People & Politics | 60 Years of German-Polish Relations

[iLowGasPricesx]

3:28 - 3:40 funniest bit.

[realdealforsure]

@EsqDave with the final annihilation of German nation....

[Satmae]

I guess poles wanted to be much closer to west and much further away from russia and presented some old branderburg and saxony(including prussia homage) agreements and intermarriages which helped the move away from russia

[adgw1423]

Poland certainly was moved quite far West from its traditional territory (look at a map of Poland post WWI) However, one can understand the feeling post WWII to try and prevent further German aggression. The tens of millions of Germans forcibly moved out of E. Europe is a largely untold story, and millions died. We all certainly recognize the suffering of the Poles in WW2. Simply put, this was a nasty situation all around. We are in a new century, and best wishes for a new era of friendship

[kantonerei]

Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia are German!!!

[Satmae]

@kantonerei

You are wrong german is not german its Prussian if u wish to look at german country look at austria swiss or lichtenstein. None of those lands were ever 'german' - prussian - ur land was called West Prussia. You were never kingdom and was never seen as proper state - prussians invaded states from fallen holy roman empire and putted their own Duke *u never had a king. In history Prussia was equal to Russia under Catharine - basically no right to rule - germany was created to fix that

[realdealforsure]

@kantonerei said Adolf and pulled the triger

[wigo2008]

well, Germany could always find a chance to retake land.

[godstargodstar]

The Nuremberg Trials of German Nazi leaders declared forced deportation of civilian populations to be both a war crime and a crime against humanity but when its Germans its legal!!

[ruzzaruzza]

Hmm.. I just wonder if france did a similar thing as we did in the former Czechoslovakia. After the WWII we deported something around 2 million Czechoslovak ethnic-germans who were (willingly or unwillingly) with the Nazi party. My family lives in a house that used to belong to germans who were deported. However you have to note the fact that the majority of the people who were deported were the supporters of the Nazi regime (responsible for killing Czechoslovak Jews and Gypsies).

[ruzzaruzza]

I feel bad about the Germans who did not agree with the nazi regime and were robbed of their land and deported. But that is not to say I don´t agree with the deportation as a whole. I do agree with it.

[godstargodstar]

Yes France did deport quite a number, mainly German and not German speaking French but you have to remember the Alsace Lorraine was always German speaking and had changed hands many time over the centuries.I can send you information about the deportation and treatment in Czechoslovakia.. It wasn't just active Nazis but mostly civilians.France did greedily grab the Saarland though but it returned to Germany in 1950's.

[ruzzaruzza]

I know that most of the expelled ethnic germans were just civilians. And I know that when we were deporing them we made quite a few mistakes. People were angry at Germans after the war and they sometimes behaved like idiots. There were even a few murders. However I still belive that something like 80% of the "civilians" were in accord with the Nazi party, the war, the separation of Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia and the subjugation of our territory and the enslavement of its people.

[godstargodstar]

No I believe although not entirely dismissive you are somewhat underplaying the horror that was unleashed upon the Sudeten Germans.

[ruzzaruzza]

maybe I am not right. I wasnt there back then to see it. That is what I think.

[godstargodstar]

Let it be noted that France,Poland,Russia,Uk, and the League of nations (as an organisation) were all in favour of the Munich agreement. The annexation or better still the inclusion of the Sudeten lands although hard for Czechoslavkia was legal at the time and most people thought fair. I think there could have been a federal solution to the problem but the Nazis won't have been happy with that as well we now know.

[historatia]

@godstargodstar Actually that's about right. If you actually READ the aggreement rather than the BS PROPAGANDA, you will see that it included the rest being made a Protectorate of Germany -- like Hawaii was of the US, Hitler only took the Sudetenland into the Reich. Then Slovakia was made a separate republic. HE WAS RIGHT. In 1993 the same "Slovakia" became independent again. Hitler did not 'break" the agreement, and all --including the Poles and Hungarians -- were happy.

[historatia]

@godstargodstar It was the first serious 'fix-up' of the mess that Versailles made of eastern and central Europe, BECAUSE Versailles didn't even have the foresight that the Soviet Communists would actually manage to remain in power in Russia. Because of the horrible Polish treatment of minorities (5, 3, 1.5 million Ukrainians, Hungarians and Germans inside a Poland of 19 .4 million) Hitler needed at least to regain Danzig, 97.5% German. Doing so was NOT irrational. (more)

[historatia]

@godstargodstar Wit danzig as a Free Ciity, 97.5% German why did they not have a right to the same "self-determination"??? Versailles was grossly unfair there (as elsewhere). Why did Poland have a veto, and why would the Poles not discuss it with the Germans as their "friendship" treaty required? Beck actually BELIEVED the Brits and French WORDS of support and encouragement NOT to negotiate. Those British/French/Polish joint actions made it a powderkeg given the polish strangling of Danzig. 

[hilletehnoob]

shut up, if sudets were hardly colonized by germans and they were majority, why should they not be separed from czechoslovakia?????? you honestly have to tell me, besides, germans(austrians) rules that country for hundreds and hundreds of years, they had the right of doing soo.And of course czesk were not to be eslavemented, that is post ww2 propagandas.

[ruzzaruzza]

what.. calm down "hilletehnoob"... ethnic germans probably had the right for self-determination, even though the land wasn´t historically their.... but anyway who cares after half a century, we live in peace now.. and there are many cases of people living on the wrong side of border in europe even nowadays... like Basques and Irish... and former jugoslavia and probably many others..

[ruzzaruzza]

and now about the enslavement... how come you think it is an propaganda... i am not an historian but from what I know the nazis objectives were these:

1. kill all czech jews, gypsies and homosexuals - you cannot deny this man

2. germanize the right looking czechs with blond hair, blue eyes and shit..

3. and the rest of us would become the second class citizens - how great... would you want to be a second class citizen yourself?? haaa?

[Quentinsama]

Germany/Austria ist still ruling Czech republic and poland today economically.

[historatia]

@Quentinsama Thats actually NOT true. Economic circumstances are not MADE by the States, they are inherent in the physical geography first, and then determined culture of the people with the sovereignty. Poland and the Czechs don't like that their economic circumstances are limited and their cultures do a bad job even of the opportunities they have (unlike, Slovenia and Slovakia for example). What investments happen there is decided by EU and WTO rules, and local policies, NOT German policy.

[hilletehnoob]

what is wrong with u??Just because u are czesk u have to agree with the deportation? don't you see that even if 80% of sudet germans agreeded with nazism as you say, do you really think they should be deported?? Ideology can appear from (brainwash) untill very young, etc....

It's wrong what you did(czesks), you should pay for what you did and you should think by yourself... Can't you see that the deportations was only to make Germany weaker? there is no racional justification for it.

[VVojtekSoldierBear]

@hilletehnoob

Enough rational to prevent excuses for expansion. As for now these are our countryies which pay for the wicked German or Russian ideologyies... literally.

Why Germany can`t compensate these expellers if Poland could pay to the expelled from the present Ukraine, Belarus or Lithuania? Why we resigned from the reparations? ... lets watch again how Brandt is kneeling before the JEWISH monument built on the place of KL "Warschau" and amuse ourselves how fair and good Germans are.

[historatia]

@VVojtekSoldierBear For us expellees (I am one from Eastern Pomerania) NO amount of 'compensation' can pay for watching the Poles deface the cultural heritage, plow under the cemeteries, deface everything and try to destroy the traces of 1,000 years of our civilization there. Then to watch the Poles try to profit from German Heritage sites -- such as Marienburg -- without even giving the 2,000 bodies of old people, women and children found in the mass grave a decent burial is DISGUSTING.

[NSALP121]

@historatia I agree completely! My great grandfather was born in Breslau, but then moved to Munich before joining the Wehrmacht before the war.

[historatia]

@VVojtekSoldierBear They were killed by Polish militia AFTER the Russians left, but Poles try to blame others for this crime, EVEN NOW. It make Poland a very POOR partner for moving forward with European integration when the names of relatives are known and the names of the murders are also known. The Polish IPN onlhy concerns itself with the crimes against Poles, NOT the crimes against humanity if Poles committed them.

[ruzzaruzza]

The problem is that geographically or economically small nations are just puppets in the game of the world superpowers or their bigger nationes. We don´t even have one common approach to our history here in Europe. In the eyes of one nation certain king or general is a hero, in the eyes of their neighbour he is a mass-murder. Who´s right then?

[KAMERBURO]

how do u come to say this about germany and poland?

[ruzzaruzza]

I mean Germany and Poland are quite big countries. After the WWII part of Poland was taken by Soviets and as a "gift" they gave a part of Germany (inhabited by 12 mil. people) to Poles. I don´t think that anybody asked either Germany or Poland if they agree with it. Almost all countries "freed" by Soviets became communist and all countires freed by the U.S. became democratic.

Now, do you see my point?

[KAMERBURO]

i see the point of your reply. however, what i was more interest in was what you meant with 'We don´t even have one common approach to our history'. Just because the countries went different paths doesn't mean that we necessarily have two contradicting views on our histroy.

[KAMERBURO]

cont'd:

Although I think that there were huge differences in the war and cold-war generations I hope today's 20-40 year old europeans (east and west) have a converging rather than diverging views on our common history and decide to put past differences behind (i am just revering to current EU members, i suppose your comment alluding to generals was more aiming towards the Balkan).

[ruzzaruzza]

Not really. I think that now there is some EU program to actually unify history textbooks in schools in the EU countries, because there are still differences in how certain people and events are percieved.

For example Slovakia and Hungary use still different textbooks. So now what they are trying to do is to put those two points of wiev into one textbook. But it wasnt´t like that even 5 years ago.

[ruzzaruzza]

I don´t expect you to know the Czech history because I don´t know the Dutch one. To give you another example, there are still disputes between Czech and German historians over the Holy Roman Emperor Charles IV and the Hussies. Whereas Germans perceive them slightly negatively we perceive them positively. And I think that you can find tens or maybe hundreds of examples like that across Europe - not taking into an account the Balkans, that is a different story.

[NaiIfaks]

For  Polish ,a man who raped 15 year girl, mourdered his mother, father and burned his house is mass-murder.

In Germany he is a hero.

No more coments.

[historatia]

@NaiIfaks Inflamatory fiction

[charlessmyth]

In the traditional scheme of things, a sovereign state comes into being through conquest and having the means to hold the territory. Poland has frequently varied in its territorial range, since the time of Prussia, and after WW2 with Belarus, etc. This why the EU is an important development as a way to encourage concord, without having to rake over the coals of territorial claims. Janusz Reiter, et al, are referring to not long ago history.

[Alsterwasser]

Only a sovereign state can legally give up territory. Therefore, if the Allied-occupied BRD "recognized" the "Oder-Neiße-Linie" is completely irrelevant for the borders of Germany.

And what an arrogant and condescending remark by Herrn Reiter talking about if "Germany can be trusted"! How repulsive! Remember that it is Poland still occupying a big part of Germany, not vice versa!

It's Germany that has good reason not to trust Poland, Herr Reiter!

[RobertBF2]

@Alsterwasser "Poland still occupying a big part of Germany" how long this land was german?Silesian and Kasubian people are german teribles?To ~1700 german border was near Oder river.All lands reurn to Poland n 1945 look map Poland in X century.We created citys at this land Wrocław(Breslau) and Szczecin(Stettin)

[Alsterwasser]

@RobertBF2 Those regions were POLISH? Nope. They did NOT "return" to Poland.

They did not belong to Poland in the past, and they do not belong to Poland in the present. Even accordig to the Potsdam Agreement they are only under Polish "administration", but they still belong to Germany.

Moreover, cities like Stetting and Breslau were NOT created by Poland, but by Germans.

[RobertBF2]

@Alsterwasser Learn history Breslau and Stettin was destroyed by soviets and germans and was rebulit by Poles after 1945.Wrocław was in Polish country X-1348.TO XVII century people lived in Wrocław speak in POLISH!LEARN GERAMAN!Breslau was 1741-1945!!

[Alsterwasser]

@RobertBF2 "RE-build" = copycat.

Both Stettin and Breslau were and ARE German cities. Even the Allies gave them only under Polish ADMINISTRATION, they are still German territory.

[POLAK1Nysa]

@Alsterwasser territory has been exchanged many times, among different states. They are 100% Polish now. True many germans lived there, but lose a war and do not complain! I have nothing against Germans at all. I have been there, people are very nice. Poland borders not only moved west but east too, so we lost cities too. It was not a decision made by Poles or Poland at all. What you talk about is the past, better to leave it just like Poles who talk lviv/lwow, vilnius/wilno.

[lipaization]

@Alsterwasser Yea you are stupid or ...

[Alsterwasser]

@lipaization No, I'm not stupid at all.