Salvation and Water Baptism (Apostolics vs Trinitarians 1/5)

[domokunroxj00]

Both sides of this argument have some truth and some falsehood. Problem is that neither take in complete truth.

Obedience is NOT a work. Especially when it comes to baptism by water.

Grace requires a response. That response is to CONSENT to a life of faith and obedience to the best of your ability. You are justified by faith, not grace.

The speaking in tongues thing though, is nonsense. Just drop the false act already.

[filoIII]

Baptismal regenerists make the mistake of thinking every time the word baptize appears it refers to being dunked in H2O. Not so. LK 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire---Keep this in mind.

[albertplaysguitar]

@filoIII yeah that's an interesting verse... the context makes it clear that the baptism of fire refers to judgment! Charismatics tend to make it synonymous with the Holy Ghost baptism, when in reality it's either one or the other. The language is very much in line with OT prophecy, and Jesus refers to it numerous times, the wheat and the chaff, etc, referring to the end of times... but you're absolutely right, it's not always about H2O.

[djvdiddy]

@albertplaysguitar: that last paragraph u wrote; I REALLY couldn't have said it better myself. God is the one who choose, not man! Boy am I grateful he chose me!!! God bless!

[albertplaysguitar]

Are you saved when you get the Holy Ghost, or when you're baptized? They don't always happen at the same time, neatly in the baptismal pool. If I have the H.G. (i.e. speak in tongues) and I don't make it to the baptismal pool, God just sent me to hell though I have His Spirit, or let me into heaven unbaptized. If I get baptized, but don't speak in tongues and die, will God let me into heaven without His Spirit? Or will He send me to hell having obediently been baptized? Consistency impossible!

[rossdaboss1959]

@albertplaysguitar I would hope that he would let u in, but i'm not God. That's why i believe in just doing it the same way they did it. We talking about eternity here. Are u willing to take the chance on what if? It's up to each person. I'm not greater than anybody, i just wanted to do it just like they did it. It's better to have it, and not need it, than to not have it, and need it. Five foolish virgins, didn't have any oil, and they were left. Pray! Pray! Pray!

[albertplaysguitar]

That's the problem though, you believe in DOING something. I'm not criticizing, but the more I read the Word, walk with God, grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ, the more I realize God chose me, I didn't choose Him. He is sovereign and those whom He called, He also justified, sanctified, and glorified. I am His workmanship, He is the author of Salvation, Christ died for me while I was yet a sinner, Jesus prayed for those whom the Father had given Him, shall I go on?

[musicmusing]

@albertplaysguitar couldn't have said it better. the focus must all be on Christ for our salvation. as soon as you put the focus on us, what we must do, you go astray. I love trusting in what he did, it is so much more assuring instead of looking to myself,o.k. first i will follow acts 2'38, then clean myself up, pay my tithes, go to church 5 times a week, it never ends. you can never make yourself anymore righteous than the day you knelt at the cross and His blood is applied to you.

[rossdaboss1959]

Job 13:6-10, Will ye accept his PERSON? not PERSONS! Isaiah 40:25, 41:4, 43:3-15, 44:6-8, 24. 45:5-7, 12-19, 21-22. 46:5-10. Matthew 1:23. St John 1:1-14, Ephesians 4:6, Colossians 2:9, 1 Timothy 3:16 1 John 5:20, I just don't see how anybody can go along with the trinity after reading these scriptures. No where does it state anything about three persons in one. God is not playing with people bringing forth false doctrine, spreading him into threes. 3 manifestations, but one PERSON or SPIRIT

[albertplaysguitar]

@rossdaboss1959, God is not playing with people, but he does progressively reveal himself. Take eschatology for example. The OT talks about a messiah that reigns gloriously and a messiah that suffers and dies. Jews certainly didn't understand that there would be two advents as a result of their rejection of the Messiah. As a nation they won't even recognize it until the Tribulation. In the meantime, a large part of Christianity doesn't even believe in the Trib, the rapture, etc. Go figure.

[rossdaboss1959]

@albertplaysguitar There's nothing to figure. I already know that! I believe in a pre trib rapture of the church. I know the church hasn't taking the place of Israel. I know Jesus is soon to come for his spirit filled church.

[albertplaysguitar]

@rossdaboss1959, I was just using that as an example of progressive revelation--Things in the Bible that only make sense in the long run as God chooses to reveal. If you're pre-trib, believe in literal interpretation, etc. it's because you've made the choice to be very discerning and specific, mindful and logical (not in the human sense but in the Spiritually guided sense, God is not an author of confusion or mysticism) about the Word. Why not do the same with baptism and soteriology!?

[rossdaboss1959]

Is he really a doctor. There's a work of righteousness and there's a work of faith. The works of righteousness is one thing and the work of faith is another. Titus 3:5, James 2:14-26. Just do it the way it was done on Pentecost. What's so hard about it. If noah had faith, but didn't respond with works, we wouldn't be here. Even Stevie wonder can see that. Acts 2:38 is still God's plan of salvation.

[CherylK07]

His (Jesus)children will know HIS voice. those who truly seek Jesus will truly find Him and will not deny His Word or Hid Salvation plan

[Brotherfireball1988]

John 3:1-5 unless one is born of water and spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God

[musicmusing]

if a guy was on a desert island reading the scripture he would never in a million years come up with the upc doctrines. he would trust Christ died for him, and he was justified by faith. He would probably be baptised, yet I doubt he would come up with oneness or speak in tongues. though even if he did, he wouldn't say, oh, FINALLY, now I am saved because I spoke in tongues. no

[rossdaboss1959]

@musicmusing On judgment day, God is not trying to hear all these what if's. U are not in a desert. What will be your excuse? No excuses for not obeying God's word. Can u repent now? Can u be baptized in Jesus name now? Can u receive the Holy Ghost now ? U should only worry about your situation with God. Maybe that person will have a chance, but what about u that had the water and the time to be baptized, but u refused to. Acts 2:38 is still God's plan of salvation.

[musicmusing]

@rossdaboss1959 I was baptized in Jesus name and have the Holy Spirit ( as do all believers). It is my faith that saved me however. Its about Jesus, not me

[rossdaboss1959]

@musicmusing Where do it say that the moment u believe, u have the Holy Ghost? All through the book of Acts and even today, there is an initial sign of one receiving the Holy Ghost. ( speaking in tongues). Acts 19, they were believers, but didn't have the Holy Ghost. Cornelius was a believer, but didn't have the Holy Ghost and wasn't saved. That's why Peter was sent to him. Acts 11:14. Not everybody that believes have the Holy Ghost. The devil want people to think that, so they would get saved.

[musicmusing]

apostolics have made doctrine their god, not understanding the grace and mercy of our Lord. We are SAVED by grace thru faith. you cannot force scripture to fit your doctrine. I was baptised in Jesus name, yet it is the grace and mercy of God, the cross that saved me. i HAD TO REPENT OF THE PRIDE MOST APOSTOLICS HAVE AND CONFESS HE IS MY SAVIOR. never me or what i have done or not done.

[rossdaboss1959]

@musicmusing What are u talking about? U must of never read Acts 2:42, Ephesians 2:20. We are to follow the doctrine they taught. We not just coming up with whatever sounds good to us. U might have to read Acts 1:2, He, Jesus through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen. So it's the doctrine that Jesus have given them. So when u go against what they taught, u are going against what Jesus said. WAKE UP! Jesus is coming soon. Acts 2:38.

[Truthseeker424]

John ch.3 clearly states We must be born of the Spirit and of the water to enter the kingdom of heaven! Mark16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved,he that believeth not shall be damned! You can accept or reject God's true plan of salvation! Remember... 1LORD,1FAITH,1BAPTISM! (Eph.4:5)

[rossdaboss1959]

@Truthseeker424 Amen Amen!

[HARLANGENEPARROTT]

I HAVE "THE ONENESS OF GOD" DAVID BERNARD

IF YOU KNOW ALL THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT GOD, PLEASE SEND ME YOUR COMMENTARY.

I WANT TO KNOW GOD MORE.

I KNOW ALL TRINITY, ONENESS, ARIAN AND JESUS BEING JUST A MAN SCRIPTURES, SO OTHER THAN A HARMONY OF ALL SCRIPTURES ON THE SUBJECT THAT IS ALL I KNOW TO DO.

HARLAN 1 second ago

[denn034]

A failure to be baptism isn't the unpardonable sin as I'm sure the thief on the cross that died without baptism would appreciate. Jesus said the thief would be in paradise and he wasn't baptized after all!!!!!

[OneGodApostolic238]

@denn034 1. He was under law.

2. He was on a cross, how could he be baptized? Jesus would not require someone on their deathbed (or on their cross in this case) to be baptized.

[djvdiddy]

Sorry, pvjohnson was me, i was signed in on the wrong accout.

I agree there is no excuse for a believer to not be baptized, period. But when a person is born again his desire will be to follow Christ in Baptism. If he doesnt have that desire, he needs to examine himself to see if he is in the faith. Do you believe that when a man repents of his sins and trusts in Jesus for forgiveness of sins, that he is still a child of the Devil?

[Acerrak]

Christ said those who endure, to the end shall be saved. I started out with the sinners prayer and immediatly fruits of Christ started comming. By romans 10:9-10 &13 your correct. Titus 3 :5 says were saved by grace and not rightous works. No matter who says what were going to be judged by our hearts. everyone should get baptized its a wonderful thing. One thing i always mention, if God baptizes you with the Holy Spirit, the kingdom of God has come into you, and God has said your clean

[pvjohnson52]

Then are you saying there is 2 ways for a man to be saved? The ones that have water must be baptized to be justified, and the ones that dont have water dont? There's only one way to be justified before the sight of God, and thats through repentance & Faith. Its coming to God empty handed and trusting him.

"...then where is your salvation?" Yes, a believer must be baptized. If he refuses, then I would say his faith was a fraud!

[djvdiddy]

I agree that a man must follow the commands of Jesus on baptism. If he refuses to then I would suggest to him that his conversion is not genuine. We continually see in the bible that if man doent repent, he will perish, & if he has no faith he will likewise perish. But nowhere does it say these things of baptism. Just like circumcision in the old testement; it was a holy thing of God, but then man made a savior out of it! Same w/ baptism, A holy thing of God and man has made a savoir out of it.

[FalseTrinityDoctrine]

If baptism is a commandment, then that comes into the realm of obedience and if you don't obey, then where is your salvation? (Heb 5:9)

[uckhigh]

@FalseTrinityDoctrine mark 16 17 and these signs shall follow them that believe in my name shall they cast out devils they shall speak in new tongues

[rossdaboss1959]

@djvdiddy So Peter was given the keys of the kingdom and just for fun he said, Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Just for fun, Mark 16:16, Jesus said, He that believe and Is baptized shall be saved. Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12, 1 Peter 3:21, these are all just fun scriptures about baptism. People would rather fight against the scriptures than to just obey them. That's why Jesus is going to say, I KNOW U NOT! U fought against what the Bible showed and said. WAKE UP!

[djvdiddy]

@rossdaboss1959 Be careful now. You make it seem as tho im against baptism. Not the case. We are commanded. But I say to people as urself to trust Jesus, not ur Baptism. Sorry, not buying ur arguements. Funny u left out the last half of Mark 16:16. Sure that was an accident tho, right? The common factor in Mark 16:16 of salvation & damnation in belief! Show me a verse that tells us we are DAMNED if we are not baptized. Trust Jesus ALONE for your salvation! Not YOUR ability to be dunked in water

[djvdiddy]

Why would God make the Availability of water necessary for justification? So all the people in Ethiopia have no chance to be saved because theres just not enough water? If I get on my face and beg God for mercy, & trust in Christ for my salvation must I then go find some water for my sins to be forgiven? God reconciles the sinner upon Faith alone! Romans 4:5 states that our FAITH counted as rightiousness. Trust in what Christ already did 4 u, not what you have to go do...God Bless!!

[FalseTrinityDoctrine]

There is no such thing as "Saved by Faith Alone". If someone in Ethiopia didn't have water do you not think that God would be merciful by seeing that the pureness of that persons heart? If their is water around, then their shouldn't be any excuse to not be buried with Christ.

[sorens70601]

@FalseTrinityDoctrine ...Absolutely WRONG !!! Everyone is "saved" by grace through "faith alone". Water Baptism is "Because of" salvation, and as "a result of " salvation, and for the purpose of receiving the Holy Spirit baptism. This is why 1.Pet.3:21 declares that it is an "Answer", of a "Good conscience". An "answer" is a Response to, or reaction as a result of, a pre-existing action, (such action being salvation through faith alone) Your ERROR stems from your Not understanding what...

[sorens70601]

...constitutes the word "Baptism". Baptism is defined by three things, the "candidate", (the one to be baptised) the "element", (that substance into which the symbolic "burial" takes place) and the "agent", (the one who performs the Baptism) The scriptures clearly teach, that we are "Baptised By one Spirit",( the "Agent") " into one body" (the the literal body of Christ, in a spiritual sense, 1.Cor.12:13) So this makes it clear that the "Agent" is not a pastor or elder, but the Holy Spirit..

[sorens70601]

...this is what the scriptures call; "the circumcission done without hands", Col.2:11-13. Notice in this passage, that this "circumcission without hands" is teh literal "putting of the body of the SINS of the flesh", and that the being "burrid with Him in baptism" is the "operation of God", (the Holy Spirit) and we being "Dead in the flesh, Hath He ,(God, and not the pastor) "quickened", (Made spiritually alive) "together with Him,(Christ, who you were "baptized into" as the "element")....

[sorens70601]

...This is also confirmed in Gal.3:26-27, Notice verse 26 says we are all the children of God "By FAITH",(not water baptism) but in the next verse, by being "Baptized INTO CHRIST", (as the element,cf 1.Cor.12:13) That is the biblical doctrine of salvation. Only AFTER such "baptism into Christ" (the "element") By the "Holy Spirit",(the "agent") do we Now become a candidate, for "Water baptism"(water being the "element", and a pastor or elder being the "agent") Water Baptism therefore, is ...

[sorens70601]

....an "act" on our part, as a "Result of", or "Because of", (Greek "EIS") Salvation. 1.Pet.3:21, makes it clear that "water baptism" is not " the putting away the filth of the flesh". It also tels us that "water Baptism" is a 'Like figure unto", that spiritual act of baptism that does save , ( i.e. 1.Cor.12:13, Gal.3:26-27, Col2:11-13) The UPC teaching on Baptism is so far from the TRUTH, it beggars description !!! Just as their "One-ness" deception, it is a massive spiritual FRAUD !!

[rossdaboss1959]

@djvdiddy Why do people always try to compare themselves with other in a far country? U have to give account of your own life. If there's water around u, then it's up to u to obey. Look at the book of Acts. They had faith, but they were still baptized because of what they believed. People are added to the word of God. Faith alone! If Noah would of thought that way, and didn't build the boat, we wouldn't be here today. LOL The devil is a deceiver. WAKE UP! Jesus is coming soon! Acts 2:38.

[djvdiddy]

@rossdaboss1959 Sorry, but the Gospel, its for ALL! So I dont just take myself into consideration, but others too! Of course if theres water around, a TRUE believer WILL WANT be baptized. But take a person who repents & trusts Christ in an Iraqie prison, never to get out! God cant save him cause he CANT be baptized? The moment u say its a special circumstance for him, then baptism is not essential! essential means MUST w/ no exceptions!Doesnt work for faith! One MUST believe to be saved!

[swenmanwwjd12]

Don't worry about the people in Ethiopa. Worry about yourself djvdiddy. Just like the serpent who deceived Eve, you have altered the word of God. You and the rest of the false harlot church say "Faith Alone" not realizing that you have changed God's words. Nowhere in the bible is the phrase "Faith Alone" recorded. The verse actually says "For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves:it is the gift of God" Eph. 2:8 And Jas 2:17 says the complete opposite of "Faith Alone"

[djvdiddy]

@swenmanwwjd12 Dont worry about Ethiopians? Sorry, but as a true christian I do! They are just as human & just as valuble in God's eyes as I am. If you were a Christian, I dont see how u could say that. Why dont u read James 2:17 in context. Vrs 14 "though a man SAYS he has faith, & no works? Can faith save him?" The Greek denotes " tho a man SAYS he has faith & produces no works, can THAT faith save him, ". A true faith WILL produce works, not that your works is what saves you! cont...

[swenmanwwjd12]

@djvdiddy Don't be a fool. You are concerned for the Ethiopians in an unhealthy way. Measuring yourself by them. Read Jn. 21:21-22 Just like Jesus rebuked Peter and said "you follow me" He didn't mean Peter wasn't supposed to be concerned for John. Peter asked the same question you asked about people in Ethiopa. " ...and what shall this man do?" And God's response is the same to you as it was to Peter "you follow me." You have to have the truth yourself before you can help people in Ethiopa.

[swenmanwwjd12]

@djvdiddy We have to keep the commandments but to use them to prove we are righteous is a violation in God's eyes. If we do this they will be considered works of men and not of God. That's what I am saying about not stealing or lying or not coveting that if we think because we don't do those things we are right with God then those things will be considered works of men in the eyes of God. We need to OBEY the gospel first and then do these things out of a pure heart. Believing is obeying. Jn 3:36

[djvdiddy]

@swenmanwwjd12 cont to read to vs 20"..faith without works is DEAD". A true faith WILL PRODUCE good works. & as vs 26 concludes "Faith w/out works is dead", if there is no fruit in a man who SAYS he has faith(v14) then THAT faith is dead. But good works is the RESULT of being BORN AGAIN! Just as Calvin said "Faith alone saves, but a faith that saves is never alone". But you are teaching work rightiousness salvation, which is anti-christ! Your works will NEVER justifiy you b4 God(Rom 4:2).

[swenmanwwjd12]

@djvdiddy I wrote you a response. I would like you to look at the scripture evidence I have provided. You cannot deny what is written in God's word.

[djvdiddy]

@swenmanwwjd12 Friend, you deny that we are saved by the Grace of God. If anything is needed from YOU to be saved, then it is NOT Grace! Grace is an un-earned gift! The bible is CLEAR that even the very faith that we have was given to us by God!. I cant even believe without Him granting it! How could u say we must do good works then to be justified! Rom 4:5 "He that DOESNT work, but BELIEVES, his FAITH is counted FOR righteousness". If FAITH is what makes us righteous, then it is FAITH ALONE

[swenmanwwjd12]

@djvdiddy You also seem to have an unhealthy view on faith and works. First of all there is a difference between the works of God and the works of men. The works of men will not save us (keeping the commandments and helping the poor etc.) these are the works the bible preaches against in terms of salvation. But the works of God will save us. Water baptism and receiving God's Spirit are His works in us. Tit. 3:5 That's what He does in us. We didn't give ourselves water & Spirit. He did. Come on!

[swenmanwwjd12]

@djvdiddy I want bible, chapter and verse where it says faith "ALONE." If you can't give bible then your position is ruined.

[SupremeHero777]

We both agree that salvation is by faith through grace and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. I've noticed that there are a lot of things we can agree on. Thanks for the uploads bro! :)

[Truthknower]

Greetings! in the name of the Lord Jesus who is God most High.

If one believes on Jesus Christ then they will submit to water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ that their sins may be remitted or removed and then they will receive the Holy Ghost as evidence by speaking in another tongue as the Spirit of God gives the utterance. Therefore, all those whom have not obeyed Acts 2:38 have not place their faith in Jesus Christ and therefore shall end up in hell for eternity.

Marquest Burton

[8Anya8]

So to which one of these men do you find lines up closest to the truth Troy?

[Truthorfable]

You must harmonize the book of Romans with Acts Robert Morey. The bible is like is like a gaint puzzle where we must harmonize all scripture to fit our doctrine.

[FalseTrinityDoctrine]

You mean harmonize your doctrine to fit all scripture :)

[OneGodApostolic238]

@FalseTrinityDoctrine haha