played a truly non-linear game? Minecraft
DreviewerS 1 year ago
@DreviewerS i love minecraft but, i would hardly call it non-linear.
all you really do is look for diamond so you can find more diamond, or farm a heap of wheat and take it exploring or build super-structures. 3 things to do truely isnt a linear game, but that is just my opinion.
i understand that linear does mean 1 direction, but i feel that it can be used as a more blanket term for, say, not many directions, or 2 or 3 directions. i dont want to get pedantic about 1 word.
EvlonAlpha 1 year ago
@EvlonAlpha I understand what you're saying but minecraft can be played many different ways. You can go on a crazy quest for diamonds or you can use resources you have to make crazy rollercoasters, giant castles or make a giant lake of lava. The beauty of it is that there isn't a set goal except survive so you can do pretty much anything you want.
DreviewerS 1 year ago
Hitman, dear sir.
Naranja797 1 year ago 20
Quit your job at Gearbox so you can do these again.
seanileus 1 year ago
Hitman is a really good example of a game that's none lineare or at least really satisfiying for the creativity. Just take Blood Money, the Opera Mission, and find out how many ways they are to kill the two guys without being seen. I have played this mission so many times I actually found at least 5 ways to execute them with 100% stealth.
Try out Fallout New Vegas too. First time I made a game that long without killing anythink except for animals and zombies...
SebLeCaribou 1 year ago
I'm not sure the examples he gives are non-linear at all - you still have to kill the prescripted guy in GTA for example. Why can't you choose not to kill him and be friends instead? True non-linear games would allow you to do ANYTHING you could in the real world. Also, they should observe the butterfly effect: small choices you make early on should radically change the way the world unfolds later on. Otherwise a game is still scripted with a set path and ending.
meerkat1954 1 year ago
The rarest thing you can find in a game is non-linearity.
Thats what I like about games like Fallout 3 or others.
Tekknique253 1 year ago
because of this, i downloaded dwarf fortress
NLPpreston 1 year ago 2
Comment removed
Sroek 1 year ago
What about STALKER, or Hitman? They have quite similar concepts to the ones he describes.
fragrat 1 year ago
The guy who made this doesn't know the difference between emergent gameplay and non-linearity.
prenticio 1 year ago
My first leader in Dwarf fortress was good at engraving stone. I had a massive MASSIVE dining hall. Anyway, 90% of the engraving on the wall and floor, are her rise to power.
RaiohTheHunter 1 year ago
I clicked on this vid just because dwarf fortress was behind that guy
choobsta 1 year ago
Hurray! I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees that inFamous isn't some awesome open world thing, but all it really does it let you shoot at people and then shoot at other people until you've shot everyone and then there's nothing.
mjc0961 1 year ago
i may be wrong but isn't Metal Gear Solid 4 like the game you wanted to see? it lets you choose how you want to get around things, like either run in and kill everyone, kill and save one side of the war (at the beginning) and have them be best friends with you, or silently sneak around and kill or so on, as for nonlinearity in story doesn't heavy rain give that?
3rchoas 1 year ago
Assassin's Creed II does an excellent job at being nonlinear, and that's why I personally loved it. While some assassination targets were linear like the ****SPOILER**** one where you use Leonardo's flying machine, but many others especially the side assassinations gave you plenty of freedom on how you wanted to go about things.
windowmaker525 1 year ago
@windowmaker525 Really? Excellent? Did you not even listen to the rev?
TheDefiantBadger 1 year ago
Multiple ways to complete a mission doesn't make a non-linear game, but a non-linear mission in the game. Non-linearity is what happens when a story is based on characters and what they would do and how they react to the player rather than on scripted events. It's like DnD or a LARP, the game reacts to the player and what they do. Events or even full missions happen or occur differently because of how the player is interacting with the world.and not on which of the 2-3 outcomes you chose.
nuklearstarman 1 year ago 2
Even though all of the events and how to trigger them are forced in the Way of the Samurai series, the ability to say "you know what, fuck this job, I'm killing my clan's leader" or "well, this town's not much different from the last one I washed up on so I'm leaving forever" or "you know what? I'm not gonna kill anybody. I don't do that. I'll just punch them into being sorry for their behavior" made that what I consider to be the most "non-linear" gaming experience I've ever had.
OMGmyFACE 1 year ago
Didn't Aarseth cover all of this in the 90's already?
goatslayer 1 year ago
I think GTA4 could pull it off better if they improved the scripting on the AI in the streets.
kilvertm 1 year ago
Fallout 3, theres multiple ways to finish each mission.
MrPathogenocide 1 year ago
This is exactly what I've been talking about for a decade. I thought new technology in 2001 - 2010 would be geared towards investments in things such as Advanced "radiant" AI, emergents gameplay engines etc, etc, etc. Instead the exact opposite is happening. More and more games are being played by the developer instead of a gamer, and that's sad.
Philosifus 1 year ago
@tophu1021
By mentioning Fable you show us that you didn't understand a word of what he was saying
Philosifus 1 year ago
As far as recent mainstream titles go, Crackdown?
muscrat01 1 year ago
God I love dwarf fortress (though jesus the learning curve is fucking vertical ;.;)
AtomicArmada42 1 year ago
What about Deus Ex and Fable?
tophu1021 1 year ago
DF fuck yes!
Brightgalrs 1 year ago
mount and blade? comments?
gsparx25 1 year ago
That punishment game was really disturbing. Why did you show it?
Other than that: WHY would someone want to play this?
emopizza 1 year ago
@emopizza I agree. It's just too brutal...
TheCongressman1 1 year ago
heres an idea, at the start of every mission in a game, start the character off beside a truck or in a room filled with all types of weaponry, after picking out weapons you are given your objective then the game lets you take your time with that mission, either planning an assassination or a full out assault, that would be awesome!
mullins96 1 year ago
@mullins96 Its called Hitman.. check that game out you'll have a blast.
TheHitez 1 year ago
Dwarf fortress is the only game where this happens. I walked into a cave and fought a troll and the troll grabbed my helmet, pulled it off, and beat me unconscious with it. Then my character woke up hours later to see the troll had forgotten about me so I crawled over to it (since my leg was broken) and stabbed it right in the leg instantly shattering the bone and having the troll fall to the ground. I then went to beat it to submission with my sword until it died.
sheep334 1 year ago 29
@sheep334 The graphics in Dwarf Fortress are the most advanced ever.. in a way. if you think about it. because your little story just painted an awesome picture in my head.. with my imagination. better than any linear game.
TheHitez 1 year ago
@sheep334 that's ridiculous and frustrating. How come a game which's graphics consist purely of ASCII symbols have that kind of complexity? and it's frustrating because it's so incredibly hostile to new players I cant possibly imagine mysel playing it =/
conceitarturo 9 months ago
@conceitarturo I agree, I've played the game (poorly) and considered what a more user friendly dwarf fortress would be like, and based on my observations of the game, it would be entirely possible to recreate the UI of the game to make it much more user friendly. Firstly by completely removing the silly ASCII graphics and replacing them with real, representative tilesheets (you can do mods like this, but they suck and don't translate 100%) and using a real UI instead of purely hotkeys.
Zuriki09 9 months ago
@conceitarturo thats my first reaction when i first played the game too so i uninstalled it... but i read a lot of epic stories that honestly, made me jealous.. people descending into the depths of hell to retrieve a sword and then confronted with dozens and dozens of demons, wrestling matches with trolls depicted in gory details, so i finally gave in and tried it again but this time with a tileset and from then on, it was spilling peoples guts and then strangling them with it
scr3wthegovernment 8 months ago
@scr3wthegovernment cool, maybe I should someday.....maybe if I watch some letsplay first? :p
conceitarturo 8 months ago
@sheep334 And that's great, but does it have to be so damn difficult to figure out?
LudusVan 5 months ago
"Sandbox game" is an even more abused term. Playing Sim City is actually kind of like playing in a sand box. Playing Railroad Tycoon with monetary constraints turned off is even more like it. Infamous and sandboxes have nothing in common.
gairabad 1 year ago
I agree with this 100%
Dreimar 1 year ago
I hate it when people don't back up criticism. I have a huge story. Basically, I 'trolled', for lack of a better word, she flamed and trolled back and I won 95% of the fight. She got pissed and it was hilarious. Just because she didn't back up her criticism right away.
LF>a game he talks about :D
jollypirate100 1 year ago
We need a zombie game with the GTA engine and design that is very challanging and "truly nonlinear". Hell it wouldn't even need to be related to GTA with it's over the shoulder/3rd person mechanics. It could be like Left4dead or Fallout 3 with its first person view and be 100% make your own story. choose what you will storyline. do you jump in a car and save your love ones? do you dash for the city limits in a chance to escape? or do you camp out and wait for a rescue? 100% make your own game.
ScarPred 1 year ago
@ScarPred starting to sound like "The Homer" car from simpsons
MRINTERDOG 1 year ago
Oh shit he said Dorf ..dem dorfs
thesorrow777 1 year ago
dorf
contagonizer 1 year ago
Wait, how about Arhkam Asylum? Oh nevermind...No, arrgh. Its impossible to make a completely NON linear game.
rollermaul22 1 year ago
Ok, Non Linear gameplay? Uhm Shadow of the Colosus? What about Borderlands? Or...Um...Wow...Um...D&D? lol.
rollermaul22 1 year ago
He neeeds to be a creative director.....NOW!
darkassasin66 1 year ago 3
Hitman?
IrishWarMachine 1 year ago
I think Crackdown in sense is non-linear because you don't need to take out the people in an exact order and there are different ways you can go about killing them. Of course if you don't go in an order its significantly harder but hey its still in a sense non-linear
xZombieNixonx 1 year ago
@xZombieNixonx you have a point there, you don't have to kill the gangs in any order.
tehSuperJedi 1 year ago
people call FFXIII too linear, 10 was linear, all final fantasy games have linear storylines with exploration added in near the end (when you get an airship)
only how you approach a fight is non-linear
falconpunch10 1 year ago
deus ex 1. enough said.
Superfrogds 2 years ago
@Superfrogds FVCK YEAH!
Jiggus 1 year ago
garrys-mod is only sandbox LOL
VPunisher 2 years ago
Sandbox and Non-linearity aren't the same things
l2ic3 2 years ago
@VPunisher and Zombie survival :D
darkassasin66 1 year ago
near every fighting game is nonlinear
because u fight a diifferent emeny from start to near finsh then BOSS
atleast that what most arcade modes offer
token1a2b3c 2 years ago
Yes but it's really just a list of moves you can do, and how all the moves combine into certain patterns
l2ic3 2 years ago
is mega man 1-9 an example of nonlinear
or atleast least semi
token1a2b3c 2 years ago
What about Shadow of the Colossus? Sure, the actual order you do stuff and exactly how you have to take down the colossi is scripted, but the boss fights do actually have a lot of emergent moments.
AwesomeLightbringer 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"Imagine you had to make a video game.
Choose a setting.
DO NOT WRITE A SCRIPT.
DO NOT HAVE A GOAL.
Now, the tools in the game must function on a scale vaguely reminiscent of Photoshop or MS Word.
The point of non-linearity, is the player's ability, not to decide the solution to the goal, but to decide the goal itself. " QFT
That would be TRUE nonlinearity. But chances of a game like that selling in this market? Zero.
MeowsyDancer 2 years ago
yeah so far I find myself saying that I actually prefer "linear" games, simply because I love to blow my mind on a game for a couple hours and not have to plan my day around what I need to do, and make lists. I find myself doing things like this in Oblivion type games. I think a lot of game designers would actually define "non-linear" as referring to the order in which smaller linear events happen, instead of defining it as referring to the way options and events are available.
elephantman2222 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Your "non-linear" GTA3 example is, in fact, linear. I've watched several of your videos, and all I can say is, please stop. You have no idea what you're talking about.
op89x 2 years ago
@op89x that's probably why he gets paid for his opinion. Cuz he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about right?
Good job being an epic fail douche bag.
daftbottv 2 years ago 3
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Lots of people get paid for doing things they have no business doing. Your logic fails.
op89x 2 years ago
Here's what's up op89x... you accuse the guy of not being good at what he does, but you don't offer up any constructive criticism, nor a true example as to why he's wrong.
Instead you simply criticize, and incorrectly. Linear means 1 direction, his example showed several directions to get to the goal.
There are MANY ways to complete the objective, hence NON-LINEAR.
Next time back up what you're saying with facts, examples, and a real rebuttal, or stop wasting everyone's time.
daftbottv 2 years ago 26
Wait so you are trying to refute objective evidence by claiming... ah I don't know... nothing except that you disagree with these rants? You define troll, seclude yourself and save the rest of us the annoyance of dealing with you.
Yoshiki03 2 years ago
Comment removed
op89x 2 years ago
and you people say there is no God
sethisawesome 2 years ago
If there's any game that could do it, I'd put my money on the GTA series.
HHKelevra 2 years ago
what about Blade Runner the game?? remember that? that was a very non-liear game.
Antauer 2 years ago
the easiest way to provide a "non-linear" game, is to program in a lot of things that no-one knows exist. so program a lot of those things in the punisher game in, don't tell anyone and see if anyone finds them out, it will give an illusion of non-linearity that's a lot more convincing than infamous
ApachiMaru 2 years ago
the last true non-linear game i played was sid meier's pirates
clayak47 2 years ago
What about the Way of the Samurai series?
The third installment was released recently.
Kurairu 2 years ago
Imagine you had to make a video game.
Choose a setting.
DO NOT WRITE A SCRIPT.
DO NOT HAVE A GOAL.
Now, the tools in the game must function on a scale vaguely reminiscent of Photoshop or MS Word.
The point of non-linearity, is the player's ability, not to decide the solution to the goal, but to decide the goal itself.
PlankKydo 2 years ago 2
in GTA 3, they just programmed a thousand ways to kill people and said, "for this mission, pick one" it bottle-necked at killing the guy. True non-linearity, would allow us to effectively say, "No, I don't want to", and bear the consequences.
Hell, even Spelunky said that a damsel can be thrown, block darts, and kill things it lands on, but all that had to be designed and programmed in.
SephurMcGoul 2 years ago
Not to mention, a lot of these things Anthony's talking about seem like they HAVE to be scripted, just not in the way he's thinking. He did mention it would be hard to do, so I'd guess he knows some effort has to go into making non-linearity. However, the Baby in Dwarf Fortress won't commit suicide unless they program in the ability for it to do that. At most, they'd be able to say, "commit suicide" the character asks, "with what?" then have them search their area.
SephurMcGoul 2 years ago
For example, in the original Mario, in one abstraction, there are all sorts of way to get to the end of each level, jumping, using a mushroom or power star, going through a pipe or not doing it, but it bottle-necks at the end when you grab the flag.
for another abstraction, you have to beat the game and find the princess. You could use the warps to speed up your progress, or enjoy yourself getting through all the levels, you'll bottle-neck at the end by beating the game.
SephurMcGoul 2 years ago
basically, my idea is that non-linearity is, in actually, undo-able. It's like asking, "I want a big number" and someone says, "you should take infinity" well, infinity doesn't exist, it's a concept. The best games can do is try semi-non-linearity.
SephurMcGoul 2 years ago
The Definition of Non-linear still seems ambiguous and undefined to me. I mean, the way computers, not just game consoles, but computers in general work is through a series of steps. No matter how you manipulate the steps, they're always linear.
I don't know if that makes sense, but the truth is that True Non-linearity leads to a game like Ultima Online, where there's no official, canonical storyline. You can't have an end, because that forces the non-linearity to bottle-neck at the finish.
SephurMcGoul 2 years ago
No offense meant here but I think it stands to reason that linear games are the biggest part of the market because your typical gamer (that would be assumed to be a younger person with no attention span) doesnt want to have to think a situation out. They WANT to just run in shooting. I think that is slowly becoming something of the past with the recent Wii and DS titles I've seen though.
GiaDahmer 2 years ago
Well like you said, thats the younger gamers. they shouldnt even be playing the games where you think things out. thats why there is a rating system.
UnderAgedProfit 2 years ago
And thats why there isnt a big market for those games, because they dont play them. That was my point.
GiaDahmer 2 years ago
Flashpoint has some variability even though it's a shooter, especially on the hard mode. You get no directions, have to think your way around the enemy, and if you just run in guns blazing you die instantly. Personally I think that;s the direction to be headed in, not childish titles on DS (yes, yes, I have Scribblenauts, it's overrated).
KraljevicPavle 2 years ago
Dwarf Fortress.
Boatmurdered, you will be remembered. ;_;
deathsheep 2 years ago 37
@deathsheep
AHOE AHOE AHOE!
Brightgalrs 1 year ago
@deathsheep
AHOE AHOE AHOE!
Brightgalrs 1 year ago
Scribblenauts looks good as there're hundreds of ways each level can be completed.
RonB193 2 years ago
hey dwarf fortress cant be that hard to figure out, im a very impatient person but i still took the time to learn it after i heard this story.
Noodler13 2 years ago
Just a note: I think there's a large market out there for non-linear games. I personally love Morrowind because I can go where ever I want and do what ever I want within the limitations of the game, but when i've tried handing the controler over to my friends/roommates they get so lost without a sense of direction and stop playing. I truly wish more designers and gamers could be more like us, Rev.
Spike0941 2 years ago
I don't know if people suggested it, but did you play 2008's Prince of Persia? That was a non-linear game from top to bottom. Level design, storytelling with the optional dialogue, and plot progression after each world.
How they made your non-linear progression in the world and then somehow have a linear course for the plot events was really cool. At one point, the Prince actually starts getting emotional and nice towards Elika, but it's hard to guess when ;)
moeezS 2 years ago
Well the new Heavy Rain game that going to come out about next year is nonliner because there is so many possiblities on how you can go through a single chapter and even killing your character is one and if that happens the story will still continue without that character instead of getting a game over.
GameGuyJordZ 2 years ago
Comment removed
itsJoNada 2 years ago
Postal 2. That offers large degrees of freedom.
UnstableInterface 2 years ago
How about Hitman?
foufz 2 years ago
The boundaries of nonlinearity should be talked about. I love dwarf fortress but not everyone can stand not having any structure in a game. Some would even argue without some definite mission or structure it ceases to be a game, and is more a sim or toy... Like, for me the punisher game just seemed like a tree of ways to go about a linear goal.
nutherefurlong 2 years ago
Elder scrolls 3 has such nonlinear possibilities beyond the main story. Has to be included.
mattnorton5 2 years ago
True Nonlinearity = Scribblenauts
wait2minutesplz 2 years ago 2
I wish I was good at Dwarf Fortress too
The developer is planning to make it easier to play, but it'll take a while
Doom2Guy 2 years ago
Yume Nikki is a good example of a nonlinear game. You get to run around as a little girl inside your own twisted subconscious.
protonmonkey 2 years ago
No, everything that happens there is scripted
Way to miss the point
Doom2Guy 2 years ago
As per usual, I agreed with about half of what you said.
And if you want an example of a non-linear mainstream game, go play crackdown.
Lanvarok93 2 years ago
I think the drowning baby was really a pathfinding error
G3rq 2 years ago
No, Dwarfs often commit suicide when something horrible happens
Doom2Guy 2 years ago
One word: LOVE.
It's an MMO. Google it.
SexyMelon 2 years ago
Dude, what f***d up game was that during the Punisher Rant??
Kaffeebohnson 2 years ago
The Punisher game....
Urb4nZ0mb13 2 years ago
Sims? SimCity?
That's about all I got.
nullArray 2 years ago
Scribblenauts maybe.
HurinFan 2 years ago
i think that hitman blood money succeded in giving you many options and fahrenheit ( indigo prophecy) did that as well..
nikosthefreeman 2 years ago
I've had ideas for a game... the mmultiplayer part...
OriginalDeathpill 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
out of all the horrible fucked up shit thats going on in the world, you choose to bitch about this crap!??! great way to use your soapbox.
DeadPianoPlayer 2 years ago
You are forgetting that he reviews games and this is his JOB.
Also, with all of the horrible fucked up shit that's going on in the world, you choose to to yell at people who can't do a thing about it instead? Great way to use your brain there champ. (This is a reply to DeadPianoPlayer if youtube screws up the comment order. :P)
IamMe7073 2 years ago 2
Whats the song in the beging???
xXcoolaidXx 2 years ago
I think it's Muse - Knights of Cydonia.
RagingLion 2 years ago