Kyudo: the Director's cut

[bamboo4tameshigiri]

I don't see the point in missing the target, unless it is done on purpose.

[Han893]

so whats the point of this video then???? Zen is created for killing right

[Swordman0]

Without disrespecting any martial arts, kyudokas deserve respect. Looks to me

that takes too much patience, even more than kendo. Or maybe thats my thought

because i see kendo more dinamic than kyudo?

[PQVidya]

They have a rather odd way of drawing the bow.

Usually archers hold the bow itself out on a straightened arm and only draw the string, but these guys seem to be pulling both the bow and the string apart from the middle.

I wonder what the pull strength of those bows is. Such method of drawing the bow must be very taxing, assuming the bow isn't weaker than those used in western style.

[rgregg6]

@PQVidya I respect your observations.

In Kyudo the entire process beginning with attitude is important, but not dependent on muscular strength of the practitioner. Physical position of the body through all stages of the kata are required. The draw is not so much from the middle as it is a well executed, balanced set of motions that situate the kyudoka.

With correct posture and technique, one can come to draw in excess of 33 kg (66 lbs), as I have seen. That is with little effort.

[quangkakashi]

bon nay ve hat ban thi khong cung m cu nhu sap chung tam y ve qua cu ban nhanh nhu nguoi trung quoc la duoc roi can ji phai nhu the nay

ki thuat ban cung chu yeu la nhnah va manh cung voi chuan sac jong nhu la ban sung yai bay jo vay tinh huong gio +anh sang +thanh phan khong khi +ap suat la duoc

bon nay cha tinh ji ca chi hinh thuc la tai

[uexplorer]

@Djemps And when we drive a car the zen way is to ignore traffic signs, lane markers and right of way. It really does not matter where the car goes...haha. Just go with the flow and kill the first unsuspecting granny crossing the road or maybe nudge a few cars off a cliff. In zen, it really does not matter whether you stick to your lane or not :) In fact if you have too few accidents they punish you by raising your insurance lol.

[nomad1545]

They wouldn't use these techniques in battle, would they? You need to be fast and accurate the win battles, so I assume this would be just a way to pratice and achive that mental discipline.

[MrSantiago0789]

@5tonyvvvv Amen. Aikido also sucks ass from straw.

[5tonyvvvv]

@MrSantiago0789 Well its more of a meditation and art form, than a real fighting style, and the same goes for Kyudo.

[MrSantiago0789]

@Djemps Correct. If the art uses a bow, the perfection is shooting very, very well... I prefer meditation rather than this stuff.

[trolltrumman]

0:56 Fujishima sensei?

[the3dguy2]

@Djemps any one can hit a target with a little bit of practice. thats not the goal here. the goal is to empty the mind and archery is a 'way' to achieve that. thats all.

[satansangellight]

@Djemps

People like you don't do kyudo. Another reason to keep practising it.

[CorneliuList]

@Djemps You are not able or ready to understand what is presented in this video. Your chance is exactly that you obviously cannot accept this fact, thus having the possibility to gather, in time, information and wisdom. In fact, what you don't understand -and you are not even able to realize it yet-, and what you should keep trying to understand, is your own self. Ganbatte kudasai!

[t3t5uj1]

Wow 0_0, the traditional kyudo (archery). the bow made from bamboo without stabilizer and dot sight. but now many new generation for archery. with bow made from carbon (recurve and compound) with using stabilizer and dot sight for make each shoot very accurate ^_^ with max range 90m in turnament

[pvsampson]

One would think that after 50 yrs of practice,one would be able to hit the target.I have been shooting bows for over 33yrs and I have found my own rituals and find myself in a state of becoming one with the arrow at times.Kyudo is pretty to watch and I respect the devotion,but I feel the ancient Samurai,originally mounted archers,would be appalled that these modern practitioners cannot hit their mark.Good shooting form results in good shooting,and I do not see any of this here

[NagoyaJoe2002]

@Djemps You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You are apparently an ignorant, foolish person. Keep your unlettered responses to yourself.

[Djemps]

@NagoyaJoe2002 I know that not a single person in this video hit the target at the other end of the archery range.

[DrStoooopid]

@Djemps you've obviously never tried to fire a Japanese longbow. It's an incredibly difficult weapon to master, there are no cams and cables to do the work for you.

[rozniy]

Ummon once replied, "Kanshiketsu!"

[GameSteph]

@Djemps are you kidding me? did you see that samurai guy on the deadliest warrior he fucking shot both the targets eyes out with this art.

[Djemps]

@GameSteph  LOL!! He obviously didn't study at the Dojo featured in THIS film! ... Deadliest Warrior... Thanks for the laugh Steph!

[5tonyvvvv]

@Djemps Kyudo is a highly ritualized exaggerated scam for sure..I am very spiritual, and I love archery I shoot yew and elm longbows, they are much more straightforward..I use overhand grip, not ass backwards yumi style..this is an unnecessary way to shoot a bow, and was never done in the heat of battle..also the bows requires way to much maintenance.Native american and European archery makes a lot more sense than this ridiculous form of archery

[boehmtj]

@Djemps trust me man the master can hit the target its just that he doesnt give a shit if he does or doesnt lol

[Djemps]

@boehmtj A Zen master doesn't 'give a shit'? It seems that you know less about Zen than even I do.

[boehmtj]

@Djemps ok then il try to use "zen" words

"it doesn't matter to me if i hit the target" better?

[Anubis3200]

What's the point of getting a target when you are not even aiming?

[bernhardfranz]

my respect ... you have learned something ...

[1942STALKER]

it's hard to hit small targets with a yew bow

[GregoryPecary]

@Djemps I suppose it depends on what your target is.

[chilismuggler]

@Djemps what's the use of being able to hit a target with a bow? none, today. maybe for applause at a show? to say "I'm a pro archer"? But the ability to achieve your goals by "becoming one" with them is extremely useful always. It's learning to shoot a target that may be measured not by distance or yards but by time. The bull's eye is only seconds away. More important things are not.

[Djemps]

@chilismuggler What is the use of hitting a target with a bow? Have you ever heard of bow hunting? It requires intense concentration to be able to hit the small vital area of a white tail deer from twenty yards. Bow hunting also requires amazing patience; getting up before dawn, waiting all day and into the evening before possibly seeing a deer at close enough range, and then the additional patience of waiting until the perfect moment when the deer is in the right position before shooting.

[1942STALKER]

@Djemps ....... does that even still exist i thought we all use guns by now !?

[Djemps]

@1942STALKER Nope. My father is a Master Bow Hunting Instructor for the state of New York. People still hunt with a bow and arrow all over America, not to mention plenty of other countries around the world.

[Djemps]

Speaking of which, my dad can literally sit motionless for hours on end while suspended 15 feet in the air on a tiny tree stand seat, waiting patiently for a deer to wander within 20 yards of him. Then he has to methodically and silently knock the arrow on the bow string, slowly raise the bow to his ear, draw, and then sometimes wait at full draw for almost a minute until the deer quarters away and exposes its vitals. He's doing the same thing as this Kyudo master, but still hits the target!

[boehmtj]

@Djemps like i said to the other guy the master can sure as hell get a bullseye its just that they dont give a shit

[mlbsmjk2]

Kyudo is not archery !!

Kyudo is kyudo !!

[Aenthropi]

Djemps:

Fancy meeting you here. As I amle a practitioner of Okinawan combatives, I mustle side with you. If the goal is not to strike the mark, the practice should not be called a martial art. It is insulting to the intelligence of the listener. Follow: Martial means for war; means killing; means hitting the mark.

[Filthylosopher]

@Aenthropi I understand your line of thought, but I must disagree. Gendai Budo has a different approach to "war" than Kobudo. Kyudo (rather than Kyuba-jutsu) is a modern japanese martial art, so it would be too harsh to say it's meant for killing. If you insist that what is shown in this video is not a martial art, you should disregard Judo and Shotokan Karate as martial arts as well - since many practicioners don't use these arts to go to war, but as means of refining their spirit.

See ya!

[Aenthropi]

@Filthylosopher The measure is the practice, not the name, not the opinion of a society. Any practice that is not preparing in combat should not be considered a martial art. I would readily disregardle any practice that is off this mark: Shotokan that can not knock out; Wrestling that can not throw; Archery that can not strike; Kobudo that can not beat.

Now, anyone who wants a meditative practice may have it, but he must not misrepresent it or bang and mangle words in having it.

[Filthylosopher]

@Aenthropi When you put it that way, I can't help but agree. You're completely right about that. However I did some reading about Kyudo and came out with an answer to this: "seisha seichū". It's a principle that means: "correct shooting is correct hitting". If you perfect the form and the mind, you'll shoot well - I guess that's what Kyudo is about, not simply meditation. Unfortunately, the way it was put in the video is prone to misunderstanding...

Thanks for the reply!

[youtubister]

2:37 is that another arrow he is holding in his right hand?

[jinden33]

@Djemps It is disappointing to hear your opinion on the matter. What the commentator is talking about s a life-long journey through your own mind. Of course, if you would find a journey through your own mind boring or a waste of time, then who am I to tell you otherwise?

[bushin64]

@Djemps I realize that you are not "in the know" about these things. But your statement is very naive. The product of a very "westernized" mind set.

[Djemps]

@fightjapanrc Well I certainly don't ascribe to the teachings of Zen Buddhism, but I think I understand it enough to grasp the fact that living Zen through a skill or art requires a certain level of perfection or expertise. You don't see people spilling boiling water all over the table when they perform a Zen tea ceremony?

[seannopak25]

why do you have to take off your shirt? can you do it with another shirt inside?

[yinyangthang]

Very odd ti=o have Western classical music in the background throughout the narration--shakuhachi would have been more appropriate and informative, yes?

[fightjapanrc]

@yinyangthang Today I appear to be surrounded by a love of orthodoxy. Any departure from cliche seems to raise ire.

[yinyangthang]

@fightjapanrc Hmm, your response is obtuse...I could interpret it as a refute of my stated opinion, or as an acknowledged agreement with same. I was simply implying that traditional Japanese music would be much more effective than Western Classical music at conveying the serene, meditative, "essence" of Kyudo. What better instrument than Shakuhachi for that purpose? I think backing the video with Western Classical music is actually cliche in this instance. Otherwise a lovely, informative vid.

[5tonyvvvv]

@fightjapanrc Yumi bows are great indeed..i own one,too much maintenance i think..i still view kyudo as an overly exaggerated,overly ritualized,unnecessary way to shoot a bow...this silliness was never done in the heat of battle..have u ever seen turkish archers,or english archers,or native american archers..shooting like this?..could u imagine sword fights this slow?..it really makes no sense...just shoot the fuckin arrow already!!!!!!

[Motownbrother]

@fightjapanrc Yes you are. I started Kyudo a few weeks ago, and yes it is very very very orthodox. More so than judo.

[coredor]

@yinyangthang Only odd in that the choice to juxtapose western music with asian imagery is rare, but its narrow minded to believe that only the shakuhachi is suitable for this. Music is music.

[earthlyinfodotcom]

I find true zen in my backyard with my bow all the time, while trying to hit the target, and without a mean old teacher telling me what I'm doing wrong. Those who argue it must be done a certain way, or that there is no zen in archery because some guy wrote some thing saying so, or technique is more important than accuracy.... you are all over thinking this stuff, and putting your mental puke on the rest of us.

Spend less time looking for flaw in others and more time in silence shooting arrow

[fightjapanrc]

@earthlyinfodotcom True Zen? So you have attained enlightment....?

[igravic]

@fightjapanrc in true zen, i can do more as a handicapt person with 2 x 40 cm titanium inside and along my spine then most healthy people.. and i can't move my head neck and back... all stuck (just found out things about myself and spiritual intunement little to late.. So much hidden in the moment/nature and in you're self, you'd be suprised every time again.. but you're spiritual intunement is key factor.. nature has it's alchemy.

[Sarthex]

@fightjapanrc anyone doing something he loves doing finds "enlightment". no need to tell others what to do, mate ;)

[arumatai]

@fightjapanrc so you can judge if someone has attained enlightment ?

[phdgraffiti]

If your one of those people like me who thinks one has a target put up because their meant to be hit with the arrow, then watch American Byron Ferguson. He can shoot baby aspirins in mid air!!!! And he talks too and otherwise seems like a normal guy. If you'd rather spend 50yrs getting the motions just right and still missing the target then watch this instead. Just another religion I don't understand I guess. Good for meditation though, I suppose.

[sebthrace]

Nice. Kyudo's roots lie in Zen Buddhism and Shintoism, much like many of Japan's rituals and etiquettes. Its ceremonial aspects are seen as a way of life and, when practicing, the kyudoka is encouraged to attain a state of mushin, or no mind.

This is straight from Zen Buddhism, which teaches one to remove the ego completely, instead focusing on enlightenment and understanding. As for Shintoism: before performing a formal shooting ceremony, or sharei, kyudoka give an offering to a shinto altar.

[fightjapanrc]

@sebthrace This sounds about rite. While the the ceremony was Zen the shrines were shinto. Good points.

[CrowdControlFTW]

I'd really like to see any of these guys actually hit the target more than once every hundred years or so...

[Shogunmiyuchan]

Can someone please tell me what the classical music in this is please??

[thewelford]

So, It's like trying to learn a musical instrument without hitting the notes ?

[kyudoken]

Kyudo requires a quiet mind and harmonised body for accuracy and for the beauty of the 'ritual'.

Accuracy comes instinctively as in English longbow archery rather than by aiming .

This is achieved through personal discipline and through following consistent form known as Hassetsu which is the Kyudo equivalent of Kihon or Kata.

Many arts that require years of steady dedication to master can be used for meditation and improving oneself.

In Judging Kyudo only 20 % is scored on the target.

[kyudoken]

There is in this an element of getting the cart before the horse.

Kyudo origins emphasise ceremonial Ogasawara ryu and practical Heki ryu. Kyudo is in the context of Japanese culture using archery tools that evolved within Japan.

The performance follows a breathing pattern similar to meditation breathing but it is not derived from meditative or Zen practice.

The overtly meditative side has been exaggerated since the Meji restoration and with the influence of Herrigel.

[grafleinsdorf]

I don't get the discussion here - some people like television for information, some for entertainment. Some people like kyudo for sports, others for meditation. I do not see any necessity to argue if people are 'allowed' to practice kyudo for meditation or not.

[HekiBerlin]

Kyudo has NOTHING to do with Zen -.-

Its an Martial Art!

The whole Disussion is useless :-/

The misunderstanding that Kyudo is linked to Zen is because of the Book "Zen in the Art of Archery" by Eugen Herrigel.

There is an VERY GOOD Articel about this books and why Herrgiel fails:

The Myth of zen in the Art of Archery by Yamada Shõji

The Article is available on the net.

[bullmeecham]

Idiotic commentary, and very uninformed.

[fightjapanrc]

@bullmeecham Why don't you get a girlfriend if you need attention. You can have pointless arguments with her. Good luck

[HekiBerlin]

if you mean my Commentary: i practice Kudo since 12 years and got the 2. Dan (blacl belt)

Read the article

The Myth of zen in the Art of Archery by Yamada Shõji

(avilable on the net) and get informed ;-)

[bullmeecham]

@HekiBerlin HekiBerlin - The thing is, you've read ONE article and decided that one persons point of view is now THE only one worth considering. It should take more than "one article" you read to make Zen a myth in Japanese archery I'd think. You're a bit of a sap to fall so hard for one idea, & you should consider not believing everything you read. Perhaps you are thinking of Kyujutsu? Regardless, it's silly to say Zen has no attachment to Japanese Kyudo, when it clearly does.

[fightjapanrc]

@HekiBerlin You read one article on the subject and you are now an expert? God, why did I waste all those years in graduate school if any jackass who reads an article is an instant expert.

[bullmeecham]

You're telling me I need a GF because I told Heki he's uninformed, then you do the exact same thing? You need to get a grip my friend. Perhaps figure out how things work on this site so you can tell the difference?

[fightjapanrc]

My apologies.

[HekiBerlin]

@fightjapan: i am an expert because i practice kyudo since 1999 and i have meet some of the Archers shown on this video meet personelly at the EKF-Seminar.

Soory, but there is is only ONE Book who has linked Kyudo to Zen: Its writen by an Non-Japanese (herrigel). Before zen was NEVER linked to kyudo.

And the Articel

The Myth of zen in the Art of Archery by Yamada Shõji is very good! You should read it ;-)

[Kunolamu]

Kyudo, developed from Kyujutsu no? Kyujutsu was the military form. Hit your target. Kill your opponent. Kyudo, is the way of the bow. A spiritual path to using the bow, while we may not understand it. We should respect it. instead of forcing our views upon others.

[Devilock79]

@HekiBerlin

Tai Chi is also a martial art yet millions of people practice it every day simply for the physical and mental benefits. Practical Tai Chi can be lethal though. Kyudo is no different. I'm sure that when the Japanese still used the bow as a weapon, Kyudo was not thought of as it is now. Archery can be especially useful for sharpening the mind as it requires much more concentration than many other martial arts.

[MononofuBlood]

1

@Heki

I read Yamada's article and I have a few replies to the "Kyudo and Zen" back and forth going on here:

Yamada definitely knows his kyudo history and may or may not have some sort of background related to Philosophy (as his jab at Herrigel's "Neo-Kantianism" suggests). However, his whole critique is secured from further criticism right at the beginning of his article when he explains that he will refer to the practice in question as "Kyujutsu" and not "Kyudo".

Continued

[MononofuBlood]

2

@Heki:

This is precisely where the debate begins and to ignore it makes it difficult to take his critique seriously. Let me explain: Once a practice of war (jutsu) becomes a "way" (do) it immediately, directly or indirectly, and whether it (the art) is aware of it or not, assumes a relation to Zen Buddhism.

Continued

[MononofuBlood]

3

@Heki: Once the emphasis shifts from the battle field to the person practicing it becomes familiar with Zen. And Buddhism, being so obscure, lends itself to having gendai budo like Karate-do, Aikido, Kyudo, etc to take a ride in its shadow. Doing this is so easy I can do it myself, observe:

Continued

[MononofuBlood]

4

@Heki:

"To take this posture itself is to have the right state of mind. There is no need to obtain some special state of mind" - Shunryu Suzuki, "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind".

See? To take the effort to try to practice Zen Buddhism, whether it be by Zazen or Kyudo, is itself to have Zen mind. In short, the Kyudo is Zen people have it. The reason? Zen is so general in its ambiguous in its language that any thing that follows certain parameters can claim to be a part of it.

[Tom666999888]

the low bow ist to long ...........

[takatakag2000]

物見うごかすなよｗ

[tsubaki1115]

弓道は固有名詞だからジャパニーズアーチェリーという呼称はあっ­てないんじゃないですか？

[florinbaiduc]

たしか弓道はThe Way of the Bow"のほうがいいとおもいます

[takahasiyumi]

このお爺さん上手ですね

[kwgt]

たしか、だいぶ昔に全日本選手権で優勝したほどのお方だそうです­。

この年齢になっても弓が引けるって素晴らしいことですよね。

[lovepeacebliss]

Kyudo is sooo bad ass

[blackfeatherarchery]

Kyudo is a beautiful form of archery.

[j0vencio]

that's why i'm always sayin to my friends that PATIENCE is a TALENT.

[Israeli88]

What's the name of the musical piece?

[gfgfhgfhgfg]

i think classical music goes well with the content of the video...

Is ther a practical reason for holding an arrow in draw hand?

[dokuroc]

probably  a costume drawn from older times where in war this war can argubly help either shot faster with out the need to take another arrow from the quiver or maybe u can use it when someone get close to the archer this arrow will go for him.

[Igotocostarica]

the background music sucks

[fightjapanrc]

Please choose something you feel is better. Then we could compare.

[Igotocostarica]

no music would have been better.

[6X0X9]

I agree completely. No music would have been better.

[ineedmorenaruto]

japanese instruments would have been nice, but better i dunno

[Hyoujinsama]

The spirit of the thing reveals itself to each person in its own way. To a painter, the spirit of the thing itself is the ritualistic artform that holds meaning for them. For the warrior, the spirit of the thing is oneness with you bow and arrow to achieve your goal of striking at your enemy. For the spiritualist, the spirit is meditation and a way to seek enlightenment.

None are right or wrong, they simply are. It is up to the one who holds the bow to decide what the meaning is for themself.

[walkingbear56]

I don't think I have ever heard it put in such a beautiful and "well aimed way".

Teaching art to teenagers, practicing archery, and following a "spiritual" path... it is funny how they all seem to use the same principals.

[Aikidopoi]

My Sensei is looking to build a new Aikido dojo and wants to include a Kyudo dojo as well. That would be amazing.

[Zennuts1]

Yes...That reply sounds much better.

[Zennuts1]

Hitting the target "not important"? I assumed when you hit the target, you're actually hitting your ego self. If you miss, then your controlled posture of selflessness wasn't enough. For what use is the posture if its not going to do it's own inherited goal? The goal of hitting the target has to be there for the sake of no goal. If the goal of hitting the target isn't important, then the controlled posture that strives for that goal isn't neither.

[fightjapanrc]

Maybe you should not try so hard....

[likes2snipe]

okay maybe whoever wrote the narration should have stated it as the act of hitting the target is not important AS the art itself. I don't think he means "hitting the target is not important"

[Agressor01]

I see you as more correct and pointing out the flaw in the "Zen"

If you and the self as you as the target is the direct principle well then it should be more about the awareness of you as the target directly in which you always have your self and can never miss. Not hitting the target and not caring is like saying "mistakes are nothing" in which they are.. so the flaw is shown that not hitting the target means that the "Zen" archer is just not disappointed by his lack of perfection.

[luftbubi]

There's a well known arguement in Zen: Bodhi is no tree,

nor is the mind a standing mirror bright.

Since all is originally empty,

where does the dust alight?

The arguement says a state of empty mind can't be acquire through constant training (like practicing the skill to hit the target), empty mind or so to say knowing the truth is a suddent enlightment (when inspiration come, that's the moment to hit, not because of any skill). This is the ture essence of ZEN.

[luftbubi]

So, it's not about to care or not to care, it's a way to meditate, the arrow and bow is just a form.

[LisaMarie216]

It's an incredible skill. I've been wanting to learn it though never been able to...yet. Will though sometime.

[fuxup21]

I may not know NOTHING about archery but at least I can see that this particular form of it is not about the skill level. Try to look past what it appears to be and maybe you'll understand.

[fuxup21]

you obviously weren't listening when you saw the video

[Agilegundog]

What a great video. It really brought back memories of my time in Japan studying this incredible art form. Kyudo is truly a world of its own; unifying spirit, body and bow.

[daijishin]

In order to understand budo/bujutsu, know its history, its culture, its language, its people... not just techniques and physical exercise. There is a reason why the word practice in budo is not the word for practice in Japanese which is 練習 (rensyuu), but 稽古 (keiko) which literally translates to "tracing the old"

Alright... this is too long for a reply...

Anyway, Robert.. great work... as usual...

[daijishin]

I wrote a lot of blog entry regarding budo (funkybuddha . multiply . c o m), and I would have to agree with Robert on a number of things, especially on Kyudo being spiritual rather than martial.

[fightjapanrc]

Thanks. I could not argue to vigorously because I am not up on the scholarship. But Kyudo clearly has Shinto influence and I suspect more importantly Buddhist. The concept of "no mind" and the "pointlessness" seem to be Buddhist. Herrigel claimed Zen, I don't know enough about the various types of Japanese Buddhism to add or detract from his statement.

[daijishin]

Well... I just read a monograph of Draeger's lecture. You are not wrong but neither is Herrigel... it is Zen Buddhism. Japanese Budo/Bujutsu is mostly influenced by Eisai's Rinzai sect. As for Shinto... well Shinto (神道), literally "the way of kami (divine/god?)" has been around longer than Buddhism in Japan, it is integrated into the Japanese culture. So in actuality Japan's culture is a mix of Buddhism and Shinto... as for warriorship there is Zen also...

[fightjapanrc]

Thanks for this info. It has certainly elevated the debate. Thanks

[daijishin]

The word 道 (do) means (spiritual) path... the main point of 武道 (budo) is self (spiritual) enlightenment rather than technical proficiecy or being martial. 武術 (bujutsu)however does require technical proficiency as you will need the skills to protect your clan. In my opinion budo exists alongside bujutsu; budo is not just a modernization or a spiritual type of bujutsu. One must first understand the concept of budo and bujutsu, and the historical concept of both.

[daijishin]

I recommend reading on Donn F. Draeger's books on this, especially his lectures back in 1978, very informative. To know budo and bujutsu, you will need to understand the history, the culture, and even the spirit of the people that practice it... this is what Draeger was working on, hoplology, a study of martial arts through history and culture. You may want to check out Draeger and Hoplology.

[fightjapanrc]

People have argued that Kyudo is a type of meditation- a way of cleansing the mind. A German scholar claimed Kyudo was connected to Zen, others disagree. A famous Japanese Kyudo sensei made statements that were very similar to Zen and has now moved to the US and is affiliated with Tibetan Buddhism.

[fightjapanrc]

The articles bags on Herrigel it does not really conduct any kind of symbolic analysis of Kyudo ideas or ritual or discuss their origins. He does however admit that that Kyudo has Zen influence. P.27 I am not so interested in his feeling about Herrigel. He was just grinding some tedious academic axe. Yes, Herrigel romanticized Japan. Yes, Herrigel was strongly influenced by Suzuki and was looking for Zen.

[Raphneckone]

Agreed. Still, the article probably gives you much more valuable and authentic information than Herrigel does.

[IronOgun]

Yes, what you say it true. Thanks for the lead. If you know of any articles that talk about Kyudo and its origins in more depth, some kind of historical symbolic analysis, please let me know. I am especially interested in the "no mind" stuff students kept talking about and the purposelessness of Kyudo. It kept reoccurring.

[Tooboolar]

Zen and kyudo have not much in common.

Blame Herrigel.

[fightjapanrc]

I would have to blame more than Herrigel. He's hardly the first or the last to talk about kyudo as a form of meditation designed to achieve "no mind". I am assuming the concept of "no mind" and the idea of eliminating separation are probably connected to Zen or some other related form of Bhuddhism.

[Raphneckone]

The spititual aspect was there before, but the zen-kyodo connection was made up by Herrigel (and indeed readily accepted by the Japanese). The guy didn´t know any Japanese and was in the country looking for zen. So it´s no wonder that he misunderstood one or the other thing...

[fightjapanrc]

Many Japanese aristocratic activities were influenced by Buddhism. Clearly concepts of "No Mind", the positive value of "hopelessness", eliminating self and ego, the inherent perfection that must be discovered after long and ardous effort (and some luck)and the process of eliminating obstacles in Kyudo are highly likely to come from Buddhism and probably Zen. I am not a scholar on the subject but it does not seem like that far a reach.

[fightjapanrc]

In Japan "spirituality" tends to come from either Shinto sources or Buddhist one's. This seems very much the latter (although Kyudo is used in Shinto rituals).

[Tooboolar]

I don't know why there's so much emphasis on "spirituality" in budo.

It seems to me these comments mostly come from those who do not practice these arts.

Kyudo needs concentration and self-discipline, but moreso a lot of training and plain muscle-work.

[Tooboolar]

Whenever I hear someone talking about Zen or spirituality in context with some budo art, my alarm bells go off.

Most of these people misunderstand real mastery with some kind of quasi-religion.

Meditating is still better than just sitting around doing nothing.

[Raphneckone]

If you wanna know more on the topic, I highly recommend Yamada Shoji´s article "The Myth of Zen in the Art of Archery". Go google for it.

[fightjapanrc]

Yamada argues Kyudo is considered a physical exercise. I kind of doubt people put on formal kimonos to do physical excercise. Kyudo is a form of ritual. A ritual I believe based on Buddhist and Shinto idea. This is why they have shrines in their dojo and say prayers to the shrine. this beyond the token rituals one sees commonly in Karate dojos.

[Raphneckone]

Nope. Yamada argues that the forerunner of kyudo, kyujutsu, was a physical exercise done for enjoyment. This, however, changed with Herrigel´s teacher, Awa.

Read the whole article ;-)

[Tooboolar]

I strongly oppose this view on kyudo, although many people seem to share your view.

I use a simple keikogi for 99% of my training and only put on a kimono for fun or show.

There's nothing ritualistic about it.

I don't care about Buddhism or Shintoism either and I do not see them in the simple act of archery either.

Remove all the mumbo-jumbo and what is left is just shooting an arrow.

And that's how it should be.

[fightjapanrc]

There is nothing ritualistic about Kyudo? Are you joking?!!! It is more ritualistic than Catholic High Mass in the Vatican. You not knowing about something hardly proves it doesn't exist. It is not mumbo jumbo. It is Japanese cosmological thought. Getting rid of the "mumbo jumbo" is like being Christian but ignoring the skinny guy on the cross!!!

[fightjapanrc]

If you so hate "mumbo jumbo" why don't you buy a regular bow and shoot it in your back yard at a tree stump wearing shorts and t-shirt. That would be truly just shooting an arrow....

[Tooboolar]

That's right, there is nothing ritualistic about kyudo.

It is about shooting an arrow with a bow.

Everything else is not necessary.

If you are implying that the movements are ritualistic then again you are wrong.

Every movement has a technical background, starting with the setting of the feet and ending with zanshin.

I've been shooting 10000s of arrows and have never encountered something cosmological.

It's concentration and self-discipline.

[fightjapanrc]

I assume you have never seen a shrine in a dojo or seen anyone pray to one? Is your school in Japan? Because I saw it regularly. The arrow has important ideas in both Shinto and Buddhism so I would to strongly disagree with your prosition. BTW ritual motions serve purposes and the Kyudo of Shibata sensei is now aligned with Tibetan Budhhism in America.

[Tooboolar]

It is true that Shintoism uses bow and arrow for some rituals of cleansing and so, but that has nothing to do with kyudo.

That's shinto.

Sumo wrestling uses a bow too, got nothing to do with kyudo either.

[fightjapanrc]

In the show above there was a very large shinto shrine occuplying one entire side of the room yet you claim there is no relationship to Kyudo and Shinto? Is your dojo in Japan? Secondly whether a branch of Kyudo has the bureaucratic seal of approval from ankf has little to do with its essence.

[Tooboolar]

Yes, some dojos have a shrine, others don't.

You don't need a shrine to shoot an arrow.

It has nothing to do with kyudo.

It is true that you do not necessarily need a Dan-graduation to be a good archer.

However, what I've seen so far from Zenko leads me to believe that it is a mixture of religious mumbo with a tiny bit of kyudo.

An often found pattern in the budo world.

Water down a budo art and mix it with some asian mysticism and sheep will find lots of sheepish followers, with money.

[IronOgun]

I am in Japan. The people following the "mumbo jumbo" are largely Asians. If you don't like Asian beliefs it seems you should invent your own martial art free of "mumbo jumbo" rather than disparaging Japanese ideas for your own interest. Come to Japan and spend a year or two hear and we shall see how effective you are at distilling "true Kyudo" from "mumbo jumbo". This distinction may be your personal experience only.

[Tooboolar]

I don't really get what you are trying to say.

The ANKF is not a religious group, they are teaching archery.

If some people follow their personal beliefs like Shinto or Buddhism, that's fine, but has nothing to with kyudo.

[Tooboolar]

The organisation of Shibata is not aligned with the All Nippon Kyudo Federation.

What they are doing is not accepted as official kyudo.

If a motion has a purpose it cannot be ritualistic, although it may have a meaning to someone.

That is not the case with kyudo, every movement has a special practical purpose.

[goraisan]

Very interesting!!

[NewEnglandBudo]

Very good!