@job3831 Interesting viewpoint! Personally I think the absence of the term church is due to the fact that the only use of that term in the Book of Revelation concerns local churches. The world wide body of believers is designated in this book by the terms saints and brethren whether scattered or not.
The date you uploaded this video was a piviotal point for recent events in my life...so I am just now seeing this vid! Great work dear brother! If you can...please send new uploads as shared video...I seem to be missing my favorite friends vids with my new challenges!
@Jimvesterstallone so? his saints will be gone before the tribulation. Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us that WE WILL GO THROUGH IT. During the plagues, it ddnt harm the nation of israel. You know, i could give you a zillion examples of God protecting his Godly people...especially Noah... and Godly cities in Israel etc...
@ATORETA2 I'm sure Jimv has a something to say to you, but let me just say the Bible DOES say we will go through it. Both Jesus, Paul, Peter and John said so. Please check out my other video "Who Are The Tribulation Saints?" for more in-depth info. Yes, God protects His people, but not from persecution, trials and tribulations. Are you forgetting Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego IN the fiery furnace. They were there because they refused to worship the image. Does that ring a bell? Rev 13 perhaps?
@arovir the bible doesnt say that. They said we'll go through tribulations, [troubles] trials, etc.. God teaches us & refines us & tests us through these things. Its happening now, its happened since ages before!
Tribulation saints, bible says something like 'they washed their linen' ..they became clean.. through the great tribulation, they understood antichrist wasnt God, they rejected him..
God saves his people from the BIG BIG BIG BIG things, tribulation is for the others!
@ATORETA2 Rev 7:14 says of the great crowd of "every nation, tribe, people and language" (v.9): "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
They had been in the GT, but it wasn't the GT that had cleansed them. It was the blood of the Lamb! No difference between them - and you and me!!
You say "tribulation is for the others". Who are "the others"? Rev. says they are saints and brethren - like you and me!!
@ATORETA2 - You keep mentioning all the people God chose to rescue, but what about Jesus and Paul, and Peter, many of the OT prophets, and the martyred Christians down through the centuries? Are you going to ignore that God did not rescue them from intense persecution and violent deaths?
@MelodyOfVision What im sayin, is that as jesus said, there WILL BE PERSECUTION ETC. In MANY forms. it has happened before, it is happeneing now, and it will happen. Lalalalaalalalaaaaa.
BUT.. im talking about this 'great tribulation' , not any other time. If a country is going to war, they'd remove their 'ambassadors' or w.e, same with God, if there is a BIGGGG thing like that, he'll remove!.
Noah was NOT in the flood, he was kept safe. Others in the bible were 'translated' into heaven too.
@MelodyOfVision Noah did NOT go THROUGH the flood, he was protected.. in a.. SHIP. he did not SUFFER like the rest of the world - the people far from God!
Great point! I love the comparison you have made between the words 'church', 'brethren' and 'saints' in both Thessalonians and Revelation. One would be hard pressed to say brethren and saints in Paul's letters to the Thessalonians do not refer to the church. It doesn't make any more sense to do it to the Revelation. Amen!!
@boltingpuppies It's always a great pleasure to hear from you!
One verse I think cements the whole thing is what the apostle John writes in Rev 1:9 after he had received the vision of what is to befall the saints in the last days: "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation..." He doesn't distance himself from the brethren in the final tribulation. On the contrary, he totally identifies with them as they and he are of the same family, the true church of Jesus Christ on earth.
@josiahdallas well thanks for ur comment. I thought i had seen 'secret' but cant seem to find it. But why would God let us be under the antichrists rule? Thats crazy... God has always saved his people... He saved Noah...he saved Lot i think ..
Tribulation is just such a bad time, Gods wrath etc....the only 'saints' in the tribulation must be the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of israel
@ATORETA2 - The Great Tribulation isn't God's wrath - it's called the GT because of the persecution to come upon God's children by those who hate and oppose God. God had always allowed tribulation to occur among His children, so it is no surprise if we go through the biggest one. God's wrath is the Seven Bowls judgement (Rev 15:7, 16:1-21) which occurs afterward and that's aimed at His enemies.
God will get us through it though (John 16:33), so just stick close to Him, obeying and trusting Him.
@MelodyOfVision It is part of his wrath! he controls everything - people will be led astray worshipping the antichrists image. The true christians will EXPOSE his lies, there's no way that we will be here.
When we go, itl be a huge vaccum, and the antichrist will come with his false answers and create a peace plan etc...
@ATORETA2 - Where does it say that the Great Tribulation is God's wrath? And in regard to the antichrist:
Rev. 13:7 - It was given power to wage war against GOD'S HOLY PEOPLE and TO CONQUER THEM. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
The holy people mentioned isn't talking about the 144,000 (they're in chapter 14) - this is about the regular believers who will undergo the Great Tribulation. God will allow them to be conquered - in other words, persecuted!
@ATORETA2 - Jesus Christ plainly stated that we would have tribulation in this world (John 16:33 and Rev. 2:10). He also prayed to the Father that we would not be taken out of this world during tribulation but that we would be kept from evil (John 17:15). This is why it is so important to build a strong foundation and walk in Christ and why I keep pressing this point. That way you won't fear the persecution to come, not fall for the antichrist's deception and that is how you stay safe in Christ.
@ATORETA2 - I agree with you, Jesus DID NOT pray that we would be removed from the end time GT, but rather the opposite as He stated in John 17:15, that we NOT be taken out of the world.
Maybe you haven't been in Christ for very long, but God can actually be glorified when His people are persecuted. God's power, strength and love are most apparent when the odds are greatest against us, yet we remain strong in faith and obedient to Him.
@MelodyOfVision i have been in christ for very long. Ofcourse...all to Gods glory! But this is the g.t im talking about. We've always been hurt by satan's tools...but this is the G.T and we will NOT go through it. Its not designed for us.
@ATORETA2 I see you are quite adamant in your replies. What MelodyOfVision is clearly pointing out to you doesn't seem to get through to you. I'm telling you, the only way you will get to heaven before the great tribulation is if you die beforehand. You are hereby warned and have now no excuse not to prepare before the Antichrist appears on TV. Christ is not going to descend from heaven to take you to heaven before that time. Stop listening to those who tell you He will!
@arovir adamant? .. Its just what melodyofvision is saying, i dont agree with. It doesnt make sense.
This has happened before: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; & was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." -Hebrews 11:5. Not only its happened, but its spoken about happening again. The catching up is mentioned many times. BUT.. it is NOT mentioned in mid-trib or post-trib events. at all.
@ATORETA2 Heb 11:5 has absolutely nothing to do with the coming of Christ! Why don't you look at verses that mention the coming of Christ? The catching up (to the clouds to meet Christ) is not mentioned many times, it is only mentioned ONCE, in 1 Thess 4. There is nothing in this passge to make it pre-trib! If you care to investigate there are several post trib pointers in this passage. See my vid: When Will The Rapture Happen? Don't brush this off. Now you have the chance to learn something!
@arovir i put Heb 11:5 to show u an example of some1 being 'translated' before. Thats all. Yeah but its been spoken about in other parts of the bible. If rapture was after trib, wouldnt it say that after describing the tribulation? Ive seen all your videos, i like them. I just dont agree with your view on it.
Because u have kept the word of my patience, I also will keep u from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Revelation 3:10.
@ATORETA2 Rev 3:10 does not even mention Christ coming! We must not read into the text something that is not there. In Matt 24 Jesus describes His coming in the clouds POST-trib v.29-30 and mentions the elect being gathered then at the sound of a great trumpet v.31. Paul describes the exact same thing in the famous rapture passage in 1 Thess 4 - Christ descending from heaven, the elect being gathered to meet Him in the clouds at the sound of a trumpet. Same coming. Same trumpet. Same clouds...
@ATORETA2 Instead of me writing something short about this verse you quote from Luke 21 you can view a video of mine which explains it in detail: "Escaping in The Great Tribulation". The first half has to do with this verse, the other half explains Rev 3:10 which you have quoted before.
@arovir when the Church is removed, that God will again recognize the nation Israel in a special covenant relationship with Himself. During g.t a remnant out of Israel will repent & turn to their Messiah. They'll become witnesses (Rev 7:3-8) Rev 7:4: '& I heard the number of them which were sealed, & there were sealed an hundred & forty & four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 144,000 soulwinners. These are the preachers spoken of in Matthew 24:14. *NOT US* ..
@ATORETA2 The problem with the view you propose is that you leave out the saints and brethren in the tribulation. All evidence from the New Testament say they are the church (Jew and Gentile in Christ). Your view assumes the 144 000 Israelites are preachers. The text does not say that. Jesus in Matt 24 talks about the kingdom being preached. What did Paul do? He says this: "I went about preaching the kingdom" Acts 20:25. That & other scriptures blows your theory sky high! We'll be in the trib.
@arovir im not saying the 144,000 were preachers..im sayin they were the 'remant' that repented to their true saviour! .. they are the saints/brothers in the trib. When Jesus comes @ the Second Coming WITH His own, He is going 2 gather the nations of the earth together,separating the sheep from the goats (vs. 32) & 2Thess2:7- The mystery of lawlessness is already @ work. ONLY HE WHO NOW RESTRAINS IT WILL DO SO UNTILL HE IS OUT OF THE WAY. - thats the holy spirit in US the saints!
@ATORETA2 No, you wrote: "144,000 soulwinners. These are the preachers..."
There are more than 144 000 saints/brethren. What about: "a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation" Rev 7:9. "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation" v.14 where they had been v.13.
2 Thess 2:7 must not be isolated. Paul's argument is: Before Christ comes and our gathering to him v.1, the Antichrist must appear v.3. Before that the restrainer will no longer restrain the Antichrist.
@arovir so what i was trying to say below is when he comes NOT like a thief snatching us up, but coming WITH his own, he will seperate the unbelievers from the repented people who came out of the tribulation. & the second thing, i was trying to say that the Holy Spirit, the light of the world in us, who exposes lies, will continue, till we are out of the way, so the man of sin can be revealed & do his work!
@ATORETA2 You are forgetting Christ's words in Rev 16:15 AFTER the 6th vial: "Behold, I am coming like a thief" He's coming suddenly, unexpectedly to the world AFTER the great tribulation. Your reasoning is of no avail when you don't try to refute what I have pointed out about the post-trib Matt 24 coming being the same as the coming of Christ in 1 Thess 4 when the rapture (gathering to Christ) occurs. The similarities are striking. Paul knows this and makes NO effort to say it's not the same!
@arovir I havent 'forgotton' those words. He is coming like a thief, to the people in darkness. Somewhere else it says that it wont come to OUR surprise.. we await his return, others dont expect it. He's coming before the tribulation, it is Gods wrath & we're not entitled to it. In matthew 24:31 he's gathering the people who came to christ during tribulation. I will send you another seperate message and explain further..........
@ATORETA2 - Did you not notice that Christ's words in Rev 16:15 are directed to His own: "Blessed is he who stays awake..." They are still on earth in the tribulation at this point in time which is after the 6th vial. They are NOT subject to God's wrath, only those who receive the mark. You talk about people who come to Christ *during* the tribulation in Matt 24. The text doesn't say that. That's something you are merely assuming because of your pre-conceived idea. No going to heaven beforehand.
@arovir Yeah, blesses r those who stay awake. Who r on watch. Who r ready. Awake & ready for the 'marriage of the bride' .. Im not 'assuming' .. i dont 'assume' things i actually read in the bible about the 144,000 who are 'sealed' ..
I've sent you 2 messages to your Youtube Inbox... ... hope you read them in your own time.
@ATORETA2 - You just keep saying that we're not going though the GT without really backing that claim with Scripture. I keep pressing the point because your false belief can hurt you should you go through the Great Tribulation. Can you handle going through it if happens in our generation?
@ATORETA2 "..He opened the 6th seal..there was a great earthquake..sun became black..moon became like blood..stars of heaven fell..sky receded..every mountain & island was moved..kings of the earth..great men..rich men..commanders..mighty men,every slave&every free man hid themselves in..caves..rocks of the mountains, &said to the mountains &rocks,'Fall on us &hide us from the FACE of Him who sits on the throne &from the WRATH of the Lamb!For the great DAY OF HIS WRATH has come...'"-Rev 6:12-17.
"Behold, the DAY OF the LORD comes, cruel, with both WRATH and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate; and He will destroy its sinners from it." - Isaiah 13:9.
@Jimvesterstallone Yes! Rev 19:15 bears this out. Concerning the Rider on the white horse descending from heaven posttrib, we read: "He treads the wine press of the fierce WRATH of God". It's the same scene as Rev 6 - "the great DAY of His WRATH". This tells me the seals are a broad overview of the end time. The chapters following go over it again. Eg. Rev 6:14 "every mountain and island were moved out of their places" = Rev 16:20 "every island fled away, and the mountains were not found".
@ATORETA2 Jesus mentioned Noah in Matt 24:38 after His coming - POST-trib v.29-30. He said in v.39 His coming will be like the flood in Noah's time. Noah is likened to those in the end time who will be rescued from Judgment at the coming of Christ post trib. Jesus says the same in Luke 17 and mentions Lot too. In v.29-30 He likens the day Lot went out of Sodom with the day He is "REVEALED". He will be revealed POST-trib when He comes in fire, Is 66:15-16. It's then we given rest 2 Thess 1:7-9.
@arovir He mentioned his coming will be 'like the days of noah' , not like the flood. The days of noah.. people ddnt believe him..they were sinning marrying partying etc THEN destruction came upon them, suddenly, but noah was kept safe.
Also in the bible it says 'when people are saying Peace! & Security!, sudden destruction will come upon them like a woman who is in labour...' We saints will expose the antichrist!
@ATORETA2 Let's not loose sight of the context of Christ's words about His coming in connection with the mention of Noah in Matt 24. He had just been talking about His coming which He emphasized will be posttrib, v.29-30. The destruction to come will befall the ungodly when Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2 Thess 1:6ff. As for people SAYING peace... This is so like Jer 6:14 about false prophets: "SAYING, 'Peace, peace,' But there is no peace." False hope of a better future!
@ATORETA2 - You're also siting Noah as an example, but if you notice, Noah wasn't taken out of the world - he went through the flood. But do you see how he got through it? He stuck close to God, obeyed His every instruction and command, and trusted Him completely. This is how we can get through the Great Tribulation as well. Also, if God chooses a violent death for some - He gives grace to them to face it just as He did for His Son, Jesus, and all that belong to Him like Paul, Peter, etc.
Great video! I used to believe in pre-trib a few years ago when I read the left behind series and watched the movie and also the mainstream church teaches it but when I read the Bible for myself I was't able to make sense of that doctrine at all. I believe the bible teaches that there is one second coming of Christ. No mention of a flyby, secret rapture 7 years before. Don't get me wrong, if pre-trib is right then hey I'm all for it. I would love to go to be with Jesus. But its just not Biblical
@josiahdallas I totally agree! Who wouldn't want to fly away to heaven before the worst hits!
I too used to believe in pre-trib (that was a couple of decades ago). Since then, the more I read the Bible, the clearer I see that the pre-trib idea is pure fantasy. It's an attempt to make the Bible say what we want to hear. What lies behind the idea is a mere assumption of us not being here in the last days. Deep Bible study shows this to be a faulty fabrication.
@arovir I'm just afraid pre-trib might be a trick of the devil.......Lord don't let that be blasphemy......But if it is a trick, it would be one of the best tricks ever played on mankind. The Word says "many shall depart from the faith"....I'm afraid when all the pre-trib believers are thrust into the tribulation they will lose their faith and in order to remain safe they will take the mark of the beast......Lets do all we can my brother. Thank you for your work in the name of the one true God!
@josiahdallas I believe the pretrib notion is the single greatest end-time deception that has been concocted. There are many important aspects of the end time, but the most fundamental one is - can we expect to be here when it all happens or not. If you are interested I have a video called "A Last Days Doctrine Satan Promotes". I look into five reasons why Satan would back the pretrib idea. The time is approaching. May many more wake up before the time arrives.
@ATORETA2 In Rev 16:15 after the 6th vial Jesus says: "Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake". How can that be pre-trib? In secret? Paul writes in 1 Thess 5: "the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night... But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief." His coming will not be in secret, but it will a surprise for the world and those not watching! Those ready will be raptured to meet Him as He comes post-trib.
@arovir but why would God allow his people to go through the worst time? The Bible also says 'when people are saying there is Peace & Security, sudden destruction will come upon them...'
Bible always talks about the fact that Jesus will come for us.....and again he will come to the world WITH us [saints] 'thousands of thousands' ... to defeat the antichrist etc
Would God REALLY put us through tribulation? .. Bible doesnt teach we'll go through the tribulation.
They killed the Master, we are not greater than Him:
Mat 10:24-25 “A taught one is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master.
“It is enough for the taught one to become like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beʽelzebul, how much more those of his household!
Rev 12:11 “And they overcame him because of the Blood of the Lamb, and because of the Word of their witness, and they did not love their lives TO THE DEATH.
@faxchase Yes! And in Matt 10:22 Jesus said: "You will be HATED BY ALL because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to THE END who will be saved." -v.24f- Then in v.26 He says: "do not fear them". And again in v.28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul". The context is ENDTIME, v.23 mentions the COMING of Jesus.
Those referred to as "they" in Rev 12:11 are the "brethren" in v.10. Paul uses the word "brethren" 130 times. John uses it 7 times in 1,2,3 John.
@ATORETA2 Jesus said to His disciples (that means us): "In the world ye SHALL HAVE TRIBULATION." John 16:33. Whether it's small or great, it's still tribulation. Whether a long time before He comes or a short time before He comes. Study the great persecutions the true church has gone through the last 2000 years. Millions have been murdered. We cannot say the brethren and the saints in the final trib are not the church!
Christ will gather His own from heaven and earth when He comes post-trib.
@ATORETA2 It doesn't say "secret".....coming like a thief only refers to the timing of His return because people will not realize all the signs that are taking place as they are "asleep" figuratively.
GREAT point! Why do we assume that in the book of Revelation the church is gone after the word "church" is no longer used, but we are not consistent in assuming the same thing is true with other letters? In a word?...brainwashing. We've been told the same lie enough times to where we accept it without ever stopping to think.
Thank you, as always, for making us stop and think!!!
@Jimvesterstallone Yes, that was the point of the video - to make people stop and think! And *you* made *me* stop and think when you made that great video of yours about... how to read a letter! :D
the END TIMES Church will be the LARGEST BODY in HISTORY... do you know why? because 90+% is being left behind... HE is coming for a pure Church, a Church without ... the remnant is so very tiny... soon enough it will be undeniable.. Ephesians 5:27 27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
@merochero In Revelation 19 when Christ comes we read: "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready. It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." Here we see the bride of Christ identified as the saints. To be consistent, the same saints mentioned in chapter 5, 8, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 & 18. Do you understand what that means? :)
A church is a group. A saint is an individual. Absence of the term church may be due to the apostasy, persecution, and scattering of the saints.
job3831 1 month ago
@job3831 Interesting viewpoint! Personally I think the absence of the term church is due to the fact that the only use of that term in the Book of Revelation concerns local churches. The world wide body of believers is designated in this book by the terms saints and brethren whether scattered or not.
arovir 1 month ago
The date you uploaded this video was a piviotal point for recent events in my life...so I am just now seeing this vid! Great work dear brother! If you can...please send new uploads as shared video...I seem to be missing my favorite friends vids with my new challenges!
God Bless you! (Gud velsigne deg!)
InHISWord2 1 year ago
@InHISWord2 Thank you and God bless you too, my sister. I'll try to remember your request... next time. :)
arovir 1 year ago
again good points... blessings, brother...
feba2 1 year ago
@feba2 Blessings to you too, sister!
arovir 1 year ago
Most excellent as usual!
Enjoyed it.
God bless! :)
vudumojo 1 year ago
@vudumojo That was nice to hear! God bless you too! :)
arovir 1 year ago
@Jimvesterstallone so? his saints will be gone before the tribulation. Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us that WE WILL GO THROUGH IT. During the plagues, it ddnt harm the nation of israel. You know, i could give you a zillion examples of God protecting his Godly people...especially Noah... and Godly cities in Israel etc...
But he has cursed the bad
we wont go through it! We'll be raptured up !
ATORETA2 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 I'm sure Jimv has a something to say to you, but let me just say the Bible DOES say we will go through it. Both Jesus, Paul, Peter and John said so. Please check out my other video "Who Are The Tribulation Saints?" for more in-depth info. Yes, God protects His people, but not from persecution, trials and tribulations. Are you forgetting Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego IN the fiery furnace. They were there because they refused to worship the image. Does that ring a bell? Rev 13 perhaps?
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir the bible doesnt say that. They said we'll go through tribulations, [troubles] trials, etc.. God teaches us & refines us & tests us through these things. Its happening now, its happened since ages before!
Tribulation saints, bible says something like 'they washed their linen' ..they became clean.. through the great tribulation, they understood antichrist wasnt God, they rejected him..
God saves his people from the BIG BIG BIG BIG things, tribulation is for the others!
ATORETA2 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 Rev 7:14 says of the great crowd of "every nation, tribe, people and language" (v.9): "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
They had been in the GT, but it wasn't the GT that had cleansed them. It was the blood of the Lamb! No difference between them - and you and me!!
You say "tribulation is for the others". Who are "the others"? Rev. says they are saints and brethren - like you and me!!
arovir 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 - You keep mentioning all the people God chose to rescue, but what about Jesus and Paul, and Peter, many of the OT prophets, and the martyred Christians down through the centuries? Are you going to ignore that God did not rescue them from intense persecution and violent deaths?
MelodyOfVision 1 year ago
@MelodyOfVision What im sayin, is that as jesus said, there WILL BE PERSECUTION ETC. In MANY forms. it has happened before, it is happeneing now, and it will happen. Lalalalaalalalaaaaa.
BUT.. im talking about this 'great tribulation' , not any other time. If a country is going to war, they'd remove their 'ambassadors' or w.e, same with God, if there is a BIGGGG thing like that, he'll remove!.
Noah was NOT in the flood, he was kept safe. Others in the bible were 'translated' into heaven too.
ATORETA2 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 - Which Bible are you reading from? Noah went through the flood. He was not taken out of the world when the flood hit.
MelodyOfVision 1 year ago
@MelodyOfVision Noah did NOT go THROUGH the flood, he was protected.. in a.. SHIP. he did not SUFFER like the rest of the world - the people far from God!
ATORETA2 1 year ago
Great point! I love the comparison you have made between the words 'church', 'brethren' and 'saints' in both Thessalonians and Revelation. One would be hard pressed to say brethren and saints in Paul's letters to the Thessalonians do not refer to the church. It doesn't make any more sense to do it to the Revelation. Amen!!
boltingpuppies 1 year ago
@boltingpuppies It's always a great pleasure to hear from you!
One verse I think cements the whole thing is what the apostle John writes in Rev 1:9 after he had received the vision of what is to befall the saints in the last days: "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation..." He doesn't distance himself from the brethren in the final tribulation. On the contrary, he totally identifies with them as they and he are of the same family, the true church of Jesus Christ on earth.
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir Great verse from John in the Revelation. Makes me think of something else.
boltingpuppies 1 year ago
@boltingpuppies What's that?? What's that?? Now you've got me excited... ;)
arovir 1 year ago
Very well said! Very simple to understand! Keep teaching last day truth! You do it soooo well! :) Elizabeth
Lachance8 1 year ago
@Lachance8 You always spur me on with your very encouraging words! :) Blessings to you!
(There wouldn't be half as many videos without you there, I'm sure!!) lol!
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir Lol. Thank you for your kind words! :)
Lachance8 1 year ago
@josiahdallas well thanks for ur comment. I thought i had seen 'secret' but cant seem to find it. But why would God let us be under the antichrists rule? Thats crazy... God has always saved his people... He saved Noah...he saved Lot i think ..
Tribulation is just such a bad time, Gods wrath etc....the only 'saints' in the tribulation must be the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of israel
ATORETA2 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 - The Great Tribulation isn't God's wrath - it's called the GT because of the persecution to come upon God's children by those who hate and oppose God. God had always allowed tribulation to occur among His children, so it is no surprise if we go through the biggest one. God's wrath is the Seven Bowls judgement (Rev 15:7, 16:1-21) which occurs afterward and that's aimed at His enemies.
God will get us through it though (John 16:33), so just stick close to Him, obeying and trusting Him.
MelodyOfVision 1 year ago
@MelodyOfVision It is part of his wrath! he controls everything - people will be led astray worshipping the antichrists image. The true christians will EXPOSE his lies, there's no way that we will be here.
When we go, itl be a huge vaccum, and the antichrist will come with his false answers and create a peace plan etc...
ATORETA2 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 - Where does it say that the Great Tribulation is God's wrath? And in regard to the antichrist:
Rev. 13:7 - It was given power to wage war against GOD'S HOLY PEOPLE and TO CONQUER THEM. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
The holy people mentioned isn't talking about the 144,000 (they're in chapter 14) - this is about the regular believers who will undergo the Great Tribulation. God will allow them to be conquered - in other words, persecuted!
MelodyOfVision 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 - Jesus Christ plainly stated that we would have tribulation in this world (John 16:33 and Rev. 2:10). He also prayed to the Father that we would not be taken out of this world during tribulation but that we would be kept from evil (John 17:15). This is why it is so important to build a strong foundation and walk in Christ and why I keep pressing this point. That way you won't fear the persecution to come, not fall for the antichrist's deception and that is how you stay safe in Christ.
MelodyOfVision 1 year ago
@MelodyOfVision Amen! Thank you for contributing with discerning words and wise council. Bless you!
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir - Oh hey, thanks! God bless you!
MelodyOfVision 1 year ago
@MelodyOfVision he did not prayy that we would be alll removed from the end time great tribulation!
ATORETA2 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 - I agree with you, Jesus DID NOT pray that we would be removed from the end time GT, but rather the opposite as He stated in John 17:15, that we NOT be taken out of the world.
Maybe you haven't been in Christ for very long, but God can actually be glorified when His people are persecuted. God's power, strength and love are most apparent when the odds are greatest against us, yet we remain strong in faith and obedient to Him.
MelodyOfVision 1 year ago
@MelodyOfVision i have been in christ for very long. Ofcourse...all to Gods glory! But this is the g.t im talking about. We've always been hurt by satan's tools...but this is the G.T and we will NOT go through it. Its not designed for us.
ATORETA2 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 I see you are quite adamant in your replies. What MelodyOfVision is clearly pointing out to you doesn't seem to get through to you. I'm telling you, the only way you will get to heaven before the great tribulation is if you die beforehand. You are hereby warned and have now no excuse not to prepare before the Antichrist appears on TV. Christ is not going to descend from heaven to take you to heaven before that time. Stop listening to those who tell you He will!
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir adamant? .. Its just what melodyofvision is saying, i dont agree with. It doesnt make sense.
This has happened before: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; & was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." -Hebrews 11:5. Not only its happened, but its spoken about happening again. The catching up is mentioned many times. BUT.. it is NOT mentioned in mid-trib or post-trib events. at all.
ATORETA2 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 Heb 11:5 has absolutely nothing to do with the coming of Christ! Why don't you look at verses that mention the coming of Christ? The catching up (to the clouds to meet Christ) is not mentioned many times, it is only mentioned ONCE, in 1 Thess 4. There is nothing in this passge to make it pre-trib! If you care to investigate there are several post trib pointers in this passage. See my vid: When Will The Rapture Happen? Don't brush this off. Now you have the chance to learn something!
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir i put Heb 11:5 to show u an example of some1 being 'translated' before. Thats all. Yeah but its been spoken about in other parts of the bible. If rapture was after trib, wouldnt it say that after describing the tribulation? Ive seen all your videos, i like them. I just dont agree with your view on it.
Because u have kept the word of my patience, I also will keep u from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Revelation 3:10.
ATORETA2 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 Rev 3:10 does not even mention Christ coming! We must not read into the text something that is not there. In Matt 24 Jesus describes His coming in the clouds POST-trib v.29-30 and mentions the elect being gathered then at the sound of a great trumpet v.31. Paul describes the exact same thing in the famous rapture passage in 1 Thess 4 - Christ descending from heaven, the elect being gathered to meet Him in the clouds at the sound of a trumpet. Same coming. Same trumpet. Same clouds...
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir Why does the bible say, pray always that you may be counted WORTHY to escape all these things that come to pass!?
ATORETA2 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 Instead of me writing something short about this verse you quote from Luke 21 you can view a video of mine which explains it in detail: "Escaping in The Great Tribulation". The first half has to do with this verse, the other half explains Rev 3:10 which you have quoted before.
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir when the Church is removed, that God will again recognize the nation Israel in a special covenant relationship with Himself. During g.t a remnant out of Israel will repent & turn to their Messiah. They'll become witnesses (Rev 7:3-8) Rev 7:4: '& I heard the number of them which were sealed, & there were sealed an hundred & forty & four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 144,000 soulwinners. These are the preachers spoken of in Matthew 24:14. *NOT US* ..
ATORETA2 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 The problem with the view you propose is that you leave out the saints and brethren in the tribulation. All evidence from the New Testament say they are the church (Jew and Gentile in Christ). Your view assumes the 144 000 Israelites are preachers. The text does not say that. Jesus in Matt 24 talks about the kingdom being preached. What did Paul do? He says this: "I went about preaching the kingdom" Acts 20:25. That & other scriptures blows your theory sky high! We'll be in the trib.
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir im not saying the 144,000 were preachers..im sayin they were the 'remant' that repented to their true saviour! .. they are the saints/brothers in the trib. When Jesus comes @ the Second Coming WITH His own, He is going 2 gather the nations of the earth together,separating the sheep from the goats (vs. 32) & 2Thess2:7- The mystery of lawlessness is already @ work. ONLY HE WHO NOW RESTRAINS IT WILL DO SO UNTILL HE IS OUT OF THE WAY. - thats the holy spirit in US the saints!
ATORETA2 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 No, you wrote: "144,000 soulwinners. These are the preachers..."
There are more than 144 000 saints/brethren. What about: "a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation" Rev 7:9. "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation" v.14 where they had been v.13.
2 Thess 2:7 must not be isolated. Paul's argument is: Before Christ comes and our gathering to him v.1, the Antichrist must appear v.3. Before that the restrainer will no longer restrain the Antichrist.
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir so what i was trying to say below is when he comes NOT like a thief snatching us up, but coming WITH his own, he will seperate the unbelievers from the repented people who came out of the tribulation. & the second thing, i was trying to say that the Holy Spirit, the light of the world in us, who exposes lies, will continue, till we are out of the way, so the man of sin can be revealed & do his work!
ATORETA2 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 You are forgetting Christ's words in Rev 16:15 AFTER the 6th vial: "Behold, I am coming like a thief" He's coming suddenly, unexpectedly to the world AFTER the great tribulation. Your reasoning is of no avail when you don't try to refute what I have pointed out about the post-trib Matt 24 coming being the same as the coming of Christ in 1 Thess 4 when the rapture (gathering to Christ) occurs. The similarities are striking. Paul knows this and makes NO effort to say it's not the same!
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir I havent 'forgotton' those words. He is coming like a thief, to the people in darkness. Somewhere else it says that it wont come to OUR surprise.. we await his return, others dont expect it. He's coming before the tribulation, it is Gods wrath & we're not entitled to it. In matthew 24:31 he's gathering the people who came to christ during tribulation. I will send you another seperate message and explain further..........
ATORETA2 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 - Did you not notice that Christ's words in Rev 16:15 are directed to His own: "Blessed is he who stays awake..." They are still on earth in the tribulation at this point in time which is after the 6th vial. They are NOT subject to God's wrath, only those who receive the mark. You talk about people who come to Christ *during* the tribulation in Matt 24. The text doesn't say that. That's something you are merely assuming because of your pre-conceived idea. No going to heaven beforehand.
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir Yeah, blesses r those who stay awake. Who r on watch. Who r ready. Awake & ready for the 'marriage of the bride' .. Im not 'assuming' .. i dont 'assume' things i actually read in the bible about the 144,000 who are 'sealed' ..
I've sent you 2 messages to your Youtube Inbox... ... hope you read them in your own time.
ATORETA2 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 - You just keep saying that we're not going though the GT without really backing that claim with Scripture. I keep pressing the point because your false belief can hurt you should you go through the Great Tribulation. Can you handle going through it if happens in our generation?
MelodyOfVision 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 "..He opened the 6th seal..there was a great earthquake..sun became black..moon became like blood..stars of heaven fell..sky receded..every mountain & island was moved..kings of the earth..great men..rich men..commanders..mighty men,every slave&every free man hid themselves in..caves..rocks of the mountains, &said to the mountains &rocks,'Fall on us &hide us from the FACE of Him who sits on the throne &from the WRATH of the Lamb!For the great DAY OF HIS WRATH has come...'"-Rev 6:12-17.
Jimvesterstallone 1 year ago
His wrath is poured out the day He comes.
"Behold, the DAY OF the LORD comes, cruel, with both WRATH and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate; and He will destroy its sinners from it." - Isaiah 13:9.
Bless you.
Jimvesterstallone 1 year ago
@Jimvesterstallone Yes! Rev 19:15 bears this out. Concerning the Rider on the white horse descending from heaven posttrib, we read: "He treads the wine press of the fierce WRATH of God". It's the same scene as Rev 6 - "the great DAY of His WRATH". This tells me the seals are a broad overview of the end time. The chapters following go over it again. Eg. Rev 6:14 "every mountain and island were moved out of their places" = Rev 16:20 "every island fled away, and the mountains were not found".
arovir 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 Jesus mentioned Noah in Matt 24:38 after His coming - POST-trib v.29-30. He said in v.39 His coming will be like the flood in Noah's time. Noah is likened to those in the end time who will be rescued from Judgment at the coming of Christ post trib. Jesus says the same in Luke 17 and mentions Lot too. In v.29-30 He likens the day Lot went out of Sodom with the day He is "REVEALED". He will be revealed POST-trib when He comes in fire, Is 66:15-16. It's then we given rest 2 Thess 1:7-9.
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir He mentioned his coming will be 'like the days of noah' , not like the flood. The days of noah.. people ddnt believe him..they were sinning marrying partying etc THEN destruction came upon them, suddenly, but noah was kept safe.
Also in the bible it says 'when people are saying Peace! & Security!, sudden destruction will come upon them like a woman who is in labour...' We saints will expose the antichrist!
ATORETA2 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 Let's not loose sight of the context of Christ's words about His coming in connection with the mention of Noah in Matt 24. He had just been talking about His coming which He emphasized will be posttrib, v.29-30. The destruction to come will befall the ungodly when Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2 Thess 1:6ff. As for people SAYING peace... This is so like Jer 6:14 about false prophets: "SAYING, 'Peace, peace,' But there is no peace." False hope of a better future!
arovir 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 - You're also siting Noah as an example, but if you notice, Noah wasn't taken out of the world - he went through the flood. But do you see how he got through it? He stuck close to God, obeyed His every instruction and command, and trusted Him completely. This is how we can get through the Great Tribulation as well. Also, if God chooses a violent death for some - He gives grace to them to face it just as He did for His Son, Jesus, and all that belong to Him like Paul, Peter, etc.
MelodyOfVision 1 year ago
Great video! I used to believe in pre-trib a few years ago when I read the left behind series and watched the movie and also the mainstream church teaches it but when I read the Bible for myself I was't able to make sense of that doctrine at all. I believe the bible teaches that there is one second coming of Christ. No mention of a flyby, secret rapture 7 years before. Don't get me wrong, if pre-trib is right then hey I'm all for it. I would love to go to be with Jesus. But its just not Biblical
josiahdallas 1 year ago
@josiahdallas I totally agree! Who wouldn't want to fly away to heaven before the worst hits!
I too used to believe in pre-trib (that was a couple of decades ago). Since then, the more I read the Bible, the clearer I see that the pre-trib idea is pure fantasy. It's an attempt to make the Bible say what we want to hear. What lies behind the idea is a mere assumption of us not being here in the last days. Deep Bible study shows this to be a faulty fabrication.
Glad you have seen the light too! :)
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir I'm just afraid pre-trib might be a trick of the devil.......Lord don't let that be blasphemy......But if it is a trick, it would be one of the best tricks ever played on mankind. The Word says "many shall depart from the faith"....I'm afraid when all the pre-trib believers are thrust into the tribulation they will lose their faith and in order to remain safe they will take the mark of the beast......Lets do all we can my brother. Thank you for your work in the name of the one true God!
josiahdallas 1 year ago
@josiahdallas I believe the pretrib notion is the single greatest end-time deception that has been concocted. There are many important aspects of the end time, but the most fundamental one is - can we expect to be here when it all happens or not. If you are interested I have a video called "A Last Days Doctrine Satan Promotes". I look into five reasons why Satan would back the pretrib idea. The time is approaching. May many more wake up before the time arrives.
Thank you for your encouragement!
arovir 1 year ago
Nice work as usual, I'll be sure to favorite.
Pjaynes781 1 year ago
@Pjaynes781 That was encouraging to hear! :)
arovir 1 year ago
if there is 'no rapture' then why did Jesus say he would come as a 'thief' in secret, 2 will be in bed, he'll take one, and the other left .. etc?
And in other bits of the bible it says that he will come in glory and power and every eye will see him.... 2 different times.
ATORETA2 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 In Rev 16:15 after the 6th vial Jesus says: "Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake". How can that be pre-trib? In secret? Paul writes in 1 Thess 5: "the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night... But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief." His coming will not be in secret, but it will a surprise for the world and those not watching! Those ready will be raptured to meet Him as He comes post-trib.
arovir 1 year ago 5
@arovir but why would God allow his people to go through the worst time? The Bible also says 'when people are saying there is Peace & Security, sudden destruction will come upon them...'
Bible always talks about the fact that Jesus will come for us.....and again he will come to the world WITH us [saints] 'thousands of thousands' ... to defeat the antichrist etc
Would God REALLY put us through tribulation? .. Bible doesnt teach we'll go through the tribulation.
ATORETA2 1 year ago
@ATORETA2
They killed the Master, we are not greater than Him:
Mat 10:24-25 “A taught one is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master.
“It is enough for the taught one to become like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beʽelzebul, how much more those of his household!
Rev 12:11 “And they overcame him because of the Blood of the Lamb, and because of the Word of their witness, and they did not love their lives TO THE DEATH.
faxchase 1 year ago
@faxchase Yes! And in Matt 10:22 Jesus said: "You will be HATED BY ALL because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to THE END who will be saved." -v.24f- Then in v.26 He says: "do not fear them". And again in v.28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul". The context is ENDTIME, v.23 mentions the COMING of Jesus.
Those referred to as "they" in Rev 12:11 are the "brethren" in v.10. Paul uses the word "brethren" 130 times. John uses it 7 times in 1,2,3 John.
arovir 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 Jesus said to His disciples (that means us): "In the world ye SHALL HAVE TRIBULATION." John 16:33. Whether it's small or great, it's still tribulation. Whether a long time before He comes or a short time before He comes. Study the great persecutions the true church has gone through the last 2000 years. Millions have been murdered. We cannot say the brethren and the saints in the final trib are not the church!
Christ will gather His own from heaven and earth when He comes post-trib.
arovir 1 year ago
@ATORETA2 It doesn't say "secret".....coming like a thief only refers to the timing of His return because people will not realize all the signs that are taking place as they are "asleep" figuratively.
josiahdallas 1 year ago
What a nice surprise seeing your new video! Excellent point! God bless you always!!
Rileyportbay 1 year ago
@Rileyportbay What you say refreshes me. Thank you!
arovir 1 year ago
@eddienickels1 lol! In case you are wondering. Sugar spin is the same as cotton candy where you live!!
arovir 1 year ago
Great analysis!! As always!
tjrod672 1 year ago
@tjrod672 Thanks! Much appreciated.
arovir 1 year ago
@eddienickels1 Maybe it'll be a sugar spin. lol!! ...a sticky mess.
arovir 1 year ago
GREAT point! Why do we assume that in the book of Revelation the church is gone after the word "church" is no longer used, but we are not consistent in assuming the same thing is true with other letters? In a word?...brainwashing. We've been told the same lie enough times to where we accept it without ever stopping to think.
Thank you, as always, for making us stop and think!!!
Jimvesterstallone 1 year ago
@Jimvesterstallone Yes, that was the point of the video - to make people stop and think! And *you* made *me* stop and think when you made that great video of yours about... how to read a letter! :D
Thank you so much for being my inspiration!!
arovir 1 year ago
the END TIMES Church will be the LARGEST BODY in HISTORY... do you know why? because 90+% is being left behind... HE is coming for a pure Church, a Church without ... the remnant is so very tiny... soon enough it will be undeniable.. Ephesians 5:27 27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
merochero 1 year ago
@merochero In Revelation 19 when Christ comes we read: "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready. It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." Here we see the bride of Christ identified as the saints. To be consistent, the same saints mentioned in chapter 5, 8, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 & 18. Do you understand what that means? :)
arovir 1 year ago