Interesting video. Free-will is ofcourse philosophically the almighty God, and a paradox, The eternal cause of the universe, that knows all about itself in eternity. Completely transcendent and absolute. From a philosophical standpoint, one needs to deal with dualism, 1.phenomena God, and 2. creation, anyway. And esoteric religion states that he created consciousness with himself, being lifeforce. And some QP mimicks that in the way they state mind (absolute) defines universe (variables) Peace.
@gml142 Let's say the cat collapses the wave function. It dies at time t1. The researcher observes this result at a later time, t2. If the researcher waits long enough, the box will smell of death. Lack of researcher observation does not mean lack of collapse. So, the factual uncertainty in the researcher's mind between t1 and t2 does not mean the result of the experiment is in superposition prior to t2. The researcher does not causally determine whether the cat is dead at t2. That seems right.
I see a potential flaw in your reasoning here, in that the theory rests on assumptions about what happens during wave function collapse, a feature of the Copenhagen interpretation. However, the Copenhagen interpretation need not be true. If another interpretation, like many worlds theory, is true, there is no collapse at all. Also, a link you gave in a previous video to a talk entitled "The Quantum Conspiracy: What Popularizers of QM Don't Want You to Know," seemed to state that the CI is false.
@gml142 Well collapse is a real phenomenon outside of CI also. I mean we have the Zeno effect, which demonstrates as much. With MWI collapse would be when the universes split such that they are no longer affecting each others outcomes in superposition.
@JohananRaatz I am not an expert these in matters, so please forgive any ignorance on my behalf. As I understand it, MWI does away with both collapse and the role of the observer by positing that the wave function is real, and hence evolves with or without observers. It replaces collapse with decoherence, which occurs when measurements occur (measurements being irreverseable thermodynamic interactions with the system). MWI resolves the paradoxes in CI, hence, the theory here depends upon CI.
@gml142 Well I actually have a video I would like to do in the future where I want to suggest that Orch-OR should be modified due to entropic gravity. What I'd like to show here is that the gravity that collapses the wave-function in Orch-OR is actually equal to an increase in entropy -thereby arguing the modified OR and decoherence are actually equivalent.
As for measurement if you boil it down it's identical to physical interaction. Even an electron can measure another electron.
@AFrightfulDream Actually yes. Last week I mentioned that I was considering banning him for trolling, and he begged me to do it. However he then added that he wanted me to do it first so that he could pretend not to have "conceded defeat." I then said I wouldn't ban him for that reason, so agreed on the next best thing -not to comment on each others videos or pages or directly contact one another. That's why he's not here.
However you are certainly welcome to press him with this on his page.
@JohananRaatz Lol, what a bad come-back from Dhorpatan for a defeat, "It was just trolling" therefore he admits he was doing nothing but waste his own time :)
@FatGnomeTribute Is this in response to this video? Did he say this video was a troll video or that he was never going to believe it and so therefore he was just wasting his time trolling.
Either way I think that is a clear sign of defeat. Whenever he loses an argument, and he knows it, he never admits it, but just starts calling names, and ridiculing. In any case he seems to be admitting he has no arguments left.
Orch OR's equation e = h/t suggests that Schrodinger's cat has conscious moments every, say, 600 milliseconds. If the cat is conscious and observing, then the cat is either dead, or alive, without any need to reference a scientist or scientist's assistant. The cat is not in a superposition prior to observation by scientists. It dies, or stays alive, at the very moment the vile either breaks or doesn't. Belief that the cat is in a superposition, both dead and alive, is myth. Cat's cause collapse.
@cameronmichaelkeys I believe what you've done here is just describe the paradox. The cat knows if it's dead or alive. The problem still arrises in CI because despite whether or not the cat knows what happened, Wigner doesn't. Until he looks in the box, he cannot say anything meaningful about what the state is inside the box: it remains in superposition. Then we can extend the problem to Wigner's friend and so on. The paradoxes in CI are good reasons to reject it in favor of say MWI. :)
MWI is not the only alternative to CI. Also paradoxes in CI are broken or solved quite frankly, when *non-local consciousness* is posited as the ground of existence.
Having said that there are other interpretations which arrive at the same ultimate conclusion as CI but don't require collapse.
Then again cameronmichaelkeys gave a good analysis in the posts before mine.
I'm not sure if MWi counts as an "interpretation" anyway, more a separate theory.
Thanks for posting that in response to my questions! I'll have to watch it at another time when I am much more awake, and take more time to understand it.
But this was something I was wondering earlier today...
Doesn't Penrose have an interpretation (or rather a theory) of wave function collapse called Objective collapse?
I define it as the ability for us to cause something that could not in principle be causally determined by outside forces. (though our minds can still be influenced)
@OpenAirAtheist Free-will is evidence because our knowledge of it is innate.
If it wasn't, we couldn't know that we could trust our logical deductions (our idea of logic would just the result of an unconscious clockwork mechanism, which we could not trust for certain to give us the correct concept of logic).However since we know that we can trust logic, (denying this would be self-contradicting) we can also deduce that denying free-will is self-contradictory.
In which, and I have little understanding on what it states and the physics behind it) some sort of energy threshold is reached which localizes the wave-function and results in collapse and a single location of a particle? Is this related to [Orchestrated] Objective reduction (Penrose uses it as another word for collapse)? It doesn't seem to apparently be so, but I am most likely just ignorant on the subject.
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Interesting video. Free-will is ofcourse philosophically the almighty God, and a paradox, The eternal cause of the universe, that knows all about itself in eternity. Completely transcendent and absolute. From a philosophical standpoint, one needs to deal with dualism, 1.phenomena God, and 2. creation, anyway. And esoteric religion states that he created consciousness with himself, being lifeforce. And some QP mimicks that in the way they state mind (absolute) defines universe (variables) Peace.
ParadoxEternal 2 weeks ago
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ParadoxEternal 2 weeks ago
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ParadoxEternal 2 weeks ago
Great stuff *subbed*
fishybishbash 1 month ago
@fishybishbash Thanks!
JohananRaatz 1 month ago
@gml142 Let's say the cat collapses the wave function. It dies at time t1. The researcher observes this result at a later time, t2. If the researcher waits long enough, the box will smell of death. Lack of researcher observation does not mean lack of collapse. So, the factual uncertainty in the researcher's mind between t1 and t2 does not mean the result of the experiment is in superposition prior to t2. The researcher does not causally determine whether the cat is dead at t2. That seems right.
cameronmichaelkeys 3 months ago
I see a potential flaw in your reasoning here, in that the theory rests on assumptions about what happens during wave function collapse, a feature of the Copenhagen interpretation. However, the Copenhagen interpretation need not be true. If another interpretation, like many worlds theory, is true, there is no collapse at all. Also, a link you gave in a previous video to a talk entitled "The Quantum Conspiracy: What Popularizers of QM Don't Want You to Know," seemed to state that the CI is false.
gml142 3 months ago
@gml142 Well collapse is a real phenomenon outside of CI also. I mean we have the Zeno effect, which demonstrates as much. With MWI collapse would be when the universes split such that they are no longer affecting each others outcomes in superposition.
JohananRaatz 3 months ago
@JohananRaatz I am not an expert these in matters, so please forgive any ignorance on my behalf. As I understand it, MWI does away with both collapse and the role of the observer by positing that the wave function is real, and hence evolves with or without observers. It replaces collapse with decoherence, which occurs when measurements occur (measurements being irreverseable thermodynamic interactions with the system). MWI resolves the paradoxes in CI, hence, the theory here depends upon CI.
gml142 3 months ago
@gml142 Well I actually have a video I would like to do in the future where I want to suggest that Orch-OR should be modified due to entropic gravity. What I'd like to show here is that the gravity that collapses the wave-function in Orch-OR is actually equal to an increase in entropy -thereby arguing the modified OR and decoherence are actually equivalent.
As for measurement if you boil it down it's identical to physical interaction. Even an electron can measure another electron.
JohananRaatz 3 months ago
@AFrightfulDream Actually yes. Last week I mentioned that I was considering banning him for trolling, and he begged me to do it. However he then added that he wanted me to do it first so that he could pretend not to have "conceded defeat." I then said I wouldn't ban him for that reason, so agreed on the next best thing -not to comment on each others videos or pages or directly contact one another. That's why he's not here.
However you are certainly welcome to press him with this on his page.
JohananRaatz 3 months ago
@JohananRaatz Lol, what a bad come-back from Dhorpatan for a defeat, "It was just trolling" therefore he admits he was doing nothing but waste his own time :)
FatGnomeTribute 3 months ago
@FatGnomeTribute Is this in response to this video? Did he say this video was a troll video or that he was never going to believe it and so therefore he was just wasting his time trolling.
Either way I think that is a clear sign of defeat. Whenever he loses an argument, and he knows it, he never admits it, but just starts calling names, and ridiculing. In any case he seems to be admitting he has no arguments left.
JohananRaatz 3 months ago
BRILLIANT VIDEO!
KTK401 3 months ago
Orch OR's equation e = h/t suggests that Schrodinger's cat has conscious moments every, say, 600 milliseconds. If the cat is conscious and observing, then the cat is either dead, or alive, without any need to reference a scientist or scientist's assistant. The cat is not in a superposition prior to observation by scientists. It dies, or stays alive, at the very moment the vile either breaks or doesn't. Belief that the cat is in a superposition, both dead and alive, is myth. Cat's cause collapse.
cameronmichaelkeys 3 months ago
@cameronmichaelkeys Well I was just trying to show there that the "collapse = observation" idea holds more generally, even if Penrose were wrong.
JohananRaatz 3 months ago
@cameronmichaelkeys I believe what you've done here is just describe the paradox. The cat knows if it's dead or alive. The problem still arrises in CI because despite whether or not the cat knows what happened, Wigner doesn't. Until he looks in the box, he cannot say anything meaningful about what the state is inside the box: it remains in superposition. Then we can extend the problem to Wigner's friend and so on. The paradoxes in CI are good reasons to reject it in favor of say MWI. :)
gml142 3 months ago
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@gml142 Hi there,
MWI is not the only alternative to CI. Also paradoxes in CI are broken or solved quite frankly, when *non-local consciousness* is posited as the ground of existence.
Having said that there are other interpretations which arrive at the same ultimate conclusion as CI but don't require collapse.
Then again cameronmichaelkeys gave a good analysis in the posts before mine.
I'm not sure if MWi counts as an "interpretation" anyway, more a separate theory.
Best wishes
KTK401 2 months ago
@JohananRaatz
Thanks for posting that in response to my questions! I'll have to watch it at another time when I am much more awake, and take more time to understand it.
But this was something I was wondering earlier today...
Doesn't Penrose have an interpretation (or rather a theory) of wave function collapse called Objective collapse?
ErebusGodOvDarkness 3 months ago in playlist More videos from JohananRaatz
what about a mind that existed before a quantum reality?
kvash3154 3 months ago
You list free will as evidence? The illusion of free will exist nothing more depending on what you mean by free will.
OpenAirAtheist 3 months ago
@OpenAirAtheist "what you mean by free will."
I define it as the ability for us to cause something that could not in principle be causally determined by outside forces. (though our minds can still be influenced)
JohananRaatz 3 months ago 2
@JohananRaatz from it's the other way around if something were undermined it would be random which means reliability get thrown out the window.
OpenAirAtheist 3 months ago
@JohananRaatz if you want to discus this further you will need to reach me on skype later homey. I have a biblical Gk class to teach.
OpenAirAtheist 3 months ago
@OpenAirAtheist Free-will is evidence because our knowledge of it is innate.
If it wasn't, we couldn't know that we could trust our logical deductions (our idea of logic would just the result of an unconscious clockwork mechanism, which we could not trust for certain to give us the correct concept of logic).However since we know that we can trust logic, (denying this would be self-contradicting) we can also deduce that denying free-will is self-contradictory.
Thus we know we have it a priori.
JohananRaatz 3 months ago 10
@JohananRaatz
...cont.
In which, and I have little understanding on what it states and the physics behind it) some sort of energy threshold is reached which localizes the wave-function and results in collapse and a single location of a particle? Is this related to [Orchestrated] Objective reduction (Penrose uses it as another word for collapse)? It doesn't seem to apparently be so, but I am most likely just ignorant on the subject.
ErebusGodOvDarkness 3 months ago in playlist More videos from JohananRaatz