Some people are more predisposed to commit evil acts than others, due to their genetics and brain chemistry. Even if we grant that free will exists, doing good comes more naturally and easily for some people than for others. Other people have a tendency towards anger issues, aggression, selfishness, and violence. We might say some are more strongly *tempted* to sin than others. If God existed, he could have made us free to sin, and with some sources of temptation--but not *as* strongly tempted.
This whole debate seems to be little more than an exercise in mental masturbation, driven by people who are desperately trying to defend the notion that their imaginary god could be real. What a pointless waste of time.
So we have "freedom" to be evil and refuse God, and if we choose that, we'll be tortured forever in hell - WOW, what a "freedom". And this "choice" (which is not a free choice in any sense) should justify this world filled with suffering, injustice, evil, hunger, disease, war and so on? This is not a free will like you're saying, this is an excuse (and really bad one) by God to torture us all - some in this life, the rest even after they die. Conclusion: "Christian God is illogical and evil".
Free will and omniscience are contradictions. If humans have free will then it cannot be known in advance. If our will is known in advance by god then our will is not free since it must conform to the specific outcome known in advance. Why would he create the human race knowing in advance the suffering?
Also, this video doesn't address suffering caused by natural causes such as earth quakes and disease. If god exists, he's either a sadistic fuck or an indifferent absentee landlord.
@sweetsweatyfeet First, free will is not a contradiction to omniscience. The knowing of what is to come doesn't change the will that caused the event, it only records it. Second, Scripture is very clear that since man was set as the pinnacle of creation, when he fell all of creation was subject to futility until man was restored to his proper place. This was so we would see the results of our sin and be prepared to make amends.
@masterkeep "all of creation was subject to futility"
Subject by whom? If we are subjected to something that alone negates free will. If man is saddled with a nature he has no control over then his will is not free.
Also, omniscience IS a contradiction to free will if the "agent of free will" has no power to change destiny. If he does have the power then only he can know his destiny since he is the one who only one who can change it. If his destiny is pre-ordained then it's not his to control.
@sweetsweatyfeet First, free will is not a contradiction to omniscience. The knowing of what is to come doesn't change the will that caused the event, it only records it. Second, Scripture is very clear that since man was set as the pinnacle of creation, when he fell all of creation was subject to futility until man was restored to his proper place. This was so we would see the results of our sin and be prepared to make amends.
The lord was able to make a perfect world. You said he COULDN'T have made it. That is the flaw I saw a couple times in the video. All of you understand God COULD'VE made a perfect world, but he wanted humanity to have freedom of choice. If he made the Earth perfect, Heaven would be a pointless creation. He gave us the choice, therefor he DID make a perfect world, which is waiting for all who believe in him.
Oh, and my other theory is that God is just bored as hell (see what I did there?). Being all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful has to get pretty boring after a few forevers. We're probably quite entertaining.
If the laws of physics stopped evil means free will doesn't exist, since you couldn't choose to be evil, then free will mustn't exist now as I can't choose to fly to the center of the Earth.
@Unclesamslair (cont) you said "God is all-powerful, he should be able to easily build a world without earthquakes" that was the garden of eden before they got kicked out of it. it was supposed to spread just as they were to. Remember the Devil Chose to do bad also, thats why "him" and "his" followers (human too) are Going to die in the future.
Using the logic of this video, your all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful god shows bad judgement by creating us anyway. I mean, where does your god get off creating us knowing how it would turn out? What kind of sick plan did he have in mind? Your god is a narcissistic, confused, childlike deity, and yet, people want to spend eternity with him? LOL, good thing he doesn't exist.
@Unclesamslair man is screwing up the earth. man knows this, but decide to continue doing so. adam eve garden of eden where perfect. man messed up and did things their way. paradise/perfection was lost. according to the bible.
@DecentExposureMedia so all the natural evil is just god punishing us for something we didn't even do? For something he knew was going to happen anyway? For something he could've prevented without violating adam and eve's free will? How does it even make sense to punish adam and eve when they didn't know what they were doing was wrong? And didn't God give us dominion over the earth and the animals?
@Unclesamslair Nature is not evil. nature is nature. Adam had a brain. God made him with one, he wasn't a baby. He made a choice just as satan did.If you look into as a big picture, youll see the main reason the bible is here is to show man cant direct his own step. (example: the isrealites wanted Human rule rather than Yahweh) man decided to rule himself and things are not good. We've got no one to blame but man. people are starving, so feed them. people are hurt, care for them...(cont)
@Unclesamslair (cont) if there are earthquakes is certain areas, stop bulding there. want world peace, stop fighting. Its easy but its not going to happen. so if armageddon comes around in our lifetime, there is no excuse. God gave man a chance to prove ourselves. this is proof man cant direct his own step (even most religions are corrupt. From biblical times, to the present). We see it started from cain and abel, down to today.
@DecentExposureMedia before he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil Adam and Eve could not have known that doing so and disobeying God was an act of evil if they didn't have the knowledge of good and evil. QED. As for nature being nature, you're right. Hurricanes, diseases and everything is just nature being nature. However if an all-knowing, all-powerful god exists, then he is ultimately responsible either directly or indirectly of all suffering of natural origin
@DecentExposureMedia As for war, that's not natural, your sidestepping the issue of natural suffering by talking about something that has nothing to do with it. And as for earthquakes, God is all-powerful, he should be able to easily build a world without earthquakes. In fact he should be able to create a universe without evil in it and still endow us with free will. If he can't, then he's not all-powerful. By creating the devil, and humans with evil urges he is still the author of evil.
@DecentExposureMedia Any god that is all-powerful, and all-knowing, and created a universe in which evil exists, is inescapably the creator of evil, whether directly or indirectly.
What about the evil that is caused by cancer, birth defects, tornadoes etc that free agents are not responsible for. In a world where an all knowing, powerful, and loving god exists, natural evil would not fall upon us. Also, their concept of free will is flawed. Free will does not mean freedom to do whatever I want, but freedom of desire. Otherwise if god existed, according to their definition, the fact that gravity prevents me from floating, but not the desire to, would violate my free will.
finrandochan & 31428571J have arguments that go something like this: beat your children once in a while so that they will be able to appreciate your love better.
When refering to God we should not think of the God of the ancient Isrealites as the Creator.The Jealous God of Moses was never a real God,anymore than the Great God Zeus was.It is very probable that Moses never even xisted.Belief in the Jealous God of Moses,whose name is Jealous,is just another 'popular delusion'.All the different faiths that come from belief in the Jealous God of Moses are just so many different variations of the same deluded belief,who have always Hated each other..Delusion..
@finrandochan It's possible to not do evil without doing any good either. In a world without people would either choose to do good or not to. Not doing good isn't an evil in and of itself.
this would me god doesnt influance the actions of man then so the old testement must be wrong and the world with out free will sounds a lot like the heaven in the bible
This video clearly contradicts itself when it claims that God is all-powerful; yet it is not within his power to create a free world where evil does not exist? If God really wanted to, he should be able to create free beings that always choose to reject evil. However you choose to rationalize it, you can't deny that an omniscient God should be able to figure out a way to make this happen. It's also been stated here before, but the problem of a perfect heaven and free will also remains.
@Grozzrox nope, because at heaven people will still have the choice, but no the sinner nature that we have. If bible really was an invention, well, a very complex an interesting invention indeed, very explained and with reason in our life. Don't argue about old customs, but our present. Even in we convince of the bible, many will not accept, because of crash with world-way of-life. Examine that book deeply, not only at the declarations, but context. Preparing for impact... 3,2,1...
@MrRickillo I have read the Bible and understand the context, that's why I feel there are some very big problems that need to be addressed if any rational thinking human being can accept the Bible as God's Word. I used to be a strong Christian but then I discovered somewhat of a revelation. Every problem I've ever faced I've been able to solve either by my own power or with the help of others. The same can be said about the world's problems. Can you really say that God has helped you personally?
@Grozzrox Here is an ilustration: There was a man on a boat, and it was sinking. He shouted: -God! Help Me!- then and lifeboat came close and it's crew said him: -Jump!. The man said: -No, God will help me. Then his boat sank and he died. When he arrived to heaven he questioned God> Why do not you saved me? And God said: I sent a lifeboat. Sorry for the english, but God help us at many ways, some of them natural, some of them really supernatural. I am close witness of those wonders
@Grozzrox 2+2 always will be 4. Creatures with only the posibility of choose good could exist, but they may be robots. (3 laws of asimov) And these not as alive creatures, just machines. Organic machines, but machines
A man asked God "Why don't you fix all the pain and suffering in the world?"
God looked down and asked him the same question.
Anytime something 'bad' happens in our life it is for a reason. Once our relationships are broken to bits we often realize that the people we clung to so desperately robbed us of our joy and hampered our growth. Similarly, life's 'storms' teach us lessons. Say your house is demolished in a flood. Years pass, and your life and home are rebuilt. Then you hear of a
flood in a nearby state.The strength that carried you through your loss and recovery may all be for a greater purpose:to aid someone who is experiencing a similar situation.
Well um, what about heaven? This claim supposes that along with free will, comes evil. So if heaven has no evil, than it has no free will? Or does heaven have free will, but therefore has evil with it? If God can create heaven without evil, and with freewill, than the question becomes, why allow evil on Earth? If you say free will answers the question of evil, than you also disprove your own notion of heaven.
@iamMarcusPolk He may trust them, but that doesn't mean they won't do evil. If they do evil, then heaven is not completely without evil. If God can make a place where there's free will, and people don't commit evil, then why doesn't he just make Earth without evil?
@onslaught147 Because an Earth without evil means a world devoid of free choice. We get the chance only once, not a second time. Heaven and hell are really more states of being than locations. The idea is that wherever God is not, evil abounds. If God completely removed His presence from Earth (this includes His Holy Spirit, who mingles with the spirits of His followers, therefor the followers would also need to go), there would be absolutely no good of any sort on the Earth. (continued)
@onslaught147 When we die, the spirit separates from the body. The spirit "goes" somewhere without "moving" anywhere. If the Holy Spirit is within us at our death, He transports us to be one with God the Father and Christ Jesus. Without the Holy Spirit, evil is the only substance within a soul, so the soul is left to the whims of the spiritual forces outside of Gods influence. This spiritual "world" is completely devoid of God, following with order, law, and good. We call this "place" Hell.
@gratedrawur So are you saying that because we have free will, there is evil? If that is true, than there is no free will in heaven. Since heaven is a place devoid of evil, where there is no evil, there can be no free will.
@onslaught147 No no, evil exists because it manifested itself through Lucifer, who was created by God. God created evil indirectly, but He did create it as was His intention. Free will does not exist because of evil, rather evil exists because of poor exercising in free will.
@gratedrawur Ok, so God created evil. He knew exactly what Lucifer was going to do, yet created him anyways. Thanks for that info. It seems God is the true evil one, creating evil and allowing suffering into the world. I don't know why you praise such an evil entity.
@onslaught147 Exactly! That's what I was getting at the whole time- that God is evil. Thank you for truly being open minded to understanding Christian theology, unlike so many others on here who don't care to learn, they only like to ridicule.
@gratedrawur The irony in that statement is hilarious. Anyways, keep on searching, keep on questioning. Given time, you'll eventually get it, or not who knows. I hope you will though. Just don't swallow anything whole without question (no, that's not a sexual joke). Good day sir.
@onslaught147 but you said with no evil there would be no free will in heaven. so its logical to think that god created evil so we can have free will... if he let humans have free will, how can god can be evil at this point. i think having a free will is pretty good.
@onslaught147 Satan and his followers were kicked out of heaven after due time. Now satan and his earthly followers will be killed in due time. afterward perfection will be restored as it was with adam and eve and man will be tested one last time, as in, No excuses to why a person chose to do wrong. (perfection)
@onslaught147 If you read the Bible (Ezekiel 28, Isaiah 14) you will realize that evil began in heaven (because angels are also free creatures). Evil was expelled from heaven and will never enter it again because they see the terrible results of evil in our lives... God's promise is that one day He will also eliminate evil from our lives. In Him I trust.
@onslaught147 Ok hopefully this helps...When you look at your shadow--is it really darkness? Or Just YOU blocking the LIGHT? So let's say God is the sun, and the Light are His Love, and Will. When YOU step between that, the result is a shadow. So it is always a choice.
@onslaught147 Heaven would be the place that those who chose moral good would go and if decided to choose evil afterwards would be cast out. You're point is stupid and void.
Others brought on the problem of "Why did god create disease, natural disasters, ect?" CONT. Why give us traits, ie arms, that are used to harm others? We do not have free will: we can't choose to be unknown, in private, and we have limits on our actions, ergo, this god should have no problem interfering with other aspects of free will to prevent evil. How can free will exist with omniscience? I contend god couldn't have omniscience because every action this god takes, god knew the consequence.
@Bourtini I see you have a video of Christian god. First, an extension of the POE, the problem of hell- infinite punishment for finite crimes and ignorance. Second, why does the Christian god commit atrocities? God sends plagues, god commands wars, destroys cities, tortures people, demands blood sacrifices, allows slavery, an estimate says god has killed 24,634,205 people. The Christian god is malevolent.
So natural disasters are our fault because we have free will and some people chose to do bad things? Give me a break. Belief in a god is not logical no matter how you try to rationalize it. I would perhaps respect you more if you didn't try to rationalize it at all. However that would mean you were incapable of applying logic to the subject of your belief which is ultimately unconvincing and rather sad.
@serpentinepoisen "Belief in a god is not logical no matter how you try to rationalize it." You would have the burden to prove this absurd assertion. Would you care to try please?
Also if sin deserves to put us in hell. We are guilty we deserve the punishment.
It would be unjust for a person to take a punishment for us. Thats why the cross makes no sense. Just imagine my father murdered someone and he was sentenced to death. I stood before a judge and said please let me go to the electric chair for my father. The judge would not say yes because that would be unjust to pay for someone elses crime.
@LiveFreeOrDie1985 The cross wasn't about Jesus being punished for us. That's a man-made tradition and a lie. The cross was about Jesus removing sin from us because it was already punishing us. You have to understand it from the perspective of a covenant as well. If you (or anyone else) would seriously like to know the truth about this stuff and not just the repetitive nonsense that Christians are so good at giving to people, send me a message and I will gladly tell you the truth.
Explain why babies are born with horrible genetic diseases and die horendous deaths.
You will say well its from the fall of man from adam and eve. Ok I can see your point.
However why do a lot of evil humans live long generally health problem free lives and then good people can die young of horrible disease. This is not just or not fair. This is proof against a just God.
From plantinga's argument one gets the impression that heaven isn't free, if they still have the capacity to do evil with freedom then if heaven is to be free there must be evil there as well. If not then the people must be changed in some form in order to enter it and still have that freedom.
Free will is more powerful than some people think to start with. Yes, certain things can be placed in a giant box with other different events and such that God could have changed, intervened, whatever you think to show mercy. Alas, the truth is that we are in charge of our actions and mankind has proven to be weak under mass external pressure. Pretty much, realize that God leaves Earth as our kingdom. We screw it over and he lets us because we have the same power to make it a Utopia.
If God had not created a moral world with free people in order to keep them from doing evil, then He would have created a world of toys and adornments. That would be a weird idea for an intelligent Almighty Creator, wouldn't it? God doesn't need any toy to play with.
Here we go again... I know that it is written that: "for the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness". Anyway I'm going to give it a try:
EVIL DOESN'T EXIST. What exists is "separation from God", but we use the word "evil" instead. God created a moral world but as we had free will we chose to do as we pleased and so there appeared the consecuences "evil deeds".
@2:30 Quote="so even though God is all powerful IT IS POSSIBLE that it was not in his power to create a world containing moral good but no moral evil therefore there is no logical inconsistency (that God is all knowing,loving & powerful)". NO=ALL-powerful by DEFINITION means EVERYTHING IS IN HIS POWER..including creating ANY kind of world.that includes an 'evil free' world (& if evil exists,he created its possibility but can still eliminate it in an instant if he wanted..cause he can do anything
@wmprokipchak 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
@wmprokipchak NJKV Rev. 21:1-4 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
@luvmusic09=oh and also..some man named John wrote this not God and if this man named John (who wrote this )did indeed believe he saw something coming out of heaven & heard a voice, if it was today I'd say "get thee to an emergency room: hearing voices & seeing vosions is the classic sign of schizophrenia, they have medication that will alleviate those visual & auditory hallucinations. And please dont tell anyone that what you saw & heard was real"
Furthermore, if you are so inclined to argue against God, a far better approach than the argument from evil would be the principle of Occam's razor. Any sensible ontology (account of existence) will be as parsimonious as possible. Thus it will exclude all entities which are unnecessary. There is no good ontological argument for the necessity of God. There are ontological arguments, but they're bad. Postulating the existence of a god is multiplying entities beyond necessity.
No disrespect intended to Mr. Plantinga, but that argument really is a load of bollocks. I have yet to see any convincing evidence that we have free will to begin with. If someone can show good solid evidence of free will, then discussion of ethics and morals might become worthwhile. Until then, discussion of ethics and morals is a waste of time. The universe is just a large space filled with caused events. This is commonly accepted and is also inconsistent with free will.
WTF America. That preposition is wrong. You can't tell whan god can and can not do. YOu can only state what you see. And what we see is evil all around. Therefore, god cannot exist or if he does, he's not a God. Fucking stop fucking trying to fucking find a fucking place for fucking religion for fucks fucking sake.
why would he put us on a planet, where half of our species would die before the age of maturity, as children, mostly because of disease. if he was all loving and all powerful why would he allow this? either he cant or he wont or he doesnt exist. if he cant, he is not omnipotent. if he wont then he is malevolent. the most likely answer is he just doesnt exist at all.
how does this account for nature and this planet being a death trap? apparently it only countd evil as moral evil. what about disease? what about famine? what about natural disasters?
So.... if we only can only do good we are not free, but if we do evil then we are punished.... yeah that REALLY sounds like fucking freedom.... Christianity is fucking STUPID.
If an all knowing anything existed, no free will could exist, you can't change the known. If you did manage to exercise your free will and achieve some other outcome, you would prove the fore knowledge wrong. Omniscience + free will = Oxymoron, it is a contradiction in terms. The fact we have free will, rules out the possibility of omniscience, and therefore God. The only love going on with an entity that demand devotion or else, is narcissistic self love.
I'm going to create man and woman with original sin. Then I'm going to impregnate a woman with myself as her child, so that I can be born. Once alive, I will kill myself as a sacrifice to myself. To save you from the sin I originally condemned you to.
Adolf Hitler did not slaughter 50 million people, because he had the freedom to do so, he did it because he was pure evil, and your so called all knowing all power and all loving god watched as he did so, your "god" is a fucking joke
If God got rid of all evil in the world, that means HE'D GET RID OF ALL OF US!!! We'd be wiped from the face of this Earth. Mercy and Grace, do you see them now?
@SES4L How dare you include me and mine in with your blanket assasination of humanity being evil. The root of human being is being humane. Not everyone needs to be bullied or goaded into being a good person with threat or reward to their egos of eternal existence. Which is utterly stupid seeing as any eternal existence would become a hell. Some people have a conscience and do the right thing simply because it's the right thing to do, they don't need ridiculous dark age fairy stories.
So God wanted us to have free will? Think what makes us choose the way we choose. I don't think "free will" alone makes choises... Why did God create us the way that we do evil things?
@Siipilintu He created us in a way that allows us to make choices. To choose to obey what He declares as right or to choose to dis-obey and choose what He has declared is wrong. He did not create us to do evil but he allowed us to make the choice. Giving evidence of His care for His creation. Because, if He made us without choice, what sort of love would we really be able to offer? The best love is the one that is freely given...
What if God had given us free will, but not all the needs and urges that leads to evil? Then people would not want to do so much evil things. Is the will to do evil necessary for love that is good enough for God? Why we have so much anger and greed and such?
@Siipilintu That is a great question. Think of what it must have been like in the beginning, the only possible "bad" was to make the choice to eat of the the tree that they were told not to eat from. Before that there was no knowledge of evil and we were created just the way you describe. Afterward came the knowledge and evil got progressively worse (though it did not take long). Does that make sense as described?
I'm not sure I get this, why does it matter whether people make morally right decisions freely or against their will? They make it sound like making a morally right decision freely is "worth more". What does that even mean? What does that even have to do with the original point?
@xphreakyphilx Because we are outside the tranquility of the Garden of Eden. As a result of The Fall, we live in a fallen sin cursed world where evil, disease and calamity are a natural consequence. One day, God's redeemed will eternally know peace and tranquility in the New Jerusalem.
@xphreakyphilx Well of course in order for this answer to be relevant to you, you would need to believe in the bible and it's teachings. But, in the bible Jesus tells us that in the end times, in other words, the times when Jesus is close to returning to earth, there will be signs. These signs consist of, pestilence, famine, war, and death. It speaks of people being without food, earthquakes, wars and diseases/sickness. Here are some bible verses: Mark 13:8, Matthew 24:7, Luke 21:11. Read.
This video addresses human evil, thinks it has outwitted the argument against evil, but actually misses what that argument addresses. Which is pain and suffering more than evil people, who we think behave with their own free will. Pain and suffering caused by disease, natural disaster, famine etc. these are not down to moral good or moral bad creatures yet still god lets them exist, which would make him morally bad or not exist the choice is yours. think again Alvin.
@redjove2000 bitch please would you like to live in paradise then? not everything is bad, you have to be optimist there is something to learn and to appreciate from everything in life its hard though, but possible.
@blaksephirot Sorry, i'm not sure what your point is? My comment here is pointing out the obvious flaw in the argument presented in the video, and nothing to do with optimism or pessimism or saying everything is bad, you've missed the point entirely. Maybe it went over your head. Try reading it again more slowly this time, maybe get an adult to help you with the big words. Appreciate that, bitch.
@redjove2000 The Bible says Jesus is the exact representation of God's being. He went around healing the sick and raising the dead, which shows that it's not God's will for those things to exist and He doesn't "allow" them to exist. So why is that stuff still here? Jesus told His church to go out and do what He did (Heal the sick, raise the dead, etc.) Instead they decided to sit in buildings their whole life and sing songs. So blame the church for being lazy and irresponsible, not God.
@SaintsnotSinners If disasters and sickness exist but god cant stop them, then how can he be omnipotent and therefore god. If they exist and god created the universe he must by definition have created them. If he didn't then how can he be god, and if he did he is immoral.
@redjove2000 He commissioned His church to stop that stuff. Instead His church decided to call it "God's sovereign plan or judgment!" every time it happens and they tolerate it and make excuses for it to exist. So don't blame God for that stuff, blame the church for being lazy and irresponsible and caring more about their traditions than they do about the people Jesus told them to help.
@SaintsnotSinners No, you're either deliberately not getting my very simple point, or you're an idiot. If he allows sickness and disasters then he is immoral, he does not need a church to stop them for him, if he does he is not all powerful and therefore not a god. You cannot blame humans for anything god allows to happen, or say he doesn't allow it, because an ALL POWERFUL being is allowing it to happen otherwise he is not ALL POWERFUL. Or just maybe he doesn't exist. I cant put it any simpler.
@redjove2000 You're the one not getting it. He wants relationship with people. What happens in relationship? You participate and work together with the person you are in relationship with. Relationships where one person does EVERYTHING while the other person sits on their ass and does nothing, are usually unhealthy.
I might be able to agree with you that he doesn't exist if I haven't actually seen people impossibly healed :P. You're going by what you haven't seen, I'm going by what I have.
@SaintsnotSinners The god you describe is neither omnipotent or omniscient then.So therefore not god. I mean how can you have a relationship with someone when you know whats going to happen to them, what they think etc. Also on the impossibly healed thing, people sometimes attribute spontaneous remission to god, in the case of cancer for instance, but never the spontaneous regrown limb. Possibly because god has never regrown someones limb, ever. Why cancer and not damage caused by polio?
@SaintsnotSinners I'll tell you why, because the immune system can and does fight cancer, and in some very lucky people help cure them. The immune system however is utterly useless at regrowing limbs, as is the rest of the body. One things for sure gods got absolutely nothing to do with it. Because he doesn't exist.
@redjove2000 You're forgetting one main element that defines God and his immanence in this physical world: Love. What would you be willing to sacrifice for the love you have towards your mother or your family? are you willing to suffer any level of pain and suffering for them (disease, natural disaster)? I would. That's exactly what Jesus (God in flesh) did when he let himself be crucified by man and by evil (free will). He did it because of love, so what wouldn't you do for love?..
@TheEliasRav He would know the probability. Few things you do are in actuality 100% decided. As God he would exist in past present, and in all outcomes of the future, so, he would know what happens in each of those personally, and so, would have to wait until the moment it actually happens for those other branches to close off.
We also have a massive amount of different forces in this world trying to move us this way and that, both literally and metaphorically.
@0Maloy1 good answer... still in the end only one branch will be fulfilled thus the other branches will never happen, as if they never existed. If god ( wether he exists or not, and wether he is the theological one) is all knowing he will most certainly know the outcome so even if there where branches there existence would be useless, only one branch will take place and he already knows which one. free will cannot exist if god is all knowing.
@0Maloy1 I would like to finish this discussion by saying that unfortunately, the only way to understand which argument is better, is to prove not only if god exists but also to comprehend what type of god he is ( theistic, deistic or pantheistic) and to understand his characteristics. so until then there is no winner , so the only thing we can do in the mean time is to continuously reflect on this argument and if he doesn't exist, at least we found a way to keep are minds at work.
@TheEliasRav Lol point taken. Historically the argument favors Christianity.Your argument on the post before does not really make sense. Tomorrow has not definitively been decided yet. Its not decided until it actually happens. So, other branches remain open until its already happened. Example: Obama has a set schedule for everyday, but minor things we can not know for sure what will happen. Will one of his secretaries spill coffee on a document again because she forgets to put it on her left?
Why are you equating libertarian free will and Christianity? There is a long Christian tradition, centered now mainly around Calvinism, which denies free will. They believe the future is just as set in stone as the past, and the fates of the saved and damned were all irreversibly decided by God before the world was created.
@AdamdeMalyns Not all express support for that either, I have scriptural reasons not to support it. Although I did at one point, I was thoroughly schooled when I tried to prove my point on it.
@0Maloy1 i don't agree for the simple fact that there is no such thing as coincidence, Every action has a reaction and well if the universe was created by god he would be the first action. All knowing does not only mean that he knows past present and future but he knows everything about everything including physics and mathematics so i don't think he would have a hard time calculating the probability of which branch will happen. from your description god doesn't seem that smart.
@TheEliasRav It certainly does have a reaction, but not every reaction is intentional, and we are still sentient beings capable of independent thought(Although I'd argue that some people are willingly sheep in a flock) Their are other forces in this world(action wise not just spiritually) and we ourselves are a force.
On this topic, I believe for most of our young lives we are in fact just following how we were raised lead too etc. But at some point we develop enough to think and act indepedant
@TheEliasRav Let me try to clear up what I just said in my last comment. He does see the probability, but that does not mean he acts on it. Certainly people who are deserving of death are acted upon, but it does say in the Bible that God does not give up on those who still have a chance of coming to him. For he wants and loves man with all his heart.
That said, we can see from individuals like the Devil, that just knowing the truth does not necessarily imply that you will choose to follow it.
Search for "Is God Good?" here on YouTube. Then click on the one who is made by Zangomatic. The reason for why God created evil, is if not, it wouldn't be any choises to take. No choise = No freedom. But God wanted us to be free. That's why evil exist. Then, evil is in one way good, because God created it so people could have freedom.
To all of you who's still in confusion. Cold exist because the absence of Heat. Darkness exist because the absence of Light. Hate exist because the absence of Love. Bad/Evil exist because the absence of Love of God. The only gift, that God will never take away, is FREEDOM so we have a choice. The Bible is the hardest thing to understand because it is full of metaphors and symbols. We must not understand the Bible, literally speaking but the deeper sense of it. for Example our first parent. :)
This was actually refreshing. Theists rarely present logic in their arguments. This was, at least for me, an original presentation. Here's my main objection. It's not so much that suffering is a problem as it relates to humans. It's also quite prevalent in nature. Life is and has always been a constant struggle. The vast majority of all species that ever lived, more than 98%, are now extinct. There are more failed species than successful ones. Why would a loving God design things this way?
@anzwertree In the Bible, it says that after Eden the Devil was allowed to take control of the Earth, he is the one who causes all issues in the Bible, and man originally chose him over God. I only know the Christian view you'd have to ask someone else about other religions
@0Maloy1 I know the story of sin and where it supposedly came from. But I asked why nature was filled with suffering, Why are most species now long since dead? Just take all humans away from the planet, and it would still be a difficult place to live. Animals must fight for survival, against disease and competition from other animals. This has been going on millions of years. It has nothing to do with something that happened a few thousand years ago. Nature has always been rough
@anzwertree Yeah one Theory says the Days that God let pass inbetween each individual thing he created on Earth, was just a metaphor to help explain how little time it is to him, and that in actuality the days themselves were actually massive amounts of time different.
Animals have for the most part kept themselves in balance, a disaster would happen or a species gets thinned out sufficiently enough and the entire field changes. Devil takes it to the extreme with his destruction.
Oh dear... Moral evil isn't the only kind of evil that exists. Either they accidentally made an embarrassing logical misstep or they are intentionally trying to mislead people.
Im 13 and im at that stage when i want to choose my faith,im a fellow christian and belive that if god could stop evil he would but only to people who truly deserve to be saved from it, for example Stanley Praimnath, survivor of the 11th of september attacks was a fellow strong christian, on the day of 9/11 he was at his desk on the 81st floor of the south tower when he spotted the second plane, not having time to react he shouted "lord i cant do this,you take over" and he moved under his desk
CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG IN ANY WAY. God Created everything, God planned everything ( a.k.a. God's will ), noone / nothing can change God's will. With that being said, God made me atheist, i did not CHOSE to be atheist because i cannot change God's will, he made me atheist. By what beleivers say, i will burn in hell for all eternity because im atheist...But God made me this way, so God purposely Creates people just to send them to hell. :-) HAPPY FACE
Unfortunately the bible refutes this point repeately having god punish evildoers in this lifetime. If you commit an "evil" act god will drown you (even if you are a feotus), if you are "evil" and happen to live on land god promised to the isrealites he will kill you, if you are a bunch of youths and you call his prophet "baldy" then god will kill you, if you get a little out of hand while your leader is carving tablets up on the mountain god will order your family to kill you.
The Fact is more People who have Lived on this Earth Died not being a Christian. So whats the point of Creating Humans when in the End Most Burn in Hell Anyway, it's Pointless.
So what you've done here is conduct a thought experiment which basically proves the bible wrong, so you could argue against another thought experiment which proves your god wrong. You're grasping at straws, bending over backwards to avoid the truth.
Where were you doubters at the beginning? Did you create the marvels of the universe? Did you breath life unto the earth? Did you put the moon in perfect place? Were you the writer of the seasons. Did the ground spring forth at your command? Where were you when it all began? Where we your scientist?
Some people Seriously need God, they Need a Voice in their Head to Tell them what's Right & Wrong. If your that Kind of Person, Please Continue Believing.
@nasia97 Exactly. He would know when an earthquake is about to happen if he knows all. He would want to stop it is he loves all. He could stop it if he is all powerful but he doesn't. #contradictory
Is a very nice revelation from God that deals with why we are here in this physic reality where there is evil and suffering. NEWMESSAGE(.org) Special teachings, part of a very recent message from God
@nasia97 how is a earth quake, typhoon or a tornado evil? these are natural occurances. is it evil when a pack of wolves kill a deer, no it's not. nature is a beautiful yet at times savage thing.
God's Glory Forever and ever.
footballsoccer358 9 hours ago
Some people are more predisposed to commit evil acts than others, due to their genetics and brain chemistry. Even if we grant that free will exists, doing good comes more naturally and easily for some people than for others. Other people have a tendency towards anger issues, aggression, selfishness, and violence. We might say some are more strongly *tempted* to sin than others. If God existed, he could have made us free to sin, and with some sources of temptation--but not *as* strongly tempted.
Megaritz 1 day ago
This whole debate seems to be little more than an exercise in mental masturbation, driven by people who are desperately trying to defend the notion that their imaginary god could be real. What a pointless waste of time.
mikefromwa 3 days ago
So we have "freedom" to be evil and refuse God, and if we choose that, we'll be tortured forever in hell - WOW, what a "freedom". And this "choice" (which is not a free choice in any sense) should justify this world filled with suffering, injustice, evil, hunger, disease, war and so on? This is not a free will like you're saying, this is an excuse (and really bad one) by God to torture us all - some in this life, the rest even after they die. Conclusion: "Christian God is illogical and evil".
davidwerl 1 week ago
Free will and omniscience are contradictions. If humans have free will then it cannot be known in advance. If our will is known in advance by god then our will is not free since it must conform to the specific outcome known in advance. Why would he create the human race knowing in advance the suffering?
Also, this video doesn't address suffering caused by natural causes such as earth quakes and disease. If god exists, he's either a sadistic fuck or an indifferent absentee landlord.
sweetsweatyfeet 1 week ago
@sweetsweatyfeet First, free will is not a contradiction to omniscience. The knowing of what is to come doesn't change the will that caused the event, it only records it. Second, Scripture is very clear that since man was set as the pinnacle of creation, when he fell all of creation was subject to futility until man was restored to his proper place. This was so we would see the results of our sin and be prepared to make amends.
masterkeep 1 week ago
@masterkeep "all of creation was subject to futility"
Subject by whom? If we are subjected to something that alone negates free will. If man is saddled with a nature he has no control over then his will is not free.
Also, omniscience IS a contradiction to free will if the "agent of free will" has no power to change destiny. If he does have the power then only he can know his destiny since he is the one who only one who can change it. If his destiny is pre-ordained then it's not his to control.
sweetsweatyfeet 1 week ago
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@sweetsweatyfeet First, free will is not a contradiction to omniscience. The knowing of what is to come doesn't change the will that caused the event, it only records it. Second, Scripture is very clear that since man was set as the pinnacle of creation, when he fell all of creation was subject to futility until man was restored to his proper place. This was so we would see the results of our sin and be prepared to make amends.
masterkeep 1 week ago
"Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil."
TVLandon 1 week ago
The lord was able to make a perfect world. You said he COULDN'T have made it. That is the flaw I saw a couple times in the video. All of you understand God COULD'VE made a perfect world, but he wanted humanity to have freedom of choice. If he made the Earth perfect, Heaven would be a pointless creation. He gave us the choice, therefor he DID make a perfect world, which is waiting for all who believe in him.
"Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on e
TVLandon 1 week ago
Oh, and my other theory is that God is just bored as hell (see what I did there?). Being all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful has to get pretty boring after a few forevers. We're probably quite entertaining.
GiraffeColin 1 week ago
In essence, blame yourself. Always the answer with religion.
GiraffeColin 1 week ago
If the laws of physics stopped evil means free will doesn't exist, since you couldn't choose to be evil, then free will mustn't exist now as I can't choose to fly to the center of the Earth.
Very stupid argument.
9hello123 1 week ago
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@Unclesamslair (cont) you said "God is all-powerful, he should be able to easily build a world without earthquakes" that was the garden of eden before they got kicked out of it. it was supposed to spread just as they were to. Remember the Devil Chose to do bad also, thats why "him" and "his" followers (human too) are Going to die in the future.
God gave free will and some chose to abuse it.
DecentExposureMedia 1 week ago
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@Unclesamslair “Let us make man in our image" so Adam/Eve wasnt stupid.
"the tree was desirable to look upon" it looked good because of what it meant.
Genesis 3:2 she knew she wasnt supposed to take what was not hers, as did adam.
Genesis 3:4 satan basicaly said you go by your own rules. you can be a god to govern yourself.
God knew what they did and now humans rule themselves.(cont)
DecentExposureMedia 1 week ago
I think that He allows it as a test of our faith.
Why would someone who stops believing in Him after a death of a relative deserve to go into Heaven?
whatevr192 1 week ago
Using the logic of this video, your all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful god shows bad judgement by creating us anyway. I mean, where does your god get off creating us knowing how it would turn out? What kind of sick plan did he have in mind? Your god is a narcissistic, confused, childlike deity, and yet, people want to spend eternity with him? LOL, good thing he doesn't exist.
CerebrumPedere 2 weeks ago
@Unclesamslair man is screwing up the earth. man knows this, but decide to continue doing so. adam eve garden of eden where perfect. man messed up and did things their way. paradise/perfection was lost. according to the bible.
DecentExposureMedia 2 weeks ago
@DecentExposureMedia so all the natural evil is just god punishing us for something we didn't even do? For something he knew was going to happen anyway? For something he could've prevented without violating adam and eve's free will? How does it even make sense to punish adam and eve when they didn't know what they were doing was wrong? And didn't God give us dominion over the earth and the animals?
Unclesamslair 1 week ago
@Unclesamslair Nature is not evil. nature is nature. Adam had a brain. God made him with one, he wasn't a baby. He made a choice just as satan did.If you look into as a big picture, youll see the main reason the bible is here is to show man cant direct his own step. (example: the isrealites wanted Human rule rather than Yahweh) man decided to rule himself and things are not good. We've got no one to blame but man. people are starving, so feed them. people are hurt, care for them...(cont)
DecentExposureMedia 1 week ago
@Unclesamslair (cont) if there are earthquakes is certain areas, stop bulding there. want world peace, stop fighting. Its easy but its not going to happen. so if armageddon comes around in our lifetime, there is no excuse. God gave man a chance to prove ourselves. this is proof man cant direct his own step (even most religions are corrupt. From biblical times, to the present). We see it started from cain and abel, down to today.
DecentExposureMedia 1 week ago
@DecentExposureMedia before he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil Adam and Eve could not have known that doing so and disobeying God was an act of evil if they didn't have the knowledge of good and evil. QED. As for nature being nature, you're right. Hurricanes, diseases and everything is just nature being nature. However if an all-knowing, all-powerful god exists, then he is ultimately responsible either directly or indirectly of all suffering of natural origin
Unclesamslair 1 week ago
@DecentExposureMedia As for war, that's not natural, your sidestepping the issue of natural suffering by talking about something that has nothing to do with it. And as for earthquakes, God is all-powerful, he should be able to easily build a world without earthquakes. In fact he should be able to create a universe without evil in it and still endow us with free will. If he can't, then he's not all-powerful. By creating the devil, and humans with evil urges he is still the author of evil.
Unclesamslair 1 week ago
@DecentExposureMedia Any god that is all-powerful, and all-knowing, and created a universe in which evil exists, is inescapably the creator of evil, whether directly or indirectly.
Unclesamslair 1 week ago
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DecentExposureMedia 1 week ago
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DecentExposureMedia 1 week ago
What about the evil that is caused by cancer, birth defects, tornadoes etc that free agents are not responsible for. In a world where an all knowing, powerful, and loving god exists, natural evil would not fall upon us. Also, their concept of free will is flawed. Free will does not mean freedom to do whatever I want, but freedom of desire. Otherwise if god existed, according to their definition, the fact that gravity prevents me from floating, but not the desire to, would violate my free will.
Unclesamslair 2 weeks ago
Isaiah 46:9-11....
Faustoteinmor 3 weeks ago
Great vid, you should make more :D
MrParanormalist 3 weeks ago
finrandochan & 31428571J have arguments that go something like this: beat your children once in a while so that they will be able to appreciate your love better.
castelgandalf 3 weeks ago
When refering to God we should not think of the God of the ancient Isrealites as the Creator.The Jealous God of Moses was never a real God,anymore than the Great God Zeus was.It is very probable that Moses never even xisted.Belief in the Jealous God of Moses,whose name is Jealous,is just another 'popular delusion'.All the different faiths that come from belief in the Jealous God of Moses are just so many different variations of the same deluded belief,who have always Hated each other..Delusion..
GARYWERSLEY 3 weeks ago
Evil was created because without it, love and good would hold no value.
finrandochan 3 weeks ago
@finrandochan It's possible to not do evil without doing any good either. In a world without people would either choose to do good or not to. Not doing good isn't an evil in and of itself.
Unclesamslair 2 weeks ago
Goodness has to have its converse - otherwise good (or evil) would be reduced to normality.
('extreme anything' has to have it converse twin)
31428571J 3 weeks ago
this would me god doesnt influance the actions of man then so the old testement must be wrong and the world with out free will sounds a lot like the heaven in the bible
billytwohatz21 4 weeks ago
This video clearly contradicts itself when it claims that God is all-powerful; yet it is not within his power to create a free world where evil does not exist? If God really wanted to, he should be able to create free beings that always choose to reject evil. However you choose to rationalize it, you can't deny that an omniscient God should be able to figure out a way to make this happen. It's also been stated here before, but the problem of a perfect heaven and free will also remains.
Grozzrox 4 weeks ago
@Grozzrox nope, because at heaven people will still have the choice, but no the sinner nature that we have. If bible really was an invention, well, a very complex an interesting invention indeed, very explained and with reason in our life. Don't argue about old customs, but our present. Even in we convince of the bible, many will not accept, because of crash with world-way of-life. Examine that book deeply, not only at the declarations, but context. Preparing for impact... 3,2,1...
MrRickillo 3 weeks ago
@MrRickillo I have read the Bible and understand the context, that's why I feel there are some very big problems that need to be addressed if any rational thinking human being can accept the Bible as God's Word. I used to be a strong Christian but then I discovered somewhat of a revelation. Every problem I've ever faced I've been able to solve either by my own power or with the help of others. The same can be said about the world's problems. Can you really say that God has helped you personally?
Grozzrox 3 weeks ago
@Grozzrox Here is an ilustration: There was a man on a boat, and it was sinking. He shouted: -God! Help Me!- then and lifeboat came close and it's crew said him: -Jump!. The man said: -No, God will help me. Then his boat sank and he died. When he arrived to heaven he questioned God> Why do not you saved me? And God said: I sent a lifeboat. Sorry for the english, but God help us at many ways, some of them natural, some of them really supernatural. I am close witness of those wonders
MrRickillo 3 weeks ago
@Grozzrox 2+2 always will be 4. Creatures with only the posibility of choose good could exist, but they may be robots. (3 laws of asimov) And these not as alive creatures, just machines. Organic machines, but machines
MrRickillo 3 weeks ago
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holtonaminute 1 month ago
A man asked God "Why don't you fix all the pain and suffering in the world?"
God looked down and asked him the same question.
Anytime something 'bad' happens in our life it is for a reason. Once our relationships are broken to bits we often realize that the people we clung to so desperately robbed us of our joy and hampered our growth. Similarly, life's 'storms' teach us lessons. Say your house is demolished in a flood. Years pass, and your life and home are rebuilt. Then you hear of a
holtonaminute 1 month ago
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flood in a nearby state.The strength that carried you through your loss and recovery may all be for a greater purpose:to aid someone who is experiencing a similar situation.
holtonaminute 1 month ago
Satan's greatest fears are Christian's scars...if we allow God to heal them we can use them to change others lives in a powerful and meaningful way.
holtonaminute 1 month ago
Well um, what about heaven? This claim supposes that along with free will, comes evil. So if heaven has no evil, than it has no free will? Or does heaven have free will, but therefore has evil with it? If God can create heaven without evil, and with freewill, than the question becomes, why allow evil on Earth? If you say free will answers the question of evil, than you also disprove your own notion of heaven.
onslaught147 1 month ago 8
@onslaught147 Heaven is where those reside that he TRUSTS not to choose evil. That's kinda the point of existence. A test of trust. Get it now?
iamMarcusPolk 2 weeks ago
@iamMarcusPolk He may trust them, but that doesn't mean they won't do evil. If they do evil, then heaven is not completely without evil. If God can make a place where there's free will, and people don't commit evil, then why doesn't he just make Earth without evil?
onslaught147 2 weeks ago
@onslaught147 Because an Earth without evil means a world devoid of free choice. We get the chance only once, not a second time. Heaven and hell are really more states of being than locations. The idea is that wherever God is not, evil abounds. If God completely removed His presence from Earth (this includes His Holy Spirit, who mingles with the spirits of His followers, therefor the followers would also need to go), there would be absolutely no good of any sort on the Earth. (continued)
gratedrawur 2 weeks ago
@onslaught147 When we die, the spirit separates from the body. The spirit "goes" somewhere without "moving" anywhere. If the Holy Spirit is within us at our death, He transports us to be one with God the Father and Christ Jesus. Without the Holy Spirit, evil is the only substance within a soul, so the soul is left to the whims of the spiritual forces outside of Gods influence. This spiritual "world" is completely devoid of God, following with order, law, and good. We call this "place" Hell.
gratedrawur 2 weeks ago
@gratedrawur So are you saying that because we have free will, there is evil? If that is true, than there is no free will in heaven. Since heaven is a place devoid of evil, where there is no evil, there can be no free will.
onslaught147 2 weeks ago
@onslaught147 No no, evil exists because it manifested itself through Lucifer, who was created by God. God created evil indirectly, but He did create it as was His intention. Free will does not exist because of evil, rather evil exists because of poor exercising in free will.
gratedrawur 2 weeks ago
@gratedrawur Ok, so God created evil. He knew exactly what Lucifer was going to do, yet created him anyways. Thanks for that info. It seems God is the true evil one, creating evil and allowing suffering into the world. I don't know why you praise such an evil entity.
onslaught147 2 weeks ago
@onslaught147 Exactly! That's what I was getting at the whole time- that God is evil. Thank you for truly being open minded to understanding Christian theology, unlike so many others on here who don't care to learn, they only like to ridicule.
gratedrawur 2 weeks ago
@onslaught147 They also use a lot of sarcasm too.
gratedrawur 2 weeks ago
@gratedrawur The irony in that statement is hilarious. Anyways, keep on searching, keep on questioning. Given time, you'll eventually get it, or not who knows. I hope you will though. Just don't swallow anything whole without question (no, that's not a sexual joke). Good day sir.
onslaught147 2 weeks ago
@onslaught147 but you said with no evil there would be no free will in heaven. so its logical to think that god created evil so we can have free will... if he let humans have free will, how can god can be evil at this point. i think having a free will is pretty good.
8u8u8u8u8u8u8u 2 weeks ago
@onslaught147 Satan and his followers were kicked out of heaven after due time. Now satan and his earthly followers will be killed in due time. afterward perfection will be restored as it was with adam and eve and man will be tested one last time, as in, No excuses to why a person chose to do wrong. (perfection)
DecentExposureMedia 1 week ago
@onslaught147 If you read the Bible (Ezekiel 28, Isaiah 14) you will realize that evil began in heaven (because angels are also free creatures). Evil was expelled from heaven and will never enter it again because they see the terrible results of evil in our lives... God's promise is that one day He will also eliminate evil from our lives. In Him I trust.
getBeyond 1 week ago
@onslaught147 Ok hopefully this helps...When you look at your shadow--is it really darkness? Or Just YOU blocking the LIGHT? So let's say God is the sun, and the Light are His Love, and Will. When YOU step between that, the result is a shadow. So it is always a choice.
heroslyfe 1 week ago
@onslaught147 Heaven would be the place that those who chose moral good would go and if decided to choose evil afterwards would be cast out. You're point is stupid and void.
DoubleAssClown 1 week ago
@onslaught147 in Islam if you are evil in heaven then you can be sent to hell
roleplayinggamegames 1 week ago
Others brought on the problem of "Why did god create disease, natural disasters, ect?" CONT. Why give us traits, ie arms, that are used to harm others? We do not have free will: we can't choose to be unknown, in private, and we have limits on our actions, ergo, this god should have no problem interfering with other aspects of free will to prevent evil. How can free will exist with omniscience? I contend god couldn't have omniscience because every action this god takes, god knew the consequence.
Bourtini 1 month ago
@Bourtini I see you have a video of Christian god. First, an extension of the POE, the problem of hell- infinite punishment for finite crimes and ignorance. Second, why does the Christian god commit atrocities? God sends plagues, god commands wars, destroys cities, tortures people, demands blood sacrifices, allows slavery, an estimate says god has killed 24,634,205 people. The Christian god is malevolent.
Bourtini 1 month ago
So natural disasters are our fault because we have free will and some people chose to do bad things? Give me a break. Belief in a god is not logical no matter how you try to rationalize it. I would perhaps respect you more if you didn't try to rationalize it at all. However that would mean you were incapable of applying logic to the subject of your belief which is ultimately unconvincing and rather sad.
serpentinepoisen 1 month ago
@serpentinepoisen "Belief in a god is not logical no matter how you try to rationalize it." You would have the burden to prove this absurd assertion. Would you care to try please?
rusty2029 1 month ago
are you serius?
Merveilleux202 1 month ago
Also if sin deserves to put us in hell. We are guilty we deserve the punishment.
It would be unjust for a person to take a punishment for us. Thats why the cross makes no sense. Just imagine my father murdered someone and he was sentenced to death. I stood before a judge and said please let me go to the electric chair for my father. The judge would not say yes because that would be unjust to pay for someone elses crime.
LiveFreeOrDie1985 1 month ago
@LiveFreeOrDie1985 The cross wasn't about Jesus being punished for us. That's a man-made tradition and a lie. The cross was about Jesus removing sin from us because it was already punishing us. You have to understand it from the perspective of a covenant as well. If you (or anyone else) would seriously like to know the truth about this stuff and not just the repetitive nonsense that Christians are so good at giving to people, send me a message and I will gladly tell you the truth.
SaintsnotSinners 1 month ago
Explain why babies are born with horrible genetic diseases and die horendous deaths.
You will say well its from the fall of man from adam and eve. Ok I can see your point.
However why do a lot of evil humans live long generally health problem free lives and then good people can die young of horrible disease. This is not just or not fair. This is proof against a just God.
LiveFreeOrDie1985 1 month ago
From plantinga's argument one gets the impression that heaven isn't free, if they still have the capacity to do evil with freedom then if heaven is to be free there must be evil there as well. If not then the people must be changed in some form in order to enter it and still have that freedom.
Requiemxtoxinnocence 1 month ago
Free will is more powerful than some people think to start with. Yes, certain things can be placed in a giant box with other different events and such that God could have changed, intervened, whatever you think to show mercy. Alas, the truth is that we are in charge of our actions and mankind has proven to be weak under mass external pressure. Pretty much, realize that God leaves Earth as our kingdom. We screw it over and he lets us because we have the same power to make it a Utopia.
djsharp5753 1 month ago in playlist More videos from WhatisMedia
If God had not created a moral world with free people in order to keep them from doing evil, then He would have created a world of toys and adornments. That would be a weird idea for an intelligent Almighty Creator, wouldn't it? God doesn't need any toy to play with.
Cuban0521 1 month ago in playlist JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES Answers to bible questions
Here we go again... I know that it is written that: "for the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness". Anyway I'm going to give it a try:
EVIL DOESN'T EXIST. What exists is "separation from God", but we use the word "evil" instead. God created a moral world but as we had free will we chose to do as we pleased and so there appeared the consecuences "evil deeds".
Cuban0521 1 month ago in playlist JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES Answers to bible questions
@2:30 Quote="so even though God is all powerful IT IS POSSIBLE that it was not in his power to create a world containing moral good but no moral evil therefore there is no logical inconsistency (that God is all knowing,loving & powerful)". NO=ALL-powerful by DEFINITION means EVERYTHING IS IN HIS POWER..including creating ANY kind of world.that includes an 'evil free' world (& if evil exists,he created its possibility but can still eliminate it in an instant if he wanted..cause he can do anything
wmprokipchak 1 month ago
@wmprokipchak 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
luvmusic09 1 month ago
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@luvmusic09 =irrelevant biblical blah blah blah doesnt address my point
wmprokipchak 1 month ago
@wmprokipchak NJKV Rev. 21:1-4 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
luvmusic09 1 month ago
@luvmusic09=irrelevant biblical blah blah blah doesnt address my point
wmprokipchak 1 month ago
@luvmusic09=oh and also..some man named John wrote this not God and if this man named John (who wrote this )did indeed believe he saw something coming out of heaven & heard a voice, if it was today I'd say "get thee to an emergency room: hearing voices & seeing vosions is the classic sign of schizophrenia, they have medication that will alleviate those visual & auditory hallucinations. And please dont tell anyone that what you saw & heard was real"
wmprokipchak 1 month ago
amen
VarwijkDisea 1 month ago
religion is like a gang
castlezfinest1 1 month ago
Furthermore, if you are so inclined to argue against God, a far better approach than the argument from evil would be the principle of Occam's razor. Any sensible ontology (account of existence) will be as parsimonious as possible. Thus it will exclude all entities which are unnecessary. There is no good ontological argument for the necessity of God. There are ontological arguments, but they're bad. Postulating the existence of a god is multiplying entities beyond necessity.
jumperjess 1 month ago
No disrespect intended to Mr. Plantinga, but that argument really is a load of bollocks. I have yet to see any convincing evidence that we have free will to begin with. If someone can show good solid evidence of free will, then discussion of ethics and morals might become worthwhile. Until then, discussion of ethics and morals is a waste of time. The universe is just a large space filled with caused events. This is commonly accepted and is also inconsistent with free will.
jumperjess 1 month ago
this video left me highly unimpressed
Crosell 1 month ago
WTF America. That preposition is wrong. You can't tell whan god can and can not do. YOu can only state what you see. And what we see is evil all around. Therefore, god cannot exist or if he does, he's not a God. Fucking stop fucking trying to fucking find a fucking place for fucking religion for fucks fucking sake.
Soilpt 1 month ago
why would he put us on a planet, where half of our species would die before the age of maturity, as children, mostly because of disease. if he was all loving and all powerful why would he allow this? either he cant or he wont or he doesnt exist. if he cant, he is not omnipotent. if he wont then he is malevolent. the most likely answer is he just doesnt exist at all.
Keldrath 1 month ago
how does this account for nature and this planet being a death trap? apparently it only countd evil as moral evil. what about disease? what about famine? what about natural disasters?
Keldrath 1 month ago
So.... if we only can only do good we are not free, but if we do evil then we are punished.... yeah that REALLY sounds like fucking freedom.... Christianity is fucking STUPID.
TomoHawKzZ 1 month ago
If an all knowing anything existed, no free will could exist, you can't change the known. If you did manage to exercise your free will and achieve some other outcome, you would prove the fore knowledge wrong. Omniscience + free will = Oxymoron, it is a contradiction in terms. The fact we have free will, rules out the possibility of omniscience, and therefore God. The only love going on with an entity that demand devotion or else, is narcissistic self love.
Valthepixie 1 month ago
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I'm going to create man and woman with original sin. Then I'm going to impregnate a woman with myself as her child, so that I can be born. Once alive, I will kill myself as a sacrifice to myself. To save you from the sin I originally condemned you to.
- God
RagdollRalph 1 month ago
Adolf Hitler did not slaughter 50 million people, because he had the freedom to do so, he did it because he was pure evil, and your so called all knowing all power and all loving god watched as he did so, your "god" is a fucking joke
111reallybored 1 month ago
If God got rid of all evil in the world, that means HE'D GET RID OF ALL OF US!!! We'd be wiped from the face of this Earth. Mercy and Grace, do you see them now?
SES4L 1 month ago 10
@SES4L i agree to this!
rojiyayumi 1 month ago
@SES4L How dare you include me and mine in with your blanket assasination of humanity being evil. The root of human being is being humane. Not everyone needs to be bullied or goaded into being a good person with threat or reward to their egos of eternal existence. Which is utterly stupid seeing as any eternal existence would become a hell. Some people have a conscience and do the right thing simply because it's the right thing to do, they don't need ridiculous dark age fairy stories.
Valthepixie 1 month ago
So you're saying God is all powerful and yet at 1:09 you say he can't do something. That doesn't work.
xVENOMisEDGEx 1 month ago
So God wanted us to have free will? Think what makes us choose the way we choose. I don't think "free will" alone makes choises... Why did God create us the way that we do evil things?
Siipilintu 1 month ago
@Siipilintu He created us in a way that allows us to make choices. To choose to obey what He declares as right or to choose to dis-obey and choose what He has declared is wrong. He did not create us to do evil but he allowed us to make the choice. Giving evidence of His care for His creation. Because, if He made us without choice, what sort of love would we really be able to offer? The best love is the one that is freely given...
craftedashes 1 month ago
@craftedashes
What if God had given us free will, but not all the needs and urges that leads to evil? Then people would not want to do so much evil things. Is the will to do evil necessary for love that is good enough for God? Why we have so much anger and greed and such?
Siipilintu 1 month ago
@Siipilintu That is a great question. Think of what it must have been like in the beginning, the only possible "bad" was to make the choice to eat of the the tree that they were told not to eat from. Before that there was no knowledge of evil and we were created just the way you describe. Afterward came the knowledge and evil got progressively worse (though it did not take long). Does that make sense as described?
craftedashes 1 month ago
I'm not sure I get this, why does it matter whether people make morally right decisions freely or against their will? They make it sound like making a morally right decision freely is "worth more". What does that even mean? What does that even have to do with the original point?
jollyjollyO 1 month ago
Why are there natural disasters?
xphreakyphilx 1 month ago
@xphreakyphilx Because we are outside the tranquility of the Garden of Eden. As a result of The Fall, we live in a fallen sin cursed world where evil, disease and calamity are a natural consequence. One day, God's redeemed will eternally know peace and tranquility in the New Jerusalem.
luvmusic09 1 month ago
@luvmusic09 Why isn't the whole world like the garden of eden?
xphreakyphilx 1 month ago
@xphreakyphilx Well of course in order for this answer to be relevant to you, you would need to believe in the bible and it's teachings. But, in the bible Jesus tells us that in the end times, in other words, the times when Jesus is close to returning to earth, there will be signs. These signs consist of, pestilence, famine, war, and death. It speaks of people being without food, earthquakes, wars and diseases/sickness. Here are some bible verses: Mark 13:8, Matthew 24:7, Luke 21:11. Read.
Nicolew1010 1 month ago
This video addresses human evil, thinks it has outwitted the argument against evil, but actually misses what that argument addresses. Which is pain and suffering more than evil people, who we think behave with their own free will. Pain and suffering caused by disease, natural disaster, famine etc. these are not down to moral good or moral bad creatures yet still god lets them exist, which would make him morally bad or not exist the choice is yours. think again Alvin.
redjove2000 1 month ago 2
@redjove2000 well said.
AliveDog 1 month ago
@redjove2000 bitch please would you like to live in paradise then? not everything is bad, you have to be optimist there is something to learn and to appreciate from everything in life its hard though, but possible.
blaksephirot 1 month ago in playlist More videos from WhatisMedia
@blaksephirot Sorry, i'm not sure what your point is? My comment here is pointing out the obvious flaw in the argument presented in the video, and nothing to do with optimism or pessimism or saying everything is bad, you've missed the point entirely. Maybe it went over your head. Try reading it again more slowly this time, maybe get an adult to help you with the big words. Appreciate that, bitch.
redjove2000 1 month ago
@redjove2000 The Bible says Jesus is the exact representation of God's being. He went around healing the sick and raising the dead, which shows that it's not God's will for those things to exist and He doesn't "allow" them to exist. So why is that stuff still here? Jesus told His church to go out and do what He did (Heal the sick, raise the dead, etc.) Instead they decided to sit in buildings their whole life and sing songs. So blame the church for being lazy and irresponsible, not God.
SaintsnotSinners 1 month ago
@SaintsnotSinners If disasters and sickness exist but god cant stop them, then how can he be omnipotent and therefore god. If they exist and god created the universe he must by definition have created them. If he didn't then how can he be god, and if he did he is immoral.
redjove2000 1 month ago
@redjove2000 He commissioned His church to stop that stuff. Instead His church decided to call it "God's sovereign plan or judgment!" every time it happens and they tolerate it and make excuses for it to exist. So don't blame God for that stuff, blame the church for being lazy and irresponsible and caring more about their traditions than they do about the people Jesus told them to help.
SaintsnotSinners 1 month ago
@SaintsnotSinners No, you're either deliberately not getting my very simple point, or you're an idiot. If he allows sickness and disasters then he is immoral, he does not need a church to stop them for him, if he does he is not all powerful and therefore not a god. You cannot blame humans for anything god allows to happen, or say he doesn't allow it, because an ALL POWERFUL being is allowing it to happen otherwise he is not ALL POWERFUL. Or just maybe he doesn't exist. I cant put it any simpler.
redjove2000 1 month ago
@redjove2000 You're the one not getting it. He wants relationship with people. What happens in relationship? You participate and work together with the person you are in relationship with. Relationships where one person does EVERYTHING while the other person sits on their ass and does nothing, are usually unhealthy.
I might be able to agree with you that he doesn't exist if I haven't actually seen people impossibly healed :P. You're going by what you haven't seen, I'm going by what I have.
SaintsnotSinners 1 month ago
@SaintsnotSinners The god you describe is neither omnipotent or omniscient then.So therefore not god. I mean how can you have a relationship with someone when you know whats going to happen to them, what they think etc. Also on the impossibly healed thing, people sometimes attribute spontaneous remission to god, in the case of cancer for instance, but never the spontaneous regrown limb. Possibly because god has never regrown someones limb, ever. Why cancer and not damage caused by polio?
redjove2000 4 weeks ago
@SaintsnotSinners I'll tell you why, because the immune system can and does fight cancer, and in some very lucky people help cure them. The immune system however is utterly useless at regrowing limbs, as is the rest of the body. One things for sure gods got absolutely nothing to do with it. Because he doesn't exist.
redjove2000 4 weeks ago
@redjove2000 You're forgetting one main element that defines God and his immanence in this physical world: Love. What would you be willing to sacrifice for the love you have towards your mother or your family? are you willing to suffer any level of pain and suffering for them (disease, natural disaster)? I would. That's exactly what Jesus (God in flesh) did when he let himself be crucified by man and by evil (free will). He did it because of love, so what wouldn't you do for love?..
kaiyno 2 weeks ago
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clizzaster 1 month ago
one problem god is all knowing so he knows past, present and future, so if he knows our future how can there be free will?
TheEliasRav 1 month ago
@TheEliasRav Thats a divide between is future a straight line?
or is it like a tree with many branches and even more appearing the farther you go?
0Maloy1 1 month ago
@0Maloy1 yes, you could be right but still if god is all knowing he would know the outcome of every single branch
TheEliasRav 1 month ago
@0Maloy1 plus since he know's everything he would also know what branch we would follow
TheEliasRav 1 month ago
@TheEliasRav He would know the probability. Few things you do are in actuality 100% decided. As God he would exist in past present, and in all outcomes of the future, so, he would know what happens in each of those personally, and so, would have to wait until the moment it actually happens for those other branches to close off.
We also have a massive amount of different forces in this world trying to move us this way and that, both literally and metaphorically.
0Maloy1 1 month ago
@0Maloy1 good answer... still in the end only one branch will be fulfilled thus the other branches will never happen, as if they never existed. If god ( wether he exists or not, and wether he is the theological one) is all knowing he will most certainly know the outcome so even if there where branches there existence would be useless, only one branch will take place and he already knows which one. free will cannot exist if god is all knowing.
TheEliasRav 1 month ago
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TheEliasRav 1 month ago
@0Maloy1 I would like to finish this discussion by saying that unfortunately, the only way to understand which argument is better, is to prove not only if god exists but also to comprehend what type of god he is ( theistic, deistic or pantheistic) and to understand his characteristics. so until then there is no winner , so the only thing we can do in the mean time is to continuously reflect on this argument and if he doesn't exist, at least we found a way to keep are minds at work.
TheEliasRav 1 month ago
@TheEliasRav Lol point taken. Historically the argument favors Christianity.Your argument on the post before does not really make sense. Tomorrow has not definitively been decided yet. Its not decided until it actually happens. So, other branches remain open until its already happened. Example: Obama has a set schedule for everyday, but minor things we can not know for sure what will happen. Will one of his secretaries spill coffee on a document again because she forgets to put it on her left?
0Maloy1 1 month ago
@0Maloy1
Why are you equating libertarian free will and Christianity? There is a long Christian tradition, centered now mainly around Calvinism, which denies free will. They believe the future is just as set in stone as the past, and the fates of the saved and damned were all irreversibly decided by God before the world was created.
AdamdeMalyns 1 month ago
@AdamdeMalyns Not all express support for that either, I have scriptural reasons not to support it. Although I did at one point, I was thoroughly schooled when I tried to prove my point on it.
0Maloy1 1 month ago
@0Maloy1 i don't agree for the simple fact that there is no such thing as coincidence, Every action has a reaction and well if the universe was created by god he would be the first action. All knowing does not only mean that he knows past present and future but he knows everything about everything including physics and mathematics so i don't think he would have a hard time calculating the probability of which branch will happen. from your description god doesn't seem that smart.
TheEliasRav 1 month ago
@TheEliasRav It certainly does have a reaction, but not every reaction is intentional, and we are still sentient beings capable of independent thought(Although I'd argue that some people are willingly sheep in a flock) Their are other forces in this world(action wise not just spiritually) and we ourselves are a force.
On this topic, I believe for most of our young lives we are in fact just following how we were raised lead too etc. But at some point we develop enough to think and act indepedant
0Maloy1 1 month ago
@TheEliasRav Let me try to clear up what I just said in my last comment. He does see the probability, but that does not mean he acts on it. Certainly people who are deserving of death are acted upon, but it does say in the Bible that God does not give up on those who still have a chance of coming to him. For he wants and loves man with all his heart.
That said, we can see from individuals like the Devil, that just knowing the truth does not necessarily imply that you will choose to follow it.
0Maloy1 1 month ago
Search for "Is God Good?" here on YouTube. Then click on the one who is made by Zangomatic. The reason for why God created evil, is if not, it wouldn't be any choises to take. No choise = No freedom. But God wanted us to be free. That's why evil exist. Then, evil is in one way good, because God created it so people could have freedom.
MissMariMiss 1 month ago
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@MissMariMiss
What about suffering and death not cause by man's "free will": natural disasters, disease, lightning strikes?
clizzaster 1 month ago
To all of you who's still in confusion. Cold exist because the absence of Heat. Darkness exist because the absence of Light. Hate exist because the absence of Love. Bad/Evil exist because the absence of Love of God. The only gift, that God will never take away, is FREEDOM so we have a choice. The Bible is the hardest thing to understand because it is full of metaphors and symbols. We must not understand the Bible, literally speaking but the deeper sense of it. for Example our first parent. :)
lordmykill143 1 month ago
Why does this video have so many dislikes? It provides a reasonable argument for a frequently asked question.
0Maloy1 1 month ago
This was actually refreshing. Theists rarely present logic in their arguments. This was, at least for me, an original presentation. Here's my main objection. It's not so much that suffering is a problem as it relates to humans. It's also quite prevalent in nature. Life is and has always been a constant struggle. The vast majority of all species that ever lived, more than 98%, are now extinct. There are more failed species than successful ones. Why would a loving God design things this way?
anzwertree 1 month ago
@anzwertree In the Bible, it says that after Eden the Devil was allowed to take control of the Earth, he is the one who causes all issues in the Bible, and man originally chose him over God. I only know the Christian view you'd have to ask someone else about other religions
0Maloy1 1 month ago
@0Maloy1 I know the story of sin and where it supposedly came from. But I asked why nature was filled with suffering, Why are most species now long since dead? Just take all humans away from the planet, and it would still be a difficult place to live. Animals must fight for survival, against disease and competition from other animals. This has been going on millions of years. It has nothing to do with something that happened a few thousand years ago. Nature has always been rough
anzwertree 1 month ago
@anzwertree Yeah one Theory says the Days that God let pass inbetween each individual thing he created on Earth, was just a metaphor to help explain how little time it is to him, and that in actuality the days themselves were actually massive amounts of time different.
Animals have for the most part kept themselves in balance, a disaster would happen or a species gets thinned out sufficiently enough and the entire field changes. Devil takes it to the extreme with his destruction.
0Maloy1 1 month ago
Oh dear... Moral evil isn't the only kind of evil that exists. Either they accidentally made an embarrassing logical misstep or they are intentionally trying to mislead people.
aquateeno 1 month ago
Im 13 and im at that stage when i want to choose my faith,im a fellow christian and belive that if god could stop evil he would but only to people who truly deserve to be saved from it, for example Stanley Praimnath, survivor of the 11th of september attacks was a fellow strong christian, on the day of 9/11 he was at his desk on the 81st floor of the south tower when he spotted the second plane, not having time to react he shouted "lord i cant do this,you take over" and he moved under his desk
Hazzasproductions 1 month ago
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CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG IN ANY WAY. God Created everything, God planned everything ( a.k.a. God's will ), noone / nothing can change God's will. With that being said, God made me atheist, i did not CHOSE to be atheist because i cannot change God's will, he made me atheist. By what beleivers say, i will burn in hell for all eternity because im atheist...But God made me this way, so God purposely Creates people just to send them to hell. :-) HAPPY FACE
imthetank3 2 months ago
What The Fuck??
This is some Bullshit
Man Fuck God I Hate This Shit
I'm Going Back To Being An Atheist, Fuck This
ssohood2011 2 months ago
@ssohood2011 sorry brah, nobody cares
x69Crunchyx 1 month ago
Unfortunately the bible refutes this point repeately having god punish evildoers in this lifetime. If you commit an "evil" act god will drown you (even if you are a feotus), if you are "evil" and happen to live on land god promised to the isrealites he will kill you, if you are a bunch of youths and you call his prophet "baldy" then god will kill you, if you get a little out of hand while your leader is carving tablets up on the mountain god will order your family to kill you.
phookadude 2 months ago
@AustinB40 but didn't god make the devil? So by design god made evil.
hrsqsiest 2 months ago
Answer this. If everything happens by gods design, then where does free will come in?
hrsqsiest 2 months ago
The Fact is more People who have Lived on this Earth Died not being a Christian. So whats the point of Creating Humans when in the End Most Burn in Hell Anyway, it's Pointless.
ssohood2011 2 months ago
Well to argue about this evil,pain,and suffering don't exist because of god but of the devil.
AustinB40 2 months ago
This is a really terrible argument. It almost seems intentionally confusing.
EuphoniousCrunk 2 months ago
So why me makes Earthquakes? ;)
tabeus 2 months ago
So what you've done here is conduct a thought experiment which basically proves the bible wrong, so you could argue against another thought experiment which proves your god wrong. You're grasping at straws, bending over backwards to avoid the truth.
SezSays 2 months ago
Where were you doubters at the beginning? Did you create the marvels of the universe? Did you breath life unto the earth? Did you put the moon in perfect place? Were you the writer of the seasons. Did the ground spring forth at your command? Where were you when it all began? Where we your scientist?
lutert 2 months ago
@lutert
no. only brahma did that.
castelgandalf 2 months ago
@lutert Your such an Idiot
Some people Seriously need God, they Need a Voice in their Head to Tell them what's Right & Wrong. If your that Kind of Person, Please Continue Believing.
ssohood2011 2 months ago
@ssohood2011 Some People Need To Learn That Not Every Word Out On Their Key Board Needs To Be Capitalized.
NoughNeaux 2 months ago
@NoughNeaux Some people Capitalize Important words in their Comment to bring about their Point... besides this is my Comment Box lol
ssohood2011 2 months ago
If he's all-powerful he can defy logic and make anything he wants...
Triipticz 2 months ago
@nasia97 Exactly. He would know when an earthquake is about to happen if he knows all. He would want to stop it is he loves all. He could stop it if he is all powerful but he doesn't. #contradictory
Z6D4C4 2 months ago
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WHAT IS CREATION
Is a very nice revelation from God that deals with why we are here in this physic reality where there is evil and suffering. NEWMESSAGE(.org) Special teachings, part of a very recent message from God
worldwiderelease 2 months ago
this does not explain why there is natural evil for example earth quakes which kill hundreds of people.
nasia97 2 months ago
@nasia97 how is a earth quake, typhoon or a tornado evil? these are natural occurances. is it evil when a pack of wolves kill a deer, no it's not. nature is a beautiful yet at times savage thing.
dusty8512 2 months ago