Is Public Healthcare a Right or a Reward? - Julio Frenk

[guyjohn59]

Did the millions of Russians that starved to death under Lenin and Stalin have 'the right' to not starve to death? Probably; but because they believed in that right, they starved to death.

[davedavedaveannoy1]

Just doing some math and found the average person spends approximately $6,280 on healthcare a year (national average). Now multiply that about 307,000,000 Americans (and imagine an increase of about 1.5% a year). That comes to 1,927,960,000,000 in costs a year. And consider the amount of people flocking to it once its completely free, it just about quadruples. Now ask yourself liberals, CAN WE FUCKING AFFORD THAT? DO YOU REALLY WANT A PRACTICALLY 100% INCOME TAX AND A BANKRUPT NATION FOR THIS???

[swu880]

All rights are derived from property rights. its a shame that there are Americans who dont even understand the elementary concept of property rights yet they have a nerve to even claim to be American- such foolish ignorance

[Anarkokommunist]

Wow, what an idiot.

Healthcare is not a right.

[TheAleska1987]

I just dont understand how you can 'reward' somebody for caring for their health. So an expectant mother is rewarded when a doctor helps to deliver her baby? Im not getting the logic behind this. A 72 year old man going into cardiac arrest is rewarded when paramedics give him life saving treatment...I feel by THIS definition your saying poor people DESERVE to die. If you are indeed REWARDING them with LIFE by giving them good safe medical care.

[swu880]

@TheAleska1987

i suggest u learn just what is a right. go learn about property rights

lol

you have NO right to "free" food, education, housing, clothes, computers, cars, or any commodity! And u sure as hell don't have a right to "free" healthcare! Right is something inalienable not given by any collective & not by any govt! Govt can not give u rights- it can only give certain 'privileges' to a few while trampling on the REAL RIGHTS of the individual.

[kmg501]

This man is a liar, the polls DO NOT show what he claims. There is not now and never has been a right to enslave people to satisfy your wants.

[mmingione]

A constitutional right is a freedom granted by a government. Rights are derived from the people themselves and they protect the people from government overreach. Healthcare does not fit this idea. Instead it is a service. I suppose that the speaker means that it should be a service guaranteed by the government?

[LeGioNoFZioN]

if health care is a right, can you sue the government if you die because their wait times prevented you from accessing health care in the time frame needed to successfully combat your affliction ?

that is one problem here in Canada, if you can't get it soon enough, you have no recourse through the government to get the health care you need, thus violating one of your rights.

[bigtex501]

NEED TO KNOW? Decide for YOURSELF! Google (copy & paste) below sentences... . health care reform bill will begin in 2013 at the earliest Democrats mandate health care insurance CBO September 16 2013 requirement for residents to obtain health insurance obama cuts billions from medicare The goal is to reduce costs and "guide" your doctors decisions (H.R. 1 EH pages 442, 446) obama legalize illegals to get them health care Democrats declare that a Value Added Tax should be added

[yoshi3329]

I believe it's a right.

You have the right to take your hard earned money and purchase health care, and you have the right not to and not have the government hound you if you want to spend that said money on video games, vacations, cars ect. You also have the right not to bother me when you play Russian roulette with you very life. Want to eat fattening foods? Fine, just don't bother me when you need medical treatment.

M'Kay?

[ls1z28chris]

Have you seen the Reason TV video entitled "No American Should Have to Choose Between Health Insurance and Getting Drunk?"

Hilarious and poignant at the same time. As you say, people earn money and make choices with their income. If they choose to spend their money on video games, vacations, cars, supplements, alcohol, or designer clothes, they shouldn't bitch about not having health insurance and try to claim it as a right. What they need to do is rearrange their own priorities.

[St00sh13]

The people we are talking about do not spend their money on video games/booze/ designer clothes. They earn barely enough to have a roof over their head and food, never mind think about health insurance.

[Daniel44125]

You don't live here to come up with the conclusion of where they spend their money. Here people don't die because of lack of health care. The left would try to make you believe that but it simply isn't true. If you are in a state where you require healthcare or death, you get treated by law already.

[St00sh13]

"... If you are in a state where you require healthcare or death, you get treated by law already ..."

Doesn't that mean it is already a right?

p.s. I live in the UK where we have a very good health service. And here, health is a right. Particularly since we pay towards it on national insurance/taxes.

[Daniel44125]

Nope its not a right. You still have to pay for it yourself. The law states they can't deny you treatment due to your wealth status. That is only in cases where its life or death. You really never get denied here in any case. You just have to pay for it after wards. There are many charities though. Low income people can get charity for any treatments very easily. They also can get government healthcare already(its unconstitutional but exists)

[St00sh13]

Nope, you don't "have" to pay for it.

If your illness, in this country, stops you being able to work and pay taxes, you still get treated.

Erm, try getting dialysis on charity. Not possible.

Actually, get kidney failure in America, and you will find your insurance company will drop you like a stone (or make your payments so high you can't afford it).

Then, your house will go towards paying for it, the the illness will stop you being able to work, then, without universal care, where are you?

[Daniel44125]

Someone else pays for it. Your insurance company does not drop you. That has been way over blown and is a lie. That happens rarely and medicare which is government provided denies care on a far more scale. You can get any treatment in the states on charity if your income is lower then 21k a year. In fact there is entire hospitals that provide free care to children on charity. I live near one of the best hospitals in the world. People flock here to that hospital from all over the world.

[Daniel44125]

Canadians with so called free healthcare come here to my city all the time. It's true. I used to work at the Cleveland Clinic. Canadians come for simple things like broken legs. They get life flighted here from Canada due to long waits. The free market can lower costs. Something has to be done but not Obamacare. They need to drop stupid state regulations. 1700 insurance companies and most states have only a few that can do business. That's government created monopolies.

[ls1z28chris]

Who the hell are you talking about? I realize it is anecdotal, but check out the video I referenced above. People who admit to spending hundreds of dollars a month on stuff like supplements and designer clothes blaming their lack of health insurance on the government not giving it to them.

The notion that socialized medicine is for the poor is a canard.

[yoshi3329]

Yes I have seen reason video, it was very insightful. I've learn many things from their blog and videos. ^-^

[koolakalle]

Reward.

[St00sh13]

A reward for what?

[Anjimom]

Great conversation to have!!

Dying because you have no healthcare is your punishment for not buying an invisible product.

[voyeurdug]

Would sign off on primary healthcare to include basic first aid, routine checkups and maternity care as rights. Beyond that, specialized care at the executive direction of a primary healthcare physician, some small part of a minimal level should be a right, but most would have to be directly compensated care. That's when insurance would kick in, and as a fee-for-service, it could be shared between the insured payer and the state on a sliding scale of necessity over ability to pay.

[ls1z28chris]

Why in the world would the dean of the school of medicine at Harvard cite a poll of the general population as evidence that health care should be a right?

This is why what theblur34517 is so relevant. If you start polling poor, lazy people on what they think they should receive on right as Americans, they're going to tell you food, shelter, a car, a flat-screen TV, cable, ad nauseum. People want free shit. This is why we're supposed to have a republic and not a democracy.

[St00sh13]

"Why in the world would the dean of the school of medicine at Harvard cite a poll of the general population as evidence that health care should be a right?"

Because rights are brought about by a consensus.

"People want free shit"

A: it's not free

B: It;s not shit, it's people's lives/health

If you needed healthcare for some reason and you had already used up all your assets to pay for it. Would you be happy for society to say, well, he's poor, it's his own fault, he shouldn't get healthcare?

[ls1z28chris]

Yes, I would be happy for society to say that.

I could take your words and insert things like food, shelter, and transportation, and you would have just as equally invalid an emotional argument as you do now. "Would you be happy for society to say, well, he's poor, it's his own fault, he shouldn't get food?" Yes. A house? Yes. Transportation? Yes.

Rights aren't brought by shifting momentary consensus, "Two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for dinner."

[ls1z28chris]

The very concept of rights loses its meaning when it is decided that they can be shifted and redesigned by transient moral standards. If a consensus says gays shouldn't marry, then that isn't a right. If a consensus says round up the illegals and put them in camps, then there is nothing to stop us. If a consensus negates all rights in the face of fear of terrorism, then we're left assed out with zero rights.

Again, this is why we live in a republic, not a democracy.

[stengevarsel]

Your republic is a democracy, albeit perhaps not a direct democracy where the people vote on every issue.

[St00sh13]

Rights do shift. Slavery was there by consensus (of those "polled", admitedly).

Rights have to shift, else we would still have slavery/no votes for women etc.... The international treaty on human rights hasn't always existed, it does change and, it includes healthcare!

I am confused what happens when healthcare is not a right.

If it is a privilege, who gets that privilege?

If it is a reward, what is it a reward for?

[ls1z28chris]

Slavery: Thirteenth Amendment to the Bill of Rights.

Woman's Suffrage: Nineteenth Amendment to the Bill of Rights.

Thanks for at least recognizing that fundamental shifts like those require an actual consensus, and not Senators slamming through legislation with simple majorities using legislative rules intended for budgetary and procedural matters.

What happens? The same thing that happens when food, clothing, and housing are not rights: You work, earn money, and then pay for them.

[St00sh13]

Then, if I lived in the U.S., I would be fighting for a new amendment to make healthcare (at least at a basic level) a constitutional right, just like many other developed countries.

You can substitute food/clothing if you like, but I would argue they are also a right, Unless you feel it is right to leave another human being starving to death.

Also, if someone needs a lot of healthcare they can quickly become poor. Should they be left to die.

[Daniel44125]

You don't even live in the US so don't even comment. And you don't understand our constitution either. First rights aren't derived from it, they existed before it. They are unalienable. They can't be written or amended away. The way its written, the 9th amendment states that even if amended as a right healthcare wouldn't be because it would violate other rights such as right to property and privacy. Those are natural rights.

[St00sh13]

I am so glad I don't live in America. Health care does not violate property or privacy.

If you really take the idea of the right to Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, then the death sentence should go against the constitution.

Health IS a right and you would demand it for yourself. You are no different from anyone else.

Thank goodness I live in Europe!

[Daniel44125]

Thank goodness you do we don't need anymore socialist leaches. We need producers. Its not a right and it does violate the right to privacy and property. They have to steal money from one to provide it to another. There is free market alternatives. Government has made it expensive in the first place.

[St00sh13]

"... we don't need anymore socialist leaches. We need producers ..."

Erm, you don't understand socialism. Socialism is where the workers own the means of production. It still has producers.

Tax is not theft!

[Daniel44125]

Tax is theft when it takes from one and gives to another. I own my fruits of my labor. No man has a claim on it but me. I understand socialism. It creates incentives to be idle as I said. Hurts workers that produce the most and redistributes their money through a graduated tax to those that produce little or none. Over many years this leads to tyranny. Read a book. Road to Serfdom by F.A Hayek. Get a understanding of economics. Read some Ludwig von Mises. quit being a sheep

[St00sh13]

And, I have every right to comment. It's called free speech. Another right!

[ferrozm]

not a right

[ChaosIsAwesome]

This debate on health care is ridiculous, why is our government so flawed? Because it's run by self-centered retarded men being irrational.

[ZamatoElite]

If healthcare is a right, than so is slavery.

[stengevarsel]

Qualify that seemingly ridiculous statement using the logic of the speaker in this video.

[ZamatoElite]

Explain further. I would like to hear your definition of a "right," than explain to me how healthcare can possibly be a right and remain consistent with all other rights.

[lexave]

@ZaamatoElite

" I would like to hear your definition of a "right," than explain to me how healthcare can possibly be a right"

Did you watch the video? The speaker goes on to give an example of a "right" in the US: education.

Given THAT definiion of "right", what is so hard to understand about healthcare as "right"?

Is the provision public education also tantamount to slavery being a right??

[ZamatoElite]

Their definition of a right is wrong. Education is not a right, because rights are inalienable. A teacher can refuse to educate. If she/he can't, than she/he is FORCED against her/his values to educate. That is the definition of slavery.

[lexave]

Well, if you willingly use a different definition of "right", then of course you'll find that the speaker is wrong... If that's your level of discourse, arguing about definitions rather than content, then there's nothing to discuss.

By the way, I've heard your vapid argument about coercion many times from Libertarians and varieties of anarchists, but none have had the bluster to call it "slavery".

Melodramatic much, are you?

[wmg111]

I'm sure you have some justification for such a statement, I just can't for the life of me figure out what it could be.

When you shake your head does it sound like a seed rattling around inside a gourd?

[ZamatoElite]

To have health care provided to you, someone ELSE must give it to you. That means they must surrender their own values in order to appease yours. That is slavery.

Healthcare is NOT a right. All rights are universal, and all rights are consistent. If healthcare is a right, than so is enslaving your other man.

[St00sh13]

Rights are what society define them to be. If society values something and thinks it should be available to all, then it is a right. That is what makes education a right and, in almost every other developed country, that is what makes healthcare a right.

[liber8me]

no, that is a bloody stupid thing to say.

[ZamatoElite]

Please, elaborate. I'm willing to listen to your laughable understanding of the concept of "rights."

[lexave]

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have an anarcho-capitalist amongst us.

Zamato: what rights do you actually believe in?

[ZamatoElite]

I'm not an "Anarcho-Capitalist." I don't know where you got that from. I'm an anarchist without adjectives.

I do not accept the concept of "Rights" because I am an atheist and an ethical nihilist. A "right" is a moral claim, and I don't believe in universal morals.

However, I am playing the devil's advocate and accepting the philosophy of Rights to illustrate how fucking moronic you people are. All rights stem from the right to your own body. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

[lexave]

Cool, I was going to put "anarchist" and then went back and added in the "capitalist", because I thought you probably believe in property and other such rights (such as the binding of contracts and the rule of law)

[ZamatoElite]

I still do believe in property "rights" to a certain point. I get around the "right" problem by calling it an "inter-subjective consensus." Everyone in society acknowledges that you own X. This acknowledgment is NOT a technical right, per say.

[lexave]

OK, so what is the difference between a "right" and a "consensus"?

Can we reach "consensus" on education and healthcare?

[lexave]

You should calm down with the "fucking moronic" name calling -- it makes you sound like a twelve year old.

I don't believe in universal morals either. That doesn't mean we can't construct something that behaves as such.

Call it "consensus", or "moraaals", or "lkdjfslkg" or whatever you want.

(I actually quite like the "consensus" tag because it really gets to the point. Hmm.)

[ZamatoElite]

My "fucking moronic" comment wasn't really directed at you. There is only so many "Nope, your wrong" comments I can stand. If I'm wrong, than at least tell me why.

"Free" healthcare is better described as a consensus, rather than a right. The word "right" is reserved to theists and moral objectivsts. So I suppose we don't really disagree on much.

[lexave]

Well, you do appear to be intentionally provocative... so maybe you can't really complain. ;)

I don't think it should be called "Free", because ... it isn't, .. and cuz the picture that paints in many people's minds (too much like marketing lies).

I was hoping we'd come up with a novel way of providing universal/national/blah healthcare, like a hybrid of European/Japanese systems, or some such.

Instead, the discussion has been pathetic, completely politicized, and quite frankly, tribal.

[St00sh13]

'The word "right" is reserved to theists and moral objectivsts'

No it's not. I am an atheist, but I use the word rights.

Rights are what every person should have in order to pursue their life freely, without hindrance. No external power/morality needed there.

By rights I do NOT mean something that is morally "right". I mean consensus / agreement.

All of life is a consensus. We have to compromise every day in order to live peacefully with neighbours/colleagues etc...

[ZamatoElite]

A "right" is a moral claim. If you are an atheist, than you are most likely an ethical nihilist.

If you mean consensus, than you are not talking about rights. You are talking about consensus. Two VERY different things.

[stengevarsel]

I agree that health care is not a right, in the way you define a right, as in unalienable. But by using that logic you strip society of what makes it tick in the first place. I am curious as to how a strictly libertarian society would work, governed only by a free market model. Try it over there in the states, because I want to be as far away from such an experiment as possible.

[ZamatoElite]

Fair deal. You Europeans can enjoy your emergent police states.

[stengevarsel]

Odd, I thought the US had the highest prison population in the free world, while our police is unarmed. I guess it must be because people are too scared to commit crimes in my country, or that we are brainwashed by socialist propaganda in our government controlled media.

[ZamatoElite]

If you think I am defending the USA, you are very mistaken. The USA is a tyrannical corporatist play ground. Have our bought out Government manage health care will only make it worst.

The UK is the most surveyed country in the world. 1984 is looking more and more plausible over there with each passing day. It's all because you all foolishly hold the State at a God-like status; capable of solving each and every problem.

Tyranny comes slowly. One regulation at a time.

[thesparitan]

thats not how tyranny happens. no democratic state has ever become totalitarian because of more rules and regulations passed by the representative body of that nation.  I would ask you to read history or even better CIA manuals that talk about how to over throw a democratic country. what you do is actually destroy the infrastructure and support systems of that nation. After you do then find, create, a strong national leader, more likely from the military but not always.

[ZamatoElite]

Well, it would seem we are making history as we speak.

It will be economic and social regulations that will bring about the downfall of the United States Empire. It will be the regulations and surveillance that will bring about the downfall of the UK.

Let me guess, the "support system" of a nation is its economic stability? Every Tyranny has risen to power in the mist of economic collapse. Of course, these economics collapses happen due to Government interference in the economy.

[thesparitan]

thats not the whole truth. I cant think of a government that collapsed, with just a economic collapse. if you think of one I would be happy to hear and discuss that, but as I see it there is no nation that collapse though a economic depression. what I have seen is economic and military catastrophe. you need a nice mix of fear and insecurity. it takes many things to destroy a democracy, and its almost always a military/industrial coup.

[thesparitan]

what country are you from?

[stengevarsel]

Norway. Have fun googling demographics.

[Sardonac]

No.

[gilraen789]

I'm grateful to be a Canadian and have healthcare as my right as a citizen. Because of our universal healthcare, we have a lower rate of infant mortality. Our kids are healthier. Don't all children deserve a good healthy start to life? And, if you want to look at it in terms of productivity, healthy people are more productive.

[theblur34517]

What about food? Is that a right? Shelter? Heating and cooling in some climates? All of these are conected to health care. In fact the matress we sleep on and the air we breath are conected. Where do rights and conditions end? I think it stops being a right for me to have anything when it starts hurting other people and violating their rights. Saying healthcare is an ethical right opens an ugly can of worms.

[m0nkeybl1tz]

That's a very good point, it does seem like a very blurry line. It had always kind of seemed like healthcare=life=a right, but you're right, it's more complex than that.

But I think what this guy is saying is that we should sit down and decide where to draw the line. Should everyone get free mattresses? How about setting broken bones? A dentist? Brain surgery?

I think it would be a good idea to enumerate what is and isn't a right, see how much that costs, and work from there.

[theblur34517]

Oh ya i agree completely that we should talk about it. But i dont think you can call health care an ethical right without calling all of what i listed (along with 1000 other things including what you mentioned) rights as well. To me it guarantees a domino effect that could be a bit dangerous.

[lexave]

Mostly we DO consider food & shelter rights. Even healthcare. We don't (explicitly) condemn people to die for being poor. We house & feed them, and if they go to the ER, we treat them.

You know that the best way to get someone off welfare is to educate them and get them back to work; that is: treat the disease not the symptom. Same goes for health.

Whether you call it a "right" is semantics, but as a society we can discuss what minimal level of provision is both moral and pragmatic.

[Daniel44125]

These people obviously don't understand rights. I see you do. Health care is something you have to provide yourself. Government theft and force can't and shouldn't provide that for you. If you can't afford it seek charity. Government isn't charity, its theft and slavery.

[St00sh13]

"Government isn't charity, its theft and slavery."

That is an extremely cynical viewpoint. Are you an anarchist by any chance?

Many people take your attitude, but if healthcare reforms go through and you require it, will you turn it down?

[Daniel44125]

No I am not a anarchist. Governments have a monopoly on force. That is universally excepted is it not? For government to use that monopoly of force to acquire my property to give to another, would that not make it theft and slavery? Is it somehow better when government does it opposed to an individual?

[Daniel44125]

If healthcare reforms go through it will bankrupt this country as if it isn't already. Hyperinflation is imminent. If it goes through I would be forced to pay for it as I am forced to pay for medicare, medicaid, social security already. If government shall pass it I wouldn't be able to opt out of it.(at least paying for it) I would certainly take back that which government stole from me. Given the chance to opt out, I would rather do that.

[St00sh13]

If times are bad, you are going to need healthcare.

Do you think the health insurance companies are going to be propped up, in the same way the banks were, when their investments fail?

[Daniel44125]

Many already have. Although not health insurance companies. They should have allowed the banks to fail. I don't agree with that one bit. The freedom to fail is very important in a capitalist system. It fixes errors and gets rid of waste. I was highly against that. It was a criminal act not doubt about it.

[thesparitan]

Daniel44125

this is the other part

What usually happens is it creates a longer, harder recession. Businesses are interdependent and ever if they are competitors, they still have positive effects on each other because of trade theory and surplus demand and other economic phenomenon. For example, star bucks actually creates more competition from other smaller coffee shops when it moves into a town.  It has a reverse effect in its monopoly.

[Daniel44125]

We need a massive market correction and a sound monetary policy in order to bring our economy back to reality

[Daniel44125]

If they let corporations fail as they should, better ones would rise up in their place. A smaller company that is run better cheaper. The consumer would always win

[thesparitan]

letting corporations fail in recessions doesnt help production of goods, nether does it create better competition in their stead. there have been many studies on this principle and none that I know of, found that this is actually what happens. that facts dont back up that idea.

Part 1

[Daniel44125]

Banks don't produce anything. The bailouts got us nowhere. The recession would have been harder but not longer. I disagree. I believe in Keyensian economics. The bailout and credit bubble economy such as ours in about to come to an end. I understand businesses are interdependent but our economy is a ponzi economy. It will crash further soon. Its built and credit and consumption

[Daniel44125]

BTW I have a video with a doctor giving a speech on how to fix healthcare here. It is a very good analysis on the issue and he gives some very good fixes. I suggest you and others watch it if you are interested.

[Daniel44125]

I have another video called "Sick in America" another excellent analysis.

[lexave]

Wow, you don't even know the basics of the proposed legislation. How pathetic a loud mouth you are. Been watching too much Fox News?

The current proposed public option is not something you would be forced to pay for. That would be single payer, which for better or for worse, is not currently on the table.

[Daniel44125]

Its an oath a doctor takes voluntarily so in effect your argument is flawed. That oath does not extend to me to pay for their healthcare. I believe in charity and not government theft. I study economics. So don't try to convince me with your socialist bullshit. Healthcare is expensive because of corporatism. That needs to be solved first not trampling individual rights in order to only temporarily solve a problem. Every American social program is bankrupt wake up lemming

[lexave]

"I study economics. So don't try to convince me with your socialist bullshit."

Ah. Unfortunately, it works the other way. Once you've revealed that you are studying economics, your pontifications are put in context, and I can safely ignore you.

Come back when you study a science that actually works.

[Daniel44125]

I don't study lame stream economics, otherwise called Keynesian economics. Which is what got us into this mess. Maynard Keynes was a socialist and is what is taught in our colleges. I am of a different school on economics, Austrian or what our founders implemented so it could be called Constitutional. So my science works. Its the main stream that doesn't. BTW all Obama's advisers are Keynesians.

[MattCutlerMusic]

Daniel44125, You are indeed very well informed.

[Daniel44125]

No I read not just watch Fox news. Yes I would be forced to pay for through taxation. It's NOT "Free". Read a book. I am not a republitard or a dumbasscrat.

[lexave]

If you had read my posts, rather than just telling me to read yours, you would have seen that I do not claim that healthcare is free.

If you think that taxes is "immoral", then fine, we need not continue this conversation any more.

[Daniel44125]

Taxes the way they are implemented are wrong. The are heavily graduated and set up to redistribute wealth. That is immoral and theft. Taxation for government costs like police and fire dep is not. Everyone benefits equally from it. Healthcare is different. Its requires innovation and competitiveness. Free markets provide this best. Our market isn't free. When the market is free the consumer wins.

[Daniel44125]

Read all my posts you cherry picker. You can find some knowledge you are obviously missing in them

[Daniel44125]

I am not going to explain anything to another brainwashed government educated fool. I refer you to my posts and my videos. I don't like peoples lack of health care more then the next guy. I don't like the way our health care is nor how they are approaching to ruin it even more.

[Daniel44125]

There is a free market way to fix health care costs in the states. The government is too stupid and corrupt to do it. Our states have regulations(lobbied for by insurance companies) that prohibited competition by there very nature. They don't allow interstate commerce of insurance companies. Another problem is the nature of the way insurance is used in the states. You use it for every treatment. Insurance is supposed to hedge risk. Meaning it only should pay for catastrophic issues.

[Daniel44125]

Continued- The way the free market works is individuals choose the cheapest doctor and therefore drive down prices. People with insurance just buy from whoever with no regard to price. The invisible hand of the market realizes this and prices go up.

[Daniel44125]

There are other insurance regulations that require insurance companies to cover things I biologically wouldn't need as a man. I don't give birth and don't require a vagina checkup. Sounds stupid but its true.

[Daniel44125]

Another problem is Medicare and Medicaid (government provided) cause more demand for healthcare with the same ill effects as insurance does.( not allowing market forces to work) This extra demand comes without regard for supply of the service. Thus causing inflation. Also the Carnegie foundation and AMA lobbied government to close medical schools in America early last century. This reduced supply of service.

[lexave]

"If you can't afford it seek charity."

You cannot be serious!?! When you are sick or have an accident, the last thing you (should) be worrying about is begging for charity of begging to indenture yourself by borrowing money. And indenture is slavery in all but name.

I hope you never have to experience for yourself what you preach for others.

Are you in favor of scrapping the Hippocratic Oath? Afterall, it FORCES doctors to treat people...

[verstwo2]

damn straight!

[Daniel44125]

Its not a right

[St00sh13]

Every other developed country in the world would disagree with you.

[Daniel44125]

If its a right. You would have to be able to own someones labor as a doctor or own someones property in order to get it if you can't afford it. That is no more then theft and slavery. If its a right then so is everything else. Its not a right and its a responsibility you have to yourself. I don't care what every other socialist country believes. This is America and government was made to protect my rights to property amongst other rights. 9th amendment clearly states that even if amended.

[Daniel44125]

Continued- a claimed right can not trump a natural right. The right to property is a natural right. In order to give healthcare to all you have to steal from certain people using government force.

[St00sh13]

In what way is property a natural right? Who did you buy your property from? Who did they buy it from before that?

And which government treaty allowed someone to take it away from the Native Americans long before that?

I would consider Health and Education to be much more fundamental than property.

In fact I suspect that, implicitly, so do you for the following reason:

Given the choice, would you rather sell your house to keep your health? Or, give up your health in order to have a house?

[Daniel44125]

The right to my property is a natural right. I worked to acquire my property. I own myself therefore I own my property. Stating anything else would be condoning slavery. Property isn't just land you live on. The world belongs to the living, I owe the Native Americans nothing at all. Since you brought up them, look at the utter disaster their health care system is run by our government. I would study economics and read about the nature of rights and wear they are derived if I were you.

[St00sh13]

I didn't say you owed the native Americans anything.

My point was about the nature of property and ownership and how it relates to health/education.

You didn't answer the question about the choice I put forward. I still think you would choose health as more important than property.

[Daniel44125]

Its an irrelevant question. What would I do choose MY health or MY property? The point is it my health to take care of with my property. If my life was in danger I would sell my house to take care of myself. I could get another one as long as I am living. I would never steal from another individual for that. I might ask for charity from loved ones friends and such but charity is volunteered, not theft and force such as government is

[St00sh13]

Paying taxes is not theft!

As far as I am concerned your attitude is rather selfish and you are increasing the stereotyped image we have over here of America as an "I'm alright Jack, raw capitalism, no-one else matters" place where the poor just have to like it or lump it.

You seem to assume that people who are poor are not hard working (far from the truth). Your system of red-blooded capitalism, which underpays and undervalues people, is the reason there are so many poor in the first place.

[Daniel44125]

That same capitalism is what gives those without health care the opportunity to get to a position in life to get to a point where they can afford it themselves. That capitalism has made us a great country. That capitalism isn't why people are poor. Its the scumbag central banks improvising people. Central banking is not part of American capitalism either. Its unconstitutional as well. Paying taxes is theft when its used to redistribute wealth and creates incentives to be idle.

[Daniel44125]

Capitalism has brought more people out of tyranny and poverty then any other system. Socialism is just standing in a bucket trying to lift yourself. You don't improve the hieght of a forest by cutting the tops off the tall trees. You do it by letting the trees grow freely. Free Enterprise Capitalism is not an ideology like Socialism. Its a natural phenomenon. Controlled capitalism/socialism over the past 60 or more years is whats destroying America and making people poor.

[St00sh13]

Raw, unfettered capitalism has failed. The central core of capitalism (the banks) has gone rotten and only exists due to the government using taxpayers money to support them, using a lot more money then they would spend on universal healthcare.

Now that IS theft!

[Daniel44125]

Central banking is not part of capitalism. Free enterprise capitalism has not failed in this country. It was replaced long ago by a socialist system. That has failed. Yes that was theft. All the senators should be hung for that. BTW you don't really understand how that crash happened. It was caused by government regulations such as the Community Reinvestment Act of 77 and its strengthening in 95. It was also caused by access credit and money printing of the central bank(The 5th plank of Marxism)

[St00sh13]

I didn't say central banking. I said the banks. Without banks, capitalism would not work. large companies try to get rid of cash straight away. It is costly. That is where large companies need banks.

The crash happened because bankers got greedy, lent money to people that couldn't pay it back and sold on the mortgaes, repackaged to look better.

[Daniel44125]

You said banks are the center of capitalism. Finance is a part of every system and is not the basis of what makes capitalism. Further more you don't even know what made the banks collapse. The government regulation called Community Reinvestment Act( pushed through by a bunch of socialists in 77) forced banks to give those loans. It had nothing to do with greed or capitalism. The act forced banks to give loans on basis of color of skin alone.

[Daniel44125]

The loans were later sold to a government started and funded bank started by another socialist. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are not part of free market capitalism. They were government established monopolies. Those two companies sold the loans to other banks repackaged.

[Daniel44125]

None of this would have even been possible without a central bank and fractional reserve banking. Another none free enterprise capitalism. The federal reserve system is a government established cartel that allows banks to loan ten times the amount of money that they actually have. In the case of fannie and freddie they can loan 30 times. In effect printing money electronically causing inflation( the hidden tax) impoverishing people

[Daniel44125]

I would pay attention. Fractional reserve banking is world wide not just in America. Here are constitution only allows a silver and gold standard. Of course it is not followed because they adopted a socialist banking system. When a bank prints money through this system it in affect transfers wealth to the well connected, government, and themselves. Check out my video "Fiat Empire"Also "How Our Corrupt Monetary System Works"

[Daniel44125]

If you really want to know what made the economies crash around the world. Read a book called "Meltdown" by Thomas Woods. Hes a Harvard educated historian and an economist.

[Daniel44125]

Banking is not the core of Capitalism. Having freedom to trade and produce without government interference is capitalism. Besides all countries are capitalist. Even Communist ones. Its just a matter of who owns and controls the capital. Here its not called capitalism. Its supposed to be called Free enterprise capitalism. There is a difference

[Daniel44125]

Of course you have a right to comment, it just has no bearing on the matter. You're not American nor pay taxes here.

[Daniel44125]

BTW my family immigrated from Europe. A Communist/Socialist country. I do know what it is and what it does to people. Its nothing but lies and promises that slowly deplete a country of its wealth.

[vicket76]

the fora clock at the beginning is out of whack

[Aaberg123]

Clock?

[vicket76]

it just always sounded like a clock to me at the beginning of the fora videos, but now it sounds like a clock ticking out of synch. i know it has nothing to do with the topic, but i just noticed it and thought to comment on it.