Penn. you're not an idiot. when this video was made, I would have agreed that Obama was a religious man. Over the past couple years though, it has been clear that Obama is an agnostic/atheist.
I hate to see people tear you down out of sheer ignorance.
Republicans accuse Obama for not being religious. Case closed. Penn is an idiot. Palin is a religious nut. Obama is not. End of story. Again, Penn is an idiot.
Penn brings a sledge hammer to a knife fight. I haven't read any of Sam Harris' books yet, but it's abundantly clear to me he does not 'believe in' or 'follow' Buddhism in any sense. Harris argues that religious experiences are something we should study instead of dismissing as nonsense. This doesn't mean he believes in the supernatural, indeed, he suggests there are naturalistic explanations for the reported religious experiences. He also practices meditation. Doesn't make him a Buddhist.
There isn't any big problem with being religious and in office. There is when you begin to bring those religious convictions to policy making and governance. Also, Obama has described his religious upbringing in his books written before he ran for president and has been openly supportive of science in talks and in policy..
Yes, one has to say that he believes in god In order to get elected, certainly to the presidency and probably to most public offices. So yes, I'm guessing that someone as intelligent as Obama is lying about his faith or at least the extent of it. If he didn't tell that lie, he couldn't get elected. And I'll take a fake Christian over a real one any day. At least he's dealing with reality.
The difference is massive: former half-term governor Palin associates with African witch hunters (literally) and President Obama does not... pretty simple. Palin doesn't understand evolution is a fact, Obama does... the difference it in the details. Obama supports more ethical, more scientific policies than Palin, etc.
Weird Buddhism thing? Harris is as atheistic as they come. Eastern traditions like Buddhism certainly have plenty to offer to secular philosophy. If you think he is too religious as a Buddhist, read his article 'Killing the Buddha' he certainly doesn't call himself a Buddhist. Also, he regularly criticizes Obama; "...we even have a 'liberal' president who is ostensibly against gay marriage because his faith tells him it's an abomination, it's completely insane"
He has also criticised the bible in one of his speeches and he doesn't plan on introducing creationism into schools which sarah palin would certainly have no problem doing even if he is religious he still has some rationality and logic which is totaly lost on palin who would you rather be president of the US in 2012 Mike Huckabee, Ron paul, Donal trump, Sarah palin or OBAMA? I can understand some of you're criticism but I think you need to take a step back and review the situation
ooh come on Penn yes Obama has made mistakes he's not perfect but the difference is that Obama is a lot smarter and less religious than sarah palin the woman who said that she could see russia out of her house. Even if obama is a liar you know very well that he would not have been president if he claimed he was an atheist he already had enough troubling getting voted in because he was black, not a republican or a religious nutjob that didn't believed in evolution (continued)
You don't know me, but I'm a fan.... and I'd like to stay one, although your rationale about this whole thing is twisted. For pragmatic reasons, Obama has to stay in the closet. He is to sane a man to believe in the words of the bible or any other ancient text. It is almost an oxymoron to put Obama and Palin in the same sentence, let alone placing them on the same line on the meter of religiosity.
Sam's arguments aren't honest attempts to find the truth, but only rationalizations for predetermined ends.
Obama followed a marxist racist religious whack job for years and gets a pass, because he is a liberal and Sam is a liberal.
Sam's latest book has the same kind of predetermined outcome - he is concerned that atheists lack the fervor of religious believers in objective morality, therefore he gins up an argument for a secular objective morality, unconcerned about reason or rigor.
Buddhism is not theistic at all---it is a philosophy (a very flawed one). The book is absolutely worth reading.
That said, I think you could argue that Obama's take on religion is worse. For while Palin thinks it is true, Obama sees it as a valuable tool for manipulating people political. At the heart of the "social gospel" is the idea that it is okay to use religion cynically as a tool to manipulate people into doing what you want politically. That is more dangerous than fundamentalism.
@Hypatia1951 yeah, but even Buddhism has it extremists. They, who supported the Japanese empire during WWII. They, who instructed the suicide pilots (Kamikaze). I do not condemn all Buddhists, but even Buddhism has its sorts of pseudo-saints. They are so many Buddhist "denominations", and many of them seem to be theistic. Some of the denominations can be considered as religious (since they are also mixed with local religions, i.e. animism, ancestor worship).
The sad truth is: To be elected in high office in the US, you have to be a believer. Obama knew this, Palin knew this, and Sam Harris knows this. So, for the time being, the relevant variable then becomes will the candidate let their faith compromise their judgement. What Penn doesn't seem to be seeing here is that Obama has demonstrated a faculty for intellect and even wrote in his book: "Reason over passion, temperance over both."
Sarah Palin doesn't even know the definition of temperance.
I think the reason Palin and Obama said it and Biden and McCain didn't is because Obama and Palin are newcomers and therefore they have to prove their religious to the public. I honestly think that known politicians like Biden and McCain are assumed to be religious. Besides that though, the fact alone that Obama acknowledges non-belief as an equal belief status and I couldn't imagine Palin doing it says a lot I think. Obama's positions and actions show a very minimal amount of belief.
Fishbein and many others have shown that people will not cop to things they know will put them in a bad light. Most of the self-report measures used by researchers to estimate the number of atheists in America are B.S. because of this fact. A recent PEW survey shows that even Christian Fundies would elect a gay person to office before they would an atheist. So the best we can hope for at this point is for politicians to give those of us who know what to look for a sign. Obama has done that.
The problem is that for any politician to be elected dog-catcher he has to profess a Christian religion. This despite the fact that the Constitution expressly forbids any religious test for public office. Obama's speech on religion, easily found here on YouTube, strongly suggests that he may well be an atheist in his heart of hearts, whereas Palin's comments give no such impression.
Oh the Jainism style, it has everyone as reborn after death as a God. It's like equal distribution of God-like power, it's like Communism is on the other side, Hell only.
The only real scientist (rather than a Zoologist and an Agitator like Hitchens), M.Dr. Sam Harris is a Neurologist. Yeah there is a God in Buddhism, some don't think so but the Book of the Dead and so on has a whole Jacobs ladder and sins labeled regrets. So it is not non or atheological.
@ConradoThePirate Actually, that's not correct. Vajrayana does not have a deity in any real sense. The "deity" is really only an analogy. Vajrayana Buddhists meditate on the nature of Buddha himself, but not to worship him as a deity, but instead to understand that there is no difference between yourself and the Buddha... in other words, there is nothing any more or less important than yourself (or anything or anyone else)... which is the opposite of worshiping a "deity" in the "God" sense.
Holy shit, dude, Penn, I love you to death man, but Sam Harris, whew! That is so freakin' cool!! If I got into an argument with Harris I'd probably shit a brick. That guy is so unbelievably smart.
The fact that Penn and Sam disagree on certain things should not be a problem for secularists or people who believe in reason. A world of reasoning people will be a world of argument. Sam and Penn agree on the most important things, and I respect them both: Penn is a great showman and communicator, and though he obviously has a big ego, he puts in an effort to stay humble. Religion's power is the ability to put people in lock step. Leading atheists is like herding cats.
Perhaps you should see his debates and read the end of faith, Penn. It might dilute your disagreement with Harris on this a bit (albeit, not all of it). You still have point, but i dont think your differences are as stark as you think they are
Look at the body of evidence, the collected media, that shows both McCain and Sarah Palin and Obama/Biden at worship. What does their historical behavior show? It is one thing to say that you are religious to get elected. It is a ruse. Politicians lie. It is quite another to deny evolution brazenly and publicly. Full disclaimer: I'm a left wing elitist nut. I voted for Obama because there wasn't anyone further to the left to vote for.
Given the choice between McCain and Obama and their VP choices? How is McCain even a valid choice? I really really hate to say that you're disconnected from reality on something like this but it just seems that you aren't really aware of how fundamentally biased toward religion the American people are. Do you not see the constant attacks on atheism and secularism by the religious right?
Penn, in as much as I have read the bright Sam Harris and, yes, I subscribe to his outlook on religion and the damage that it does to personal liberty -- I will tell you that your observations with respect to Buddhism are spot on. To me, all religions share a common core of similarity -- they claim "truth" with no "proof". And as to Palin -- the English language should coin the word Palinism to mean buffoonery and/or jackass insanity, take your pick. Stick by your guns, Penn.
Obama's so called faith that compels him to believe that LGBT deserve less than equal rights. Ironic that a man who studied in great depth the turmoils and tribulations his people, African Americans, faced at the hands of the religious ideals that lead to apartheid and segregation; now uses that same angle of religion to perpetuate the same type of apartheid and legal segregation against LGBT. Funny that the sect of Christianity Obama is a part of supports marriage equality, while he does not.
The Buddha was a comedian, like you, & a juggler (not quite like you). Unlike those politicians you mention, he never said he believed in God, & he certainly didn't counsel getting guidance from any god, in fact he made fun of the biggest guy of the day, Brahma. If people had to pass on your insightful humor by word of mouth for 2,500 years, would everyone still get the jokes? Don't sell Buddhism short; blow off the dust you find the Buddha was as clear-thinking as you are.
Hi Penn fans. Penn Says videos have been discontinued, so you won't be seeing any new content on here. You can check out our Profile on our Channel Page for more info. We'll still be checking in, so hope to keep chatting with you all! Thanks!
if you actually watch obama speak on religious issues, he clearly comes across as an atheist despite what his 'official' religious status may be. his christianity is as much a marketing strategy as his church pastor-type speaking style
Yep, that does sound like a double standard. Love the BS series BTW.
He does talk about the stigma of (non)religion as it relates to political success in at least one of the clips I have seen, but I haven't seen the Sarah Palin clip. I think she may have been singled out just based on her unlikable personality.
The other problem would be, if you rebuke all candidates running, who then do you, or anyone you influence vote for?
Sam Harris is a shyster, much in the likeness of Bernie Madoff. Sam runs a 'spiritual ponzi scheme'. He is a man of ignorance, aggressions, and despair.
It can be said Obama can't come out on his doubts regarding religion because the country (USA) is extremely religious. It is simply not a good move politically, it doesn't mean Obama is a liar and shouldn't be trusted...
Yea, seriously. Considering that you can use the word "and" in the wrong context in the US political system (being facetious), but saying you have doubts about religion is political suicide...unfortunately.
when he says anti theist, he means in it the Chris Hitchens sense. He not only thinks there is no god, but thinks that if it were true, it would not be desirable.
Penn. Come on brother. Don't dangle off these so-called atheist "leaders'" nutsacks. They are people with opinions, just like you. They're not privy to any information that isn't available to you. It's cool if you dig them as people, but for God's sake (pun intended) don't put them on a pedestal. We've been down that route before, and it didn't work out too well.
@hybridamerica Trust you? I don't like Palin either but I really honestly don't think it matters who the president is anymore. Wall Street and the Banks own the president. Lobbyist and special interest deliver the message with cold hard cash in the senate and house...the whole left vs. right thing really really needs to be destroyed in the hearts and minds of all of us. it's just over, they're just puppets being held up by a puppet master.
yup, its great that he is willing to lie about a fundamental belief of his, just to get elected. So good to know, that he cares so much more about power, than being honest
That makes me trust Democrats more than Republicans
You may not have had a real point of view but you made good points. You can't compromise your beliefs or cherrypick what you want to standby and then go about doing something that is against what you say you believe. I mean, 320 years in that church? If he lied about being a christian for political reasons for 20 years does that mean his life, for at least 20 years was a prepared lie to run for president?
The point is Obama doesn't stress the religious thing. He mentioned "non believers" in his Inaugural Address. Better a fake religious person, or a less religious person, than a religious nutjob.
@TheWiseCommenter this is true however, i don't think any of these leaders we've seen lately were very religious, honest, or worth a damn either way. Not when they're all cut from the same cloth and told what to do by wall street and the banks that paid for their campaigns to get into office. just my 2
Liberals said similar things about Bill Clinton, that he's not really a conservative Christian who believes in the death penalty and an agressive war on drugs with mass incarceration, he just says he does to get elected. But he took all those issues further in actions than the ones who actually believe in them.
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obviously u get emails from those guys not caus they like you, but becasue they are using you. they dont like u, believe me...ur just and end to their means..which is to continue establishing this religion as legimate, &to get as many followers as possibleto contribute to the religions goals, & doctrines.
POPE = dawkins
Archbishop = Harris
These guys rlike the benny hinn of the religion of atheism, dont give a shit about thosewho read their awful books, just about how much money they made
@ infinitemika - What are you talking about? Are you saying that Dawkins and Harris have some devious plans for world domination by cult? Atheism is not a religion, nor does it act as one. Better equip yourself before you set such a claim, Mr. "Atheists_nightmare"
In Obama's book, he talks in depth about his religious journey. He's perhaps the most honest of all the mentioned politicians. It's sad that our society punishes politicians if they aren't overly religious. I think there is one member of the house who is atheist when our populations is composed of 10-15% atheists. Talk about a representative government.
I think when you look at Obama and you look and Palin you can tell that Obama will actually listen to real people when making decisions while Sarah Palin seems to channel her God through everything she does. She explicitly states many times that she thinks the Christian God is guiding her in her actions while Obama seems to just pay lip service so the religious zealots don't get on his ass so much. Plus just saying you're atheist/agnostic is political suicide. I actually think Obama is agnostic.
Republicans say that they are for small government but that is comical at best. Many of our asanine laws are routinely defended by the rightwing and were started by the religous movement. The amount of tax money spent on the war on drugs, prostitution, gambling, terrorism is ridiculous. Also, usually its a republican who advocates having the ten commandments display at court houses, prayer at public schools (e.t.c). American gov should be secular. Sorry Penn, republicans are for big gov.
Harris is brilliant, and I agree with him the majority of the time, but you nailed it on this one, as did I, (but he didn't return my email). You're exactly right, everything he nailed Palin on, Obama is guilty of too, explicitly, plus Obama is a radical progressive and our liberties are now at serious risk IMO.
That's fucking stupid. Obama is as centrist as you can get. If he was progressive, he wouldn't be bending over backwards to maintain our privately controlled health care (and yes he is doing that despite retards accusing him of "socialism"), he wouldn't be against legalizing marijuana, he wouldn't be against gay equality...
Sorry but most people who identify themselves as "libertarians" demonstrate to me that they have a very loose grasp on reality.
Amen Penn, People should say what they mean come hell or High water, Enough Playing Tennis when it comes to the Presidency. And this message is from myself a absolute Fundamental 6000 year old earth creationist able to scientifically defend my faith after the order of Isaac Newton. Preach!!!!
well darn I must be one of those my friend...Though I do know evidence for both sides pretty much all of it...we can debate but dont call me a fing idiot I am actually very smart and I would like an actual discussion as to how the world is not 6 thousand yrs old and i will defend my case the 6000 yr old what u will call retard theory
@kossmikham Oh really? Are you talking about Stalin, Mao, Pot, etc? You're right. It's always the Christians who are killing millions of people. Atheists have a terrific track record. I'm just sick of hearing on the news about devout Christians going around and murdering innocent people. Damn those missionaries in Burma and Africa who are helping the poverty stricken with clothes, food, and shelter. We just need to get rid of them. Let's send them to Siberia.
@ebeatworld Perhaps disturbed people are just crazy regardless if they are religious or not. The problem is that we can call people like Stalin evil but the christian can always hide behind god. We just need to look past all of it and say, "Hey, look at those fucking crazy people"
Sam Harris has lost me. I've been skeptical of his leanings for awhile now... I'll stick with Hitchens. Harris is a dualist and only practices Pragmatism when it suits his political interest. Warranted assertion is not selfishness, as many see Pragmatism. Harris is a not a religious nut, rather a spiritualist nut. He attracts what I call "educated new-age leftist atheists". That is all.
You know, Penn, you and I are on the same page on just about everything. Everything except your obsession with atheism. Atheism, if you haven't noticed, is becoming a pseudo-religion with all the scary trappings of fundamentalism. No longer does it mean one is irreligious. If you're so hip to the Bill of Rights, why deny the indispensable portion of "freedom of religion?" Thanks. BTW, I'm non-religious. So don't go getting any crazy notions that I'm rooting for my own team. It's about freedom.
hey Penn, I think it's about the level of "conviction" towards their belief. Obama (not my pick of the week either) doesn't belong to a cult that "speaks in tongues", so the ideology of HIS belief system is more mainstream, therefore less "threatening" to mainstream America. Yes, he's a sinner if he allows 1 soldier to die in war. He isn't after perfection as much as Palin. We fear Palin because we doubt she will justify her sins as casually as Obama. RELIGION sucks. We know it & they know it.
I don't always agree with Penn, but I respect that he thinks these things through and is very honest with his answers. He is also a pretty smart dude, IMO
I didn't so much care that Palin was religious, but she is a whack job. Obama's preacher may have been a whackjob, but so far Obama hasn't shown that he is.
Don't sell yourself short Penn. Just because Harris is smart, and there's no doubt he is, doesn't mean he can't be wrong. I am actually surprised how intellectually dishonest Harris was in this discussion on Palin and Obama. Your view is much more genuine.
Obama's pastor is a whack job - no arguments there. However, Obama himself religious? Highly HIGHLY unlikely. I'm 100% convinced is an atheist. No openly atheistic candidate in this country can dream to stand a chance at the oval office, so of course he has to say he's a Christian.
The proof is in the policy and action. Not saying we can pin this on either of them with certainty, but it rings true for me.
But I have to agree with you that this all feels like we're "rooting for" someone for essentially lying to the majority of the population. It doesn't feel right. But the question is always the disappointing "which is the lesser evil?". And that's just sad.
Everybody says theyre religious, few really allow it to affect their decision making...especially politicians. Penn, everyone knows who you are, no one knows who the fuck Sam Harris is.
Sam Harris is a pretty smart guy. I enjoy both of your styles when it comes to religion, but when arguing politics in any sense, someone will always get butt hurt haha.
Penn. Have you read Sam's books yet? He explains exactly what he means by spirituality. And just curious, if you wanted to learn how to meditate, wouldn't the best person to teach you be a Buddhist monk perhaps? That doesn't mean there is any truth to Buddhism, but they've discovered one or two things about the brain that might be interesting. It doesn't mean reincarnation is true. Even atheists can cherrypick.
I'd recommend Harris's book. All he says about Buddhism is that there are parts that can be extracted from the religion, and that the religion itself is unnecessary.
The same can be said for most any religion. He's a 'spiritual atheist', which I do not understand. I just think the 'atheist' part is bad enough, being a major inference and all, but 'spiritual atheist'? That's confusing.
The crux is belief. Whether you believe or disbelieve, the issue at hand is humankind's ability to understand, distill and sanctify truth. I don't know of any fundamentalist who believes the sun rotates around the earth nor that the earth is flat. Fact memes will eventually resolve the majority of our belief conflicts...give it time.
About Obama being religious: Tell me this: Could Obama POSSIBLY get elected without claiming a Christian faith? I doubt it; so Obama HAS to say he is Christian, so screw his stupid pastor!
Have you ever sat with a religious family at say dinner? You can REALLY TELL if they are religious in many ways. They may say grace over their food. When they say "God help us," or "praise the Lord," you can TELL they MEAN IT LITERALLY. Some people say these things CASUALLY, like a figure of speech.
So we are smart enough to discern SOMEWHAT how religious, or how LITERAL their religious beliefs are.
I get the sense that since Obama seems to be VERY INTELLIGENT, and that he is RELATED TO MUSLIMS (at least his father or step-father), and was partially RAISED OR TRAINED in Muslim faith, that Obama has a tolerant view of ALL RELIGIONS; and he is smart enough to see that whether you are Muslim, Christian, Buddhist..., that we are all just normal people.
Now in contrast, examine politicians that praise God when speaking of how good our country is; or claim God or Jesus as a source of direction for their policies; Bush even claims that God's view is part of his FOREIGN POLICY!!!
Now that is scary. But is also evidence that someone is a TRUE BELIEVER, not just CLAIMING FAITH for ELECTION PURPOSES! You be the judge, use your good judgment of whether Obama is religious; we are smart people; look past the news, critics, and celebs!
the thing with Obama is that he would be the first to happily allow scientific research to trump religious biggetry when it comes to policy decisions, stem cell research etc. So in terms of policies Obama is not so religious... compared to Palin.. I think that's clear. Penn and Sam are both right. I love how when smart people debate they are both right. So refreshing, something to take from both. A+
I just see Obama talking about religion and I hear a difference in his voice like "ok I gotta play this game for a minute"..... I dunno...and he is more "accepting" of secularism or Non-believers..... While McCain/Palin are unapologetic about their views on God and they act 100% correct on them.
penn is right on this one, harris should know that he is just assuming that obama isn't religious, even though it is clear he is. Still waiting for the change Mr. president.
So why does it mean automatically he's not so much religious and just playing the part for the voters...instead of what is probably more likely which is hes afraid to admit he does truly believe, because he wouldnt have gotten the liberal support that won him the election..Im not an obama supporter in the least..and am as athiest as the next unbeliever..but it frustrates me that Sam Harris is so infatuated with having govt control us he cant even admit he supports a believer
I think people are forgetting the fact that Obama was a member of that church for almost 25 years..so to say he's just pretending to be religious to be president would show foresight second only to nostradamus
Obama, Biden are much less religious than McCain, and McCain is much less religious than Bush. And Bush is much less religious than Palin. Penn, buddy, we can tell this by their written works (in Obama's Case at least) and by their public statements taken IN context. Obama appears much more rational and less religious than Palin.
There are acutally people on here saying the same crap. "Obama is most likely lying. I doubt he truly believes that nonsense."
So you all have secret deals with Obama too? Come on. I know people tend to project their own values, hopes, and dreams on politicians, but it's getting pathetic.
Either he's a believer (vomit) or he's a liar to placate those backwater rubes (yuck).
I don't want either one of those people running anything, and you shouldn't either.
Yes, Obama is most likely lying. The guy reasoned early on, correctly, unfortunately, that he could never obtain high national office in the US unless he professed belief in God. I doubt he truly believes that nonsense either.
I think that Sam understands that change happens gradually. Obama does and says what he has to, so he can make those changes. Think of it as flying under the radar of a government that has become far too religious for our own good.
No, I wish it didn't exist. However, its a step in the right direction. Obama made a bold move acknowledging non-believers as citizens in a government that, since Reagan, has been dominated by Christian agendas. In that arena you have to tread lightly or you risk being cast out. Which on principle might seem fine but its more effective to change something from the inside.
Penn the beauty of this is that both of you are right from a certain point of view. And the only way you'll ever know is if they were honest and did not feel the weight of religion as an issue for them to be elected.
But Sam kinda steps on his own toes with that one because if its true and Obama really is just putting on a show then all that he is doing is giving legitimacy to the religious rather than marginalizing them.... So there is a little bit of conflict in his argument when comparing it to his well known admonishment of religious moderates. So as a mediator I'd call it a draw‽
I love Sam Harris! I think there is a big difference between what Obama says and Palin though.. the rhetoric tone and policy paths would be the biggest differences. I do have a big problem though with Sam's claim or argument about Obama.. I understand on one hand that if he isn't religious he'd definitely have to pretend in order to get elected.
Obama doesn't believe in anything. He goes to church to get elected. You can't run for president and be an atheist...not yet. He is too smart to believe in Jesus or any bullshit religion.
God forbid Sam Harris disagrees with you about Buddhism, you seem quite devout in your atheism there, buddy.
blakeesmith84 1 week ago
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apparently if you read Obamas book before he became president, you get a real sense of his religious doubts. i havent read it ive just heard.
zerr0ww 2 weeks ago
Penn. you're not an idiot. when this video was made, I would have agreed that Obama was a religious man. Over the past couple years though, it has been clear that Obama is an agnostic/atheist.
I hate to see people tear you down out of sheer ignorance.
MrTheBest247 1 month ago
Hey, Penn, you idiot, have you not seen the video where Obama publicly puts down religion? Do your research before you make a fool of yourself.
peteagassi 2 months ago
Republicans accuse Obama for not being religious. Case closed. Penn is an idiot. Palin is a religious nut. Obama is not. End of story. Again, Penn is an idiot.
peteagassi 2 months ago
Penn brings a sledge hammer to a knife fight. I haven't read any of Sam Harris' books yet, but it's abundantly clear to me he does not 'believe in' or 'follow' Buddhism in any sense. Harris argues that religious experiences are something we should study instead of dismissing as nonsense. This doesn't mean he believes in the supernatural, indeed, he suggests there are naturalistic explanations for the reported religious experiences. He also practices meditation. Doesn't make him a Buddhist.
jakebowkett01 4 months ago 3
There isn't any big problem with being religious and in office. There is when you begin to bring those religious convictions to policy making and governance. Also, Obama has described his religious upbringing in his books written before he ran for president and has been openly supportive of science in talks and in policy..
HSAdestroy 5 months ago
Yes, one has to say that he believes in god In order to get elected, certainly to the presidency and probably to most public offices. So yes, I'm guessing that someone as intelligent as Obama is lying about his faith or at least the extent of it. If he didn't tell that lie, he couldn't get elected. And I'll take a fake Christian over a real one any day. At least he's dealing with reality.
beautyinbreakdowns2 5 months ago
Penn you are so right!
12september1683 7 months ago
The difference is massive: former half-term governor Palin associates with African witch hunters (literally) and President Obama does not... pretty simple. Palin doesn't understand evolution is a fact, Obama does... the difference it in the details. Obama supports more ethical, more scientific policies than Palin, etc.
tobynsaunders 8 months ago
Weird Buddhism thing? Harris is as atheistic as they come. Eastern traditions like Buddhism certainly have plenty to offer to secular philosophy. If you think he is too religious as a Buddhist, read his article 'Killing the Buddha' he certainly doesn't call himself a Buddhist. Also, he regularly criticizes Obama; "...we even have a 'liberal' president who is ostensibly against gay marriage because his faith tells him it's an abomination, it's completely insane"
rt36crazyfists 8 months ago
He has also criticised the bible in one of his speeches and he doesn't plan on introducing creationism into schools which sarah palin would certainly have no problem doing even if he is religious he still has some rationality and logic which is totaly lost on palin who would you rather be president of the US in 2012 Mike Huckabee, Ron paul, Donal trump, Sarah palin or OBAMA? I can understand some of you're criticism but I think you need to take a step back and review the situation
TheXman300 9 months ago
ooh come on Penn yes Obama has made mistakes he's not perfect but the difference is that Obama is a lot smarter and less religious than sarah palin the woman who said that she could see russia out of her house. Even if obama is a liar you know very well that he would not have been president if he claimed he was an atheist he already had enough troubling getting voted in because he was black, not a republican or a religious nutjob that didn't believed in evolution (continued)
TheXman300 9 months ago
@TheXman300 i realize that this comment is old, but she didn't say that she could see russia from her house.
tiberiius 2 months ago
If Sam Harris actually likes/liked Obama, then I would argue that he is clearly NOT smarter than you :)
magichandpuppet 10 months ago
Penn,
You don't know me, but I'm a fan.... and I'd like to stay one, although your rationale about this whole thing is twisted. For pragmatic reasons, Obama has to stay in the closet. He is to sane a man to believe in the words of the bible or any other ancient text. It is almost an oxymoron to put Obama and Palin in the same sentence, let alone placing them on the same line on the meter of religiosity.
cloudincloudout 11 months ago
@cloudincloudout well said my friend
TheXman300 9 months ago
Sam's arguments aren't honest attempts to find the truth, but only rationalizations for predetermined ends.
Obama followed a marxist racist religious whack job for years and gets a pass, because he is a liberal and Sam is a liberal.
Sam's latest book has the same kind of predetermined outcome - he is concerned that atheists lack the fervor of religious believers in objective morality, therefore he gins up an argument for a secular objective morality, unconcerned about reason or rigor.
buybuydandavis 1 year ago
The answer Penn's looking for is that Palin is a creationist and wants creationism taught in science class, whilst Obama doesn't.
Darkdude929 1 year ago
Buddhism is not theistic at all---it is a philosophy (a very flawed one). The book is absolutely worth reading.
That said, I think you could argue that Obama's take on religion is worse. For while Palin thinks it is true, Obama sees it as a valuable tool for manipulating people political. At the heart of the "social gospel" is the idea that it is okay to use religion cynically as a tool to manipulate people into doing what you want politically. That is more dangerous than fundamentalism.
Hypatia1951 1 year ago
@Hypatia1951 why do you feel that the philosophy of Buddhism is flawed?
instereovideos 11 months ago
Buddhism is not theistic at all---it is a philosophy. The book is absolutely worth reading.
Hypatia1951 1 year ago
@Hypatia1951 yeah, but even Buddhism has it extremists. They, who supported the Japanese empire during WWII. They, who instructed the suicide pilots (Kamikaze). I do not condemn all Buddhists, but even Buddhism has its sorts of pseudo-saints. They are so many Buddhist "denominations", and many of them seem to be theistic. Some of the denominations can be considered as religious (since they are also mixed with local religions, i.e. animism, ancestor worship).
someThinkingApe 7 months ago
The sad truth is: To be elected in high office in the US, you have to be a believer. Obama knew this, Palin knew this, and Sam Harris knows this. So, for the time being, the relevant variable then becomes will the candidate let their faith compromise their judgement. What Penn doesn't seem to be seeing here is that Obama has demonstrated a faculty for intellect and even wrote in his book: "Reason over passion, temperance over both."
Sarah Palin doesn't even know the definition of temperance.
heartion 1 year ago
I think the reason Palin and Obama said it and Biden and McCain didn't is because Obama and Palin are newcomers and therefore they have to prove their religious to the public. I honestly think that known politicians like Biden and McCain are assumed to be religious. Besides that though, the fact alone that Obama acknowledges non-belief as an equal belief status and I couldn't imagine Palin doing it says a lot I think. Obama's positions and actions show a very minimal amount of belief.
LanceDirk 1 year ago
Fishbein and many others have shown that people will not cop to things they know will put them in a bad light. Most of the self-report measures used by researchers to estimate the number of atheists in America are B.S. because of this fact. A recent PEW survey shows that even Christian Fundies would elect a gay person to office before they would an atheist. So the best we can hope for at this point is for politicians to give those of us who know what to look for a sign. Obama has done that.
patwolfie 1 year ago
The problem is that for any politician to be elected dog-catcher he has to profess a Christian religion. This despite the fact that the Constitution expressly forbids any religious test for public office. Obama's speech on religion, easily found here on YouTube, strongly suggests that he may well be an atheist in his heart of hearts, whereas Palin's comments give no such impression.
patwolfie 1 year ago
Oh the Jainism style, it has everyone as reborn after death as a God. It's like equal distribution of God-like power, it's like Communism is on the other side, Hell only.
dubya3cdotcom 1 year ago
Of course heathenism without God but with an after life or Jainism.
He is totally right (Penn), Hillary Clinton lead the senate Prayer meetings.
Alan Keyes never thanked a Priest or had one as a campaigner. But Obama had his Pastor and thanked him winning the Senate.
dubya3cdotcom 1 year ago
The only real scientist (rather than a Zoologist and an Agitator like Hitchens), M.Dr. Sam Harris is a Neurologist. Yeah there is a God in Buddhism, some don't think so but the Book of the Dead and so on has a whole Jacobs ladder and sins labeled regrets. So it is not non or atheological.
dubya3cdotcom 1 year ago
@dubya3cdotcom This is only partially correct. Only certain forms of Buddhism have deities, namely Vajrayana Buddhism.
ConradoThePirate 1 year ago
@ConradoThePirate Actually, that's not correct. Vajrayana does not have a deity in any real sense. The "deity" is really only an analogy. Vajrayana Buddhists meditate on the nature of Buddha himself, but not to worship him as a deity, but instead to understand that there is no difference between yourself and the Buddha... in other words, there is nothing any more or less important than yourself (or anything or anyone else)... which is the opposite of worshiping a "deity" in the "God" sense.
instereovideos 11 months ago
Sarah Palin is the real deal. She got an exorcism. She's dumb as a brick.
hymnofashes 1 year ago
Holy shit, dude, Penn, I love you to death man, but Sam Harris, whew! That is so freakin' cool!! If I got into an argument with Harris I'd probably shit a brick. That guy is so unbelievably smart.
mikerodeman 1 year ago
The fact that Penn and Sam disagree on certain things should not be a problem for secularists or people who believe in reason. A world of reasoning people will be a world of argument. Sam and Penn agree on the most important things, and I respect them both: Penn is a great showman and communicator, and though he obviously has a big ego, he puts in an effort to stay humble. Religion's power is the ability to put people in lock step. Leading atheists is like herding cats.
Vincentaneous 1 year ago
Hindsight is 20/20.. consider this one headline and you'll agree Sam was right:
"Obama repeals stem cell research ban"
bobbelheadedmidget 1 year ago
Perhaps you should see his debates and read the end of faith, Penn. It might dilute your disagreement with Harris on this a bit (albeit, not all of it). You still have point, but i dont think your differences are as stark as you think they are
PaGaNM0nK 1 year ago
Look at the body of evidence, the collected media, that shows both McCain and Sarah Palin and Obama/Biden at worship. What does their historical behavior show? It is one thing to say that you are religious to get elected. It is a ruse. Politicians lie. It is quite another to deny evolution brazenly and publicly. Full disclaimer: I'm a left wing elitist nut. I voted for Obama because there wasn't anyone further to the left to vote for.
jeffdustin 1 year ago
Given the choice between McCain and Obama and their VP choices? How is McCain even a valid choice? I really really hate to say that you're disconnected from reality on something like this but it just seems that you aren't really aware of how fundamentally biased toward religion the American people are. Do you not see the constant attacks on atheism and secularism by the religious right?
inademv 1 year ago
Penn, in as much as I have read the bright Sam Harris and, yes, I subscribe to his outlook on religion and the damage that it does to personal liberty -- I will tell you that your observations with respect to Buddhism are spot on. To me, all religions share a common core of similarity -- they claim "truth" with no "proof". And as to Palin -- the English language should coin the word Palinism to mean buffoonery and/or jackass insanity, take your pick. Stick by your guns, Penn.
TheTonylearner 1 year ago
Oh come one man. Don't hate the player, hate the.... aw fuck it.
sirchompsalot 1 year ago
My friend emails Sam Harris debating him and I'm so jealous. Sam Harris is the shit! haha I wish I could speak to the man. Southern Cali ftw!
TheBrightEyesatheist 1 year ago
Obama's so called faith that compels him to believe that LGBT deserve less than equal rights. Ironic that a man who studied in great depth the turmoils and tribulations his people, African Americans, faced at the hands of the religious ideals that lead to apartheid and segregation; now uses that same angle of religion to perpetuate the same type of apartheid and legal segregation against LGBT. Funny that the sect of Christianity Obama is a part of supports marriage equality, while he does not.
darkwolfx333 1 year ago
Dear Penn,
The Buddha was a comedian, like you, & a juggler (not quite like you). Unlike those politicians you mention, he never said he believed in God, & he certainly didn't counsel getting guidance from any god, in fact he made fun of the biggest guy of the day, Brahma. If people had to pass on your insightful humor by word of mouth for 2,500 years, would everyone still get the jokes? Don't sell Buddhism short; blow off the dust you find the Buddha was as clear-thinking as you are.
--Star
justalittledust 1 year ago
Why would you hold the camera in the most unflattering angle?
ProtagonistNonTheist 1 year ago
"Obama, what because he's smart?"
Come on, Penn. YES, Because he's smart. It really is that simple.
ChadSmith1452 1 year ago
Dan Dennett for president... or on the other spectrum, Peter Schiff
29flamingos 1 year ago
Hi Penn fans. Penn Says videos have been discontinued, so you won't be seeing any new content on here. You can check out our Profile on our Channel Page for more info. We'll still be checking in, so hope to keep chatting with you all! Thanks!
pennsays 1 year ago
McCain and Palin are the more evil of the two choices, because McCain went to high school with God, and Palin can see God from her front porch.
TheDrunkenAtheist 1 year ago
if you actually watch obama speak on religious issues, he clearly comes across as an atheist despite what his 'official' religious status may be. his christianity is as much a marketing strategy as his church pastor-type speaking style
scruffs7 1 year ago
It's selection bias. Harris makes excuses for his preferred politician. It's ridiculous, you can't have it both ways and Harris should know better.
Penn, you're right again, no one side in politics is entitled to a free pass.
dorbie 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
3:33 you farted!!!
AustinTylerRIP 1 year ago
3:33 you farted!!!!
AustinTylerRIP 1 year ago
That is very cool that you argued with him. And i would say it was an honor for him to.
timmieturner 1 year ago
Yep, that does sound like a double standard. Love the BS series BTW.
He does talk about the stigma of (non)religion as it relates to political success in at least one of the clips I have seen, but I haven't seen the Sarah Palin clip. I think she may have been singled out just based on her unlikable personality.
The other problem would be, if you rebuke all candidates running, who then do you, or anyone you influence vote for?
rynther 1 year ago
you said you're just a bullshit juggler. listening to you speak i'd have to agree with you.
thecuk 1 year ago
What's the name he says between Dawkins and Hitchens?
pennsays 1 year ago
Daniel Dennett. Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennett and Harris are the 4 horsemen.
badhairguy 1 year ago 6
@badhairguy Thank you!
pennsays 1 year ago
@badhairguy Harris is not in the same league as the others and it is clear watching the four horsemen videos.
hotmercedes 1 year ago
@hotmercedes harris seems weaker at first but makes alot of good points towards the end. he is probably second only to hitchens overall.
mittROMNEY666 1 year ago
@badhairguy How does this have so many thumbs up? You said Dennett twice.
ryanp123456 1 month ago
@pennsays (Daniel) Dennett.
bauerdude212 1 year ago
@bauerdude212 Thanks!
pennsays 1 year ago
@bauerdude212 Daniel Dennett is a crazy ol' man.
Sam Harris is a shyster, much in the likeness of Bernie Madoff. Sam runs a 'spiritual ponzi scheme'. He is a man of ignorance, aggressions, and despair.
TAXtheAtheist 1 year ago
You should check out the YouTube video "Barack Obama Versus Religion".
scythiconatron 1 year ago
If I got to choose to have a beer with either Harris or you-it would surely be you, Penn!
ScrapGoldBass 1 year ago
Apparently, by most American's standards, Penn also should be President.
I also agree with you. Penn has stories that would go well with a cigar and a stiff drink.
KruNae 1 year ago
I don't drink beer (can't stand the taste), but I'd have a wine cooler with either. Or both together, that'd be cool. :)
jursamaj 1 year ago
Good Point, Penn!
ScrapGoldBass 1 year ago
Dude Penn,
It can be said Obama can't come out on his doubts regarding religion because the country (USA) is extremely religious. It is simply not a good move politically, it doesn't mean Obama is a liar and shouldn't be trusted...
RHESTA 1 year ago
Yea, seriously. Considering that you can use the word "and" in the wrong context in the US political system (being facetious), but saying you have doubts about religion is political suicide...unfortunately.
bleedtheworld 1 year ago
How do you know Palin isn't going through the motions of demonic exorcism as a PR exercise?
....
Are you serious?
hymnofashes 1 year ago
she maybe serious about it but if another politician sez god stuff you hafta take them at their word too.
adzug 1 year ago
"why not go all the way with your anti-theism."
There are buddhists who are pure atheists. So technically they're "anti-theists." Perhaps you mean "why not be anti-religious?"
claudiuspua 1 year ago 2
when he says anti theist, he means in it the Chris Hitchens sense. He not only thinks there is no god, but thinks that if it were true, it would not be desirable.
JakeJax 1 year ago
penn, dammit... i miss yer vids.
MeestaKeefGirly 2 years ago 3
Penn. Come on brother. Don't dangle off these so-called atheist "leaders'" nutsacks. They are people with opinions, just like you. They're not privy to any information that isn't available to you. It's cool if you dig them as people, but for God's sake (pun intended) don't put them on a pedestal. We've been down that route before, and it didn't work out too well.
sphericalpyramid 2 years ago
@sphericalpyramid Who are you referring to?
pennsays 2 years ago
@pennsays All of them, I guess. You were calling yourself a juggler, and saying you're nowhere near as smart as those guys. I beg to differ. =)
sphericalpyramid 2 years ago
I think he's just being modest... further confirming himself as my hero. heh heh.
MeestaKeefGirly 2 years ago
@MeestaKeefGirly Hopefully! =)
sphericalpyramid 2 years ago
@sphericalpyramid I'm not Penn, actually, I just help out with the comments. Thanks for clarifying, though.
pennsays 2 years ago
When is Penn coming back?
demon515 2 years ago
@demon515 Hopefully by the end of March.
pennsays 2 years ago
Dude,
I know you'd like to live in your ideal World - but in the real World - if an atheist wants to run for President of the good ol' U S of A...
He's got to pretend to be a Christian.
No two ways about it.
It's OUR job to discern the difference.
Trust me - Obama was a better choice than Palin.
hybridamerica 2 years ago
@hybridamerica Trust you? I don't like Palin either but I really honestly don't think it matters who the president is anymore. Wall Street and the Banks own the president. Lobbyist and special interest deliver the message with cold hard cash in the senate and house...the whole left vs. right thing really really needs to be destroyed in the hearts and minds of all of us. it's just over, they're just puppets being held up by a puppet master.
Poonard 2 years ago
@Poonard
I know -
It's sad... Tragic...
But - still...
I'd rather have a liberal-leaning puppet than a right-wing conservative Christian puppet.
hybridamerica 2 years ago
but.....it's not fair!!!! :(
Poonard 2 years ago
@Poonard
I know - right....
If you figure out a plan to make everything straight, out in the open, just, as it should be...
Please let me know.
I'd give my life for that kind of future.
hybridamerica 2 years ago
hey penn I love bullshit watch at least a episode every other day I'm gonna explain this to you about how we know
Obama is a not religious
i cant right now its late and i'm gonna wake people
but om monday
i may be a nobody but i think i can explain it to ya.
- kyo
atheistkyo 2 years ago
I think obama is a closet atheist.
questionsamson 2 years ago
We can only hope he is.
wdgeo 2 years ago 2
@wdgeo His father was.
pennsays 2 years ago
yup, its great that he is willing to lie about a fundamental belief of his, just to get elected. So good to know, that he cares so much more about power, than being honest
That makes me trust Democrats more than Republicans
LordVigeous666999 2 years ago
@LordVigeous666999 haha i see your point man...but don't trust either of them ever. lol
Poonard 2 years ago
You may not have had a real point of view but you made good points. You can't compromise your beliefs or cherrypick what you want to standby and then go about doing something that is against what you say you believe. I mean, 320 years in that church? If he lied about being a christian for political reasons for 20 years does that mean his life, for at least 20 years was a prepared lie to run for president?
AssilemakaMelissa 2 years ago
The point is Obama doesn't stress the religious thing. He mentioned "non believers" in his Inaugural Address. Better a fake religious person, or a less religious person, than a religious nutjob.
TheWiseCommenter 2 years ago 30
@TheWiseCommenter this is true however, i don't think any of these leaders we've seen lately were very religious, honest, or worth a damn either way. Not when they're all cut from the same cloth and told what to do by wall street and the banks that paid for their campaigns to get into office. just my 2
Poonard 2 years ago
@TheWiseCommenter
That was a very wise comment.
TheDrunkenAtheist 1 year ago
@TheWiseCommenter
I see his point though.
Liberals said similar things about Bill Clinton, that he's not really a conservative Christian who believes in the death penalty and an agressive war on drugs with mass incarceration, he just says he does to get elected. But he took all those issues further in actions than the ones who actually believe in them.
charlesvan13 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
obviously u get emails from those guys not caus they like you, but becasue they are using you. they dont like u, believe me...ur just and end to their means..which is to continue establishing this religion as legimate, &to get as many followers as possibleto contribute to the religions goals, & doctrines.
POPE = dawkins
Archbishop = Harris
These guys rlike the benny hinn of the religion of atheism, dont give a shit about thosewho read their awful books, just about how much money they made
infinitemika 2 years ago
@ infinitemika - What are you talking about? Are you saying that Dawkins and Harris have some devious plans for world domination by cult? Atheism is not a religion, nor does it act as one. Better equip yourself before you set such a claim, Mr. "Atheists_nightmare"
Darkayne 2 years ago
In Obama's book, he talks in depth about his religious journey. He's perhaps the most honest of all the mentioned politicians. It's sad that our society punishes politicians if they aren't overly religious. I think there is one member of the house who is atheist when our populations is composed of 10-15% atheists. Talk about a representative government.
chuckinator0 2 years ago
Can you put it in a nutshell.... Obama's beliefs?
Thanks
nemirn 2 years ago
I think when you look at Obama and you look and Palin you can tell that Obama will actually listen to real people when making decisions while Sarah Palin seems to channel her God through everything she does. She explicitly states many times that she thinks the Christian God is guiding her in her actions while Obama seems to just pay lip service so the religious zealots don't get on his ass so much. Plus just saying you're atheist/agnostic is political suicide. I actually think Obama is agnostic.
dietsnapple89 2 years ago
Republicans say that they are for small government but that is comical at best. Many of our asanine laws are routinely defended by the rightwing and were started by the religous movement. The amount of tax money spent on the war on drugs, prostitution, gambling, terrorism is ridiculous. Also, usually its a republican who advocates having the ten commandments display at court houses, prayer at public schools (e.t.c). American gov should be secular. Sorry Penn, republicans are for big gov.
melowar78 2 years ago
Harris is brilliant, and I agree with him the majority of the time, but you nailed it on this one, as did I, (but he didn't return my email). You're exactly right, everything he nailed Palin on, Obama is guilty of too, explicitly, plus Obama is a radical progressive and our liberties are now at serious risk IMO.
Thanks Penn,
Serpent
Libertarian Atheist
Serpent257 2 years ago 2
Um... Obama is a "radical progressive"?
That's fucking stupid. Obama is as centrist as you can get. If he was progressive, he wouldn't be bending over backwards to maintain our privately controlled health care (and yes he is doing that despite retards accusing him of "socialism"), he wouldn't be against legalizing marijuana, he wouldn't be against gay equality...
Sorry but most people who identify themselves as "libertarians" demonstrate to me that they have a very loose grasp on reality.
Eshto 2 years ago
Amen Penn, People should say what they mean come hell or High water, Enough Playing Tennis when it comes to the Presidency. And this message is from myself a absolute Fundamental 6000 year old earth creationist able to scientifically defend my faith after the order of Isaac Newton. Preach!!!!
unityallusa 2 years ago
If you think the earth is 6000 years old then you are a fucking idiot.
Go back to kindergarten and start over.
Eshto 2 years ago 42
well darn I must be one of those my friend...Though I do know evidence for both sides pretty much all of it...we can debate but dont call me a fing idiot I am actually very smart and I would like an actual discussion as to how the world is not 6 thousand yrs old and i will defend my case the 6000 yr old what u will call retard theory
sk8terjedi 2 years ago
Read a geology book.
chuckinator0 2 years ago
@Eshto Funny how you Atheists do nothing but talk shit. That's all I ever hear from you, whining and shit talking.
ebeatworld 1 year ago
@ebeatworld As opposed to shit talking, terrorizing and slaughtering of innocent people that believers are fond of doing?
kossmikham 1 year ago
@kossmikham Oh really? Are you talking about Stalin, Mao, Pot, etc? You're right. It's always the Christians who are killing millions of people. Atheists have a terrific track record. I'm just sick of hearing on the news about devout Christians going around and murdering innocent people. Damn those missionaries in Burma and Africa who are helping the poverty stricken with clothes, food, and shelter. We just need to get rid of them. Let's send them to Siberia.
ebeatworld 1 year ago
@ebeatworld Perhaps disturbed people are just crazy regardless if they are religious or not. The problem is that we can call people like Stalin evil but the christian can always hide behind god. We just need to look past all of it and say, "Hey, look at those fucking crazy people"
BrainInSkull 1 year ago
@Eshto Funny how you Atheists do nothing but talk shit. That's all I ever hear from you, whining and shit talking.
ebeatworld 1 year ago
Who's a neurosurgeon?
Sam Harris is a graduate student in neuroscience
meatballjoint 2 years ago
Sam Harris has lost me. I've been skeptical of his leanings for awhile now... I'll stick with Hitchens. Harris is a dualist and only practices Pragmatism when it suits his political interest. Warranted assertion is not selfishness, as many see Pragmatism. Harris is a not a religious nut, rather a spiritualist nut. He attracts what I call "educated new-age leftist atheists". That is all.
BARCACROSSESTHEALPS 2 years ago
Dude, do you need some flea powder or something? All that scratching is soooooo unattractive.
octomelt 2 years ago
You know, Penn, you and I are on the same page on just about everything. Everything except your obsession with atheism. Atheism, if you haven't noticed, is becoming a pseudo-religion with all the scary trappings of fundamentalism. No longer does it mean one is irreligious. If you're so hip to the Bill of Rights, why deny the indispensable portion of "freedom of religion?" Thanks. BTW, I'm non-religious. So don't go getting any crazy notions that I'm rooting for my own team. It's about freedom.
hyroglyphx 2 years ago
hey Penn, I think it's about the level of "conviction" towards their belief. Obama (not my pick of the week either) doesn't belong to a cult that "speaks in tongues", so the ideology of HIS belief system is more mainstream, therefore less "threatening" to mainstream America. Yes, he's a sinner if he allows 1 soldier to die in war. He isn't after perfection as much as Palin. We fear Palin because we doubt she will justify her sins as casually as Obama. RELIGION sucks. We know it & they know it.
VimisiDigitalMedia 2 years ago
I don't always agree with Penn, but I respect that he thinks these things through and is very honest with his answers. He is also a pretty smart dude, IMO
I didn't so much care that Palin was religious, but she is a whack job. Obama's preacher may have been a whackjob, but so far Obama hasn't shown that he is.
Cayvmann 2 years ago
Don't sell yourself short Penn. Just because Harris is smart, and there's no doubt he is, doesn't mean he can't be wrong. I am actually surprised how intellectually dishonest Harris was in this discussion on Palin and Obama. Your view is much more genuine.
QuestionChrist 2 years ago
Obama's pastor is a whack job - no arguments there. However, Obama himself religious? Highly HIGHLY unlikely. I'm 100% convinced is an atheist. No openly atheistic candidate in this country can dream to stand a chance at the oval office, so of course he has to say he's a Christian.
wakeupfist 2 years ago
penn says BULLSHIT AHHHHHHHHH
neoarcadezr 2 years ago
The proof is in the policy and action. Not saying we can pin this on either of them with certainty, but it rings true for me.
But I have to agree with you that this all feels like we're "rooting for" someone for essentially lying to the majority of the population. It doesn't feel right. But the question is always the disappointing "which is the lesser evil?". And that's just sad.
gotilk 2 years ago
Everybody says theyre religious, few really allow it to affect their decision making...especially politicians. Penn, everyone knows who you are, no one knows who the fuck Sam Harris is.
Raurex 2 years ago
lol?
LordTyrannus 2 years ago
Sam Harris is a pretty smart guy. I enjoy both of your styles when it comes to religion, but when arguing politics in any sense, someone will always get butt hurt haha.
kingaustin24 2 years ago
He's more than a "pretty smart guy" He's a neurosurgeon :)
deelnyc 2 years ago
No! You win Penn! Harris is great on religion, not so great on politics....
Davebierman 2 years ago
Penn. Have you read Sam's books yet? He explains exactly what he means by spirituality. And just curious, if you wanted to learn how to meditate, wouldn't the best person to teach you be a Buddhist monk perhaps? That doesn't mean there is any truth to Buddhism, but they've discovered one or two things about the brain that might be interesting. It doesn't mean reincarnation is true. Even atheists can cherrypick.
ashleylovesdaddy 2 years ago
I'd recommend Harris's book. All he says about Buddhism is that there are parts that can be extracted from the religion, and that the religion itself is unnecessary.
redchango 2 years ago
The same can be said for most any religion. He's a 'spiritual atheist', which I do not understand. I just think the 'atheist' part is bad enough, being a major inference and all, but 'spiritual atheist'? That's confusing.
Mevi814 2 years ago
it's not confusing. no one can deny that spiritual experiences happen. we can have spiritual experiences without believing irrational things.
redchango 2 years ago
One, I'm not talking about religion, and I'm certainly not talking about something irrational.
Mevi814 2 years ago
What do you mean? Perhaps I'm not understanding what you're suggesting.
redchango 2 years ago
You said it Penn; Obama doesn't believe he's just a slick ass politician. Otherwise he's quite the nutjob.
bolsonwjls 2 years ago
The crux is belief. Whether you believe or disbelieve, the issue at hand is humankind's ability to understand, distill and sanctify truth. I don't know of any fundamentalist who believes the sun rotates around the earth nor that the earth is flat. Fact memes will eventually resolve the majority of our belief conflicts...give it time.
newtonslogic 2 years ago
About Obama being religious: Tell me this: Could Obama POSSIBLY get elected without claiming a Christian faith? I doubt it; so Obama HAS to say he is Christian, so screw his stupid pastor!
Have you ever sat with a religious family at say dinner? You can REALLY TELL if they are religious in many ways. They may say grace over their food. When they say "God help us," or "praise the Lord," you can TELL they MEAN IT LITERALLY. Some people say these things CASUALLY, like a figure of speech.
capoman1 2 years ago
So we are smart enough to discern SOMEWHAT how religious, or how LITERAL their religious beliefs are.
I get the sense that since Obama seems to be VERY INTELLIGENT, and that he is RELATED TO MUSLIMS (at least his father or step-father), and was partially RAISED OR TRAINED in Muslim faith, that Obama has a tolerant view of ALL RELIGIONS; and he is smart enough to see that whether you are Muslim, Christian, Buddhist..., that we are all just normal people.
capoman1 2 years ago
Now in contrast, examine politicians that praise God when speaking of how good our country is; or claim God or Jesus as a source of direction for their policies; Bush even claims that God's view is part of his FOREIGN POLICY!!!
Now that is scary. But is also evidence that someone is a TRUE BELIEVER, not just CLAIMING FAITH for ELECTION PURPOSES! You be the judge, use your good judgment of whether Obama is religious; we are smart people; look past the news, critics, and celebs!
capoman1 2 years ago
penn is the best! great job!!!
johnnysainz 2 years ago
yeha sam harris is a fuckin word smith so the fact that u even tried is honorable
keggerous 2 years ago
I never jumped onto the bash Palin bandwagon, Okay I get it she's not smart, I don't care. It's the ones in charge that are smart I'm worried about.
AkridDebates 2 years ago
We know Sarah Palin wasn't faking it because she wasn't smart enough to do it. haha.
TFichVe 2 years ago
the thing with Obama is that he would be the first to happily allow scientific research to trump religious biggetry when it comes to policy decisions, stem cell research etc. So in terms of policies Obama is not so religious... compared to Palin.. I think that's clear. Penn and Sam are both right. I love how when smart people debate they are both right. So refreshing, something to take from both. A+
joob44 2 years ago
I just see Obama talking about religion and I hear a difference in his voice like "ok I gotta play this game for a minute"..... I dunno...and he is more "accepting" of secularism or Non-believers..... While McCain/Palin are unapologetic about their views on God and they act 100% correct on them.
cubbyguy1 2 years ago 3
penn is right on this one, harris should know that he is just assuming that obama isn't religious, even though it is clear he is. Still waiting for the change Mr. president.
iloveusa8baby 2 years ago 3
We gave Bush 8 years to screw things up, give Obama more then 6 months.
refuckulate420 2 years ago 4
So why does it mean automatically he's not so much religious and just playing the part for the voters...instead of what is probably more likely which is hes afraid to admit he does truly believe, because he wouldnt have gotten the liberal support that won him the election..Im not an obama supporter in the least..and am as athiest as the next unbeliever..but it frustrates me that Sam Harris is so infatuated with having govt control us he cant even admit he supports a believer
GodHatesMars 2 years ago
I think people are forgetting the fact that Obama was a member of that church for almost 25 years..so to say he's just pretending to be religious to be president would show foresight second only to nostradamus
GodHatesMars 2 years ago 3
baracks dad is an atheist.
ilovejesuspausenot 2 years ago
Obama, Biden are much less religious than McCain, and McCain is much less religious than Bush. And Bush is much less religious than Palin. Penn, buddy, we can tell this by their written works (in Obama's Case at least) and by their public statements taken IN context. Obama appears much more rational and less religious than Palin.
syqnys 2 years ago
There are acutally people on here saying the same crap. "Obama is most likely lying. I doubt he truly believes that nonsense."
So you all have secret deals with Obama too? Come on. I know people tend to project their own values, hopes, and dreams on politicians, but it's getting pathetic.
Either he's a believer (vomit) or he's a liar to placate those backwater rubes (yuck).
I don't want either one of those people running anything, and you shouldn't either.
neestle 2 years ago
Life is full of choices involving choosing a lesser evil. To be so stubborn is admirable in some fashion, but largely counter-intuitive to progress.
He's an educated man, and critical thinking is anathema to religion.
NomadicReprobate 2 years ago
wow, i feel slow for just now catching this but is the title "penn says" supposed to be a pun? is it a play on the word "pensée?"
woahzombies 2 years ago
Hey, Penn, next time you talk to Sam, ask him if he is the bastard spawn of Ben Stiller and Eric Melendez.
seans10 2 years ago 2
Yes, Obama is most likely lying. The guy reasoned early on, correctly, unfortunately, that he could never obtain high national office in the US unless he professed belief in God. I doubt he truly believes that nonsense either.
seans10 2 years ago
"it's*"
RelievesChappedLips2 2 years ago
hey bud, notice how I said "your hair is gross." His particular hair IS quite gross in my opinion. Try reading more accurately next time pal, huh?
By the way, do you have a hair fetish or something? so sensitive, geez.
RelievesChappedLips2 2 years ago
You ca just tell.
McLarenF1God 2 years ago
stop touching your hair it's gross. Why don't you just cut it?
RelievesChappedLips2 2 years ago
BECAUSE HAIR IS SO GROSS TO TOUCH OMG. The fuck is wrong with you when you think that HAIR is gross? Enjoy your waxings.
ShadowWolf346 2 years ago
I think that Sam understands that change happens gradually. Obama does and says what he has to, so he can make those changes. Think of it as flying under the radar of a government that has become far too religious for our own good.
geniusintheory 2 years ago
geniusintheory, Can you address the double standard?
BloakinCloak 2 years ago
No, I wish it didn't exist. However, its a step in the right direction. Obama made a bold move acknowledging non-believers as citizens in a government that, since Reagan, has been dominated by Christian agendas. In that arena you have to tread lightly or you risk being cast out. Which on principle might seem fine but its more effective to change something from the inside.
geniusintheory 2 years ago
ha! I want my blogs to get the Sony logo too!
qtzlctl2012 2 years ago
Penn the beauty of this is that both of you are right from a certain point of view. And the only way you'll ever know is if they were honest and did not feel the weight of religion as an issue for them to be elected.
dwbear7 2 years ago
But Sam kinda steps on his own toes with that one because if its true and Obama really is just putting on a show then all that he is doing is giving legitimacy to the religious rather than marginalizing them.... So there is a little bit of conflict in his argument when comparing it to his well known admonishment of religious moderates. So as a mediator I'd call it a draw‽
pomeroy82 2 years ago
I love Sam Harris! I think there is a big difference between what Obama says and Palin though.. the rhetoric tone and policy paths would be the biggest differences. I do have a big problem though with Sam's claim or argument about Obama.. I understand on one hand that if he isn't religious he'd definitely have to pretend in order to get elected.
pomeroy82 2 years ago 2
Obama doesn't believe in anything. He goes to church to get elected. You can't run for president and be an atheist...not yet. He is too smart to believe in Jesus or any bullshit religion.
daddysquirrel 2 years ago