Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, Ilan Pappe - Part2

[nevskixx]

I'm off. Good night!

[nevskixx]

Pappe uses the term "demographic control" over minorities but yet disregards the need that the Jews had for a sanctuary against persecution and calls this need "racialist". This attempt to redefine terms in order to denegrate those who sought to ideally create a homeland for jews and a democracy for all residents in the land (see Israel's Declaration of Independence) is deliberately omitted by Pappe to fit his own theories. This is shallow history!

[Dream23fb]

It's racist because the idea was to create a Jewish super majority. Hence the ethnic cleansing.

[nevskixx]

Dream, by adding the word "super" with implied reference to "super race" , a Nazi terminology you are actually equating Jews or Zionists, most who have to be Jewish with, with Nazism.Let me remind you that under the Partition Plan194, there were to be 2 states; one with a Jewish majority and the other with an Arab majority. The Arabs rejected it and went to war with the intention of wiping the Jews out with ethnic cleansing on their minds.The Arabs lost at a cost in lives of 1/10 of the Jews .

[Dream23fb]

Um, super majority does not mean super race. Are you kidding me? I am talking about statistics, not race.

And the '47 partition plan was nonsense. Although Arabs were the majority population of the region, they got less land in area and less fertile land than Jewish immigrants?

Arabs went to war with Israel because they were driving Palestinians onto their border. These were ragtag armies that did not amount to 1/3 the size of the Israeli army. And the battles were not fought on Jewish land.

[nevskixx]

There is nothing racist in Jews wishing to live where they are a majority rather than a minority. To deny them self-determination is racist. The Jewish people lost a 1/3 of its number in the last war. To say they intended to ethnically cleanse Arabs so that they could have a "super" majority is not only factually wrong but that is also part of antisemitic discourse. I am not saying you are antisemitic Dream, but that you have adopted antisemitic sentiments that are the opposite to what happened

[Dream23fb]

Self-determination at the expense of whom? I support a Jewish Israeli state. But I support a Palestinian state as well. Do you support the right for Palestine to exist? Do you believe in the Palestinian right to self-determination? There's a double standard for Zionists: Israel has the right to exist, but Palestinians do not.

As for antisemitism, such nonsense. I have great respect for Judaism as a religion and the contributions Jews have made to law, science, etc. I know Hebrew btw.

[nevskixx]

As it happens, the majority in Israel advocate a "2 state solution" that would give Palestinians the right to set up their own government and have their own laws, religion and other attributes that any independent state should be entitled to have. The creation of Israel was not an attempt to displace that right. I have no problem with this. What is stopping this from happening and had stopped from happening before is the avowed aim of Arab leaders to want to kill Jews (not Israeli Arabs).

[Dream23fb]

Then what is up with the growing numbers of the "Greater Israel" crowd in Israel and America? It looks like, through occupation and territorial division, Israel is trying to annex the West Bank and Gaza to Israel. Many Zionists want this and you know it.

[nevskixx]

I am not a believer in expansionism or for a "greater" Israel Dream. There are elements in Israeli society that advocate this, that is true, but the real reasons for retaining the settlements are complex. Primarily it is about security. Partly also that the 1967 ceasefire lines are not necessarily to be the defined future boundaries of a palestinian and Israeli States. Increased security has been applied following suicide bombings. Israel withdrew from Gaza, but this did not stop attacks.

[Dream23fb]

But they didn't withdraw. They still control the area. The IDF is allowed to do whatever they want. The Jewish settlers get to destroy Palestinian farmland and kick Palestinians out of their homes. It's like a prison. Yes, the prisoners get to live on most of the prison in terms of area and the guards live on only a portion of it, but who actually controls the prison? The guards or the prisoners?

[nevskixx]

Dream, that's a misnomer if ever there was one. As soon as Israeli troops withdrew, and the settlements were disbanded, the Palestinians declared this a victory and promised more violence, on which they performed. Palestinians from Gaza often crossed into Israel to work before, but suicide attacks meant security had to be tightened. Egypt too has sealed its border (to a degree). The tunnel and arms business is in full swing with Iran/ hezbollah and al-quaeda operatives helping out.Many suffer.

[nevskixx]

Dream, I did not call you an antisemite. By using the word "super" majority , you have applied a different standard to judge Jews. No one calls India for the Indians, Iran for the Iranians, America for the Americans as "super" majorities. But when it comes to Israel for the Jews, there are double standards attached. That is why I describe it as antisemitic discourse.. Sadly this kind of thinking has entered the mainstream in Europe and in the US.

[Dream23fb]

Do you watch the American media? Unconditionally pro-Israel. You should have seen the coverage when Obama/Clinton called for the freeze of Jewish settlements. It was as if they publicly called for the destruction of Israel. It was truly amazing.

As for the super majority, please explain Plan Dalet in terms of Zionist goals of Palestine. What were they trying to accomplish? Why expel hundreds of thousands of Palestinians for no other reason but to create a Jewish majority in Palestine?

[nevskixx]

I cannot believe with someone of your intelligence can deduce that a call by President Obama and Hilary Clinton on Israel to freeze settlements is tantamount to a call for its destruction, though you seem to relish the thought. American policy is very pro Israel, true, but it has not always been so. Obama calls on Israel to curtail settlements, since it is perceived by the US, rightly or wrongly that for Arabs it is the greatest stumbling block to making peace.

[nevskixx]

Obama also sees Iran (as Israel does too ) as a real threat to its interests and seeks to unite support from Arabs, who also fear a nuclear armed rising superpower. Hence the reduction of early warning systems in Eastern Europe, in the hope (and that is all it is, a hope) that Russia will join efforts to apply sufficient pressure on Iran. The problem is that many pro Israelis see the folly and dangers in assuming that this is a realistic solution.That is why they are upset.

[Dream23fb]

We know how to deal with Iran. We were able to contain Russia, which was a far more powerful force than Iran is now, during the Cold War. We already have components of a middle east defense shield to guard against Iran. Iran has already decided to allow the UN inspectors although it's not clear if they will truly cooperate. A lot of the fears are simply existential.

[nevskixx]

I'll respond to some of your other points another time, but there are distinct differences between the former Soviet Union and Europe after the war and the rise of Islamic fundamentalism that seeks glorification in death through Jihad. Ideologically, western interests are seriousy under threat. There is great confusion on what to do to about Iran. Dream. All sides are acutely aware of this. What if diplomacy fails?

[Dream23fb]

I think so-called "Islamic fundamentalism" is overrated in terms of its strength. Are you referring to the "Twelvers" for Iran? If so, I don't see what this has to do with their foreign policy. I'm not a fan of the Iranian government, but when was the last time they invaded a country?

We express everything in that region in terms of religion because it is the easiest/laziest explanation when in fact there's a lot more to it than that. This is consistent with Edward Said's "Orientalism" thesis.

[nevskixx]

Some ways of thinking are so absurd to the minds of ordinary beings that it is hard to ever conceive the thought or even come to believe of possibilities that are beyond one. Yet it is very human to cross boundaries in thought, to say and commit to reality. Many speeches we hear glorify death. We can ignore it and it might all go away,or we can act early by condemning and if necessary standing up to it. Islam , unfortunately is the vehicle transporting these thoughts into words and action

[nevskixx]

The real target by those who seek to benefit from conflict is Tthe United States. Israel is its diversion. Make everyone feel guilty about what was done to the Palestinians, demonise it and when it is gone, what then? Iran has never had conflict with Israel before yet it is behind much of the financing and support of terrorists. Twelvers or not, there are serious concerns. Europe has weakened its resolve already.

[nevskixx]

I'm glad you are in charge Dream!

[Dream23fb]

Let's compare, shall we? Iran ranks higher on the Global Peace Index than Israel. Total Aircraft Israel (1220, state of the art) Iran (84, mostly old F4's) Military Budget Israel(13 bn, not including nukes) Iran (7bn) Wars launched on neighbors: Israel (56, 67, 82, 2006, 2008-09) Iran (ZERO) Nukes Israel (200), Iran (0) Land weapons Israel (14,200)  Iran (5,449) POPULATION Israel (7.2mn) Iran (70 mn)

[nevskixx]

My comment to this is simple. Israel's has focused heavily on its defence because over the years it has been surrounded by so many enemies. Iran is a heavy backer of Hezbolla and Hamas and have caused great misery to millions of Palestinians, Lebanese and Israelis. Their intentions are deliberately obscured. With the leader's deliberate attempt tp play down Holocaust history, many (not all) see this as a serious existential threat.

[Dream23fb]

You see it as defense, I see it as aggression. Just look at the 1982 invasion of Lebanon. Israel killed over 20,000 Lebanese and Palestinians. This is self-defense?

The Holocaust denying attitude of A'jad is disgusting. It's been condemned. No one reasonable denies that he is an anti-Semite. But A'jad is not the supreme leader. He does not set foreign policy and does not control Iran's forces. So at this point, it is only an existential threat. Sadly Israeli victimization respond to them.

[nevskixx]

You make a fair comment about Lebanon. It was a fiasco and tragedy, but again the PLO have to take some sponsibility for having nested themselves in South Lebanon attacking regulary with Katyushas which the people of northern Israel had to live with. The war was unjustified to the extent that Isael's strategy of creating a Christian alliance was confused and contributed to the cause of many losses. BUT over the 60 year history, but for a strong defence, Israel would have been destroyed.

[Dream23fb]

You can't blame the PLO. Israel was bombing Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon before PLO ever irritated Northern Lebanon. Interesting how Southern Lebanon is part of the "Greater Israel", I wonder if that's just a coincidence that Israel invaded and occupied it until Hizbullah freed the Lebanon.

Read "Pity the Nation" by Robert Fisk for a detailed account of the events that took place. Truly disgusting. And Israelis end up electing war criminal Ariel Sharon.

[Dream23fb]

**I meant Northern Israel, but I'm sure you know what I meant.

[nevskixx]

All war is horrible Dream. I do not think Israel had claims over southern Lebanon as has sometimes been argued, nor will it hold on to territory that should be given over to an arab leadership intent to make the peace. Both sides need to do it and both sides need to cooperate. It will not be easy for both sides. And I believe it must be done without third party interference. It could happen soon, but more likely over a longer timescale and when antisemitism is being condemned in the Arab world.

[Dream23fb]

"All war is horrible." That's what the Nazis tried to argue. "It was war. Shit happens." It's a BS line and unacceptable.

There's no way that a peace deal can be made without a 3rd party, i.e. the US. The key is that the US must truly be a neutral 3rd party, not one that is clearly on the side of Israel so that they can blame the Arabs when Israel decides to back out of the peace deal (see Taba after Camp David).

As for GI, look at how angry Zionists were when Jordan was recognized by Israel.

[nevskixx]

I think the US tried and may still try. The resolve to end conflict comes from the parties in the dispute. I happen to think that the US in 2000 did not help that much, the Israelis pressed for peace too quickly and Arafat was not that interested in peace but saving his skin (and the stolen millions!). Nazis did not argue war as horrible.When they were winning they were happy. Maybe when they were losing they thought it was horrible.

[Dream23fb]

Israel, with respect with what they were legally entitled to, NOT what they wanted, did not make any concessions for peace. All the concessions came from the Palestinians. And even then, all they got was a stateless state in return. The plan was bogus.

I don't like Arafat btw, but for different reasons. He was not an intelligent leader, a terrible negotiator, and one who did not properly defend his people with courage.

[nevskixx]

I agree with you for once about Arafat. But I give him more intelligence than you do. The 2nd Intifada erupted soon after negotiations broke down. It was seriously questionable as to whether he desired peace from the outset or camouflaged his intentions. But a liar he was and the last person who saw him in Paris was his accountant, which tells us a lot.

[nevskixx]

As for "I'm a dinner jacket", do you honstly think he could get away with such views unless he had the approval of the Supreme Leader. Which head of the Medusa are you talking to here?

[Dream23fb]

Well you're phrasing the question in a way that's impossible to answer. It should be noted that Iran has the largest population of Jews outside of Israel and the vast majority of them are against Israeli policies against their neighbors. Look at their protests against Israel's latest massacre in Gaza which was called a crime against humanity.

Without evidence, Iran is only an existential threat in the minds of Zionists who just want to raise their deterrence capacity against Muslim countries.

[nevskixx]

Perhaps to be fair , you should compare Iran with say the huge arms deals going to Saudi. The Muddle East is a highly militarised zone where lots of western interests are being served with lucrative arms deals effected regularly. Is Israel REALLY the cause of it?

[Dream23fb]

I did not say YOU said that, I said some Zionists in America were expressing it in such a way.

The settlements are CRUCIAL. How can this be denied? Mayors of Jewish settlements have admitted that they are there precisely to prevent a Palestinian state. Why do the Jewish settlements get greater control of the water and utility services although they are a minority? Why are only 20% of crimes committed by the settlers against Palestinians go on to be prosecuted? It is an apartheid system.

[nevskixx]

Think carefully Dream. Before 1967, there were no settlements, but this did not stop aggression and a desire to push the Jews into the sea. When under Jordan and Egypt, what stopped a Palestine being put on the map between 1948-67? This is where this argument falls down. What happened at the Khartoum conferenceshortly after: 3 nos': No to recognition, no to negotiation and no to peace.

[Dream23fb]

Again with the "Jews into the sea" imagery? No Arab has ever said that. Zionists made them up an attributed it to Ahmad Shuqayri. However, no one has been able to find the quote, in any of his books or statements.

Between '48-66, Palestinians tried the non-violent route. It didn't work:

1. Israeli government did a good job in suppressing the protests (democracy!)

2. The world didn't take notice

With regard to Jordan and Egypt, you're talking about many factors! Not enough space to discuss.

[nevskixx]

If a sea picture was not on the minds of the Arab League in 1948 perhaps this unfortunate quote might confirm to you murderous intent expressed. I say unfortunate to be charitable, because it quite possibly was said in the wind of excitement at a possible thought of it realistically happening:Azzam Pasha, the Arab League Secretary, declared on Cairo radio: "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."

[nevskixx]

How about this little quote from Shuqayri?

We shall destroy Israel and its inhabitants, declared PLO head Ahmed Shuqayri, and as for the survivors if there are any the boats are ready to deport them.

What a decent chap!

[Dream23fb]

nevskixx, do you really want to play this game? Do you want me to quote what Zionists have said about Arabs? Describing them as animals and subhumans? Wishing total genocide on the Palestinian population from American conservatives? Wanting the Dome of the Rock bombed because it is on a Jewish temple? I can go on and on.

[nevskixx]

I am sure you can put a collection of abhorrent quotes together, which I would not defend unless untrue, but I should remind you that you raised a challenge about Shuqayri, not me. They are abhorrent to Israelis and Jews.

[Dream23fb]

I raised a challenge about Shuqayri about a specific quote, the throw the Jews into the sea imagery which is continually used by Zionists to make Israel the victim when it is crystal clear that they are the aggressor. No one has ever been able to find the quote which shows how Zionists lie in order to set their agenda. And it works very well. I did not say Shuqayri has never made any questionable statements.

[nevskixx]

Plan Dalet had nothing to do with Super majorities, It was a military option to be taken during a war in which Arabs had been largely hostile and the Haganna were engaged in reprisals and counter reprisals. I think you should focus on the intensely hateful plans the Arab armies had in store for the Jews. As I said, 1/10 of the Jewish population lost their lives in the war of Independence. The threat of extinction was real.

[Dream23fb]

The sources, as studied by Ilan Pappe, have shown that Plan Delat was not a defensive strategy, but a plan to simply get rid of the Palestinians. This is well documented. Every Zionist massacre of Palestinian villages has been noted. It's not just the physical damage that's important, but the destruction of the Palestinian culture itself. Zionists deny the very Palestinian people themselves and thereby dismiss Palestinian art, music, poetry, literature, food, and history. It's tragic.

[nevskixx]

"The sources, as studied by Ilan Pappe..."

And this is the problem. Period. Pappe's whole premise is that there was a plan from the outset to ethnically cleanse Palestine. That there are over 1 million Arabs in Israel proper and that there has been population growth among the Arabs both in numbers and economic progress puts a lie to this silly theory. It is an attractive theory to those who see Israel in very narrow ideological terms , but it is not truth. Music, literature, film, food PLENTY

[Dream23fb]

Why is Pappe a less credible source than Benny Morris? Morris, who is an anti-Arab racist, has stated that he wished Zionists did a better job in the ethnic cleansing so that Israel would not have the current Palestinian problem. The ethnic cleansing is historical fact. In Israel, the debate is not whether or not it occurred, but whether or not it was morally justified. The only people who are still questioning Nakba are American and European Zionists. Israelis have conceded the point.

[nevskixx]

Here are my concerns about Pappe's and by his own admission in an interview he gave to a Belgian newspaper in 1999:

"I admit that my ideology inluences my historical writings, but so what?I mean it is the same for everybody..Indeedthe struggle is about ideology, not about facts(haha)Who knows what facts are?WE try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of ther facts is the correct one, and we do it because of idelogical reasons, not because we are truth seekers"

[Dream23fb]

I haven't seen this quote, but Pappe makes an unremarkable statement. Every historian has an ideology. When I read Bernard Lewis, I expect a certain viewpoint. When I read EJ Hobsbawm, I expect a radically different one. The question is why are the writings of Zionists such as B.Morris considered more factual than the writings of anti-Zionists like Pappe? Why is anti-Zionism considered less scholarly than Zionism?

(fyi: we're going on and on, I don't mind. As long as you respond, I'll respond)

[nevskixx]

It is regularly posited that anti-zionism and zionism are polar opposites. They are not. If one is anti-american, it is never expressed in terms that America should be disbanded. But with Israel, which is a homeland for Jews and zionism being a national movement, being anti-Israel or anti-Zionist is a denial of the Jewish right to self-determination. I would say that is antisemitic.

[Dream23fb]

Contemporary anti-Zionism is the criticism of Israeli policy of their neighbors. I support a two-state solution because it is probably the only practical solution to the problem provided that Israel does not play their games. However, in theory, what is wrong with one, democratic, secular state for all to live in? The future of Zionism is not bright. A highly militarized state like Israel can not survive forever. I give Israel 60 years before it destroys itself. I'd rather not see that.

[nevskixx]

There is plenty of criticism of Israeli policy without it being anti-zionist. I also support a 2 state solution and one of them is Israel. If there was one democratic state, the Arabs would never agree to it. The future of the world is not bright, never mind Zionism. How old are you Dream? I'll wait the 60 years and we can talk then.

[Dream23fb]

I hopefully will be around then. I'm 23. I'm young, but I'm well read and know the languages of the region (Arabic, Hebrew, French + others).

I disagree with your argument. The policies of Israel with regard to their neighbors is not about security, it's about the ideology of Zionism. More land for the Jewish state. Israel can have peace tomorrow if they want to. The only way there's a Palestinian state is when Israel decides that it is better for Zionism to have one. That will take time.

[nevskixx]

Change the subject a mo. I see you enjoy Bach on the cello. Have you heard Pablo Casals play the suites?

[Dream23fb]

Yea! I try to watch as many versions as I can. But I like Mischa Maisky the best.

[nevskixx]

Are you familiar with the Bach violin partitas and sonatas. There are some wonderful versions of them on You Tube.

I remember hearing Maisky perform all the Suites in London one summer. It was a very hot summer and Maisky changed his shirt after each Suite. It was a memorable 2 evenings. I have also heard Tortelier, whose approach to these works was very different.

[Dream23fb]

I'd have to check those out. Thx!

[nevskixx]

One can ask: Is it possible to be anti-zionist and not be antisemitic. The answer is, only if the same terms applied to zionism are applied across the board to all states. If you like, one is an adherent to the Marxian idea that the state withers. But one would have to be anti-Palestinian

[Dream23fb]

Native Palestinians, many of whom were born in present day Israel, are not allowed to go back to their country but Jews from all over the world can? What nonsense! Imagine how the world would look like if everyone decided to go back to their original root location, wherever that may be, and kick out the native population under the name of self-determination. Native Palestinian Jews wanting to create a homeland in Palestine is one thing, but colonialist Europeans?

[nevskixx]

Jews from all over the world can. That's correct. And why do you think that is so?

[nevskixx]

You asked me previously whether I thought Pappe was a "self-hating Jew". I did not answer, because I am not too sure what this exactly means and do not resort to it. Someone I read recently commenting on this very point said that Pappe , like a very few other Jews,has been superseded by the extreme ideological based identity which now more properly defines him.

[Dream23fb]

"Self-hating Jew" is not my term, it's how Zionists describe Jews who dare to tell the truth about Israel. Pappe and his family were threatened. I think Pappe explains his situation well. Here is an Oxford educated scholar who could have been held as a great example of what Israel can offer (unlike those Arabs). He could have been an ambassador for Israel or a minister if only he toed the line. Instead, he told the truth and it struck a nerve. Hence the anger towards him.

[nevskixx]

I'm not here to defend Morris but I do not see him using the term "ethnic cleansing" There were expulsions that Morris believes that at the time were justified but that these expulsions were precipitated by Arab and Palestinian violence. The Naqba was an unfortunate cosequence of civil war and hostilities created at the time. Let's not forget the Arab reaction to Jews living in Arabia and the mass expulsions and attacks that followed . All in all a tragedy for many.

[nevskixx]

Correction: It was 1 percent of the population. Less than a 1/10th obviously but very signicant.

[nevskixx]

Pappe speaks of a 1/3 Jewish population 2/3 Arab in the 1930s saying that most zionists were new, but does not refer to the onesided British policy on immigration that encouraged many new Arab settlement but placed restrictions on Jewish settlement and that many Arabs arrived and settled in Palestine during the early years of the British mandate. Nor does he talk about the creation of Transjordan in 1922.

[Dream23fb]

A lie to explain the numbers of the current native Palestinians.

[nevskixx]

What lie? Read History.Read about the White Paper 1939 that limited Jewish immigration to 75000 to Palestine between 1940-44 and on restrictions put on Jews to BUY land. There was at the time of new Jewish settlement from the turn of the century some Arab migration. In 1917 Arab population was around 650000 (Ottomon records were not accurate).What lie are you talking about?

[Dream23fb]

Read Ilan Pappe's "A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples" and Pappe's "The Making of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1947-1951".

Do you consider him a self-hating Jew?

[nevskixx]

Pappe refers to a Palestinian awareness in the 1930s as the zionist movement grew but omits to discuss Haj Amin Husseini's intense antisemitism that manifested in a lot of violence against Jews, for example on the peaceful Jewish community in Hebron in 1929 that was ruthlessly set upon resulting in a massacre of 69 Jews. Before the 1930s and the rise of Hitler.

[Dream23fb]

Arabs died in Hebron too. You conveniently neglect that.

[liamleahy]

Don't move the camera...or buy a better camera and tripod. Thanks anyways.

[X0Angelfromheaven0X]

The only way of Peace is a state Palestine where also Juwds can live.