Thanks for everyone's comments and views! Just so everyone knows, this conversation was recorded before "line up and wait" became the new terminology. All pilots and Air Traffic Controllers are instructed to say "line up and wait". Thanks again for your responses!
Just to clarify, position and hold means to proceed on to the runway, line up and and wait for further clearance. The FAA changed the phraseology of this term to line up and wait, so you should no longer use the term position and hold.
controller just wanted the pilot to say what he did so he wouldnt get in trouble because if he allowed th epilot to read with line up and wait and the pilot caused an incursion he would be in hot water even though the pilot knew he meant position and hold...the controller was just watching his ass
No, position and hold is the correct phrase. Hold short is crystal clear. Line up and wait is not clear enough. I know from watching videos on Youtube that Line up and wait has been used in Europe for years now. Over 20 years? Anyway, it should be "Taxi into position on the runway and hold in position." or for short, "position and hold." The other phrase should be, "Taxi to Runway XX and hold short of the runway." or..."Hold short." "Line up and wait" sounds like lining up on a busy taxiway.
line up and wait is actually the correct one, even for you USA guys.... but i really dont find that much trouble if you comply with whatever pharseology someone else uses, just as long as you're a 100% sure of what they meant....
I use whatever instruction is issued to me, readback what you are told. Though i've only ever been told to "line up and wait" on the runway. When told to taxi to a holding point, i'm simply told "taxi holding point Aplha". So basically you know you have to hold there when you get there.
@marcchilton2 What's point alpha? All runways have a hold line. The proper instruction is to hold short...meaning stay short of the hold line. Line up and wait could mean to move slowly down the taxiway in a line of aircraft. The world wide switch should have been to "Hold short" and "Position and hold." All this is, is a world wide power struggle...and America lost. World dominance is being transfered OUT of America by the coprorate oligarchy.
@JetMechMA On the runway i'm always told line-up at wait. Point alpha was just an example of holding point at a runway entrance. Bottom line for me is just readback what you are told as long as you understand it.
Wait where? On the RWY, ILS hold short line at taxi way intersection Charli/Bravo, behind United 1132? The hold tells you exactly to stay behind the RWY hold short line and not to get on the RWY yet until instructed to do so, wait does not.
@helobelow I do not understand your question. This video just shows how an aircraft is instructed to line up and wait but the aircraft responds as position and hold. An aircraft is usually instructed to line up and wait or position and hold, when at the hold short line. When the aircraft is holding short, ATC can instruct an aircraft to position and hold; crossover the hold line, line up with the runway's center line, and hold; wait for take-off clearance.
@tylerbm1997 My apologies, it was a rhetorical question. I was making fun of the "Wait" command because it is so ambiguous. The hold command let's me know (being a commercial pilot) exactly where I need to be in order to avoid confusion while taxiing. I've written over 35 published papers on incidents and accidents for the APA and I'm a safety mentor for the FAA's FAAST Team and AOPA's safety mentor for pilots. Sorry bout the confusion and thanks for clearing it up for non-pilots!
@swtrooper11 Line up and wait is a command that is used by ATC to pilots to instruct them to turn onto the runway from the taxiway, line up on the runway and then wait. But due to confusion in the terminology, the FAA has changed the term to position and hold.
@tylerbm1997 Well, the FAA official instruction used to be "Position and Hold", the ICAO (the rest of the world, almost) uses "Line up and wait". Now the FAA has changed the instruction to match ICAO. so now all over the world the instruction is "Line up and Wait"
@tylerbm1997 Listening, it's obvious the pilot isn't from the US. I think I hear "starway", which is XL Airways France, a French company operating outa Paris De Gaulle. Since they're under JAA regulations and the FAA was still using the "position and hold" at that time, that's the reason for the confusion. I think it's weird though, that the US controller hadn't heard "line up and wait" before, surely some other european guy must've said that before?
@tylerbm1997 ?? I swear they changed it to line up and wait... position and hold has more than one meaning... it could mean stay where you are... line up (i.e. line up with centreline) and wait. Very clear instruction there. Line up with the centreline and wait. very simple.... how's that confusing?
@FF35Pilot They did change it to Line Up and Wait. This conversation took place before it was changed officially. The pilot was probably use to saying "position and hold" and the controller was probably saying "line up and wait" to get pilots used to hearing it. It was just a conflict of preferences. But now it is mandatory that ALL pilots and Air Traffic Controllers use the term, "line up and wait".
I'm a controller and I really can't get a grip why so many controllers use "wait" with the lineup clearence. It's not like "line up" is to be confused with any other regular clearences and if the controller plan to give the takeoff-clearence in a timely matter I can't see the use of the wait. I rarely use wait I often use "line up" or "line up and prepare for immidiate departure".
@HenkeB " 755Echo Wilco, Line up and prepare for departure. Hello Tower, Helicopter 755 Echo requests immediate departure direct out over the east hangers and wait for instructions. Helicopter 755 Echo" Man I'm glad I don't have to line up and do all that crap....lol!
The law requires that the controller get an EXACT readback for EVERY Clearance. That means word for word. The controller is REQUIRED to verify that the clearance was received. It's not being a jerk. It is doing his job and adhering to regulations. At the time this video was taken, the only accepted response would have been to read back the controller's runway clearance. It's not a choice that the controller is allowed to make and the pilot damn well knew that.
@dcorman Actually according to the FAA: wilco, roger, or affirmative plus a call sign is a correct readback. You do not have to readback anything. Most airline SOPs probably make pilots read back all clearances and instructions verbatim for safety, but not the FAA. "JO 7110.65T 2-4-3
@landmark425 The FARs require that all Take-Off, Landing, Entering Class Bravo Airspace and Runway Crossing clearances are read back verbatim. It really is not optional.
Some of you are retarded - the controller doesn't give a shit what nationality the pilot is, they're in UNITED STATES AIR SPACE and are required to abide by FAA rules and standard US ATC phraseology - both were "arguing" but the pilot's ICAO terminology was incorrect, controller was in the right to clarify and correct him.
We Americans make every other countries' pilots speak ENGLISH, and entire different language than they use. So I'm not going to complain about having to change a single sentence!!!
@gIenr88 It certainly is not OK, but most American Pilots that I know are aware of that and they use the proper terminology when using foreign airspace. Not out of courtesy, but because it is the law.
ICAO RTF manual states clearly "Line up and wait". After readback and lining up, the pilot should say "Ready for departure" before he receives the T/O clearance. I'd rather say that Position and hold is ambiguous. But it's one among many differences between USA and the rest of the World... (like decimal and point, QNH and altimeter, inch and hPa etc)
Thank you to all of your comments! As an American 13 year old wanting to be a pilot, I favor Postion and Hold but like what rclcryan said, Position and Hold to is just a little to general but like I said I favor it because I am used to it being an American and thats what we say over here... Once again thank you for the comments and the amount of views!! Keep them coming!! :)
Line up and wait is probably better for international fights. They're used to it. However, my beef with "line up and wait" is this: Line up I get okay, I line up on the runway, but "wait"? That could be construed as so much. Wait, wait for what? Wait for the departing aircraft? What for your signal? Wait for the aircraft on the runway? "wait" to me is too ambiguous.
(Spelling/typographical "errors" intended) No offenSe intended to my friends and family across the pond, but over here it's "Position and hold" although I could see the huMOR in this clip, we have different phraseology and spelling on both sides of the pond, so please remember that.
LINE up and wait is the so shitty. The US airports will be using the line up and wait shit coming up soon. Whats easier to say "position and hold" or "line up and wait" Theres already enough that must be said, why add more?
Yeah, it was changed cause the foreign pilots that dont speak english as a first language had trouble understanding the phrase position and hold.
MaroonCamaro 1 month ago
Thanks for everyone's comments and views! Just so everyone knows, this conversation was recorded before "line up and wait" became the new terminology. All pilots and Air Traffic Controllers are instructed to say "line up and wait". Thanks again for your responses!
tylerbm1997 3 months ago
Just to clarify, position and hold means to proceed on to the runway, line up and and wait for further clearance. The FAA changed the phraseology of this term to line up and wait, so you should no longer use the term position and hold.
wcelton 4 months ago
Line up & hold Sounds very much like Line up & Roll over the radio, At least by saying Line up & wait there is no confusion!
cushynumbers 4 months ago
controller just wanted the pilot to say what he did so he wouldnt get in trouble because if he allowed th epilot to read with line up and wait and the pilot caused an incursion he would be in hot water even though the pilot knew he meant position and hold...the controller was just watching his ass
wesker0900 5 months ago
@wesker0900 they mean the same thing, in both cases the aircraft is already on the runway. You are thinking of hold short.
Stupendoussteve 4 months ago
Comment removed
wesker0900 5 months ago
No, position and hold is the correct phrase. Hold short is crystal clear. Line up and wait is not clear enough. I know from watching videos on Youtube that Line up and wait has been used in Europe for years now. Over 20 years? Anyway, it should be "Taxi into position on the runway and hold in position." or for short, "position and hold." The other phrase should be, "Taxi to Runway XX and hold short of the runway." or..."Hold short." "Line up and wait" sounds like lining up on a busy taxiway.
JetMechMA 5 months ago
Line up and wait is better because "hold position" and "position and hold" can be confusing
brettnia 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@brettnia: Line up and wait is better because "hold position" and "position and hold" can be confusing
JM: What's confusing about it? First of all, you aren't saying it correctly. There is no "hold position". It's "Hold short", which is crystal clear.
JetMechMA 5 months ago
I only hear "line up and wait" now at busy airports (van nuys, LAX, long beach, ontario, etc.... I havent heard "position and hold" in a while.
ColtDeltaElite10mm 6 months ago
Funny, when im flying the 757 they instruct me to "position and hold", but when im flying my private jet I get "line up and wait"
FS2004ai 6 months ago
line up and wait is actually the correct one, even for you USA guys.... but i really dont find that much trouble if you comply with whatever pharseology someone else uses, just as long as you're a 100% sure of what they meant....
daspidrr 6 months ago
I use whatever instruction is issued to me, readback what you are told. Though i've only ever been told to "line up and wait" on the runway. When told to taxi to a holding point, i'm simply told "taxi holding point Aplha". So basically you know you have to hold there when you get there.
marcchilton2 6 months ago
@marcchilton2 What's point alpha? All runways have a hold line. The proper instruction is to hold short...meaning stay short of the hold line. Line up and wait could mean to move slowly down the taxiway in a line of aircraft. The world wide switch should have been to "Hold short" and "Position and hold." All this is, is a world wide power struggle...and America lost. World dominance is being transfered OUT of America by the coprorate oligarchy.
JetMechMA 5 months ago
@JetMechMA On the runway i'm always told line-up at wait. Point alpha was just an example of holding point at a runway entrance. Bottom line for me is just readback what you are told as long as you understand it.
marcchilton2 5 months ago
@marcchilton2 I can dig that. Whatever program they go with ...ours is to obey. ;)
JetMechMA 5 months ago
Long story short, they both mean the same thing, position and hold is said in the USA and line up and wait in the rest of the world.
kowabunga87 6 months ago
@kowabunga87 No.... Line up and wait is the entire world. The US no longer uses this phraseology.
JumpStartation 6 months ago
@JumpStartation Oh ok! Thanks! That seems to have escaped me.
kowabunga87 6 months ago
This is why the FAA changed the phraseology to be "Line up and wait" along with the rest of the world.
JumpStartation 6 months ago
Position and hold till the day i die. Line up and wait sounds like I don't know how to speak.
snoskier10392 8 months ago
Wait where? On the RWY, ILS hold short line at taxi way intersection Charli/Bravo, behind United 1132? The hold tells you exactly to stay behind the RWY hold short line and not to get on the RWY yet until instructed to do so, wait does not.
helobelow 9 months ago
@helobelow I do not understand your question. This video just shows how an aircraft is instructed to line up and wait but the aircraft responds as position and hold. An aircraft is usually instructed to line up and wait or position and hold, when at the hold short line. When the aircraft is holding short, ATC can instruct an aircraft to position and hold; crossover the hold line, line up with the runway's center line, and hold; wait for take-off clearance.
tylerbm1997 9 months ago
@tylerbm1997 My apologies, it was a rhetorical question. I was making fun of the "Wait" command because it is so ambiguous. The hold command let's me know (being a commercial pilot) exactly where I need to be in order to avoid confusion while taxiing. I've written over 35 published papers on incidents and accidents for the APA and I'm a safety mentor for the FAA's FAAST Team and AOPA's safety mentor for pilots. Sorry bout the confusion and thanks for clearing it up for non-pilots!
helobelow 9 months ago
Comment removed
helobelow 9 months ago
what is line up and wait?
swtrooper11 9 months ago
@swtrooper11 Line up and wait is a command that is used by ATC to pilots to instruct them to turn onto the runway from the taxiway, line up on the runway and then wait. But due to confusion in the terminology, the FAA has changed the term to position and hold.
tylerbm1997 9 months ago
@tylerbm1997 ah thanks . I knew only taxi into position and hold :)
swtrooper11 9 months ago
@tylerbm1997 Well, the FAA official instruction used to be "Position and Hold", the ICAO (the rest of the world, almost) uses "Line up and wait". Now the FAA has changed the instruction to match ICAO. so now all over the world the instruction is "Line up and Wait"
leyva1998 8 months ago 10
@leyva1998 Sorry, yes my mistake.
tylerbm1997 8 months ago
@tylerbm1997 Listening, it's obvious the pilot isn't from the US. I think I hear "starway", which is XL Airways France, a French company operating outa Paris De Gaulle. Since they're under JAA regulations and the FAA was still using the "position and hold" at that time, that's the reason for the confusion. I think it's weird though, that the US controller hadn't heard "line up and wait" before, surely some other european guy must've said that before?
maggus999 4 months ago
@tylerbm1997 ?? I swear they changed it to line up and wait... position and hold has more than one meaning... it could mean stay where you are... line up (i.e. line up with centreline) and wait. Very clear instruction there. Line up with the centreline and wait. very simple.... how's that confusing?
FF35Pilot 3 months ago
@FF35Pilot They did change it to Line Up and Wait. This conversation took place before it was changed officially. The pilot was probably use to saying "position and hold" and the controller was probably saying "line up and wait" to get pilots used to hearing it. It was just a conflict of preferences. But now it is mandatory that ALL pilots and Air Traffic Controllers use the term, "line up and wait".
tylerbm1997 3 months ago
I'm a controller and I really can't get a grip why so many controllers use "wait" with the lineup clearence. It's not like "line up" is to be confused with any other regular clearences and if the controller plan to give the takeoff-clearence in a timely matter I can't see the use of the wait. I rarely use wait I often use "line up" or "line up and prepare for immidiate departure".
HenkeB 9 months ago
@HenkeB " 755Echo Wilco, Line up and prepare for departure. Hello Tower, Helicopter 755 Echo requests immediate departure direct out over the east hangers and wait for instructions. Helicopter 755 Echo" Man I'm glad I don't have to line up and do all that crap....lol!
helobelow 9 months ago
Realy cool !
Slaterator 9 months ago
JFK DOES WIN in this situation. At this time line up and wait WAS NOT being used in the USA. TIPH and JFK tower FTW.
NYZPilot622 9 months ago
that line up and wait crap is total ass
lorenzo19935 10 months ago 3
Who gives a shit! its like the difference between, "What time is it?" and "What is the time?" lol pick one it doesn really matter xD
Logo3801 10 months ago
no JFK does not win, everywhere else in the world the instruction is "line-up and wait", the US just wants to be different...as usual.
markovicmitchell 10 months ago
@markovicmitchell Well now the US has changed the term to "Line-up and Wait" so now the US is "in-sync" with the rest of the world.
tylerbm1997 10 months ago
@tylerbm1997
It's not like the US invented aviation or anything, but that's cool I guess.
fhslax 9 months ago
@markovicmitchell because we are different!
helobelow 9 months ago
The law requires that the controller get an EXACT readback for EVERY Clearance. That means word for word. The controller is REQUIRED to verify that the clearance was received. It's not being a jerk. It is doing his job and adhering to regulations. At the time this video was taken, the only accepted response would have been to read back the controller's runway clearance. It's not a choice that the controller is allowed to make and the pilot damn well knew that.
dcorman 11 months ago
@dcorman Actually according to the FAA: wilco, roger, or affirmative plus a call sign is a correct readback. You do not have to readback anything. Most airline SOPs probably make pilots read back all clearances and instructions verbatim for safety, but not the FAA. "JO 7110.65T 2-4-3
landmark425 10 months ago
@landmark425 The FARs require that all Take-Off, Landing, Entering Class Bravo Airspace and Runway Crossing clearances are read back verbatim.
dcorman 10 months ago
@dcorman Look at the FAA issue "JO 7110.65T 2-4-3. Also knows as the "ATC handbook" It has everything you need to know.
landmark425 10 months ago
@landmark425 The FARs require that all Take-Off, Landing, Entering Class Bravo Airspace and Runway Crossing clearances are read back verbatim. It really is not optional.
dcorman 10 months ago
@landmark425 or to be more correct: The readback must include the clearance.
dcorman 10 months ago
Some of you are retarded - the controller doesn't give a shit what nationality the pilot is, they're in UNITED STATES AIR SPACE and are required to abide by FAA rules and standard US ATC phraseology - both were "arguing" but the pilot's ICAO terminology was incorrect, controller was in the right to clarify and correct him.
EstorilEm 1 year ago
@EstorilEm Actually the ICAO phrase is "Line Up and Wait." Finally, the FAA has changed the terminology to match the rest of the world.
roger0929 1 year ago
"Position and Hold" and "Hold Short" can be confused with poor radio quality and pilots with English as a second language.
This is why most pilots and controllers world wide prefer "Line up and Wait".
JetSimulation 1 year ago
We Americans make every other countries' pilots speak ENGLISH, and entire different language than they use. So I'm not going to complain about having to change a single sentence!!!
darcougar 1 year ago
Obviously the "SMART" Huhh, Americans are going to argue its position and hold but we in the UK say Line up and wait so fucking respect that!
Flyglobespan93 1 year ago
@Flyglobespan93 hes not in the UK
gIenr88 1 year ago
@gIenr88 yes, But the pilot is obviously from Europe where we say line up + wait.
Flyglobespan93 1 year ago
@Flyglobespan93 So is it alright if an American is in Europe and replies "position and hold" to a "line up and wait" instruction?
gIenr88 1 year ago
@gIenr88 It certainly is not OK, but most American Pilots that I know are aware of that and they use the proper terminology when using foreign airspace. Not out of courtesy, but because it is the law.
dcorman 11 months ago
@Flyglobespan93
The FAA changed it to line up and wait in September 2010. LUAW replaces TIPAH
historyman1942 1 year ago
What an American asshole, Why does it matter, Same definition stupid fuck
Flyglobespan93 1 year ago
ICAO RTF manual states clearly "Line up and wait". After readback and lining up, the pilot should say "Ready for departure" before he receives the T/O clearance. I'd rather say that Position and hold is ambiguous. But it's one among many differences between USA and the rest of the World... (like decimal and point, QNH and altimeter, inch and hPa etc)
kzmooo17 1 year ago
If any of you are flight simmers and are wanting to be apart of an AMAZING virtual airline, please message me!!
tylerbm1997 1 year ago
Position and hold: yes... Line up and wait: no... :)
OSBUK 1 year ago 4
Thank you to all of your comments! As an American 13 year old wanting to be a pilot, I favor Postion and Hold but like what rclcryan said, Position and Hold to is just a little to general but like I said I favor it because I am used to it being an American and thats what we say over here... Once again thank you for the comments and the amount of views!! Keep them coming!! :)
tylerbm1997 1 year ago
@tylerbm1997
Position and Hold I think is much better as well, but the FAA changed to Line-Up and Wait to comply with the rest of the world.
DVA5212 1 year ago
We use 'Line up and wait' here in the UK. And I recognise the picture at 00:33 as Cranfield Airport, EGTC!
mmarkk1990 1 year ago
Line up and wait is probably better for international fights. They're used to it. However, my beef with "line up and wait" is this: Line up I get okay, I line up on the runway, but "wait"? That could be construed as so much. Wait, wait for what? Wait for the departing aircraft? What for your signal? Wait for the aircraft on the runway? "wait" to me is too ambiguous.
rclcryan 1 year ago
sorry, but America doesn't have the biggest balls in the world. Let them adopt foreign policy's more and maybe people will hate us less
ASRBanshee 1 year ago
(Spelling/typographical "errors" intended) No offenSe intended to my friends and family across the pond, but over here it's "Position and hold" although I could see the huMOR in this clip, we have different phraseology and spelling on both sides of the pond, so please remember that.
w5pda 1 year ago
@w5pda As of October 1, it's Line Up and Wait here as well.
akhristov 1 year ago
@akhristov So that explains why KSFO traffic sounds so "strange" to me;-) Thanks for the response.
w5pda 1 year ago
LINE up and wait is the so shitty. The US airports will be using the line up and wait shit coming up soon. Whats easier to say "position and hold" or "line up and wait" Theres already enough that must be said, why add more?
nortonnfriends 1 year ago
@nortonnfriends Line Up and Wait actually has less syllables than Position and Hold. So it's actually less to say.
akhristov 1 year ago
JFK Tower wins...
CAY999Tyler 1 year ago 16