Past, Present, Future by Amanda Baggs

[JujuBeara]

Guys google "Amanda Baggs Autism Controvery' and read the blog. Several students who went to school with her came forward to CNN that in school she acted normal and talked normal until doing acid. Amanda even blogged and said sorry for saying she had multi personality (self-diagnosed) & then said it was really schizophrenia (which was diagnosed) & now she says autism (self-diagnosed).

[TheAutumBlog]

You guys do realize that it's a fact that Amanda is a fraud, right? It's been proven... check out the Amanda Baggs Controversy blog site. It's got her whole history including dozens of testimonies of people who knew her throughout her life. She used to have a boyfriend, be sexually active, experiment with LSD, and everything....

[raptorsclaw]

An excellent video post. I was awstruck by Ms Baggs presentation. If your havn't seen it yet- IN MY LANGUAGE; please watch it.  It is a blessing to all of us, just as we all have the ability to bless out comunity.

It is important to REAL-IZE that no two are alike. We all have something to contribute. And, we nobody is indepenent; WE ALL EFECT EACH OTHER. Be the posative effect, open your mind, count your blessings, SHARE WITH OTHERS, and ALLOW OTHERS TO SHARE WITH YOU!

Thank You

[Aspergianstar2009]

I don;t think she has it so 60 negative stars for this

[SilentDarkWolf]

You don't think Amanda has autism? She does. After all the crap that anyone who is autistic has to go through, you should know better. You are no better than the bullies.

[ZIVAFUKI]

so nice

[corepotentializreal]

This is inspiring. Not just for autistic people but everyone who feels invalidated for being marginal, crazy, too sensitive, weird, a freak, wrong, childish, savage... If we force ourselves to adapt, we are just accepting the environment as okay. it's not okay. there isn't something wrong with us, the world we live in is what's "handicapped" "disordered" and "crazy"

what do you think of ABA therapy?

[patrick95350]

I accept my daughter for who she is and I just want to help her negotiate this crazy place called the world, and with that she's blossomed. I think the parents who are railing against the autism and trying to "cure" their child are doing themselves and their child a huge disservice. Help your child, love your child, give them tools to negotiate this world without fear or pain, and be happy. Love who they ARE not who you thought they should be.

[patrick95350]

Thank you for making this video Estee. My daughter is ASD and I'm pretty sure I am undiagnosed. My daughter is 3 1/2 years old and I am not trying to change her, I am not trying to "cure" her... She suddenly started to talk a lot earlier this year and now people (other parents) tell me, oh she must have been mis-diagnosed... but no she is definately still autistic and she still needs services and I'm afriad she will lose them b/c of uneducated people.

[CaliAllyE]

Fairly sure I'm undiagnosed myself, This actually often happens. I have many friends who were initially dianosed aut, including my nephew (now part of management in large corp.) most of whom seem to be doing better than I am. My son had fairly severe (needing hospitializatio)n OCD, yet as a (sideman) musician has played Madison Square Garden, the Tonight show, etc. And NOT as a human oddity, but on his own merit. So, keep experimenting. And be flexible.

[XxAngeliclilkittyxX]

i saw her article in wired, i have AS :(, but not severe autism, i certainly wish the "normal" people could get along with ppl with AS and autism, just becuz we r different dosen't mean we rnt ppl

[Shamr0cka]

"normal" people can kitty, I promise you there are many of us out there that speak your language. We're fighting, believe me =)

[mckeig]

Dear Amanda,

I read your article in WIRED and decided to watch your video. I think you are an amazing human being. Your strength is an inspiration and your ability to communicate far surpasses most of the "normal" people I know. I'm glad that technology has finally served a noble cause--giving you a means to cross linguistic barriers established by our narrow-minded society-AK

[hvetebroed]

Hooray for you!

[christiner808]

Thank you Amanda for teaching me several very important lessons about autism. I will hold your message in my heart and mind forever.

[seed8888]

whats the name of the song?

[Shannonbarnesdr1]

i also hope one dayy ou and me can chat, you have good sense of humor and i like to make friends withyou i respect you. me , i am autistic oman too, i turn 25 this november, when your b day ? you can email me ify ou like on the youtube messages, i love to say hi :-) peace take care

[Shannonbarnesdr1]

once again, amen, i always loved your woek amanda, i am autistic and proud, i hope i get to meetyou some day.. i am movign to vermont in a year, so mayb wi can meet i used to be a disability speaker aceptance, not cure, not prevent, accept value repsect love equal :-)

[drmaier]

Amen.

[momof2boyswithautism]

My son who is "high functioning" per our state DHS; has shown medical improvement and no longer qualifies for a ill and handicapped waiver. I guess he's cured. (HA!)So much ignorance- there is no cure- should there even be a cure? I don't know- I DO know- he still has autism- he fits better into society- but trust me- has too many traits to fit into 500 words. Thanks again for the education.

[taaproject]

music from Cirque du Soleil. It is called "Too Fragile to Walk On" from Biosphere albumn.

[DeerEatingWildOnions]

what is the music used in this video?

[JoeSkipsey]

When you lay claim to a stance like this, it leads a message that no one should speak ill of your organization, lest they be condemning their child. As well, you give these parents two options: Join us, or your child faces institutionalization.

Just because they are not your willing followers does not make them without ideas. They may be doing something seperate, yet similar. They are working towards these skills to be gained, and that you feel they will fail is an insult to these parents.

[woodessence]

JoeSkipsey, it looks like you are reading a lot of absolutes into Amanda's words. How many times do you see the words "may" and "might" in the above video ?

[JoeSkipsey]

It represents chance. And gambling on your child's future? What Parent would EVER do that!?

They have to choose, by this, a gamble of their child becoming able to fit into soceity, or a certainty offerred here, in the ND.

There's now a chance they'll hurt their child with their words, a chance that they will hurt their daughter, their son.

No parent wants to gamble that.

[silentmiaow]

I haven't been turned into a kind of person who can fit into society. Society has been at least partially turned into a place that allows people like me into it, and my family and I have been made aware of places where this has happened. You got me completely backwards there.

[JoeSkipsey]

I see your point. However, the crux of the issue I have is that by telling parents that, by being in a stance against Neurodiversity, they may be setting themselves against what might be their children's future. No loving parent would do this, and thus, it is a catch 22. They're not going to want to hurt their child, but if they don't want to, they may not speak ill of Neurodiversity.

It's playing a moral highground using moral blackmail, much like the Church of old.

[silentmiaow]

Not by being in a stance against Neurodiversity, but rather by claiming that autistic adults have nothing to say of the condition of autistic children, and are in fact of an entirely different 'species' than their children in a sense and thus their information totally irrelevant.

Also if someone accepts as a given that institutions are the place for a certain kind of person, then they will not take steps to make other places for the same kinds of people, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[JoeSkipsey]

Are you the same as when you were a child? People change. Just because the parents refuse to follow the path laid before them by Neurodiversity does not mean that they are wrong, so long as the destination is the same; A better life for their child.

The parents do not want their chilren in institutions. This is their fear. They try hard to ensure that this is not where their children will end up, and you tell them that they are condemning their child to that fate?

[silentmiaow]

Anyone who says that certain sorts of people inevitably require an institution and no other sort of place, are part of those who condemn people to that fate. That goes for parents, autistic people, anyone, no matter how much love or hate or caring or apathy they have for anyone.

As I said, my issue isn't them refusing to follow neurodiversity, it's what they publicly say about what sort of person will end up where. It's wrong when "neurodiversity" advocates do it, too.

[JoeSkipsey]

You judge all on the words of few. You assume that the only right way is your way. Anyone else will fail if they do not follow Neurodiversity, and their children will be institutionalized.

If it is wrong, then why do you tell them that by trying to give them these skills, they are condemning their children? By placing institutions and the parents together, you bind the system to their intents, and misrepresent both.

You should be ashamed at your twisting of parental love.

[silentmiaow]

Not what I said. If anyone, whether ND or not ND, says that a type of person will inevitably be institutionalized, then that contributes to that kind of person being institutionalized, because it contributes to an overall prejudice that upholds the status quo w/ institutions.

This goes for physical, cognitive, any disability. Nursing homes, psych wards, developmental, group homes, any kind of institution. Anyone saying Group A must be in Place B contributes to Group A ending up in Place B.

[JoeSkipsey]

By inaction, the parents support the system then, without even knowing it. By not working to change institutions, paents are condemning their children to them?

This is a slap to the face of any parent of an Autistic child who has NOT gone to an instituton. Parents who worked to keep their children out of the institutions, and those who are working on it now.

[silentmiaow]

By SAYING that certain kinds of people belong in institutions, people contribute to people being in institutions. That's what I mean. If I said pure inaction then I misspoke and I'm sorry.

People are not all good or all bad. I've done things that contributed to things like institutions. I wouldn't have stopped if it was so evil to tell me I'd done those things.

[silentmiaow]

By the way, it's less work to NOT say something than it is to say it. And NOT saying that kind of thing would be sufficient.

[JoeSkipsey]

It would, but for the fact that it is insufficent to bring out the whole picture.

[silentmiaow]

It's possible to bring out the whole picture, even say someone is at risk of being institutionalized, without making it sound inevitable for that class of person in every place and time.

[silentmiaow]

And no, I am definitely not the same as I was when I was a child (who is?), but I certainly remember my childhood well enough. You keep making this about "following neurodiversity" and in doing so miss my points entirely.

[JoeSkipsey]

Is it not? What other organization will show them what they must do? What other organization must not be opposed?

I am not trying to debate the actions of a few fools. I am trying to show you that you are catching them all in a catch 22, with either being known as an unloving parent, or their voice as a parent, is the price to pay.

This is for all parents, should they try to teach these skills, to try to keep their children out of institutions.

[silentmiaow]

It's not about what organization must not be opposed. It's about ways to oppose people that are counterproductive and unethical no matter who they're directed at. I didn't say a thing about unloving either. I can't believe how hard it is to have a conversation with someone who seems to read things I said that I never said.

[JoeSkipsey]

It's called reading between the lines. Weighing words, which point towards implications. If any loving parent would not do what they do to ND to their child, then by doing it, they must not love their child.

A sad conclusion.

[silentmiaow]

Yes, it's called reading between the lines. A really bad idea when you are speaking to an autistic person, unless you know that person well.

*sigh*

You can love someone and still unintentionally harm them.

My mom signed the papers that authorized a drug against my will that almost killed me. She loves me, she did it because she loved me and was told it was my last hope. She didn't know it would happen.

[silentmiaow]

With regards to what's actually between the lines of my writing.

You might want to get acquainted with the disability rights movement, in depth.

Then you might know what's actually between the lines.

Which is nothing about telling parents they don't love their children. But is about potential effects they might not realize of their behavior on their children now or in the future.

[JoeSkipsey]

You don't get it. You're making the life of their child a gamble on institutionalization or freedom, and any parent who has or is keeping their child from an instituion to be supporting institutions, and the few bad eggs and bigots handing you a paintbrush and standing with responsible parents who only want what they think is best for their child. Their greatest joy, and their most important responsibility.

[silentmiaow]

The life of any disabled person IS a gamble on institutionalization or freedom, whether you or I like it or not. It's the same way most people don't want to realize how close they are to homelessness. Some people don't want to realize how close disabled people are to institutionalization. I didn't create the problem, just reported it. People aren't either 'good' or 'bad'. Everyone's a mix and we have choice to how much of which we'll do, everyone does some things right and some things wrong.

[JoeSkipsey]

But you see, the gambling lies on this.

Insulting ND. If you insult ND, you are an unloving parent. Therefore, you cannot insult ND. In essence, it's saying "shut up."

Look at it this way; Do you think that those who have avoided the institutions, thanks to getting these skills needed to keep them out, hate their parents? Do they join ND? Do they think it was bad of their parents to love them, to keep them from the institutions, to get them the skills?

No.

[silentmiaow]

You don't get it. It's not about insulting ND.

It would be just as wrong if they were doing it to for instance Sue Rubin, who as far as I know is not ND.

And I never said gaining skills was bad, or that getting out through just about any means necessary was bad.

You are putting words in my mouth over and over and it's impossible to talk to you.

[silentmiaow]

Why do you think teaching skills has to mean publicly insisting that people without those skills must inevitably be institutionalized? I know lots and lots of people (both ND and not ND, if you're wondering) who teach skills and advocate for the kind of community services that allow us to have this conversation. I don't see a contradiction. Why do you?

[JoeSkipsey]

I don't. However, that is an implication born of 1:23 of the video. If you teach the skills, rather than try to change institutions, the implications are fairly straight-forward.

Invariably, in the video and your comments, it has been implied, at least from my point of view, that a chance to fail, and have your child institutionalized, is a chance no parent wants to take. Therefore, they must do as they are told in the video, and change institutions.

[silentmiaow]

I don't know about a chance no parent wants to take. I know it's something few children want looming over their heads or experiencing. Institutionalization should not be the price of failure. I understand that some people don't have the time to work to change those things, but if they don't work to change those things in any other way, the least they can do is refrain from publicly proclaiming that certain kinds of people belong in institutions.

[silentmiaow]

Which is an instance where it is actually easier to do the right thing than the wrong thing. Or at least easier to do something neutral than something destructive.

[JoeSkipsey]

What do you know of right, wrong, and neutral? Have you any idea just what being neutral has gotten me? One of your dear little followers harassed, abused, debased, discriminated, insulted, defamed, libelled, and stalked me, and two ladies who were on my blog.

Want to know the reasons? Here, I'll message them, along with the name.

[silentmiaow]

If I don't know the reasons (and I don't), then obviously I didn't tell the person to do it and am not responsible for their actions, even if they claim to be acting on my behalf. I would never tell anyone to do things like that, in fact when people have tried in my presence to do wrong things on my behalf I have told them explicitly not to.

Neutrality usually supports the status quo, so not always the best thing to do, but it's better than active wrongdoing.

[silentmiaow]

And that's just one part of what I happen to know about right, wrong, and neutral.

Telling me I don't know about right and wrong because some asshat whose name I don't even know doesn't know about right and wrong isn't logical (or, for that matter, either right or neutral).

[silentmiaow]

Also, I don't have followers, at least not volitionally. If I did have followers, as in people who actually did whatever I said (which sounds awful, frankly, in many ways), then they would not do those things to you. Those things are wrong and shouldn't be done to anyone.

[silentmiaow]

Also, you can tell whoever it is, that they're NOT doing it on my behalf and that if they actually want to do what *I* want, somehow, then they ought to knock it off because I wouldn't ask someone to do anything immoral for me.

[silentmiaow]

Additionally, they were making specific assertions about the capabilities of autistic adults capable of opposing them. "If you can talk, you don't need help" etc. I was saying that if that view got out there, then when their children grew up, and learned to talk, but might need help, then the stereotypes they helped create would harm their children. Not because they opposed neurodiversity, but because they used false assertions about the ability patterns of autistic people in order to do so.

[JoeSkipsey]

Not all parents who oppose ND are prejudiced, which is more than I can say about ND, apparently, since you believe that.

Not all parents who don't agree with Neurodiversity are like that, and this video disservices all of them.

[silentmiaow]

I wasn't saying that parents who don't agree with ND are like that. I was responding to very specific people and their very specific views. I did not create the video. The video quoted my article that was a response to specific people. If you're not like that it's not directed at you. I know non-ND ppl who work against institutions and are not the people I am responding to. I also know ND ppl who have the same prejudice I am responding to.

[JoeSkipsey]

If it's true that this is a specific response, then it should have stayed that way. On youtube, all it serves to paint people who fit the model of a parent with an Autistic child who does not agree with ND with a brush of ignorance, bigotry, and a lack of love for their child.

It was specific to an argument. To that argument, it should have stayed specific, and off of youtube.

[silentmiaow]

The part of it I had any part in (which does not involve putting it on youtube) stands whether it's on youtube or not: It's a warning about possible unintended consequences, and in that capacity a person's "ND" status is irrelevant.

Do you think that people whose actions have consequences they don't intend, are ignorant, bigoted, and unloving? I don't. Do you think that only "non-ND" people make the mistakes I mentioned? I don't.

[silentmiaow]

Or do I have to now qualify every statement I make (and make sure everyone who quotes me does the same) just because some people who are not me classify me as something called "ND" and imagine between the lines that everyone I criticize must be outside this imaginary category? Because that is impossible. And I get the sense you're just going to insist I'm saying things I'm not saying, no matter what I say, because of the categories in YOUR head. Not my head.

[JoeSkipsey]

This was what you said to people who were talking down on Neurodiversity, the organization. This was a response, specifically to anti-ND parents. A specific to that argument response.

This video, using your words here and not there, has no place on Youtube. This serves no purpose but to drag out that argument, to drag this specific response to become non-specific, and to make a small argument an accusation to all those parents against ND.

[silentmiaow]

There is no such organization as Neurodiversity. This discussion took place in a debate over whether a specific so-called "treatment" for autism was medically necessary. The term "ND" wasn't even in use yet to my knowledge, and I don't think the woman who bore the brunt of the attacks (and they got very personal and defamatory) had ever even used the word neurodiversity in any of her arguments, which were based on science and ethics.

[JoeSkipsey]

Basically, what's the point of putting this here? Who put it here? Why? Tell me the reason.

[silentmiaow]

Again, I'm not a mind-reader. Ask Estee. Why do you expect, even *demand*, me to jump inside her head and figure out her motivations?

[dinahkcm]

Basically what is the point of persistently hassling Amanda, who did not make this video? Please go and have a look at some science - No Autistics Allowed is a great place to start - and/or communicate your complaints to the taaproject directly

[silentmiaow]

People were making an argument by false dichotomy at the time. I challenged it and suggested that arguing by false dichotomy could harm their children even if they didn't mean it to. That still holds true above and beyond that specific argument. And it holds true whether someone has been force-fitted into the category of "ND" or not (there are "non-ND" people who get the point just fine without feeling insulted by it).

[JoeSkipsey]

What point is there to putting this here? Where is the flase dichotomy? What is going on with the woman who argued science and ethics? Just what purpose does this video serve here, and now?

[silentmiaow]

The woman who argued science and ethics is named Michelle Dawson, a Canadian autism researcher. Look her up. She has a website called "No Autistics Allowed". She was the resident autism scapegoat before I was.

Talk to Estee Klar-Wolfond, a Canadian parent, about why she put the video up. Ask her these questions. I'm tired of having conversations with your imagination. Her username is taaproject. Have fun.

[FynFlyte]

Michelle Dawson is not an autism reseacher. She is a postal worker. She delivers mail.

[innerpig]

That's ridiculous. ANYBODY who researches autism is an Autism Reasearcher. Someone call the slander police!

[FynFlyte]

It is slander to say that someone delivers mail? What country do you live in/ I have been stuDying auism for the last ten years. Am I an autism researcher?

[silentmiaow]

But, yeah. No such organization as "Neurodiversity". Doesn't exist. I still feel as if I am holding a conversation with your imagination, and that your imagination steadfastly refuses to contain me, what I'm saying, or any of the other people involved in this, it's like you WANT me to be attacking "non-ND" people and won't let it go even though I'm not.

[99mountainrose]

The words in this video ring true...High above the

rhetoric ...Thank you for this video...and having known Miss Baggs from an early age I can testify to her authenticity... Not that anyone should have to...She has put up with bullies all her life for being different.. and here we go again.....sigh

[taaproject]

I know many of the people who have their articles posted there who are autistic. Amanda's piece is posted there as is Phil Schwarz, Jim Sinclair and others I know. Thank goodness we have this "linux" that has been used to get these articles up there -- very important in our research into disabilities, disability studies and human rights.