vanda - Saying that God is the "Creator" of something is saying that you know one of his characteristics - something he does. He creates. That doesn't talk about what he IS. What IS a god?
Where do you get your information that most scientists believe that about the BBT? Just opinion?
Many atheists expect the revelation of God to be absolute in order for them to believe that He exists. This is not possible for two reasons 1) limits on our sensory perception and 2) an absolute revelation of God will directly disturb our free will. If, for example, God put a large angel in the sky and said I am God, this would directly disturb the free-will mechanism. Well known qualities such as love, compassion and the desire for peace serve to promote the plausibility behind theism.
Why does belief in God remove free will? Surely free will would be the choice to decide to worship or not, not to decide if a God exists. Just because I know he exists, I do not have to worship him. By that argument, is the only aspect in life that involves free will whether or not to believe in something without evidence? In other words, free will only concerns faith?
Squawkerd - If there's an all-powerful God in charge of the universe, free will is impossible. It just means that we can't decide things if God knows the future and controls everything. Now if you're talking about a god that isn't all-powerful and doesn't know the future, and the future isn't set, then freewill is possible. Worship doesn't change any of that. But there are other arguments against even that much freewill...which I won't get into.
I think you mistook my position, probably because I mistyped when I posted. I meant knowledge of God, not belief in God. Ie, why does knowing something remove free will. I am an atheist and I know the free will argument you propose, I am contemplating making a video on that subject. Specifically, if everything in the universe is natural, then each state is dependent on the last, meaning we can't change the course of events as nature dictates successive states.
I don't know where you got that one from I never said that at all.
"Just because I know he exists, I do not have to worship him"
Worship is a condition not an act. The condition of worship is gained through the acceptance of God into one's life. For me, the condition of worship is often an incredible sense of peace.
"In other words, free will only concerns faith?"
A red herring! Free will exists whether you have faith or not.
Evidently you did not read the correction I posted. I meant to write evidence, somehow I typed belief. The sentence should have read "Why does evidence of God remove free will?" Basically, how would knowing about God remove my free will to follow him.
You actually made my argument for me
"Free will exists whether you have faith or not." Free will also exists whether you have knowledge or not. The first post was a mistake, not what I meant to write.
"an absolute revelation of God will directly disturb our free will"
well we thought that was what you meant when you typed it.
"Worship is a condition not an act."
and the act would be accepting (heck they come from the same ROOT!).
here is a hint, when you find yourself playing linguistic games like this, it's a sure sign that you have 'fuzzy' thinking in your ideas about a concept.
vanda - What is a "God"? What created it? If the first rule is that everything had to have a creator, then so did the creator. "Scientific concensus" is just a term that means some peoples' opinions. It's still all theoretical, but the Big Bang is just the bang, not what happened before it. That's a separate theory.
heck I _LOVE_ this post. _if_ the first rule it...
this is a great statement. in one sentence you point out the flaw in there argument AND you point out the flaw even in there preamble to the argument.
we KNOW not everything has to have a cause. look up quantum mechanics with quantum fluctuation, cassimir effect, particle decay etc. all effects without causes. love it.
do theists REALLY not understand science this much aajoeyjo? i know some are confused but do they honestly not get it?
vanda3138 - Without a clear definition of "God," your theory is flimsy at best. I don't think the Big Bang is meant to be a theory about the beginning of the existence of the universe, but rather an explanation of why it's expanding now. Before that, there had to be something, apparently. So what made "God?"
doesn't have to be something before. we would like to think that because our brains demand a pattern but hey the universe IS. not necessarily in the way we think it should be (quantum mechanics and relativity alone where the shockers that showed that one) but it simply is.
Blood drives, etc are exactly what atheist groups need to support to ensure that humanist values, when endorsed by theists, get credited to humanism, where credit for it belongs. After all, every theist spends time every day using humanist principles; they need to be aware of this.
Here, here. It's so infuriating when theists attribute their noble actions to God. It's simply compassion and reciprocity. Nothing more. If God were never dreamed up, you'd be acting on such values anyways, so it's meaningless to give God credit. The issue of whether or not a wizard exists behind the curtain has minimal impact on our shared values. Think about it. Why should it?
Yes, and when a person helps another because he cares, that is noble.
When a theist helps another to curry favour with his god, or to attempt to convert the person helped, that is pathetic. Yet theists have the gall to say that they are being philanthropic when they are actually being selfish!
LOL! Thanks! I hope all is well with you young chap!
debauchery73 3 years ago
I agree ol chap!
debauchery73 3 years ago
vanda - Saying that God is the "Creator" of something is saying that you know one of his characteristics - something he does. He creates. That doesn't talk about what he IS. What IS a god?
Where do you get your information that most scientists believe that about the BBT? Just opinion?
aajoeyjo 3 years ago
Many atheists expect the revelation of God to be absolute in order for them to believe that He exists. This is not possible for two reasons 1) limits on our sensory perception and 2) an absolute revelation of God will directly disturb our free will. If, for example, God put a large angel in the sky and said I am God, this would directly disturb the free-will mechanism. Well known qualities such as love, compassion and the desire for peace serve to promote the plausibility behind theism.
vanda3138 3 years ago
vanda - So what IS a god? Where did you hear about the BBT?
aajoeyjo 3 years ago
Why does belief in God remove free will? Surely free will would be the choice to decide to worship or not, not to decide if a God exists. Just because I know he exists, I do not have to worship him. By that argument, is the only aspect in life that involves free will whether or not to believe in something without evidence? In other words, free will only concerns faith?
Squawkerd 3 years ago
Squawkerd - If there's an all-powerful God in charge of the universe, free will is impossible. It just means that we can't decide things if God knows the future and controls everything. Now if you're talking about a god that isn't all-powerful and doesn't know the future, and the future isn't set, then freewill is possible. Worship doesn't change any of that. But there are other arguments against even that much freewill...which I won't get into.
aajoeyjo 3 years ago
I think you mistook my position, probably because I mistyped when I posted. I meant knowledge of God, not belief in God. Ie, why does knowing something remove free will. I am an atheist and I know the free will argument you propose, I am contemplating making a video on that subject. Specifically, if everything in the universe is natural, then each state is dependent on the last, meaning we can't change the course of events as nature dictates successive states.
Squawkerd 3 years ago
"Why does belief in God remove free will?"
I don't know where you got that one from I never said that at all.
"Just because I know he exists, I do not have to worship him"
Worship is a condition not an act. The condition of worship is gained through the acceptance of God into one's life. For me, the condition of worship is often an incredible sense of peace.
"In other words, free will only concerns faith?"
A red herring! Free will exists whether you have faith or not.
vanda3138 3 years ago
Evidently you did not read the correction I posted. I meant to write evidence, somehow I typed belief. The sentence should have read "Why does evidence of God remove free will?" Basically, how would knowing about God remove my free will to follow him.
You actually made my argument for me
"Free will exists whether you have faith or not." Free will also exists whether you have knowledge or not. The first post was a mistake, not what I meant to write.
Squawkerd 3 years ago
"an absolute revelation of God will directly disturb our free will"
well we thought that was what you meant when you typed it.
"Worship is a condition not an act."
and the act would be accepting (heck they come from the same ROOT!).
here is a hint, when you find yourself playing linguistic games like this, it's a sure sign that you have 'fuzzy' thinking in your ideas about a concept.
addmoreice 3 years ago
vanda - What is a "God"? What created it? If the first rule is that everything had to have a creator, then so did the creator. "Scientific concensus" is just a term that means some peoples' opinions. It's still all theoretical, but the Big Bang is just the bang, not what happened before it. That's a separate theory.
aajoeyjo 3 years ago
heck I _LOVE_ this post. _if_ the first rule it...
this is a great statement. in one sentence you point out the flaw in there argument AND you point out the flaw even in there preamble to the argument.
we KNOW not everything has to have a cause. look up quantum mechanics with quantum fluctuation, cassimir effect, particle decay etc. all effects without causes. love it.
do theists REALLY not understand science this much aajoeyjo? i know some are confused but do they honestly not get it?
addmoreice 3 years ago
vanda3138 - Without a clear definition of "God," your theory is flimsy at best. I don't think the Big Bang is meant to be a theory about the beginning of the existence of the universe, but rather an explanation of why it's expanding now. Before that, there had to be something, apparently. So what made "God?"
aajoeyjo 3 years ago
doesn't have to be something before. we would like to think that because our brains demand a pattern but hey the universe IS. not necessarily in the way we think it should be (quantum mechanics and relativity alone where the shockers that showed that one) but it simply is.
addmoreice 3 years ago
It actually made me angry inside thinking of Christians harrassing a pregnant teenager...
valthintaur 3 years ago 6
read deuteronomy 22:13-21 it tells christians to kill girls who lose their virginity before marriage
12outland12 3 years ago
Blood drives, etc are exactly what atheist groups need to support to ensure that humanist values, when endorsed by theists, get credited to humanism, where credit for it belongs. After all, every theist spends time every day using humanist principles; they need to be aware of this.
seathanaich 3 years ago 3
Here, here. It's so infuriating when theists attribute their noble actions to God. It's simply compassion and reciprocity. Nothing more. If God were never dreamed up, you'd be acting on such values anyways, so it's meaningless to give God credit. The issue of whether or not a wizard exists behind the curtain has minimal impact on our shared values. Think about it. Why should it?
MicheasTheMighty 3 years ago
Hey Micheas.
Yes, and when a person helps another because he cares, that is noble.
When a theist helps another to curry favour with his god, or to attempt to convert the person helped, that is pathetic. Yet theists have the gall to say that they are being philanthropic when they are actually being selfish!
seathanaich 3 years ago
Exactly. If you're going to have moral values, have them for their own sake and the sake of your fellow men. Anything less is phony and vacuous.
MicheasTheMighty 3 years ago
Yes i cringed when he said muslim kid, jewish kid, jehovah's witness
SlaughterAnimal 3 years ago