Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Does the free market corrode moral character? (Templeton Foundation)

[SBRslacker00]

@MUFC196819992008

'For centuries immigrants came to the US and thrived without free money.'

Those were different times. There were different opportunities available then that are not available now. There was land to be claimed, resources to exploited. Now all land is owned and any resource is owned by multinationals.

But this is getting away from my original point about her claim that it is human nature to be a criminal if one isn't working a full time job. People are better than that.

[SBRslacker00]

@MUFC196819992008

The woman in the video wouldn't have been in the country if there was no free money.

Maybe a case can be made about clash of cultures and negative influences of immigration, but the U.S. stands as an example of a country built almost entirely from immigration. Maybe it's a moral tragedy that the U.S. exists, but it does exist as an example to the rest of the world.

Tragedy happens every day. I just think it's irresponsible to spin it into a talking point to fit an agenda.

[Penndennis]

@MUFC196819992008 How is it fundamentally flawed if that system gave her sanctuary along with social, domestic & health care not to mention the opportunity for a higher education? No system will ever be perfect but those systems that benefit the weak, vulnerable & disadvantaged in giving them opportunities to develop are to be encouraged. I'm delighted she had the chance to explore her potential & the world is better off for it but to then de-cry those self-same socialist principles is shameful

[SBRslacker00]

@MUFC196819992008

Life IS tragic irony.

She's just a parrot repeating the talking points. One can find a single case study example to support pretty much anything.

[tothemax01]

Ayaan is mistaken that America has a privatized banking system. However, yes, fuck social democracy.

[Penndennis]

For someone to have taken advantage of social democratic principles, which educated and lifted her away from Islamic Fundamentalism; I think it's a bit rich having had her fill to deny that same safety net to others.

She escaped, and now wants to pull up the ladder! Shame, Shame, Shame. Didn't expect this of her. She's only here because of social and educational leg-up she got from the Dutch.

[Zipsafe]

this is dumb.

[demoncleaner45]

does she actually claim in all seriousness that a guy would not have committed a murder had he been employed?

[SBRslacker00]

I have a lot of problems with her commentary, but I'll focus on what she says @ 4:00.

She makes a case for wage slavery as moral. She gives an example about some guy on welfare that committed murder. She claims if this guy had a job, he wouldn't have had time to murder anyone.

Good grief, what kind of logic is that? With that kind of thinking, humanity is just a big prison colony. Without the chains of capitalism, we'd all be murderers.

Standard fallacy of objective morality. (religion)

[RUBENSolol]

@SBRslacker00 Very nice straw man argument:). The fact that he had the time has nothing to do with his motivation. You are misinterpreting her argumentation, so fuck you.

[SBRslacker00]

@RUBENSolol

Why don't you state the argument? Expletives do not constitute a valid argument.

[Elasaltaculos]

Well, if only the free market actually caused this economic crisis to begin with............

[RockStudioLive]

All relationships should be free of coercion and deceit.

[VivekisV]

Her assessment of free-market "efficiency" has been proven to be more efficient at making the "rich get richer", since it allows more funds to be pooled into securities/investors/CEOs and other individuals who have a stake in trading. This "efficiency" requires regulation in order to prevent large sums of money being allocated to these types of individuals who do not follow lawful financial practices.

Free market morality must be dictated by norms created by the government in the form of laws.

[stratvic]

You state "rich get richer" as an evil. If we all get richer surely that is better for all of us.

Theft and fraud are not inherent features of the free market they are the antithesis of it. Moral norms can be enforced via many means, one of which is government....however it is not the primary method, at best it is a last resort, at worst it is an over used prop that undermines the integrity of the whole.

[VivekisV]

Interesting point. However, criminal activity is not the antithesis of the Free Market as much as it is the antithesis of its ideals.

In layman's terms, one can not realistically expect those with the power to profit from white collar crime to never use it at all. I would argue that securities laws prevent such abuses more effectively than personal morality does but as far as crime prevention is concerned, laws create a normative environment where such abuses are frowned upon.

[stratvic]

Like rape/ "criminal activity is not the antithesis of" relationships./? How do you separate the ideals intrinsic to the existence of a system from the system?

Securities laws are part of the problem leading to misplaced and less diligence by individuals. e.g. Madoff.

Laws are codified norms, laws do not create norms e.g. prohibition.

[VivekisV]

I was clearly referring to white collar crime, as stated. Being fair and just is not "intrinsic" to the Free Market and this is why society needs laws to uphold the ideals you speak of.

If you believe that rape is the antithesis of relationships, then do so and don't use it as a straw man in an argument that has NOTHING to do with crimes involving violence.

Getting back to securities abuses, I completely disagree and luckily so does the president of the United States.

[stratvic]

Free markets are relationships.

Govt sets up false props that we lean on to our peril. Govt always fails. e.g Katrina, 911,

If you are under attack by a criminal you have to protect yourself because though the government may be a phone call away, that is not going to help you in the time frame you need protection.

Govt can never be a replacement for personal responsibility.