The Excommunication of Lyndon Lamborn - Part 2 of 3

[ImLDSRU2]

I like it that people who are faithless, rebellious and deniers of the Holy Ghost are excommunicated from the Church.

[sergeantrex]

I remember leaving the church in 2002. The Bishop told me that I had to have a church court like this one. I told em "I don't have to explain anything to anyone or be judged by anyone in a church court type setting." I insisted that they take my name off church records without a church court. They granted my wish in 2006. The arrogance of the church is amazing.

[southerngent253]

Amen Lyndon.....Great job.

[LDStothecore]

This guy loses his testimony, is an apostate and he puts a video about it on here. Very sad.

[ZelphKinderhook]

@LDStothecore

Yes, it's very sad that the Mormon church is so corrupt and absolutely false. It's such a good thing that he got out!

[casualsbucket]

There is a lot of creepy things about the Mormon belief system

[dorisfenella]

Es una pena pero todo ha sido muy alturado y respetuoso, pero solo se escucha claro a el. yo me pregunto cual fue la intención de llevar una grabadora alli, habria sido lo mismo si el no supiera que se esta grabando?

It would be the same if he hadn´t know that he were going to be recorded by himself?

That is not very honest. I think there´s something more that motivates him to do this.

[lclamborn58]

@dorisfenella As I was describing the interviews and conversations with church leadership leading up to this event, many of my friends could not believe the things that were said. They said "Too bad you did not record that conversation, it would be priceless." Thus the idea was planted. As long as I am going to give the high council an "exit interview", I decided, at the last minute, to go ahead and record it. It would have been different w/o recording: fewer grammar errors!

[dorisfenella]

@lclamborn58 Wait are you the excomunicated? Oh my god sorry it must be painful for you.

But they don´t talk almost nothing. It´s more like a monologue.

All is respectful, don´t be like William Law please.

Love Christ wherever.

[CounterCultureLives]

@lclamborn58 Gotta' question for you Lyndon; Listening to your meeting with the LDS disciplinary council, I'm left to wonder why you spoke of "respecting" these jackals. Why?? These are the same people who sought to manipulate you, then condemn you for exposing the truth. These are the same people who lied to you. What respect did they deserve?? Why should you worry about taking too much time addressing them?? Truth is more important than time. Just asking..

[lclamborn58]

@CounterCultureLives My motivation in addressing the dry council was to help them understand the shaky foundation of their core beliefs in the hope that they would have more tolerance for others like me, perhaps in their own families. So my remarks were reinforced with esteem for them, so they would know I cared. Some of these guys I had shared a campfire with, been on double dates, etc. They are all good men, doing what they thought was right and correct.  Just misguided. Hope this helps.

[drinkswithnedkelly]

Thank you for this video Lyndon. But I must say, I am very concerned that you get the warm fuzzies from listening to Nickleback!

[hombregato2]

non sense, they claim is not information and in the other hand they say is lots of information ..make up your mind, any how if you dislike it so be it and quit, nobody is force to stay. no one gets pay in the church, what the finances have to do with it?

[lclamborn58]

@hombregato2 My mission president got a paycheck. Lots of people are on the LDS church payroll. I have no issue with religions collecting money to run their business, it is the need for SECRECY that struck me with the LDS church. Why would the true church of god need to hide their investment strategies? No other churches hide their financials - only the LDS church. Can you explain why? Do you know where your tithing dollars really go? Have you read "Mormon Corporate Empire"? You should.

[LDSapologist71]

I believe Margeret Barker has better credentials than this guy ever had and her books have more weight as well.

I know my opinion is only as good as yours and just as biased. May the reader understand.

The name of Joseph Smith would be for good and ill among All nations. Only prescription of it being fulfilled.

[LDSapologist71]

Margaret Barker (born 1944), a Methodist preacher, studied theology at the University of Cambridge, after which she has devoted her life to research in ancient Christianity. She has developed an approach to Biblical studies known as Temple Theology. She was president of the Society for Old Testament Study in 1998, and in July 2008 she was awarded a DD by the Archbishop of Canterbury.

She has written several excellent books concerning the Prophet Joseph Smith.

[MrsWiljc311]

@LDSapologist71 He isn't a prophet, your church is a lie.

[LDSapologist71]

The biggest issue is that the man Lyndon decided to read The Banner Under Heaven. That book is not based on History, nor is the author a credible historian. The entire message of it is to slam the church, but it's not based on Fact, but a complete strawman.

[lclamborn]

Suppression of information, ie, recommending that church members do not read the Banner of Heaven, is a peculiar kind of evil. If the book has interesting true facts, the person is denied the opportunity to replace misconceptions with reality. If the facts in the book are bogus, the reader is denied the opportunity to gain a better appreciation of the truth he already had as it collides with errror. Either way, suppression of information is bad. Reading the book helped me!

[carkunkula]

@LDSapologist71 yah, you sound just like the MORmON who told me that Ken Verdoia of KUED was not a credible historical source either when it was pointed out that phony POS Brig Young had suspended LDS tithing. but MORmONS considered LDS prophets to be credible ...when EVERYONE of them has LIED!

MORmONS!

[Jesus5mith]

@LDSapologist71

Speaking of a strawman, The stake president (SP) says that Deseret Book publishes books that are not pro-mormon. Yet, they were excommunicating LL because he was sharing "anti" information with other members.

But if DBook publishes so called negative information, and it is owned by LDSinc, then shouldn't DBook, it's executives and board members also be excommunicated?

Why is LL singled out for doing what allegedly DB is doing, according to the SP?

[MrsWiljc311]

@LDSapologist71 The idea that Joseph Smith had more than one wife isn't a falsehood. Sure, it's easily available information NOW, but when I was a member many years ago we constantly had it drilled into our heads that Emma was Joseph's only wife. It wasn't until this information became popular on the internet that the church stopped hiding this fact. They could no longer deny what they had taught us for years and years.

The so-called "one true church" has a really bad habit of lying.

[starveartist]

@LDSapologist71 "Facts" such as whatever comes from the mouths of church leaders..."Facts" like the historical impossibilities contained within the Book of Mormon?

[CounterCultureLives]

@LDSapologist71 So, if The Banner Under Heaven" is "a complete strawman" (sic), then WHY was it distributed by Deseret Books, which is a propaganda factory for LDS Shillsters, Inc.??

[artbulla]

Said Joseph, "Our lives have already become jeopardized by revealing... All we have said about them is truth, but it is not always wise to relate all the truth. Jesus, the Son of God had to refrain from doing so, and had to restrain his feelings many times for the safety of himself and his followers. (HC 6:608-9.)

[lclamborn]

The truth will cut its own way. (Joseph Smith Jr.)

To Latter-day Saints there can be no objection to the careful and critical study of the scriptures, ancient or modern.. (John A. Widtsoe)

This book [The Book of Mormon] is entitled to the most thorough and impartial examination. Not only does it merit such consideration, it claims, even demands the same. The man who cannot listen to an argument which opposes his views either has a weak position..." (Talmage)

[artbulla]

The character of the "modern" church is quite different from that of Joseph and Brigham. I received the following revelation (posted in three or four parts) on the necessity of secrecy concerning Adam God doctrine, part 1:

The Revelations of Jesus Christ

SECTION 33.

Revelation received April 5, 1983, on Adam, God doctrine, whether from the Lord or taught by Brigham Young "arbitrarily" by fiat as some who speak evil of dignities spuriously claim. Doctrine taught in the secret councils (->pt2)

[lclamborn]

Yet another proof that religion is man-made, it adapts and evolves.

[artbulla]

Please hear latest broadcast concerning necessity of secrecy concerning Adam God and the law of Abraham: blogtalkradiodotcom/artbulla

[lclamborn]

Secrecy and information control is a hallmark tactic of all mind control organizations. Secret meetings, which the LDS are famous for, and shrines for the elite (temples) are also part of destructive mind control. You might want to check out Steven Hassans book on mind control, or my book, "Standing for Something More". To believe in a God who would test his child by commanding him to murder his son is a little on the kooky side, even by your standards, isn't it? Do you believe in such?

[SuperDuck25]

He said that everyone was speaking the same language in the Book of Mormon... but the Book of Mormon talks in several places about over coming language barriers and the differant languages in the Book of Mormon.

[lclamborn]

You might want to read BH Roberts "Studies of the Book of Mormon" to get a feel for the linguistic problems associated with the BoM.  It is virtually insurmountable all by itself. The apologist will always be able to invent a low probability explanation, but how many low probability explanations are you willing to entertain before the house of cards tumbles down? You also might want to google Craig Criddle's (Stanford) research on actual authorship of the BoM. interesting stuff.

[SuperDuck25]

I have seen a presentation by Craig Criddle on the "actual" authorship of the BoM.... I found it to be a "low probability explanation"

-

The historical aspects questioned by atagonists of the church always seem to fall flat after time. For example "There were no horses in America before the arival of the Spanish"

[lclamborn]

Wow, and I find the historicity problems absolutely overwhelming. I cannot be honest with myself and somehow force myself to swallow all the kooky explanations. Have you read "The Keystone of Mormonism"?

The Rigdon/Spaulding theory and analysis is peer-reviewed science. Seems much higher probability than the angel and the golden plates fairy tale, IMO.

Interesting that you are able to make it work and be honest with yourself. Not something I could do. Life is too short to live a lie.

[SuperDuck25]

I don't find it so hard to believe that God could send an Angel to a man to direct him to an ancient record, nor that He could give that man power to translate the record. But then again I also believe the same God taught a man how to build a giant boat large enough to save all of the land animals from a global flood, and later saved three men from recieving a single harm who were tossed into a furnace so hot it killed the men who tossed them in.

[JimLongo]

BlandInTheBasement - reading your replies to reasonable argument leaves me with one conclusion; your alias is a metephor for the content and location of your brain.

And you implored another to remove their head from their 'arse'. You make me laugh.

I suppose the Pepsi is an attempt to dislodge the kool-aid taste from your palate.

The location of purchase of a particular book is no defense of the inconsistancies in the historical teachings of the LDS church.

[smb12321]

Bland - I am through since your entire argument is "the guy bought a book in an LDS bookstore (which soon discontinued it - lol)

You ignore what I wrote - the secrecy of the LDS, punishing Saints for conducting independent research, omitting wives, arrests, failed prophecies of their "prophet", preaching the BOM is true despite its utter rejection by every non-LDS scientist and historian.

Your leader believed JS was a fraud & sought to buy & hide the evidence. Is that Inspiring?

[risperidoster]

I think you are awesome for what you did! Hope more people like you will do the same.

[smb12321]

Why in the world would a religion need to lie and hide facts & revise history if it was certain of its own truthfulness? the sad truth is (I think) that LDS leaders know that Smith is a phony, that the BOM is also fiction along with the Book of Abraham?

Bravo to Lyndon Lamborn, a true modern hero.

[blandinthebasement]

the church suppresses information???

Are they to teach doctrines that go against their beliefs? That doesn't make any sense...no one kept him from learning anything he wanted to learn....didn't he find that book in the deseret bookstore? Give me a break!

why wouldn't he want to be excommunicated? Seems like a mutual feeling..why all the drama?

[smb12321]

Bland - Typical LDS BS. The man in the video did what you said and the LDS kicked him out. Mind you, they did not refute his data. It's not doctrine but the silence on JS & LDS history that's scary. From JS's arrests for fraud to polygamy to his "prophecies", blood atonement, Book of Abraham hoax, etc - silence.

I've met LDS who swore the BOM was not racist or JS wasn't a polygamist or who knew of evidence supporting the BOM.

Take a walk on the wild sice and drink a Coke - lol

[blandinthebasement]

You must not have listened to the same recording...

HE SAID HIMSELF that the Book of Mormon is a 'good' book. Yet because he read some historical speculation on a few matters---he was ready to toss that 'goodness' aside for doubt---and now he says that 'goodness' must not be good because of his doubts.  That sounds like good old-fashioned deception! Doesn't get more confusing than that.

I'm drinking a diet pepsi right now---You are incredibly ignorant about 'mormons'.

[smb12321]

Please don't mix the ridiculous BOM with the LDS organization. One is fiction, the other (unfortunately) real. Most Mormons (like most Christians) know little of their scriptures.When shown racist, absurd, scientifically illiterate or plagarized verses it's always, "I never knew/saw that."

I'm aware the caffeine ban came from JS's nutty idea that "hot" drinks were bad for the body. It's why I made it a joke. The diet soda thing is a way to be bad without being bad. Ridiculous and hilarious

[blandinthebasement]

And he doesn't believe in Mormonism....so he really kicked HIMSELF out...get a clue.

Why is it a bad decision on either of their parts if they are both comfortable with the decision? The only people still making a stink about this whole thing is him, and 'mormon-haters'. The proof is in the pudding.

[smb12321]

First, what kind of organization kicks out people for discovering the truth about their founder? Second, you are right. When he discovered that the LDS not only hid the true events (called "historical") but also purposely lied to the SAints, he lost faith.

People will believe in any rabid system if it's all they know - Marxism, Mormonism, Wicca, etc. The difference is that only Mormons maintain a secret police type operation on their members.

[blandinthebasement]

The only one speculating and revising history is you!

This guy even said himself he bought those books about Joseph Smith from an LDS publisher.

Get your head our of your proverbial arse.

[smb12321]

Obviously, you're unable to respond to the obvious: The LDS goes to any lengths to keep control of its robots including buying incriminating evidence, hiding JS deeds & saying "Lying for the Lord".

Every ex-Mormon I've met left after doing outside reading on JS & his life. When Hinkley bought documents he thought proved JS a fraud, what does that mean? Get this - he believed the documents were authentic (JS was a fraud) yet he carried on like normal. How crazy is that?

[blandinthebasement]

Where did he buy the book that led him to believe the church was 'covering things up'???

AT A CHURCH BOOKSTORE!!!

A little disingenuous, don't you think?

No one keeps me from reading ANYTHING---I'm on YouTube reading all kinds of dumb accusations about the church, aren't I? The accusers indignantly claim to be more enlightened because they 'google' stuff.

[blandinthebasement]

Ok, did you just miss the part about Lamborn buying that book at a church bookstore?

You're intellectual laziness is giving me a migraine.

[teresatoneytm]

I'm sorry but steel was invented in13th century BC

[lclamborn]

Rudimentary iron implements were certainly around in the 13th century in the old world. The Book of Mormon claims that the Jaredites had steel swords in about 2000 BC (see Ether 7:9). The Wikipedia indicates that smelting and working with iron alloys was not part of mesoamerican culture. Sorry, the Book of Mormon is a complete fabrication. Steel is only one of hundreds of historicity problems with the BoM.

[ryanmoe2008]

thank you! I am sending my letter of resignation to salt lake city today. God will bless you Lyndon!

[GrubbyGert]

Molina: "What do you read in the Book of Mormon that would lead you to believe it is evil and not worthwhile?"

well, there's that whole part about the book's hero (Nephi) hearing voices telling him to behead a drunk man and steal his effects. yeah, for me, personally, that pretty much fits the description of "evil and not worthwhile" - but hey, that's just me ;)

good overview, btw, of the historicity issues

[lclamborn]

I take your dancing as a indication that you really don't understand the problems with the doctrines of St. Augustine. All accredited universities teach that religious and artistic humans existed thousands of years before the time assigned to Adam and Eve. If there was no fall of Adam, there was no need for a rescuer, and Jesus has been carrying a burden he never asked for or deserved. Maybe it is time for us to rescue Jesus from this injustice, and take some ownership for a change.

[amaxamon]

I was raised a JW & went through a similar process, ending a rationalist & atheist (unless you're agnostic or something). I totally respect you, man. Keep fighting religious superstition.

[lclamborn]

First answer this simple question. What does humankind need to be saved FROM?

[lclamborn]

It is so heartwarming to hear that unconditional Christian love showing through. You are a credit to your creed.

"What has been Christianity s fruits? Superstition, Bigotry and Persecution." - James Madison

[lclamborn]

I consider myself a deeply spiritual person, seeking harmony and finding ways to improve myself and enhancing life for others. I have found that organized religions, at least the ones I have examined, tend to squelch true spirituality. So I deny organized religion, and am filling my life with reality. It is a subject that cannot be dealt with properly in 500 characters. I align well with Bob McCue, check out the spirituality portion of his website.

[nirenthomas1979]

Bring on the champagne...Lyndon you are a free man now !!! Welcome to the ex - Mormon fold !

[Yeshuajesus]

These dork are ego tripping! I would have not given them the time and day. God never excommunicates his children, not at least until the end of their lives. Actually excommunication would make a person free from this bondage.

[chemistclyde]

Lyndon, you are a brave man.

Oh, and just to help you clarify, "Mormon Enigma" was published by Univ. of Illinois Press, not Deseret Book. (Molina had that wrong)

[JokingJoJo]

Some day the truth of the Mormon Cult will become evident to everyone. I feel badly for any Mormon who won't open their eyes to their own church history. It's easily accessible on the internet.

[Exodus314IAM]

Just hope it is not to late then! Prophecies are being fulfilled every day! who knows how much longer? plus no one lives forever, then what?

God Bless!

[sportsislife45]

So anything accessed on the Internet is true huh? WoW lol

[halaevalu7]

@JokingJoJo I agree with you. I'm not Mormon, I was raised in a Methodist family history. But my husband is Mormon, and he needs to see and hear this.

[rivenrock]

@JokingJoJo But they are told specifically NOT to read outside the accepted canon and to avoid anti-Mormon literature because it's of the devil. This means that even if they do somehow come across information that exposes the Church, they are already set up mentally to consider the source evil and unreliable and to reject the information our of hand.

[Orlovna]

I, for one, do see the circular reasoning--as you say--regarding the story of the brother of Jared and the barges. If there is a description of something that is "like glass" (and this is the language of the Book of Mormon, here), then this presupposes that 'glass' was something the ancients had a knowledge of: or, they would not have been able to compare it, with anything else.

In short, it seems that ANY reference to glass, during that supposed brother-of-Jared time frame, is an anachronism.

[lclamborn]

Don't get hung up on glass. In my disciplinary council, I plucked a couple of historicity issues from a pile of about 30. The only acceptable approach for evaluating the BOM is to examine ALL the historicity issues. The horses, cattle, sheep, silk, wheat, language evolution, population growth, steel, wheels, skeletal structure, DNA, and so forth. The evidence that the BOM is not historically accurate is overwhelming and conclusive to the serious and objective researcher.

[lclamborn]

Omilio,

Everything I have read indicates that clear plate glass that would be capable of letting light into submarines would not be invented until 100 AD. There are a horde of other difficulties with the wooden submarines that supposedly carried the Jaredites to the new world. The BOM presents a string of highly improbable phenomena and events and strings them together. Assign a probability to each and multiply them together and you get something that is essentially impossible. The end.

[omiolo]

Mr. Lamborn,

My knowledge is that QUARTZ is the most abundant mineral in the earth. It would be found exactly as dictated in ETHER. It would be a small stone that would be transparent to light. It could also be used as a window.

the problem I have is a lot of your logic seems shortsided.

[lclamborn]

Omilio,

Now you are getting closer to the real issue. What happens when you apply the pressures expected in a shallow diving submarine to a chunk of quartz. Nothing.  It would not be 'dashed to pieces'. How could the Brother of Jared know about the brittle characteristics of glass when he was only familiar with quartz. Why didn't God just let him mine some thin quartz plates and use them in the submarines? Smell a rat here? I sure do. With every engineering fiber in my being.

[omiolo]

actually, the Book of Ether calls it "as glass". Which would come closer to quartz. The most abundant mineral on earth.

I feel like you are grasping at straws here. The Old Testament uses "molten looking glass" too.

I don't smell a rat.

[lclamborn]

Of course I know the BOM calls it glass, and now you are using circular reasoning. I thought you said they were familiar with quartz and were using it, clear glass panes did not exist. I would recommend you read "The Keystone of Mormonism" by Arza Evans, "Studies of the BOM" by BH Robberts, and "A View of the Hebrews" bt Ethan Smith before you think about bearing testimony of the Book of Mormon. Perpetuating ignorance is a great disservice to you fellow human beings.

[omiolo]

Mr. Lamborn,

I feel you are dodging my question and point. The Book of Mormon doesn't say GLASS, it says as Glass. i.e. like glass but not glass. e.g. QUARTZ. That seems pretty straightforward to me.

[lclamborn]

Omilio,

And I feel you are doding my question. How did the Brother of Jared know about the brittle properties of a glass-like material 1000's of years before it was invented. Quartz is not brittle and subject to being 'dashed to pieces'. How do you reconcile that?

[omiolo]

Mr. Lamborn,

I would never intentionally dodge a question unless it was a pharasee type trick question. I don't believe this is.

First, Quartz has been known since the dawn of man.

Second,I don't doubt for a minute that glass was invented. Sand and heat. I do doubt there were windows even though Noah had one. Genesis 6:16

Third, the quartz I have worked with and seen in mines can easily be dashed to pieces. I can provide you a link of quartz being dashed to pieces if you would like.

[lclamborn]

OK - good answer. I guess we will have to agree to disagree that this is a problem. However, it is only one of 30 tough questions regarding the historicity of the book. The trap you are falling into is to examine only a few issues and jump to a conclusion. Juries are instructed to postpone any decision until all the data is studied. I would hope that you would be objective, study the books I mentioned, and weigh all the evidence. I can send you some info if you email me lclamborn58(yahoo).

[omiolo]

Mr. Lamborn,

I do grow weary of the air of superiority about you. I do not grow weary of the scientific challenges. Maybe you can get rid of one and accentuate the other one.

I wish you would follow your own advice too.

[lclamborn]

Omilio,

I grow weary of being called all sorts of things, too. I have only grown to know of one individual on earth that has intensely studied all the materials available on the Book of Mormon and still believes in its authenticity. I am just wondering if you are #2, to help my database. Have you read the books I mentioned (Keystone of Mormonism, Insiders View, Studies of the BOM, View of the Hebrews)? If you have read several or all, then I have found #2. That is all I want to know.

[omiolo]

jhustler,

obviously you will continue to defend your position because admitting you are wrong would be against he ANTImormon code of dishonor.

SAND + SILICA = GLASS...color can be added if you don't want it clear.

Since I have science on my side I am not backing down you and Lyndon are WRONG!!

[jhuston7]

It would be nice if you knew half of what you think you know. From Glass online dot com - the History of Glass:

It was the Romans who began to use glass for architectural purposes, with the discovery of clear glass (through the introduction of manganese oxide) in Alexandria around AD 100. Cast glass windows, albeit with poor optical qualities, thus began to appear in the most important buildings in Rome and the most luxurious villas of Herculaneum and Pompeii.

[jhuston7]

The chemical Manganese Oxide must be added to create clear glass. This was discovered by the Romans. The site given is the largest glass producers portal in the world. One more time Mormon ignrance and arrogance.

[sAME2U22]

It is material like this that is causing nearly 100,000 Mormons per year (and growing) to bail out of the fraud that is Mormonism. There are now more ex-Mormons than there are Mormons. For a church that is supposed to "fill the earth" they aren't doing too well. Just to break even in this rush to fill the earth, LDS would need to convert 75 million /yr (the number of humans added to the population of the earth yearly.

Good-bye Mormons. Good try--but it is finished here--try Kolob.

[omiolo]

glass was invented, as far as we know, in 3000 BC by the Sumerians. If you are wrong about this then.....

[jhuston7]

Are you serious omiolo? Glass is obsidion and is black glass beads created with fire in 3000 BC is completely different from plate glass (window glass) from the 11th century. Blown glass did not occur until the time of Christ. You don't make windows from glass beads or blown glass. You are showing your ass.

[omiolo]

jhustler,

you have a problem with the truth. Glass was made in 3000 BC by adding silica to sand and then adding color if needed. Nice try. If you are wrong about this then.........

[jhuston7]

omiolo, what did they make out of this glass? Beads, glazes for pottery, (3500 BCE) ornamentation and molded items like vases (1500 BCE) were all that was made until about the time of Christ. Caste glass was invented by the Romans at about 100 CE. Look it up and stop showing an apologists tendancy to try to use such weak scraps of evidence to support your ignorance. This is not "anti-Mormon," this is history and science. I guess all history and science conspire against Mormons.

[jhuston7]

omiolo, I really like the way the name calling starts as soon as it is pointed out that you are being dishonest. Such a Mormon. Love and kindness - not in Mormonism. Typical Mormon ad hominem attack. You still don't have anything worthwhile to say, do you?

[jhuston7]

Starting off with ad hominem early are we? Still trying to distort reality as well? You obviously know you are already beaten or you would not use such tactics. Glass beads and glazes for pottery were made around 3500 BCE. Molded items for ornamentation such as vases were made around 1500 BCE. Blown glass and caste glass (first usable semi-clear glass) was first made around 100 CE.  Plate glass was another 1000 years. This is not opinion or anti-Mormon. This is science and history.

[omiolo]

Mr. Lamborn,

I don't know where you get your information from but steel was invented before 1400 BC. Please check your research. So Nephi using steel in 600 BC is very possible. If you are wrong on this then......

[jhuston7]

Meteoric steel was used in some instances at that time. Smelted, high carbon steel, or Wootz Steel in the Middle East was Damascus steel around the time of the Crusades. The earliest known Wootz steel was 400 BCE. The Crucible process used to make spring steel was more than 1000 years later. Don't you think we have studied and know this stuff? You are really showing your ass here omiolo. Mormonism is lies and deceit.

[omiolo]

Mr Lamborn,

you argue that you need to know all the propaganda. The purpose of the LDS church isn't to give you every item of garbage ever written about the Church and let you cipher through it. You would spend years and wasted time not serving your fellow man, instead looking for truth from people who don't care about truth. Then once you did you would need to read the next pile of propaganda and so forth. I don't expect you to see my point but hopefully others more open minded will.

[jhuston7]

omiolo,if people are open minded and look at the facts, the only conclusion people can reach is that Mormo0nism is a fraud. Most of the information I use to prove it a fraud comes from their own historical records. I guess they are "anti-Mormon propaganda." It is the people who have left that care about truth.

[sAME2U22]

That's right, omiolo, the LDS Church is not going to give you "EVERY item of garbage" so they have decided to give you SOME. The search for truth is NEVER a "wasted time".

[ElderGeorgeCarlin]

The Mormon Church is corrupt organization that suppresses information.

It punishes it's own members who strive for knowledge of church history and if they come to the conclusion the church is not what it claims...they will excommunicate or disfellowship if people discuss it with others. Church leadership simply wants people to shut their mouths and keep it to themselves.

It's deceptive, disgusting, and immoral. I resigned last Summer because of the ongoing dishonesty of the LDS Church.